Reader comments
Legal experts say what FLDS can do now is cooperate
150 comments | Read story
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
Bill | 12:43 p.m. May 7, 2008
There's as much evidence of brainwashed attitudes on this thread as there
is in the FLDS "compound."
California foster mom | 12:47 p.m. May 7, 2008
Re - Anonymous 12:05 PM. "73% of those "aging out" of the foster
care system end up in jail, addicted to drugs or homeless."
If we're going to look at statistics for children leaving the foster system we might want to look at the statistics of those entering the system as well.
Try parenting a child who comes from a home where drugs were sold and given to the children. Try parenting a child who has experienced profound sexual abuse. Try parenting a child who witnessed extreme violence. Try parenting a child who experienced profound neglect. Try parenting a child whose parents didn't get them medical care, and now have medical complications that will last them for the rest of their life.
Children of abuse come into the system with a huge burden to overcome. The older they are, the harder it is to make a difference in their lives, and the more you're going to see negative outcomes.
Foster parenting is harder than you can imagine. If you think you can do a better job...please do so.
If we're going to look at statistics for children leaving the foster system we might want to look at the statistics of those entering the system as well.
Try parenting a child who comes from a home where drugs were sold and given to the children. Try parenting a child who has experienced profound sexual abuse. Try parenting a child who witnessed extreme violence. Try parenting a child who experienced profound neglect. Try parenting a child whose parents didn't get them medical care, and now have medical complications that will last them for the rest of their life.
Children of abuse come into the system with a huge burden to overcome. The older they are, the harder it is to make a difference in their lives, and the more you're going to see negative outcomes.
Foster parenting is harder than you can imagine. If you think you can do a better job...please do so.
Red | 12:59 p.m. May 7, 2008
Safety & welfare of children justifies a lot of State snoopiness that
criminal law enforcement wouldn't allow, but there are still procedural
safeguards that must be followed so families aren't torn apart on a
bureaucratic whim.
Search google news for "State's Action in FLDS Case Raises Questions" (including quotes). Tom Avant, the former mayor of Hamlin, Texas lays out illegal behavior by bureaucrats and the judge in this case.
A lot of what is misunderstood as defending FLDS lawbreakers is actually outrage that Texas officials hold the law (which they have sworn to uphold) in open contempt.
A rogue religion has tragic consequences for a few.
A rogue State endangers us all.
Search google news for "State's Action in FLDS Case Raises Questions" (including quotes). Tom Avant, the former mayor of Hamlin, Texas lays out illegal behavior by bureaucrats and the judge in this case.
A lot of what is misunderstood as defending FLDS lawbreakers is actually outrage that Texas officials hold the law (which they have sworn to uphold) in open contempt.
A rogue religion has tragic consequences for a few.
A rogue State endangers us all.
Comments continue below
St George Physician re: Genocide | 1:00 p.m. May 7, 2008
There is nothing in the definition of Genocide that reflects timing--and you are
dangerously misguided if you think this is just temporary anyway. But here is
the salient point of the definition: Adopted by Resolution 260 (III) A of the
United Nations General Assembly on 9 December 1948.
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or MENTAL harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER GROUP. (emphasis mine)
Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or MENTAL harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER GROUP. (emphasis mine)
Anonymous | 1:02 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Foster parenting is harder than you can imagine. If you think you can do a
better job...please do so."
I have actually.
Just because I refuse to deny the realities of the system DOES NOT mean I haven't also been a caring foster parent.
I have actually.
Just because I refuse to deny the realities of the system DOES NOT mean I haven't also been a caring foster parent.
St George Physician re: Genocide | 1:13 p.m. May 7, 2008
...and to answer the question regarding the age of mothers that I have
treated:
I'm not saying they aren't there, but I haven't personally met any mothers younger than 17. And I have treated thousands from their community--including many that ended up leaving for TX.
In contrast, I saw the inner city hospitals in St Louis where I got my training. They are FULL of mothers younger than 16--sometimes as young as 11 and 12.
If you had the privilege of knowing them personally, you would see that on balance (except for the criminal minority) they are some of the finest people, who raise some of the most decent kids you could ever meet. I really count working with them as among the highlights of my career.
And no...I don't belong to their religion.
Its a pity the FLDS are being so marginalized. I'm sure most of the Germans thought the Jews were subhuman too--which totally justified their action/inaction on their behalf.
I'm not saying they aren't there, but I haven't personally met any mothers younger than 17. And I have treated thousands from their community--including many that ended up leaving for TX.
In contrast, I saw the inner city hospitals in St Louis where I got my training. They are FULL of mothers younger than 16--sometimes as young as 11 and 12.
If you had the privilege of knowing them personally, you would see that on balance (except for the criminal minority) they are some of the finest people, who raise some of the most decent kids you could ever meet. I really count working with them as among the highlights of my career.
And no...I don't belong to their religion.
Its a pity the FLDS are being so marginalized. I'm sure most of the Germans thought the Jews were subhuman too--which totally justified their action/inaction on their behalf.
Judy | 1:24 p.m. May 7, 2008
To all those screaming about lack of evidence--CPS does not need to feed the 24
hour news cycle by giving us facts daily to titillate us. The first step-to id
parent/child pairs--is underway. If CPS works as I have seen it do before,
these parent/child groups will be assessed individually. There will be easy
cases of monogamous of-age couples with healthy, whole kids. There will be cases
where the abuse seems self-evident, such as polygamous situations with underage
mothers. And then there will be the gray cases--kids with lots of broken bones,
kids who have all sorts of problems that may or may not relate to abuse,
possibly kids for whom biological parents can't be identified, preteen
girls whose fathers have teen wives. The arrests would be in the second group.
There could be temporary loss of custody in the 3rd group without arrests or
else requirements that parents attend classes or submit to monitoring. This
doesn't work like Law & Order on TV. It takes time to work it all out.
CPS works to unite families if it can-but it is not always in the best interest
of the individual child in each case.
wrz | 1:27 p.m. May 7, 2008
"The US Constitution does not give religious groups the right to violate
the law simply because they call their unlawful practices religious
beliefs."
The US Constitution gives religious groups the right to teach anything they wish... It says that Congress (meaning any government agency) cannot dictate what a religion can or cannot teach.
"This is apparently the main problem the FLDS, and you, are having with this whole fiasco. The FLDS have been taught by an incompetent leader that what they are doing is right and, therefore, they don't think they are doing anything wrong, even though it is against the law."
Incompetent leader? Many feel that the Pope or Baptist ministers are incompetent. That doesn't make it so. It's just opinion. Nothing more.
"You can argue all you want that their child-abusing practices are "religious beliefs," but they're still against the law."
If there are law breakers there (or anywhere) they should be brought to justice. But I hardly think a mother and her 12 month old toddler are breaking the law. Yet they were kidnapped then separated never to see each other again. If you have any empathy at all you should have some for that situation.
The US Constitution gives religious groups the right to teach anything they wish... It says that Congress (meaning any government agency) cannot dictate what a religion can or cannot teach.
"This is apparently the main problem the FLDS, and you, are having with this whole fiasco. The FLDS have been taught by an incompetent leader that what they are doing is right and, therefore, they don't think they are doing anything wrong, even though it is against the law."
Incompetent leader? Many feel that the Pope or Baptist ministers are incompetent. That doesn't make it so. It's just opinion. Nothing more.
"You can argue all you want that their child-abusing practices are "religious beliefs," but they're still against the law."
If there are law breakers there (or anywhere) they should be brought to justice. But I hardly think a mother and her 12 month old toddler are breaking the law. Yet they were kidnapped then separated never to see each other again. If you have any empathy at all you should have some for that situation.
Why Bother | 1:38 p.m. May 7, 2008
Why bother to post on this forum? This is a Utah forum and the LDS hate with a
passion (And against their teachings) the FLDS.
Anyone who is up in arms about the precedent this sets will be called "Child Molesters" and so on...
The problem is this: In ANY group of 450 children there is going to be child abuse. It's a sad but true fact. They are going to find some abused children. However the VAST majority of these children are not abused and live perfectly normal and arguably healthier lives than our own children who are subject to junk like Britany Spears and BRATS.
And the sad part is that in the "Main Stream" we probably even have near to similar or higher underage pregnancy rate.
But let your moral compass run wild and dream up the worst possible scenario instead of logically looking at the big picture. Because next time it may be your apartment building or town that has all its children taken away... because this proves it is possible.
Anyone who is up in arms about the precedent this sets will be called "Child Molesters" and so on...
The problem is this: In ANY group of 450 children there is going to be child abuse. It's a sad but true fact. They are going to find some abused children. However the VAST majority of these children are not abused and live perfectly normal and arguably healthier lives than our own children who are subject to junk like Britany Spears and BRATS.
And the sad part is that in the "Main Stream" we probably even have near to similar or higher underage pregnancy rate.
But let your moral compass run wild and dream up the worst possible scenario instead of logically looking at the big picture. Because next time it may be your apartment building or town that has all its children taken away... because this proves it is possible.
Rich | 1:41 p.m. May 7, 2008
It's important to remember what "innocent until proved guilty"
means. It does NOT mean the government must treat you as innocent until you are
proved guilty. No, only the judge or jury charged with determining your guilt
must start with the presumption of innocent. If there is enough evidence to
prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you are guilty, even if you are innocent,
then the jury must convict you. In civil cases the standard isn't even
"beyond a reasonable doubt" but "the preponderance of
evidence." If the jury thinks you're guilty, you're guilty, even
if they think the chances of your being guilty are only slightly better than
50:50. The public, the police, the prosecutor -- none of them must consider you
innocent -- and that's especially true in a child welfare case. If they
think you're a threat to the well-being of a child, be prepared to prove
your innocence.
wrz | 1:42 p.m. May 7, 2008
Red, excellent post at 12:59.
Worth Noting | 1:50 p.m. May 7, 2008
"Unfortunately, the majority of dedicated federal funding for child welfare is currently reserved for foster care services and cannot be used for prevention or reunification services or supports..
States may access dollars under Title IV-E, the principal source of federal child welfare funding, only after children have been removed from their home and enter foster care.
Of the $7.2 billion in federal funds dedicated for child welfare in 2007, approximately 90 percent supported children in foster care placements ($4.5 billion) and children adopted from foster care ($2.0 billion). States can use about 10 percent of federal dedicated child welfare funds flexibly for family services and supports, including prevention or reunification services, in accordance with local and regional decisions about what is most needed."
So States (including Texas), receive funding "ONLY after children HAVE BEEN REMOVED from their home and enter foster care".
While "removal" of children is heavily funded - almost none is provided for "reunification processes" (returning children).
Since children are "removed" based on "suspicion" - this creates a problem.
Plus, funding stops - if a "case" is "closed" .
This creates an inherent "financial conflict of interest" within the "child welfare industry".
Redux: Genocide | 1:52 p.m. May 7, 2008
I believe you that there are a lot of good, decent people within the FLDS
community. I'm sure most of them are just trying to live their religious
beliefs (however misguided) to the best of their ability.
I find it difficult, however, to understand how such loving, caring people could support kicking young boys out of their community, forcing underaged girls into arranged marriages, and re-assigning wives and children to different families at the whim of their "prophet."
There seems to be a vast disconnect between some of the current FLDS practices and what is considered legal and moral in the "outside" world and the FLDS people seem incapable of addressing those differences when their leader leads them astray.
In regards to genocide:
"Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed WITH INTENT TO DESTROY, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such..."
I see NO INTENT on the part of Texas to destroy the FLDS. The only intent I see is to investigate, and if the allegations are proven, to stop child abuse from continuing within the FLDS community.
I find it difficult, however, to understand how such loving, caring people could support kicking young boys out of their community, forcing underaged girls into arranged marriages, and re-assigning wives and children to different families at the whim of their "prophet."
There seems to be a vast disconnect between some of the current FLDS practices and what is considered legal and moral in the "outside" world and the FLDS people seem incapable of addressing those differences when their leader leads them astray.
In regards to genocide:
"Article 2
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed WITH INTENT TO DESTROY, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such..."
I see NO INTENT on the part of Texas to destroy the FLDS. The only intent I see is to investigate, and if the allegations are proven, to stop child abuse from continuing within the FLDS community.
Re: wrz | 2:02 p.m. May 7, 2008
"The US Constitution gives religious groups the right to teach anything
they wish... It says that Congress (meaning any government agency) cannot
dictate what a religion can or cannot teach."
So if a religious leader (say, Warren Jeffs) decides to teach cannabalism, pedophilia, human sacrifice, drug abuse, human slavery, the government, according to the FLDS belief system, has no authority to intervene?
We're getting a clearer picture of why the FLDS believe they're above the law. Anything the prophet teaches is right, no matter what the government says.
So if a religious leader (say, Warren Jeffs) decides to teach cannabalism, pedophilia, human sacrifice, drug abuse, human slavery, the government, according to the FLDS belief system, has no authority to intervene?
We're getting a clearer picture of why the FLDS believe they're above the law. Anything the prophet teaches is right, no matter what the government says.
To Redux: Genocide | 2:19 p.m. May 7, 2008
Finally a sane comment on here. I agree with you 100%. Thank you.
R U Kidding? | 2:21 p.m. May 7, 2008
"I see NO INTENT on the part of Texas to destroy the FLDS."
LOL You must be the only one then! :D
Harry Reid is currently after Federal help so ALL FLDS communities can be "attended to" at once.
NOPE. It's clearly GENOCIDE not "salvation".
Yep! If this was Salem we'd all be smelling burning hair and broom-straw by now.
We're civilized so it's gonna take a little longer.
LOL You must be the only one then! :D
Harry Reid is currently after Federal help so ALL FLDS communities can be "attended to" at once.
NOPE. It's clearly GENOCIDE not "salvation".
Yep! If this was Salem we'd all be smelling burning hair and broom-straw by now.
We're civilized so it's gonna take a little longer.
Re: wrz | 2:36 p.m. May 7, 2008
Right on! I totally agree with you.
Genocide | 3:12 p.m. May 7, 2008
How convenient to skip over the part of the definition which states:
"FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER GROUP."
100 percent of the kids in this community are forcibly transferred to another group. And no one has been charged with a crime.
Almost every kid I know from their community is happy and well adjusted. I have also met some of the young men who have left or been pushed out. The rate of abuse in this community is not any greater than any other community.
You don't see the Government abuse? The ends don't justify the means--otherwise America just becomes another Banana Republic. No matter how much you love these children, there is NO ROOM for despotism!
100 percent of the kids in this community are forcibly transferred to another group. And no one has been charged with a crime.
Almost every kid I know from their community is happy and well adjusted. I have also met some of the young men who have left or been pushed out. The rate of abuse in this community is not any greater than any other community.
You don't see the Government abuse? The ends don't justify the means--otherwise America just becomes another Banana Republic. No matter how much you love these children, there is NO ROOM for despotism!
to re wrz | 3:15 p.m. May 7, 2008
A church can teach cannibalism, the catholic communion is one such example.
But, the government can stop you based on actions, such as you murdering so you
can cannibalize.
Unfortunately it will be be difficult to charge people with polygamy when many in our current society commit adultery without prosecution and those laws are also on the books.
Unfortunately it will be be difficult to charge people with polygamy when many in our current society commit adultery without prosecution and those laws are also on the books.
Bruce | 3:21 p.m. May 7, 2008
I really thought the "genocide" arguement was a little far-fetched
until I researched it. It appears that is exactly what this is.
I have also been quite naive as I didn't realize there existed such hatred from LDS members toward anyone who tries to live by what they believe are the original tenets of the church founders. What's up with that...polygamy envy?
I really don't think that if the members "cooperate" with authorities that it would help them or their children at all. Especially when the authority is Texas CPS who has a worse track record of children being molested, assaulted, raped, and even killed while in their care, than anything they could possibly accuse the FLDS of. Why would anyone trust them?
I have also been quite naive as I didn't realize there existed such hatred from LDS members toward anyone who tries to live by what they believe are the original tenets of the church founders. What's up with that...polygamy envy?
I really don't think that if the members "cooperate" with authorities that it would help them or their children at all. Especially when the authority is Texas CPS who has a worse track record of children being molested, assaulted, raped, and even killed while in their care, than anything they could possibly accuse the FLDS of. Why would anyone trust them?
Concerned | 4:07 p.m. May 7, 2008
As a father, grandfather, great grandfather, AND a great great grandfather, I am
amazed at how few of the respondents to this blog are able to sort through the
facts, and inteligently discuss them.
I have seen no evidence that speeks to abuse by the state of Texas and their agencies that have the responisibilities of handling this situation. That doesn't mean there have not been a few mistakes, but no one has had to deal with an incident of this magnitude.
The welfare of the children is paramount, and the evidence seems sufficient to warrent intervention. I, for one applaud the handling of this incident.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I believe no one, including a self proclaimed religion, has the right to exploit others, ESPECIALY CHILDREN, for their perverted ways. Let the authorities work through this for the sake of the children, and then voice your opinion.
I have seen no evidence that speeks to abuse by the state of Texas and their agencies that have the responisibilities of handling this situation. That doesn't mean there have not been a few mistakes, but no one has had to deal with an incident of this magnitude.
The welfare of the children is paramount, and the evidence seems sufficient to warrent intervention. I, for one applaud the handling of this incident.
As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I believe no one, including a self proclaimed religion, has the right to exploit others, ESPECIALY CHILDREN, for their perverted ways. Let the authorities work through this for the sake of the children, and then voice your opinion.
wrz | 4:40 p.m. May 7, 2008
>>So if a religious leader (say, Warren Jeffs) decides to teach
cannabalism, pedophilia, human sacrifice, drug abuse, human slavery, the
government, according to the FLDS belief system, has no authority to intervene?
>We're getting a clearer picture of why the FLDS believe they're
above the law. >Anything the prophet teaches is right, no matter what the
government says.<<
Anything the prophet (or Pope, preacher, reverend, pastor, etc.) wants to teach, he/they can teach. And the government cannot interfere.
Anything the prophet (or Pope, preacher, reverend, pastor, etc.) wants to teach, he/they can teach. And the government cannot interfere.
Voters are tyrants too | 5:31 p.m. May 7, 2008
Rich wrote, "In civil cases the standard isn't even 'beyond a
reasonable doubt' but 'the preponderance of evidence.' If the
jury thinks you're guilty, you're guilty, even if they think the
chances of your being guilty are only slightly better than 50:50."
Now explain why one man calling himself King can't take your children and decide that you are guilty based on a 50/50 opinion that you instead of 12 men calling themselves jurors can. What's even worst is the jury has immunity if it's wrong just like they do if they vote to kill someone who is innocent.
And kidnapping isn't a civil case if anyone but the state commits it but since the state has the sole power to make laws. The majority gives itself the right to do what otherwise would be a crime. 400 children were taken which means that over 800 parents had their right violated by the voters and their representative so tell us why they should submit to your tyranny anymore than the people of Iraq should have to Saddam Hussein. I am just wondering how individuals like you think you can do collectively what alone would make you a tryant.
Now explain why one man calling himself King can't take your children and decide that you are guilty based on a 50/50 opinion that you instead of 12 men calling themselves jurors can. What's even worst is the jury has immunity if it's wrong just like they do if they vote to kill someone who is innocent.
And kidnapping isn't a civil case if anyone but the state commits it but since the state has the sole power to make laws. The majority gives itself the right to do what otherwise would be a crime. 400 children were taken which means that over 800 parents had their right violated by the voters and their representative so tell us why they should submit to your tyranny anymore than the people of Iraq should have to Saddam Hussein. I am just wondering how individuals like you think you can do collectively what alone would make you a tryant.
Rather you agree or not! | 6:49 p.m. May 7, 2008
The FLDS's rights have been violated
The Flds has cooperated so they would not be burned out like Waco
It is time the kids go home to Mommy
If Texas wants to do something
Make the kids go to Public Schools
They can establish one on the Compound
The Flds has cooperated so they would not be burned out like Waco
It is time the kids go home to Mommy
If Texas wants to do something
Make the kids go to Public Schools
They can establish one on the Compound
curtis | 6:52 p.m. May 7, 2008
"that the information they are acting on is correct, the warrant is
valid"
The info they were acting upon was bogus and they knew it. How the in the world does a judge grant a warrent when they have not confirmed where the phone call came from. They obviosly have the technology to trace the call, how else did they find the woman in colorado!!!!!
The info they were acting upon was bogus and they knew it. How the in the world does a judge grant a warrent when they have not confirmed where the phone call came from. They obviosly have the technology to trace the call, how else did they find the woman in colorado!!!!!
bob | 7:11 p.m. May 7, 2008
Does anyone see that religion and/or polygamy have nothing to do with the
decision Texas made to remove all 463 children?? The decision was due to
imminent danger to some and risk of abuse to ALL. Just because some children
had not been sexually/physically abused at the time of the investigation/removal
does not mean that they are not at risk of being harmed in the future, when they
begin menstruating or are "disobidient," as indicated based on the
evidence obtained thus far. Texas Family Code addresses risk, risk-based
investigations and, when necessary, risk-based removals. It would be like going
into a home where 2 of the 3 children were being sexually/physically abused and
only removing the 2, leaving the 3rd to possibly become a victim, based on the
information obtained during that investigation. Ask yourself, would you rather
keep a child from harm or wait until the child has been harmed to intervene?
Also, I have to wonder, if the circumstances alleged and the results of the
investigation were the same, except this was an extended family with 463
children, all living on a large family farm, with NO religious affiliation,
would it be as contriversial? Or just less interesting?
freethefdlschildren | 7:50 p.m. May 7, 2008
I am from Texas. CPS has stolen children from many people on false allegations
in Texas only to hand them over to child abusers. This is the first mass
kidnapping Texas CPS has ever pulled ;this does not bode well for the children
of Texas. So even though I am not a polygamist or a supporter of teen a
marriages I do not wish the state success in its prosecution of this case.
Cooperating with the state will not guaranntee the return of the children particularly the babies. The mothers should be polite to CPS workers but fall way short of using the CPS workers as confidents. They should only cooperate with reasonable demands. Taking child safety courses is a reasonale demand. Demanding that the mothers convert to Southern Babtist or Catholism is unreasonable. Anything they tell the CPS workers will be used against them. Victory is assured if not now then in the very long run they will succeed if they do not give up.In the future the children will not look favorably on the state when they see armed thugs and CPS workers taking children from weeping mothers.
Cooperating with the state will not guaranntee the return of the children particularly the babies. The mothers should be polite to CPS workers but fall way short of using the CPS workers as confidents. They should only cooperate with reasonable demands. Taking child safety courses is a reasonale demand. Demanding that the mothers convert to Southern Babtist or Catholism is unreasonable. Anything they tell the CPS workers will be used against them. Victory is assured if not now then in the very long run they will succeed if they do not give up.In the future the children will not look favorably on the state when they see armed thugs and CPS workers taking children from weeping mothers.
helpless | 8:08 p.m. May 7, 2008
What can we as citizens do to help the moms get their babies and children back?
I feel helpless as I watch this crime against other US citizens. What would be
in our power to do without anybody taking our children?
This is the most terrible abuse of power I have ever seen in this country!
This is the most terrible abuse of power I have ever seen in this country!
WRIGHT OR WRONG | 8:14 p.m. May 7, 2008
SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THEY CAN JUSTIFY TAKING ALL THE CHILDREN FROM ALL THE
HOMES, AM I MISSING SOMTHING ???
LET THEM TAKE THE CHILDREN FROM THE HOMES THAT THIS ABUSE HAS BEEN OCCURING, LEAVE THE REST ALONE !!!
LET THEM TAKE THE CHILDREN FROM THE HOMES THAT THIS ABUSE HAS BEEN OCCURING, LEAVE THE REST ALONE !!!
Just in time | 8:29 p.m. May 7, 2008
Janet Reno the Attorney General under Clinton killed everyone in the religious
compound in Wayco, Texas.
Remember that. She was so proud of herself.
Remember that. She was so proud of herself.
and if you want to do something | 8:41 p.m. May 7, 2008
search google for "flds children", go to the top entry on the list,
look at the other side's story, and decide if you want to help them by
donating - there is a page there for that. Cheering these folks from the
sidelines, or hoping that justice will prevail by its own is not going to make
much difference. Money talks. Imagine the cost of fighting 650 lawsuits against
a State Agency that is fighting to save its face. So far mainly by inuendo, it
seems.
Not a polygamist, a good old Catholic. But you don't need to be a polygamist to see this stinks, do you ?
Not a polygamist, a good old Catholic. But you don't need to be a polygamist to see this stinks, do you ?
re: helpless | 8:48 p.m. May 7, 2008
find the site FLDS set up to present their side of the story. They have a Donate
page. You can help them as much as you want, especially if you spread this among
friends.
google "flds children", thei page is right op top of the list.
google "flds children", thei page is right op top of the list.
Doug | 9:09 p.m. May 7, 2008
I worry about the unbridled power exercised by CPS. Texas "Family
law" may indeed authorize bureaucrats to seize custody of children they
deem to be endangered, but that doesn't mean the law is fair or even
Constitutional. Taking one's children away is akin to a criminal
punishment of parents. Saying CPS does not have to meet the threshold of proof
required for criminal cases sounds like an egregious and deliberate loophole to
me. All it takes is one bureaucrat to convince one judge and your children are
gone. Formal rules of evidence, presumption of innocence, right to trial by
jury, etc. are circumvented.
to bob | 9:16 p.m. May 7, 2008
Is it OK to put a person in jail for a crime he/she could commit? No? How about
put a person in jail for a crime they might commit? Hmmmnnn.... How about put
a person in jail for a crime they probably will commit (even though they
haven't done it yet)?
Any part of this legal system that allows the removal of those kids because they might get abused is a flimsy, tyrannical excuse for constitutional abuse of power. No one is safe under that standard--it could be argued that any kid is at risk. Who is next? Homeschoolers? The poor? Asian immigrants living in crowded quarters? People who believe in corporal punishment (spanking)? People who say "nee!"?
The most terrible abuse of all is making children pawns for the purpose of establishing a despotic, all powerful government. !!LIVE FREE OR DIE!!
Any part of this legal system that allows the removal of those kids because they might get abused is a flimsy, tyrannical excuse for constitutional abuse of power. No one is safe under that standard--it could be argued that any kid is at risk. Who is next? Homeschoolers? The poor? Asian immigrants living in crowded quarters? People who believe in corporal punishment (spanking)? People who say "nee!"?
The most terrible abuse of all is making children pawns for the purpose of establishing a despotic, all powerful government. !!LIVE FREE OR DIE!!
john b | 9:41 p.m. May 7, 2008
just a few comments on some of what i have read.
1 they are treated worse than animals.
in many cases if two or three cattle were sick the
law would kill the whold herd .no i dont think that is an option but it does show that they are treated beter.
2 children were all taken on warent of a false clame.
children were taken on warent/s judge made after people from that warent told her that they had seen teen girls who were about to have children and that already had children.
3 if child abuse has happend the should only take
the ones that have bbbn abused or from that family
the mothers would not tell them who the teen girls belonged to nor would the girls . so any they left could have been from the abusive family.
let the court get the facts all kids with loving
parents that can and do protect them should be with
the parents as much as possable john
1 they are treated worse than animals.
in many cases if two or three cattle were sick the
law would kill the whold herd .no i dont think that is an option but it does show that they are treated beter.
2 children were all taken on warent of a false clame.
children were taken on warent/s judge made after people from that warent told her that they had seen teen girls who were about to have children and that already had children.
3 if child abuse has happend the should only take
the ones that have bbbn abused or from that family
the mothers would not tell them who the teen girls belonged to nor would the girls . so any they left could have been from the abusive family.
let the court get the facts all kids with loving
parents that can and do protect them should be with
the parents as much as possable john
Alice | 12:15 a.m. May 8, 2008
I like Anonymous | 9:21 a.m. May 7, 2008 question: "If someone called and
said your child was drowning somewhere would you simply wait to see if the
caller were telling the truth or would you go check it out?"
I think I would HOPE someone who rush right out and check, but if when they get to the pool and they see that my child is NOT drowning - They see NO children are in the pool. I would hope they would not round up everyone that might be wet, or in the area on the off chance they MIGHT drown in the future at the pool.
If there is a problem with the pool - address that.
I think I would HOPE someone who rush right out and check, but if when they get to the pool and they see that my child is NOT drowning - They see NO children are in the pool. I would hope they would not round up everyone that might be wet, or in the area on the off chance they MIGHT drown in the future at the pool.
If there is a problem with the pool - address that.
Re: Genocide | 7:12 a.m. May 8, 2008
"How convenient to skip over the part of the definition which states:
"FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER
GROUP.""
I didn't skip over anything. The conditions in first clause of the article that you cited, MUST be valid, before the types of acts defining genocide can even be considered.
Article 2
In the present Convention, GENOCIDE MEANS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ACTS COMMITTED WITH INTENT TO DESTROY, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or MENTAL harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER GROUP. (emphasis mine)
Unless you can first PROVE that CPS and the state of Texas acted WITH INTENT TO DESTROY the FLDS group, then (a)through(e) can't be defined as genocide.
Even so, (e) DOES NOT apply because the FLDS children were not TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER GROUP, but were taken into TEMPORARY protective custody.
I didn't skip over anything. The conditions in first clause of the article that you cited, MUST be valid, before the types of acts defining genocide can even be considered.
Article 2
In the present Convention, GENOCIDE MEANS ANY OF THE FOLLOWING ACTS COMMITTED WITH INTENT TO DESTROY, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or MENTAL harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) FORCIBLY TRANSFERRING CHILDREN OF THE GROUP TO ANOTHER GROUP. (emphasis mine)
Unless you can first PROVE that CPS and the state of Texas acted WITH INTENT TO DESTROY the FLDS group, then (a)through(e) can't be defined as genocide.
Even so, (e) DOES NOT apply because the FLDS children were not TRANSFERRED TO ANOTHER GROUP, but were taken into TEMPORARY protective custody.
A Texan | 9:15 a.m. May 8, 2008
Texas is right in what they are doing, and I believe theres enough God faring
people in the other states of the USA which would stand behind their state laws
and enforcement where a child's welfare is concerned.
Folks the evidence is plain and simple... its about child abuse not religion. But hey, this country was founded on Godly beliefs in the Bible. Even our constitution has reference to this that it was drawn up on righteous religious beliefs.
If you Twist them around, change them up, try to be superior to others, set yourself up as an island against these "righteous beliefs" and you become perverted. FLDS a prime example Oh, By the way, the opposite of righteousness (right living) is wickedness (wrong living). Keep in mind...Right will prevail no matter who you are and how long you think you have gotten by with it!!!!!
Folks the evidence is plain and simple... its about child abuse not religion. But hey, this country was founded on Godly beliefs in the Bible. Even our constitution has reference to this that it was drawn up on righteous religious beliefs.
If you Twist them around, change them up, try to be superior to others, set yourself up as an island against these "righteous beliefs" and you become perverted. FLDS a prime example Oh, By the way, the opposite of righteousness (right living) is wickedness (wrong living). Keep in mind...Right will prevail no matter who you are and how long you think you have gotten by with it!!!!!
Destiny | 11:10 a.m. May 8, 2008
This is stupid. The posts here against cps that are crying "constitutional
rights", is just stupid. The accusations are simple -- underage
"spirital marriages". FLDS admits that if jeffs say so, then so be
it. CPS tried to investigate the underage thing. Way too difficult when FLDS
refused to properly identify everyones age, and age of marriage, and age of
pregnancy. If they would of cooperated instead of being soo deceiving CPS
wouldn't of had to take the kids. The only way CPS can investigate the
alligations is to perform DNA tests.
What is FLDS worried about.....DNA will provide the truth if Dad had sex with daughter because daughter gave birth to Dad's son at age 15!!!! If the DNA results come back that this did not occur - then they will get their children back. Everyone knows the FLDS believe that the girl should be married as soon as she is child bearing age (13,14,15). You say its not force....Force does not have to be physical. The threat of being ostricized, unsaved, bad, and kicked out of the only thing you know---Is Considered FORCE !!!!!
What is FLDS worried about.....DNA will provide the truth if Dad had sex with daughter because daughter gave birth to Dad's son at age 15!!!! If the DNA results come back that this did not occur - then they will get their children back. Everyone knows the FLDS believe that the girl should be married as soon as she is child bearing age (13,14,15). You say its not force....Force does not have to be physical. The threat of being ostricized, unsaved, bad, and kicked out of the only thing you know---Is Considered FORCE !!!!!
change | 1:11 p.m. May 8, 2008
Only a person who has never given birth to a child and never will give birth to
a child would be in favor of allowing CPS to take and keep children en masse
without so much as a trial. When people give up their DNA they are giving up all
kinds of information which the busy bodies of the government do not need. A
simple blood test could have determined parentage. It would have been cheaper
and it would have taken less time.
To destiny | 1:27 p.m. May 8, 2008
DNA can not be used at this time to determine the exact age of an individual.
Destiny | 1:27 p.m. May 8, 2008
Then a blood test is what they should of done. If, in, fact, that would
determine parentage. Will research that furthur.
Destiny | 1:45 p.m. May 8, 2008
What is the difference between a blood test and a mouth swab?
A buccal swab sample is just as accurate as a blood sample. The advantages of using buccal swab collections are that they are non-invasive, painless, quick and easy.
Can't give the exact age of an individual. But if the girl is 19 now and she has a child 5 years old, do the math. But I assume it is going to be very, very, difficult to get their real ages. Another point that if CPS had cooperation, the investigation wouldn't take sooo long. They are only hurting themselves. They could see at what year the child was listed on welfare and count up from there. Or there must be some way for the flds to prove their age and the ages of their children.
A buccal swab sample is just as accurate as a blood sample. The advantages of using buccal swab collections are that they are non-invasive, painless, quick and easy.
Can't give the exact age of an individual. But if the girl is 19 now and she has a child 5 years old, do the math. But I assume it is going to be very, very, difficult to get their real ages. Another point that if CPS had cooperation, the investigation wouldn't take sooo long. They are only hurting themselves. They could see at what year the child was listed on welfare and count up from there. Or there must be some way for the flds to prove their age and the ages of their children.
WorthNoting | 3:38 p.m. May 8, 2008
RE:They could see at what year the child was listed on welfare and count up from
there. Or there must be some way for the flds to prove their age and the ages of
their children.
NO ONE at the "Yearning for Zion Ranch" was a welfare recipient.
And they DID have "ways" to prove their age and the ages of their children - BUT ALL THEIR STUFF WAS TAKEN - huge search warrants - remember?
Some DID have Utah ID's since they were only at the ranch for a brief visit and DID NOT EVEN LIVE THERE (and got caught up in this)and CPS and law officers "refused to recognize these" even though they were current and valid.
NO ONE at the "Yearning for Zion Ranch" was a welfare recipient.
And they DID have "ways" to prove their age and the ages of their children - BUT ALL THEIR STUFF WAS TAKEN - huge search warrants - remember?
Some DID have Utah ID's since they were only at the ranch for a brief visit and DID NOT EVEN LIVE THERE (and got caught up in this)and CPS and law officers "refused to recognize these" even though they were current and valid.
Destiny | 4:36 p.m. May 8, 2008
Well, there lawyers won't have a hard time proving it then. That is if
they will even be honest about who they are and what children are theirs. Other
wise, their lawyers are going to have a hard time. We'll see..........
Anonymous | 11:50 p.m. May 8, 2008
If these men are raping young girls (i.e. having sex with a girl too young to
give legal consent) why aren�t the men being arrested?
Couldn�t the authorities issue restraining orders to keep
the men away from the houses where the women were living while they did this
�investigation.�?
Couldn�t they provide �domestic
violence shelter� services that allowed the children to
live with their mother, aunt, sister or someone they are familiar with in a safe
environment? Any thinking social worker or judge can think of better ways to
protect rape or domestic violence victims that this.
If there ever was a real �Sarah� at that ranch, to her and to all the other �Sarahs� in similar situations the message is real clear, �Shut up and bear it, it could get a lot worse - you could loose your child and/or your mother, sisters, and brothers!�
It is definitely easier to label a child as �at potential risk� than to do the work necessary to arrest and jail a rapist. Texas took the easy (lazy) way out!
If there ever was a real �Sarah� at that ranch, to her and to all the other �Sarahs� in similar situations the message is real clear, �Shut up and bear it, it could get a lot worse - you could loose your child and/or your mother, sisters, and brothers!�
It is definitely easier to label a child as �at potential risk� than to do the work necessary to arrest and jail a rapist. Texas took the easy (lazy) way out!
Destiny | 10:02 a.m. May 9, 2008
Anon
The mothers believe that giving their daughters to these old men is what is right. Duh -- how long has it been going on. Just because you can't get enough proof in a court to arrest the man doesn't mean it's not going on. For one thing - you need the girl to testify against the man. Inorder for her to do that she would lose her salvation. What a choice that gives that adolencent girl. You know as well as I that this is what the FLDS really and truely believes. They are afraid for their salvation. They are taught, conditioned to do anything and everything their profit tells them to do. Their profit is in jail for the very thing that CPS is worried about. At Risk? I'd say so.
The mothers believe that giving their daughters to these old men is what is right. Duh -- how long has it been going on. Just because you can't get enough proof in a court to arrest the man doesn't mean it's not going on. For one thing - you need the girl to testify against the man. Inorder for her to do that she would lose her salvation. What a choice that gives that adolencent girl. You know as well as I that this is what the FLDS really and truely believes. They are afraid for their salvation. They are taught, conditioned to do anything and everything their profit tells them to do. Their profit is in jail for the very thing that CPS is worried about. At Risk? I'd say so.
Hey Destiny | 6:13 p.m. May 10, 2008
Mother's aren't giving their daughters to old men. The bishop's
records show that many young women are married to men very near their own age
and often monogamous. I know yours sounds so exciting but I prefer sticking
with facts.
Another CC Flds woman was 17 when she married a young man. Much to your distress I know, he was 16 when they married. They left the FLDS for a time and returned. Over 10 years later they have 6 children and now active flds and monogamous. Yeah, they are pretty boring and nothing like the media, cps or the texas courts wants to present. OH and he likes shooting hoops despite the belief that FLDS can't play competitive games...so much for the truth in that as well.
Another CC Flds woman was 17 when she married a young man. Much to your distress I know, he was 16 when they married. They left the FLDS for a time and returned. Over 10 years later they have 6 children and now active flds and monogamous. Yeah, they are pretty boring and nothing like the media, cps or the texas courts wants to present. OH and he likes shooting hoops despite the belief that FLDS can't play competitive games...so much for the truth in that as well.
To: wrz | 2:02 a.m. May 11, 2008
you say: "I don't engage in discussions. I post my opinions."
---------------
For once, you got it right!
---------------
For once, you got it right!
To: WRIGHT or WRON | 2:09 a.m. May 11, 2008
You say: "SOMEONE EXPLAIN TO ME HOW THEY CAN JUSTIFY TAKING ALL THE
CHILDREN FROM ALL THE HOMES, AM I MISSING SOMTHING"
Yes, you are missin something AGAIN! ... community practices define dangerous ENVIRONMENTS! Even though children haven't been abused *yet* they are in a DANGEROUS environment in that at some point they will (having been groomed) be ready to: "be sweet" for Uncle Warren's buddies ... example: if you don't do as Uncle Warren says lil missy, you will be doomed to ETERNAL DAMNATION!
Yes, you are missin something AGAIN! ... community practices define dangerous ENVIRONMENTS! Even though children haven't been abused *yet* they are in a DANGEROUS environment in that at some point they will (having been groomed) be ready to: "be sweet" for Uncle Warren's buddies ... example: if you don't do as Uncle Warren says lil missy, you will be doomed to ETERNAL DAMNATION!
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Related content
- Stocks climb after econ reports 11:57 a.m.
- Missionaries talk to Michigan paper 11:49 a.m.
- Witness: Mitchell wanted attention 11:45 a.m.
- NBC sale to Comcast cleared 11:14 a.m.
- Palin book goes platinum 11:12 a.m.
- 2 arrested in Roy double slaying 11:09 a.m.
- Women's insurance to get first vote 10:52 a.m.
- Vandeweghe to coach Nets 10:51 a.m.
- Woods' wife asked neighbors to call 10:50 a.m.
- No fractures on Emery's foot 10:07 a.m.
- 2 citations issued at Y.-U. game
- Hall reprimanded by MWC
- Utes won't respond to Hall
- Mitchell called intelligent, controlling
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal
- Daughter: Mitchell fed me my pet
- BYU says Hall incident resolved
- Max Hall: a fixture in rivalry lore
- 'Grandfamilies' a growing trend
- Cougs begin bowl preparations
- Hall mouths off about hate of Utah
900 - Cougars beat Utes in overtime481
- Hall reprimanded by MWC393
- Max Hall issues apology385
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal328
- Utes won't respond to Hall268
- BYU says Hall incident resolved145
- BYU is champion of the state140
- Man trapped in Nutty Putty cave dies123
- Cave to be sealed with body inside120
My husband was teaching his 6th-grade class in Salt Lake last year when...
I wanted to tell them not to go. I dropped subtle hints. "My money is on...
Latest comments
This is such an awesome article! Thank you for posting it! It is so uplifting...
As a Ute fan with little money I would like to see the utes go to the vegas...
Social climbers. Why does the media devote so much time and attention to them?
Hey, this isn't Happy Valley. Why don't some people lock their doors?
Comments made by Max are not against the Honor Code so please stop the...
Seal off areas such as the birth canal where people get stuck frequently....
Diving on the floor is how players get injured...why does Sloan think it's so...
A friend of mine, who is a Arizona State Univ. fan. Told me that the fans who...
Mendenhall and Whittingham need to stand up and stop this mess. A friendly...
Human? | 7:36 a.m. YOU say, "I will be watching very closely next year to...
Advertisements