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Texas officials drafting plans for FLDS children
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Joe B. | 3:22 p.m. May 8, 2008
Thomas: If CPS workers think they have it so hard working 6am to 2am I've
got a suggestion. Just quit already! You'd be doing a public service by
just getting out of the way. American families can do just fine raising their
own, without your nosy interference and kid-snatching on every anonymous phone
call tip.
Re: Why Not | 4:07 p.m. May 8, 2008
...and what is the rate of 12-13 years olds giving birth in the "inner
city"?
At any given FLDS community, I'd be willing to bet the birth rate for children under the age of 16 is higher than in any "inner city".
...and the parents condone it, as opposed to those "inner city" births you speak of. Rape charges are pressed in many of those "inner city" cases.
Where are the FLDS rape charges?
At any given FLDS community, I'd be willing to bet the birth rate for children under the age of 16 is higher than in any "inner city".
...and the parents condone it, as opposed to those "inner city" births you speak of. Rape charges are pressed in many of those "inner city" cases.
Where are the FLDS rape charges?
Comments continue below
childs rights | 4:10 p.m. May 8, 2008
I keep seeing you posters complain about the CPS and the constitution. What
about the children? Are you so stuck in your little tunnelvision that you
don't see what these adults are doing to these children?
I'm not saying that the CPS should have gone in and taken all those kids... BUT SOMEONE SURE AS HELL NEEDED TO. Don't you get it? These kids were trapped behind huge walls and a watchtower, destined to NEVER experience a life outside of that compound. No one is disputing this fact. Was there abuse, underage sex and marriage, etc? Who knows. But what is known is that most of those kids were never getting out of there EVER unless someone got them out before they were totally brainwashed. Should CPS have gone in? Perhaps not. Maybe the military SeaBees should have gone in with their bulldozers and just taken out the walls. I'd have settled for that. Make the kids go outside the walls 2 afternoons a week.. I don't know. All I know is that leaving them there as is, or sending them back as is, has got to be the absolute worst (and cruelest) option...
Free the kids.
I'm not saying that the CPS should have gone in and taken all those kids... BUT SOMEONE SURE AS HELL NEEDED TO. Don't you get it? These kids were trapped behind huge walls and a watchtower, destined to NEVER experience a life outside of that compound. No one is disputing this fact. Was there abuse, underage sex and marriage, etc? Who knows. But what is known is that most of those kids were never getting out of there EVER unless someone got them out before they were totally brainwashed. Should CPS have gone in? Perhaps not. Maybe the military SeaBees should have gone in with their bulldozers and just taken out the walls. I'd have settled for that. Make the kids go outside the walls 2 afternoons a week.. I don't know. All I know is that leaving them there as is, or sending them back as is, has got to be the absolute worst (and cruelest) option...
Free the kids.
RE: Joe B | 4:24 p.m. May 8, 2008
So in your opinion, the FLDS are doing just fine, and it is acceptable that none
of these women and children will have any say in how they live their lives EVER.
They are destined to live behind those walls, told what to do 24/7 and never be
able to have the freedoms that we cherish so dearly. Is that correct? Because
that's what you said, dude.
And there should be no child services depts anywhere because the drug-addict mother and incestuist father in the inner-city are going to raise their children just fine.
You sir, are not thinking of the children - you are thinking of yourself... and making some really idiotic statements.
And there should be no child services depts anywhere because the drug-addict mother and incestuist father in the inner-city are going to raise their children just fine.
You sir, are not thinking of the children - you are thinking of yourself... and making some really idiotic statements.
mistereporter | 4:35 p.m. May 8, 2008
"When accusations become evidence, and allegations are facts; know then
that freedom is gone forever and they will come for your children next."
Posted by Tribune online reader 5-4-08.
No criminal charges have been brought in the FLDS matter.
The inflammatory words used by posters to bolster their opinions do nothing to advance the cause of justice and fairness. Spin words -- rape, incest, pedophilia, sexual abuse, child abuse, sexual slavery -- are from Internet postings, newspaper and TV accounts, talk shows, subjective memoirs of former members, and from rumor, gossip, and innuendo. None of it is evidence.
Let us wait for a fair trial. Then we, too, may pass judgment on others of the image and likeness.
No criminal charges have been brought in the FLDS matter.
The inflammatory words used by posters to bolster their opinions do nothing to advance the cause of justice and fairness. Spin words -- rape, incest, pedophilia, sexual abuse, child abuse, sexual slavery -- are from Internet postings, newspaper and TV accounts, talk shows, subjective memoirs of former members, and from rumor, gossip, and innuendo. None of it is evidence.
Let us wait for a fair trial. Then we, too, may pass judgment on others of the image and likeness.
Freethechildren | 4:38 p.m. May 8, 2008
I don't know what CPS supporters think they are saving FDLS children from.
The longer kids are in foster care the more likely they are to be molested by a
care giver and there is a high rate of pregnancy among girls in foster care.
re - freethechildren | 5:09 p.m. May 8, 2008
so in your opinion CPS was wrong to have come in and taken the children... ok -
I'll buy that. What do you think should have been done? Should the
children have just been left there? To be stuck behind huge walls and a
guardtower and NEVER experience the freedoms we hold so dear? Being told daily
that everything and everyone on the other side is evil? Ignore the newspaper
articles about sex and marriage, etc and just tell me that the children had the
same future hopes and dreams that we all have - and that they could fulfill them
if they wanted to. What say you to that?
re - mistereporter | 5:13 p.m. May 8, 2008
the only thing I know FOR SURE is that the FLDS putting up that wall and
guardtower was a huge mistake, and that parents should NOT have the right to
brainwash their children into thinking that they can have no life outside
"the wall". These children were having their civil rights severly
violated and needed intervention. Instead of capping on the CPS, why don't
you tell us what you would have done?
to ;re- freethechildren | 5:51 p.m. May 8, 2008
So far I am only convinced that maybe teenage girls are endanger of sexual
abuse.Teenagers are not as easy to brainwash as little kids and teenagers can
tattle if the state tries to abuse them sexually or physically. Only the the
teenage girls should have been taken and the teenage boys should have been given
choice as to wether they wanted to stay on the ranch or go with CPS. The little
children do not belong in custody. It is shameful that the state has stolen
babies after women have given birth. If it turns out that some of the women
being held by CPS really are over 18 Texas deserves to loose a fortune to those
women for false imprisonment.
to re-re-freethechildren | 6:21 p.m. May 8, 2008
so the little kids should have stayed at the ranch... ok - and then they are
kept there and never allowed to leave because after 15 years of trusted people
telling them that they are damned to hell if they leave the walls...
that's ok with you? Parents should not have the right to imprison and
brainwash these kids. Tear down the walls and allow them to see the real world.
If the kids stay there, then in 10 years you'll have twice as many
fanatics that don't have a clue about life, and most of them will be
pregnant. Try to think of the kids lives for once, not just of the current
situation. How will you feel when in 10,years those children have no future
except behind those walls. Is that fair to them?
CA | 7:01 p.m. May 8, 2008
Colorado City Hildale Utah Arizona
Population 3,334 1,895 2.2 mil 5.1 mil
Median Age 14.3 13.1 27.1 34.2
Av family size 7.58 8.10 3.57 3.18
Bachelors/higher 5.2% 8.8% 26.1% 23.5%
All parents in labor force, with own children under 6 21% 26.7% 52.3% 53.4%
Median household income
$32,826 $32,679 $45,726 $40,558
Median family income
$32,344 $31,750 $51,022 $46,723
Per capita income $5,293 $4,782 $18,185 $20,275
Families below poverty
level 29% 37% 6.5% 9.9%
Median rooms per home 7 8 6 5
Median value of owner-occupied
home $99,200 $80,000 $146,100 $121,300
Homes not mortgaged 92% 83% 24.2% 25.1%
Number of vacant homes for
sale zero 4 8,930 21,826
millstone | 7:17 p.m. May 8, 2008
The world is a dangerous place for children. CPS does not do a good job of
protecting foster care kids from abusers who try to use children once they are
in the system.
Anonymous | 8:45 p.m. May 8, 2008
MY life was messed up real bad when my wife and I were turned in back in 1981.
It seemed some LDS woman in our branch turned in 3 familys in one day, all in
our LDS Branch. All the familys turned in were new to the area (lived there less
than a year), and were active at church. As things sorted out over the next
month or so, it came out through the branch president, that the woman felt
challenged with all the new members moving in so fast. By turning us in she
hoped we would move on. It worked in the case of my wife and I and at least one
other family we knew. The State people who removed my kids, had them moved to
the other side of the State for "Safty reasons." When it was all
sorted out, no charges were filed against any of the three family, and the woman
who turned us in was NOT charged with any crime. THe State made me and my wife
Pay the homeward passage fares for our two children. Unfair, but was legal. I
have never since trusted any State people.
Anonymous | 9:00 p.m. May 8, 2008
I think that the fact that their "Prophet" Warren Jeffs is in jail for
being an accomplice to rape should make some people realize what has been going
on in this organization . What about the fact that his nephew has pressed
charges against him for sodomizing him for years? Yet some feel that these kids
would be safe to return to these people. Sure, he's in jail, but his
teachings will go on for years. Read about his court case and others pending
against him and this organization before jumping to conclusions.
Anonymous | 9:30 p.m. May 8, 2008
>>Question: Is this fair for the children, or is it abuse? Should parents
be allowed to confine their children and imbed concepts that so restrictive and
outlandish that the child will probably never have a normal life?<<
Would you like to have someone tell you what you can and cannot teach your kids?
Would you like to have someone tell you what you can and cannot teach your kids?
Susan | 9:38 p.m. May 8, 2008
>>These young children are being forced to have sex and get married long
before they are legally allowed to or emotionally prepared to.<<
Are you talking about Texas law? Because prior to 2005, when FLDS came to town, Texas law allowed 14 year old marriages.
Are you talking about Texas law? Because prior to 2005, when FLDS came to town, Texas law allowed 14 year old marriages.
Freddie | 9:44 p.m. May 8, 2008
"I keep seeing you posters complain about the CPS and the constitution.
What about the children? Are you so stuck in your little tunnelvision that you
don't see what these adults are doing to these children?"
There is nothing in the US Constitution about children. But there certainly is something there about religion and what the government can and cannot do about religious teachings.
There is nothing in the US Constitution about children. But there certainly is something there about religion and what the government can and cannot do about religious teachings.
Surprised | 12:28 a.m. May 9, 2008
They took these children out of the compound for their safety not for the hell
of it. I think it'd been stupid for them to go in and interview one child
at a time, where their possibly abusive parents stood not far away scaring them
into saying what they are suppose to. Get them out, let them start to trust
these "outsiders" and open up about any abuse that could be going
on.
The fact that 14 y/o are marrying men 3X their age is disgusting in its self. If you were 14 and ur parents told u u'd be marrying a 55 y/o man... how willing would u be? If a wife leaves the compound,the husband has a right to kill her...they scare these women into submission. And even the men are victims, you disobey u can have ur wives and children taken away. And you think the Gov is doing this bc they are "different".
I just don't understand how u can say return the children to possible abuse. And like one post said, abuse goes on all around us... so what makes you think theres nothing going on in a large compound like this?
The fact that 14 y/o are marrying men 3X their age is disgusting in its self. If you were 14 and ur parents told u u'd be marrying a 55 y/o man... how willing would u be? If a wife leaves the compound,the husband has a right to kill her...they scare these women into submission. And even the men are victims, you disobey u can have ur wives and children taken away. And you think the Gov is doing this bc they are "different".
I just don't understand how u can say return the children to possible abuse. And like one post said, abuse goes on all around us... so what makes you think theres nothing going on in a large compound like this?
Surprised | 12:41 a.m. May 9, 2008
By the way my comments are out of the mouths of past members of FLDS. Not some
rumor. After so many come forward about abuse after they left, compound should
hav been raided long ago. and the abuse was not only to teenagers but to
children. SMALL children. Is it so hard to believe that a huge compound there
aren't some sickos in there. They can live the way they live and not take
away freedom of thought and control over your body and ur future.
sosueme | 4:42 a.m. May 9, 2008
cont: No citizen review board just the word of an uneducated overzealous 20 yr
old case worker can remove the children from any parents home in this country.
Yes senator even your family. And I believ the decision to remove the children
from a parents home shoul be a well thought out last resort and only in the best
interest of the child, not the econonic stability of the state in which they
reside. Our (Big brother) federal government is paying bonuses for each child
removed from a family home. Why was this ever started and who benefited from the
original beginning of this? Our government is not doing anything that even
resembles our constitution nor freedoms. Maybe they better quit flying our flag
until we can get our government back under the control of the people it serves.
We are seriously losing our most basic rights in the name of national security,
we better stand united all of us or lose everything. I am standing here with my
hand outstretched come on america lets do it.
Thotman | 7:25 a.m. May 9, 2008
Texas Archipelego...
avengeance | 8:09 a.m. May 9, 2008
Since the government agents are so eager to remove children from a group, why
don't we start viewing the government agents as a cult? When you see a
social worker scorning her child, call the authorities. When you see a senator,
judge, police officer, appearing to abuse their child, call the authorities.
Once they have their own power used against them, they might consider changing
the rules a little. Until then, we can only expect more of the same.
Not a FLDS or LDS member | 1:25 p.m. May 9, 2008
I just read in a Texas paper that the 60 day trial isn't going to be a
"trial" but just a hearing to tell the parents what if anything they
can do to get their children back.
This is absolutely horrific! In a two day hearing, the State can take custody of 460 kids. What would be so wrong about having custody hearings for each child. Let each parent present and cross examine their own witnesses.
Clearing, if there is abuse, the more information the judge has the better. How does skipping the custody hearing benefit the child?
CPS has to know that this will be eventually overturned in Federal Court. They don't care though, they just want the extra time to reprogram the children.
This is absolutely horrific! In a two day hearing, the State can take custody of 460 kids. What would be so wrong about having custody hearings for each child. Let each parent present and cross examine their own witnesses.
Clearing, if there is abuse, the more information the judge has the better. How does skipping the custody hearing benefit the child?
CPS has to know that this will be eventually overturned in Federal Court. They don't care though, they just want the extra time to reprogram the children.
HC | 9:28 p.m. May 9, 2008
When we deal with state placement and state paid Homes there is always problems.
Mainstream kids should not have to handle these issues and for the FLDS kids it
is worse.
Yet, I think that can be made better and that these kids are in a better place then they were. We hear of the lost boys, child brides, and all new stuff that is comming to light. Abuse on the ranch is worse then what they are in right now.
These women, girls, and children have been in the abuse, with leaders that took freedoms, etc. They are confused and no other life then there and will return and continue the abuse, unless we step in and give the need help to break the cycle of abuse.
There is no book that has told us how to do this the right way, and there is no perfect world. I am sure mistakes will be made and I pray that these children will be protected and all of the children will remain safe.
Yet, I think that can be made better and that these kids are in a better place then they were. We hear of the lost boys, child brides, and all new stuff that is comming to light. Abuse on the ranch is worse then what they are in right now.
These women, girls, and children have been in the abuse, with leaders that took freedoms, etc. They are confused and no other life then there and will return and continue the abuse, unless we step in and give the need help to break the cycle of abuse.
There is no book that has told us how to do this the right way, and there is no perfect world. I am sure mistakes will be made and I pray that these children will be protected and all of the children will remain safe.
Personal rights | 8:06 p.m. June 2, 2008
I am not Mormon, Jewish, or Christian; just American - born & bred. I DO
respect the rights of all these groups to worship, and to act WITHIN THE LAW.
These FLDS children were taken to punish the few 'suspected' adults. Now CPS will drag out kids' releases, continue the deceit and hound these families forever.
If one underaged girl is pregnant in Peoria, can all the children of all the residents of Peoria be kidnapped and re-educated like CPS has done? Why not?
Or all teenaged boys in America should be imprisoned as "potential future predators"? We all are potentially able to commit some crime in the future...
The State should have to follow the law, find evidence of crime and charge said adults. Not abuse kids.
Who is next?
These FLDS children were taken to punish the few 'suspected' adults. Now CPS will drag out kids' releases, continue the deceit and hound these families forever.
If one underaged girl is pregnant in Peoria, can all the children of all the residents of Peoria be kidnapped and re-educated like CPS has done? Why not?
Or all teenaged boys in America should be imprisoned as "potential future predators"? We all are potentially able to commit some crime in the future...
The State should have to follow the law, find evidence of crime and charge said adults. Not abuse kids.
Who is next?
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Immoral?
I think a fifty-something year old man taking a pubescent girl as his umpteenth wife COULD be considered deviant and immoral by any community standard that lies outside the FLDS.
The Bishop's Records (FLDS census) confirm this to be the case in more than one instance at the YFZ Ranch, and I'm sure it's happening in Bountiful and "Short Creek" as well.
Why aren't they on "the outs"?
Hasn't anyone seen the photo of old Rulon Jeffs and his last two wives, given as "gifts"?
That man was a deviant...