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Texas: All YFZ children at risk because of common belief system
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The Raven | 3:44 p.m. May 9, 2008
In my opinion, children in modern society are "at risk" because of
what is being put into their minds by Hollywood, the "education
system," Planned Parenthood, and the ACLU. Is there any chance Texas is
going to raid the offices of these organizations and prosecute them for
promoting filth, perversion, relativism, and anything goes?????
G | 3:50 p.m. May 9, 2008
"Texas child welfare attorneys say children were removed from the YFZ Ranch
and should not return there because its residents live as one big family and all
have the same dangerous belief system."
This is where the First Amendment comes to play. Government can ban child abuse but not specific religious teachings.
This is where the First Amendment comes to play. Government can ban child abuse but not specific religious teachings.
Whose belief system? | 5:15 p.m. May 9, 2008
There's a lot about this case I don't fully understand, nor do I
condone the breaking of the law, if that is what has happened. But a statement
like this give me grave concerns about authorities overstepping their bounds:
"child psychiatrist Bruce Perry, who described an "unhealthy"
belief that it's OK to have sex with and marry young women."
These are merely beliefs and current norms. I expect that most people reading this comment will have heard the theory that at the time of Christ, in the Jewish community, it was common for a girl to marry at the young age we are talking about here. Perhaps even Mary, the mother of the Savior, could have given birth to Him at such a young age. Would this say that the Father believes it is "unhealthy" for a teenage young woman to be married and have children?
These are merely beliefs and current norms. I expect that most people reading this comment will have heard the theory that at the time of Christ, in the Jewish community, it was common for a girl to marry at the young age we are talking about here. Perhaps even Mary, the mother of the Savior, could have given birth to Him at such a young age. Would this say that the Father believes it is "unhealthy" for a teenage young woman to be married and have children?
Comments continue below
Observer | 5:22 p.m. May 9, 2008
Let me think. What was it Hillary Clinton said: "It takes a village to
raise a child."
Why are Texas authorities against a village raising a child? And liberal Hillary said it, so it must be so. But I guess it depends on what the village believes!
I thought the First Ammendment was still in effect.
This village of FLDS are not allowed to teach their children their beliefs! Granted the child abuse is a different question, but beliefs, the state has no right to keep children from their mothers because of their beliefs.
Why are Texas authorities against a village raising a child? And liberal Hillary said it, so it must be so. But I guess it depends on what the village believes!
I thought the First Ammendment was still in effect.
This village of FLDS are not allowed to teach their children their beliefs! Granted the child abuse is a different question, but beliefs, the state has no right to keep children from their mothers because of their beliefs.
Bruce | 5:24 p.m. May 9, 2008
"All of the women are called mothers to all of the children in the home,
and the children call each other brothers and sisters," the response
states."
So what's wrong with that?
Catholics call nuns "sister" and priests "father", etc.
Thinking of each other as brothers and sisters might go a long way toward curing a lot of social ills IMHO. Maybe we should all try it.
As an ex-Texan, I have lost all respect for that state's oppressive government and the sheeple that allow it. Texas CPS continues throwing stuff at the wall hoping something will stick.
So what's wrong with that?
Catholics call nuns "sister" and priests "father", etc.
Thinking of each other as brothers and sisters might go a long way toward curing a lot of social ills IMHO. Maybe we should all try it.
As an ex-Texan, I have lost all respect for that state's oppressive government and the sheeple that allow it. Texas CPS continues throwing stuff at the wall hoping something will stick.
one big happy family | 5:32 p.m. May 9, 2008
Call it a commune or a cult or "religion"; the facts are the same;
children raised in unsafe circumstances that guarantee each and every child will
in turn be abused.
No identifiable family unit smaller than the entire group.
All children subject to the whims of one man.
Children brainwashed to accept statutory rape as a normal activity.
Most "wives" having multiple children without any legal husband.
Children with no idea who their actual mother or father are.
The more we learn the worse it gets.
Texas officials should be applauded.
Call it a commune or a cult or "religion"; the facts are the same; children raised in unsafe circumstances that guarantee each and every child will in turn be abused.
No identifiable family unit smaller than the entire group.
All children subject to the whims of one man.
Children brainwashed to accept statutory rape as a normal activity.
Most "wives" having multiple children without any legal husband.
Children with no idea who their actual mother or father are.
The more we learn the worse it gets.
Texas officials should be applauded.
Call it a commune or a cult or "religion"; the facts are the same; children raised in unsafe circumstances that guarantee each and every child will in turn be abused.
to one big happy family | 6:17 p.m. May 9, 2008
Many cultures outside the USA live as one big happy family. They are happy
because they have adult role models who are home instead of babysitters, day
care centers, and teachers who do not care for the child as much as a relative
or close friend would. A lot of children have several moms, stepmom, adopted
mom, etc. There are many women with multiple children by multiple man, who are
unfortunately not involved in bringing the child(ren) up.
Just the thought of someone coming in and removing my children because they do feel threatened by my peculiar believes is criminal. You must not have children or you'd never even come close to calling it justifiable for Texas to rip the children from their homes and mothers. I have no respect for Texas and hope some higher power will finally intervene.
Just the thought of someone coming in and removing my children because they do feel threatened by my peculiar believes is criminal. You must not have children or you'd never even come close to calling it justifiable for Texas to rip the children from their homes and mothers. I have no respect for Texas and hope some higher power will finally intervene.
Thomas | 6:25 p.m. May 9, 2008
All the women see themselves as mothers to all ths children. All the chidren
look uopn themselves as brothers and sisters. That is so evil. CPS, are you
serious? Call a halt to this legalized kidnapping and return the children
Matthew | 6:50 p.m. May 9, 2008
At last they've come clean. This is all about religion. Apparently they
don't teach anything about the US Constitution in the Texas Public School
System.
Down with the Texas Tyrants!
Down with the Texas Tyrants!
one big happy family redux | 6:50 p.m. May 9, 2008
These "mothers" groomed their daughters to be sexual abuse victims
then turned them over to that fate. When everyone is your mother no one is. The
children were not ripped from their "home" because CPS felt threatened
by FLDS beliefs, but because those beliefs guaranteed that every child in FLDS
would eventually be abused. A higher power HAS intervened, CPS was an instrument
of salvation for FLDS victim/children.
Tom | 7:04 p.m. May 9, 2008
Yikes, Texas is sounding a bit fascist these days.
Amazed | 7:17 p.m. May 9, 2008
They aren't even trying to pretend it's not about religion. They know
children can't be taken because of a belief system. It's actions-not
beliefs.
As for the opportunity to cross examine - in no way did each parent get that opportunity. Let's say mother with a 13 year old girl was planning to leave if her daughter was ever order to marry under 18, but just did not want to announce that fact. Why should she have her children taken away?
Does anyone know how long it will take to get to Federal Court? Since Texas judges are elected, they will do anything, even if it is unconstitutional, to make these simple minded Texas people happy.
As for the opportunity to cross examine - in no way did each parent get that opportunity. Let's say mother with a 13 year old girl was planning to leave if her daughter was ever order to marry under 18, but just did not want to announce that fact. Why should she have her children taken away?
Does anyone know how long it will take to get to Federal Court? Since Texas judges are elected, they will do anything, even if it is unconstitutional, to make these simple minded Texas people happy.
Tom | 7:27 p.m. May 9, 2008
To: The Raven
I really don't think it's fair to blame them for anything in this case. They have been rather supportive of the FLDS during this ordeal.
I really don't think it's fair to blame them for anything in this case. They have been rather supportive of the FLDS during this ordeal.
Tom | 7:29 p.m. May 9, 2008
I was referring to the ACLU as the ones who have been supportive of the FLDS
during this ordeal. Sorry for my lack of cognition tonight.
Hal | 7:40 p.m. May 9, 2008
Ignorant and selfish people should not be allowed to redefine familial
relationships as the polygamists in Texas and the news media seems bent on
doing. Older men should not have dictatorial control of others and young girls
and boys as well as their mothers should not go like sheep to the slaughter for
a selfish man's desire. We the public are also being manipulated through
this mess they have created.
asd | 7:52 p.m. May 9, 2008
During the hearing,
attorneys for parents and children said they had certified birth certificates, social security numbers, Texas drivers licenses and even tax returns that could be used ....to validate names and ages.
But Voss said the documents would not be acceptable, suggesting some certificates might be forged.
And Judge Barbara Walther agreed.
"How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?" the judge asked
attorneys for parents and children said they had certified birth certificates, social security numbers, Texas drivers licenses and even tax returns that could be used ....to validate names and ages.
But Voss said the documents would not be acceptable, suggesting some certificates might be forged.
And Judge Barbara Walther agreed.
"How do you know, in today's world of identity theft, a birth certificate is proof of who they are?" the judge asked
Brooke | 8:34 p.m. May 9, 2008
This is all about religion. In my church, Not FLDS, we call each other brother
and sister. We behave as one happy family. Removing the children was done
illegally under the color of the law with machine guns and badges. I would hope
that common sense appeals court judges will honor our Constitution and tell
Texas they can't mess with the 1st Amendment!!! There is no child abuse,
only a hoax phone call. Judge Barbara Walther has a hidden religious agenda to
destroy this faith.
Thomas | 8:38 p.m. May 9, 2008
Under the landmark U.S. Supreme Court case of Reynolds v. U.S. (which also
focused on polygamy), government can regulate people's actions even if
they're rooted in religious belief, but it can't regulate religious
belief itself.
Texas looks like it's pushing the envelope of this 100+ year old precedent. It's making a case that it can penalize people, by taking away their children, based specifically on what they believe -- not on anything they've actually done.
Texas looks like it's pushing the envelope of this 100+ year old precedent. It's making a case that it can penalize people, by taking away their children, based specifically on what they believe -- not on anything they've actually done.
Re - Brooke | 8:43 p.m. May 9, 2008
Brooke - wow - you couldn't be more wrong... these kids were having their
rights abused every day and you think thats ok. I don't even know what to
say, except that if you cared about the kids (instead of the parents) then you
would be on Texas' side... It's too bad so many posters are all
worried about the parents rights but care nothing about the rights of those kids
confined behind those walls and guardtower for life, never getting to fulfill
their dreams and ambitions. So sad... Free the kids - give them a life that
they choose rather than their parents. Stop the brainwashing.
RE: Re- Brooke | 8:58 p.m. May 9, 2008
"Free the kids - give them a life that they choose rather than their
parents. Stop the brainwashing."
Then this applies to every kid in every school in the country. Kids only go to school because someone says they must. Ask any kid why they go to school!!
In inner city school, kids make the choice to go do something other than school every day.
Free the kids, what an absurd statement!! Come free me, I don't want to go to work anymore!! My parents made me go to work 50 years ago!!
Then this applies to every kid in every school in the country. Kids only go to school because someone says they must. Ask any kid why they go to school!!
In inner city school, kids make the choice to go do something other than school every day.
Free the kids, what an absurd statement!! Come free me, I don't want to go to work anymore!! My parents made me go to work 50 years ago!!
J-man | 9:08 p.m. May 9, 2008
Where is Merril Jessop? Isn't he in charge of the FLDS now? Is he
standing tall or is he laying low so he doesn't have to provide a DNA
sample?
PHXCOP | 9:09 p.m. May 9, 2008
I hope Judge Walther and others like her in this country don't one day
decide that my religious beliefs are "abusive." I mean, my four year
old sings "Follow the Prophet" in Primary. We have a picture of the
First Presidency on our wall. We read scriptures and our church encourages all
male members to serve missions. We teach ideas in our home that our bodies are
sacred and that we shouldn't abuse our procreative powers outside the bonds
of marriage. If you think its beyond imagineable that CPS won't be
knocking on my door in the future, think again. We have just allowed this to
happen in Texas, and for those of you who want to call me an apologist for
polygamists think again. I am worried about who defines "abusive belief
system." And for those of you who want to call me an alarmist, this same
thing happened in Nazi Germany. If you caricaturize, belittle and denegrate a
group to the point that nobody cares about them, or what the government does to
them we are well on the way towards concentration camps my friends.
Conflicting | 9:24 p.m. May 9, 2008
This entire incident causes conflict.
I am conflicted, because it does show how intrusive government can be.
However, I am also conflicted because of the pattern of abuse in this community. My issue is not polygamy, but the age of the brides themselves. We no longer live in a society where it is acceptable to marry at 12 nor should we strive to be that society.
The fact that none of these women see anything wrong with marrying off their 14-16 year old daughters to much older men, concerns me. The fact that many of these women were once in this situation or have witnessed it so many times that they are numb to it, concerns me.
The thought that two of my daughters, young teenagers, would be considered ready to be wives(sexually active with older men who rotate themselves through other women) sickens me. Many of them are not even legally married.
I am conflicted, but I do believe the government is acting in the best interest of these children. The fact that parents would not initally offer up parental information and were switching nursing children around...well it speaks louder than all their tears. Apparently...they have something to hide.
I am conflicted, because it does show how intrusive government can be.
However, I am also conflicted because of the pattern of abuse in this community. My issue is not polygamy, but the age of the brides themselves. We no longer live in a society where it is acceptable to marry at 12 nor should we strive to be that society.
The fact that none of these women see anything wrong with marrying off their 14-16 year old daughters to much older men, concerns me. The fact that many of these women were once in this situation or have witnessed it so many times that they are numb to it, concerns me.
The thought that two of my daughters, young teenagers, would be considered ready to be wives(sexually active with older men who rotate themselves through other women) sickens me. Many of them are not even legally married.
I am conflicted, but I do believe the government is acting in the best interest of these children. The fact that parents would not initally offer up parental information and were switching nursing children around...well it speaks louder than all their tears. Apparently...they have something to hide.
Brooke Wow Comment | 9:24 p.m. May 9, 2008
As a parent of 7 children, Only 1 spouse, I have a right to raise my children in
my own belief system. They are my children. They are not the property of any
government or government belief system. You are reacting like we live in a
"Peeping Tom" society where parents need to be monitored as to what
religious beliefs are taught. Lets protect our Constitution from those who want
to take all religious beliefs from our great nation.
RE: PHXCOP | 9:31 p.m. May 9, 2008
Sorry too late. We already have concentration camps.Texas runs a good one under
the guise of helping children.
Our government keeps one off-shore in Guantanamo Cuba and a few hidden ones in other European locations.
We use tortures we found horrible when they were used on our soldiers.
We even hid quite a few Nazi's after the war right here in the U.S. So you want to know "Who defines abusive belief systems"?? Right now, the world considers our government to be an abusive belief system.
The absolute worst part is that we turn a blind eye to all this stuff believing it won't happen to me.
Our government keeps one off-shore in Guantanamo Cuba and a few hidden ones in other European locations.
We use tortures we found horrible when they were used on our soldiers.
We even hid quite a few Nazi's after the war right here in the U.S. So you want to know "Who defines abusive belief systems"?? Right now, the world considers our government to be an abusive belief system.
The absolute worst part is that we turn a blind eye to all this stuff believing it won't happen to me.
Re: PHXCOP | 9:33 p.m. May 9, 2008
Amen to that!! This act by Texas can not be allowed to stand or we are inviting
the destruction of OUR FREEDOMS and LIBERTIES to worship GOD.
Voice of Reason | 10:13 p.m. May 9, 2008
I cannot believe I am reading many of these posts. Many of you are condemning
Texas because people should be punished for "actions, not beliefs".
What do you think it is when 31 of all 53 girls aged 14-17 have been or are pregnant!? Good Lord, how is that not an ACTION!?
These polygamists lost custody of their children because they were SEXUALLY ABUSING their children on an unprecedented scale - NOT "because of their beliefs."
What do you think it is when 31 of all 53 girls aged 14-17 have been or are pregnant!? Good Lord, how is that not an ACTION!?
These polygamists lost custody of their children because they were SEXUALLY ABUSING their children on an unprecedented scale - NOT "because of their beliefs."
KG | 10:28 p.m. May 9, 2008
From the sound of most of these posts, it seems that the mothers involved in
this cult have time on their hands and are writing to the news.
It is the responsiblity of EVERY adult person on this earth to protect our children - abuse of this type cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.
These parents do not own these kids - they are given the privilege of raising them from their Father in Heaven and are acountable for the abuse they perpetrated agains them.
If one of these kids was given the opportunity to CHOOSE their spouse it may be different - but these kids "KIDS" are being forced into these marriages - no teen would choose a man three times her age under normal circumstances. Freedom of choice is a God Given right and these children have had their rights taken away. We don't even like our children to date until they are 16 let alone marry.
My heart goes out to these kids and to the damage that has been done to them in the name of religion.
Thank goodness the authorities in Texas finally stepped in - my question, why did it take so long?
It is the responsiblity of EVERY adult person on this earth to protect our children - abuse of this type cannot be tolerated under any circumstances.
These parents do not own these kids - they are given the privilege of raising them from their Father in Heaven and are acountable for the abuse they perpetrated agains them.
If one of these kids was given the opportunity to CHOOSE their spouse it may be different - but these kids "KIDS" are being forced into these marriages - no teen would choose a man three times her age under normal circumstances. Freedom of choice is a God Given right and these children have had their rights taken away. We don't even like our children to date until they are 16 let alone marry.
My heart goes out to these kids and to the damage that has been done to them in the name of religion.
Thank goodness the authorities in Texas finally stepped in - my question, why did it take so long?
Dangerous belief system??? | 10:42 p.m. May 9, 2008
"Dangerous belief system"?? When a government agency starts to judge
what you can or cant believe in then we are all in trouble!!! Who has the right
to judge what belief system we teach our children??? If that were the case each
religion would judge the other as unsuitable. This is wrong!!!
Re. KG | 10:54 p.m. May 9, 2008
Thanks for a voice of reason, KG. For awhile there I thought the people posting
on this site were confusing the LDS religion with FLDS child abuse. And,
let's be realistic, this FLDS group has evolved from a religion into a cult
of brainwashed victims and predators. The state of Texas didn't rush in to
break up a religion, they came in to stop physical, psychological and sexual
abuse.
Do you really want the authorities to leave them alone, and pretend this is a normal, healthy lifestyle? I just hope it isn't too late for these children.
Do you really want the authorities to leave them alone, and pretend this is a normal, healthy lifestyle? I just hope it isn't too late for these children.
31 of 53 | 11:02 p.m. May 9, 2008
They changed the status of 26 women to be minors. How did they determine they
were underage? "They don't look it"
So what would you do if the state said you can stay with your children if you go along with our claim, or you can prove you are older and have your children ripped from your arms?
You who defend this gestapo like action by the state of Texas should be ashamed of yourselves.
So what would you do if the state said you can stay with your children if you go along with our claim, or you can prove you are older and have your children ripped from your arms?
You who defend this gestapo like action by the state of Texas should be ashamed of yourselves.
it seems to me.... | 11:05 p.m. May 9, 2008
It seems to me that hardly anyone making comments has been exposed to abuse. Are
you saying all pedophiles can claim religious immunity to the law? Or perhaps
that if it is your religious belief that you sacrifice your children that is
okay? Is it okay for all the young men who may attract a young
woman�s attention be dropped off on the side of a deserted
road? This case is not about a religion! It is a case about child abuse. What
consenting adults do with their lives is their business, but when it comes to
innocent children we as a society have an obligation to protect them. If it was
just a matter of all living in one house or being a healthy family unit the
judge would have thrown it out. Living in Utah I know that these charges are
real. I�m not sure it has been handled correctly. I think
the children should be placed with relatives outside the communities where
available. But, without birth certificates and/or the families involved
cooperating with the state how can they know who that might be? So if you
don't have the facts how can you judge the states actions?
Ashamed? | 11:29 p.m. May 9, 2008
It's the FLDSers here that should be ashamed. errrr, that is only if Uncle
Warren says ... errrr, I guess he doesn't.
L | 11:33 p.m. May 9, 2008
Some said that all were beholden to what one man says ... As I grew up I was
taught that the Pope was perfect and I was bound to do everything he said or I
would go to H....
Seems to me that there some other societies who hold their leader in high esteme as well.
I think the same person said that many children have no idea who their actual Mother or Father are ... I'm not sure but I'll bet I could find that many more around the US in addition I'll bet I could find quite a few Mothers that don't know who the Fathers are ans some that don't know who or where their kids are (and some don't care!!).
One-quarter of the boys are being taught it is OK to have sex with young girls, I believe that was just about the feeling in my school and lots were doing it. I guess it was a good thing I didn't caught up in guilt by association.
While I do not support any illegal actions in the FLDS, Catholic, Muslim or other communities, I do not support any actions by government which might no be legal!!!
Seems to me that there some other societies who hold their leader in high esteme as well.
I think the same person said that many children have no idea who their actual Mother or Father are ... I'm not sure but I'll bet I could find that many more around the US in addition I'll bet I could find quite a few Mothers that don't know who the Fathers are ans some that don't know who or where their kids are (and some don't care!!).
One-quarter of the boys are being taught it is OK to have sex with young girls, I believe that was just about the feeling in my school and lots were doing it. I guess it was a good thing I didn't caught up in guilt by association.
While I do not support any illegal actions in the FLDS, Catholic, Muslim or other communities, I do not support any actions by government which might no be legal!!!
Worried | 11:34 p.m. May 9, 2008
From the article:
"'Part of the danger to the boys is that their belief system requires that they follow the prophet,' it also stated."
Wow. That should make every LDS person shiver. And since you could easily swap "prophet" for any church's leader, for example, the Pope, every church has reason to be worried.
"'Part of the danger to the boys is that their belief system requires that they follow the prophet,' it also stated."
Wow. That should make every LDS person shiver. And since you could easily swap "prophet" for any church's leader, for example, the Pope, every church has reason to be worried.
Where does the LDS Church stand | 11:37 p.m. May 9, 2008
"Part of the danger to the boys is that their belief system requires that
they follow the prophet," it also stated.
Hmmmm, let's hope that the missionaries from the LDS Church do not knock on the door of the good judge in Texas!
Remove the abusers, but don't traumatize the children by allowing government perpetration of abuse by removing the children! Good golly, it will take years of intense therapy to help these little ones out as it now stands!
Hmmmm, let's hope that the missionaries from the LDS Church do not knock on the door of the good judge in Texas!
Remove the abusers, but don't traumatize the children by allowing government perpetration of abuse by removing the children! Good golly, it will take years of intense therapy to help these little ones out as it now stands!
To: 31 of 53 | 11:43 p.m. May 9, 2008
... and why do defend the destructive practices of the FLDS cult?
For their own good? | 11:44 p.m. May 9, 2008
Yes, it was reasoned that the Native American Children had to be removed from
their mothers "for their own good". Were they grateful for being
"saved"? The Australian Aborigines? Look up "Vivid memories of a
stolen generation" Sorry. These women and children are VICTIMS.It will
NEVER be made up to these children. HOW MANY OF THESE GIRLS REALLY WANTED TO BE
MARRIED TO SOME OLD MAN OR BE A FOURTH WIFE? Do you really think HER mother had
the power to save her from such a marriage? It wasn't for THEIR salvation!
Now double the punishment to the under 18 mother, lets further punish her
because she became a mother so young? Think she is too young to love and miss
her little ones? We GIVE Welfare to young mothers who aren't FLDS. We
don't take their kids because they're teenagers who got pregnant in or
out of wedlock. Good Lord! SHAME on TEXAS JUDGE & CPS (who I might add has
repeatedly failed countless other children placed in their care for good
reason!)It is a DISGRACE TO THE STATE OF TEXAS & to our country.We ought to
be asking how can we help these women & children!
Terri Dance Salisbury Missouri | 11:45 p.m. May 9, 2008
Belief system dangerous, eh? Flora Amussen Benson, wife of beloved Ezra Taft
Benson was born to her father's polygamous wife when he was over 70 years
old!!!! She was the last baby of a large family to her mom and dad and I think
her mom was about 35 when widowed!!! I guess they are lucky a bunch of you
posters weren't around or she'd have been taken away!!! as no one in
their right mind would have let her mom marry her 40 ish year older dad!! I
suppose her mom would have been taken from the grandparents for that matter, as
well. Probably another sister too as I think Flora's aunt was married to
her dad, too.
It's not ages or age differences that matter here at all, it is whether the behavior is authorized by God and the law of the land. FLDS are not MORMONS, they are apostates as are the rest of sectarian world but as apostates to more of the truth they will cause more grief to real truth as has always been the case.
It's not ages or age differences that matter here at all, it is whether the behavior is authorized by God and the law of the land. FLDS are not MORMONS, they are apostates as are the rest of sectarian world but as apostates to more of the truth they will cause more grief to real truth as has always been the case.
Gabriella in MO | 11:59 p.m. May 9, 2008
Why aren't you posting people's comments which are on topic, non
offensive and so forth? I know the moderator has failed to post a least 3 of my
MOM--Terri Dance of Salisbury, MO comments which should have been posted by the
standards stated. What is going on with the moderator?
Gal50 | 12:03 a.m. May 10, 2008
Parts of this appeal are very amateurish. There is no way CPS can take over the
compound and order the men to leave. If CPS could, they would have had to order
the women to leave as well. CPS needs the children in facilities that it
controls.
There were far too many deceptive tactics for CPS to be able to match children with adults and therefore, the FLDS women could not establish standing in the court with regard to specific children. Therefore, the children could not be returned, even if there had been no abuse. Additionally, since abuse is perpetuated upon the children at the behest of Jeffs, all children are potential victims.
The law did call for individual hearings within 14 days. This was not possible, so the appeals court has to agree that the district court did the next best thing without violating rights.
Because no FLDS adults could establish standing due to the behavior of many adults and children, a group hearing was the appropriate way of meeting the 14 day deadline. No other outcome would have been possible had individual hearings been conducted and thus, no rights were violated.
There were far too many deceptive tactics for CPS to be able to match children with adults and therefore, the FLDS women could not establish standing in the court with regard to specific children. Therefore, the children could not be returned, even if there had been no abuse. Additionally, since abuse is perpetuated upon the children at the behest of Jeffs, all children are potential victims.
The law did call for individual hearings within 14 days. This was not possible, so the appeals court has to agree that the district court did the next best thing without violating rights.
Because no FLDS adults could establish standing due to the behavior of many adults and children, a group hearing was the appropriate way of meeting the 14 day deadline. No other outcome would have been possible had individual hearings been conducted and thus, no rights were violated.
Voice of Reason | 12:05 a.m. May 10, 2008
Hey 31 of 53,
Well, when the polygamists refuse to give their own ages to make the job easier, then the state was forced to use the best means at their disposal to ascertain their ages. And in this situation of widespread, rampant sexual abuse of children, erring on the side of caution is obligatory. YOU should be ashamed of yourself, "31 of 53," for defending these child abusers.
And to call sexually abusing children a "belief system . . . " that just takes the cake. It really does.
And, 31 of 53, you talk of children being ripped from their mother's arms. Many of these SAME MOTHERS allowed their children to be ripped from their FATHER'S arms for some trivial "apostacy", and allowed themselves to be traded among "faithful" men likes trading chips. They have no moral high ground here.
Well, when the polygamists refuse to give their own ages to make the job easier, then the state was forced to use the best means at their disposal to ascertain their ages. And in this situation of widespread, rampant sexual abuse of children, erring on the side of caution is obligatory. YOU should be ashamed of yourself, "31 of 53," for defending these child abusers.
And to call sexually abusing children a "belief system . . . " that just takes the cake. It really does.
And, 31 of 53, you talk of children being ripped from their mother's arms. Many of these SAME MOTHERS allowed their children to be ripped from their FATHER'S arms for some trivial "apostacy", and allowed themselves to be traded among "faithful" men likes trading chips. They have no moral high ground here.
cheese | 12:05 a.m. May 10, 2008
To "Voice of Reason" Where's your proof?!! The girls tried to
prove their age and the CPS won't accept any of their ID. Poeple like you
are always spouting off about abuse that all you have for evidence is something
you read in the paper. So I ask you again WHERE'S YOUR PROOF? Either put up
or shutup.
cheese | 12:16 a.m. May 10, 2008
"Voice of Reason" Where's your proof?!! The CPS won't accept
valid ID as such and then you go quoting them on the abuse allegation. So I ask
you again WHERE'S YOUR PROOF?!!! Either put up or shut up!
So sorry | 12:35 a.m. May 10, 2008
you were told: "Some said that all were beholden to what one man says ...
As I grew up I was taught that the Pope was perfect and I was bound to do
everything he said or I would go to H...."
That has NOTHING to do with established Catholicism. Comparing an enclosed community with guard towers and fences practicing child briding with Uncle Warren holding sway with Catholics coming and going as they please in NORMAL and OPEN neighborhoods and even making ill informed interpretations like the one you CLAIM you heard is just plain childish. I hope you don't think you're helping to create another Short Creek because if you are ... heaven help you ....
That has NOTHING to do with established Catholicism. Comparing an enclosed community with guard towers and fences practicing child briding with Uncle Warren holding sway with Catholics coming and going as they please in NORMAL and OPEN neighborhoods and even making ill informed interpretations like the one you CLAIM you heard is just plain childish. I hope you don't think you're helping to create another Short Creek because if you are ... heaven help you ....
To: Cheese | 12:40 a.m. May 10, 2008
what planet are you from? ... do you actually have a clue as to what you
don't know? ... in terms of scientic determination of age etc? ... and just
who do you think you are to demand proof? ... CPS doesn't have to share the
sweat on their brow with you. Get over yourself ...
Patti | 12:56 a.m. May 10, 2008
PHXCOP-Read LDS Articles of Faith! What Article of Faith does the FLDS have?
except Poligamy! The LDS church follows the law of the land.
Another course | 1:09 a.m. May 10, 2008
The parents don't have to identify anything because they have 5th amendment
rights.
All the judge had to do was order the ad litem and parent attorneys to put the documentation together; including relationships, ages, etc. To give incentive they grant immunity on the documentation so it can not be used for future prosecution and they seal it after the hearing. The problem is solved and they can act on getting the kids at risk out of immediate danger. Unless you are a hate mongering religious bigot bent on persecution 19th Century Missouri style.
All the judge had to do was order the ad litem and parent attorneys to put the documentation together; including relationships, ages, etc. To give incentive they grant immunity on the documentation so it can not be used for future prosecution and they seal it after the hearing. The problem is solved and they can act on getting the kids at risk out of immediate danger. Unless you are a hate mongering religious bigot bent on persecution 19th Century Missouri style.
Mink | 1:17 a.m. May 10, 2008
It's not a bunch of weirdos on this site that have said that all the
children must remain in state custody because of their beliefs. It is Texas CPS
that has said this in their response to the Third Court of Appeals. So, a
four-year-old boy who has not been physically or sexually abused must remain in
state custody because his parents will teach him their beliefs, including
following their religious leaders. I'm not saying this - Texas CPS is. So
don't say this is just about sexual abuse. Otherwise, you're not
agreeing with the entity that so of many of you have blindly supported
throughout this case.
I'm also amazed at how many people blindly accept Texas CPS's wholesale effort to color every individual involved with the same brush. Because many mothers were uncooperative, we are asked to assume that all were uncooperative. Even the limited facts as expressed in the media contradict this. You cannot file a writ of habaes corpus without establishing standing. Dozens of these have been filed - so those parents have said who their children are. Other monogamous couples have come forward with names and records to no avail. The judge assumes they're forged.
I'm also amazed at how many people blindly accept Texas CPS's wholesale effort to color every individual involved with the same brush. Because many mothers were uncooperative, we are asked to assume that all were uncooperative. Even the limited facts as expressed in the media contradict this. You cannot file a writ of habaes corpus without establishing standing. Dozens of these have been filed - so those parents have said who their children are. Other monogamous couples have come forward with names and records to no avail. The judge assumes they're forged.
Mink | 1:34 a.m. May 10, 2008
So, if we've crossed over into accepting that the state can take children
from their parents based on their parents' beliefs, how do we establish
which beliefs are acceptable and which are not? Who makes that call?
Government bureaucrats?
Underage girls who are pregnant or have children - sure, take them from parents and investigate. The actions of the adults around them justify this. I can even accept taking their siblings until all facts can be sorted out. But what about the young monogomous couples. Their children are all young; there appears to be no evidence supporting a claim that they were at risk of imminent harm. The only justification the state offers is that they were being raised in a belief system including a strong group identity and a strong bias to obey authority figures. The assumption is that the belief system and environment will cause these children to eventially become abusers or to be abused.
If you care about children, as many of you claim, why don't you support having CPS round up inner city children? Many of them are subjected to a belief system and environment that will lead to lives of abuse and crime.
Underage girls who are pregnant or have children - sure, take them from parents and investigate. The actions of the adults around them justify this. I can even accept taking their siblings until all facts can be sorted out. But what about the young monogomous couples. Their children are all young; there appears to be no evidence supporting a claim that they were at risk of imminent harm. The only justification the state offers is that they were being raised in a belief system including a strong group identity and a strong bias to obey authority figures. The assumption is that the belief system and environment will cause these children to eventially become abusers or to be abused.
If you care about children, as many of you claim, why don't you support having CPS round up inner city children? Many of them are subjected to a belief system and environment that will lead to lives of abuse and crime.
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