Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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All of this is assuming | 11:10 a.m. May 5, 2008

Catholics and others are beneath the LDS and their teachings...that is what this is really about. What gives any religion the right to say that? If you think your religion is better than others then keep it to yourselfs and don't hurt others with your arrogance. If you truly believe in "Baptisms for the Dead" then do it for your own ancestors, but leave people alone with every bit as much right as you to believe their religion is "true".

joel | 11:10 a.m. May 5, 2008

This is broader than a purely religious issue. The LDS Church has the largest genealogical research program in the world. For decades, it has copied records, with the permission of the record owners, returned microfilm or digital copies of the records to the owners and made the information available to the public for genealogical research. Copies have also been safely stored in the Church's granite vaults to preserve them against possible disasters worldwide. This has become an invaluable source of genealogical records for researchers. By choosing not to participate in this program, the Catholic Church is denying genealogists worldwide the opportunity to research their ancestors. Forget about religion or religious motivations for a minute; what kind of public relations and human relations decision is this?

Records | 11:12 a.m. May 5, 2008

The Church is not saying the records of your ancestors do not belong to you, but that they don't belong to the LDS church.

Comments continue below

anon e. mouse | 11:13 a.m. May 5, 2008

ajarizona- Your story makes no sense. If the nuns wanted to baptize a dying baby and there was no priest around, they would've done it themselves. After all, they have access to Holy Water and I'm sure your mom wouldn't have.

Sign of the Times | 11:16 a.m. May 5, 2008

When the most important work on earth is thwarted, can the end be far away?

Those who know, shouldn't be saddened.

Those who aren't saddened, don't know.

It will all work out according to the Lord's plan. Have faith.

Anonymous | 11:19 a.m. May 5, 2008

The most elitist, exclusive Church is not getting a taste of their own medicine! How does THAT feel?!

Tia | 11:23 a.m. May 5, 2008

I didn't have the time to read all of the comments, so I apologize if someone has already mentioned this.

The church has in the past gone against the direct wishes of a few religions and baptized holocaust survivors and so forth which is incredibly disrespectful. People that have passed away belonging to a certain religion should be respected, as they obviously believed in it. When the dead are baptized it looks more like the LDS church is stepping in and saying that the member was wrong and they have to save them. The Catholic church is definitely not questioning their doctrines and beliefs, or saying the Mormons could be right. That is simply arrogant. They just don't want anymore of their congregations defiled. This is not just the Catholic church's doing, it is based of of thousands of complaints from their faithful about the practice.

Confusion | 11:28 a.m. May 5, 2008

What is the difference in baptizing an infant in the Catholic church (the baby has no choice in the matter) or baptizing someone who has passed on (and also has no choice in this life)? To me it is the same since neither person had a choice to whether or not they are baptized in that particular religion.

to ajarizona | 11:29 a.m. May 5, 2008

The nun did not need to find a priest for the baptism, since in cases of near death ANYBODY is permitted to perform a baptism including a child, even self or non-catholic. So I now am forced to doubt your story. Had the baby died without benefit of baptism, God's grace would have been sufficient. Unbaptized aborted fetuses are also expected to receive grace.

Jason | 11:35 a.m. May 5, 2008

I suspect a coverup. Maybe some of the records reveal a medieval precedent for the Catholic Priesthood's contemporary struggle with celibacy.

SammieB | 11:36 a.m. May 5, 2008

Maybe this is the Lord's way of making us reach out to those of another faith to get this work done. How many of us have done genealogy work and never said anything to our family member's that are of another faith. The spirit of Elijah is to also reach across those family lines and share the gospel. (All the Anti-Mormons will pick that statement apart). I really think that those members who are doing research and sharing with their families the chioce and the meaning behind the ordinances will still have success. It is now time for us to just bridge the gap in our families and ask for help from someone of another faith with respect and humility, something that alot of LDS still need to learn.

Why? | 11:39 a.m. May 5, 2008

I am so surprised by this move. It really does seem so vindictive and territorial. I am not bothered that Catholics, Baptists, or others pray for my soul. It just seems a little weird to me. I think Pres. Monson try to contact the Pope.

Genealogy is important to people for more reasons than just temple work. Some people jsut want to know about their ancestors.

Alex | 11:43 a.m. May 5, 2008

I don't see any reason why this issue can't be short lived. Hopefully, we'll talk about it with the Catholic Church and get this resolved. If it isn't...oh well. The records do belong to the Catholic Church and they can do with them as they please. In that case, we'll have to go another route to get the information. Regardless of what happens, we'll get the work done eventually with or without the Catholic records.

If our determination to do work for the dead is considered arrogant, then perhaps we should do a whole lot more of it.

Quit whinning!!!! | 11:42 a.m. May 5, 2008

The Catholic church DOES in fact own the parish records, their people kept them up to date and have archived them. They have every right to do with them whatever they want to do. It's not like they have burned them in some act of defiance! And you don't "OWN" your ancestors, they were individuals NOT property. Instead of complaining about the Catholic church's decision on this site, why don't you look for ways to explain to the Catholic church both here and in Rome the importance of the archives BEYOND temple ordinances??

Mind you manners | 11:43 a.m. May 5, 2008

To "All of this assuming." To use your logic, the Lord should never have performed the Atonement, or at least for 'select few' who would have received it and Him.

Tia | 11:46 a.m. May 5, 2008

The difference is that the baby can grow up and leave if it wants. The deceased has no say in the matter. It is not a vindictive move, it is one that is attempting to protect its parishoners. They've had numerous complaints!

Chance | 11:46 a.m. May 5, 2008

Protectionism is at the root of this conflict. It is unfair to the millions of people around the world who genuinly need or want access to these records to help them perform the research of their ancestors. I hope that the members of the Catholic church recognize this for what it is and do a bit of complaining. The Catholic church appropriated the killing of anyone who does not accept Jesus as the Christ for many years during the crusades. During this time they advocated the stealing of indigineous riches and sending it back to the pope (I mean the King of Spain.) If they are willing to overlook the atrocities they have committed in times past, why then can they justify this action? It is such a small thing to them financially. Must be something else behind it.

Sad Catholic | 11:48 a.m. May 5, 2008

I'm Catholic in Salt Lake City and have spent countless hours in your library pouring over the names of my relatives. I have nothing but good to say about your genealogical recording system and the kind folks who operate it. It's sad for me to think my own church is now going to stifle this resource that's available to all and preferencial of none, with no strings attached. Today I'm a sad Catholic.

To SammieB | 11:51 a.m. May 5, 2008

You wonder why Catholics don't want to hand over records when you freely throw words around like "anti-mormon"? It comes down to religious records and privacy. Hitler used those records to send people to their death. The Catholics now simply refuse to allow that to happen again should catholic genocide be decided as the next good thing. Ask yourself why it was so important to baptize Adolf into your church?

I really don't understand | 11:54 a.m. May 5, 2008

Why are people complaining? Noone is saying that dead people are definitely joining the church. The point is to give them the chance to accept or reject LDS baptism. I would not be offended if a Muslim, Buddhist, Jew does something to save me after I die. Then I would have all my bases covered.

I'm Not Surprised... | 12:02 p.m. May 5, 2008

the the comments above have been written - this is a Utah newspaper. LDS church members are upset, not because of the geneology aspect as most mormons claim, but because they cannot claim additional members after they die. If I didn't want to be converted to the LDS religion - living in Utah - with all the pressure and condemnation (yes, it's true .... pay attention to your youth and what is said to their non-mormon friends), why oh why would I want to 'belong' and 'baptised' after I'm dead. I believe that if I live my life as God has shown us how to through his own son Jesus, I will be with him again when I die. The promise of belonging to my own kingdom (oh, wait...I'm a woman) ok, so my husbands kingdom where he is God of his own universe (or whatever), to any other religion (except LDS) is absurd. And to the comment about the Catholic religion being man-based? that's funny! really, really funny! especially if you say it and belong to the LDS faith. If you want to 'baptise' someone, do it while they are alive and leave the rest of us in peace.

RE: I really don't understand | 12:06 p.m. May 5, 2008

It is because the Mormon church is walking in and saying that the deceased needs saving bc they joined the wrong church.

How can you NOT find that offensive? Especially if you were a holocaust victim who died for what they believed?

Verl Doman | 12:07 p.m. May 5, 2008

Dear My Question,

Your question: "I'm still trying to figure out why so many faiths believe their God isn't "god" enough to save those who die without being baptized/receiving rites in mortality?"

Answer: I suppose most would agree with your premise that our all-powerful Father in Heaven could abolish the need for baptism if he chose, but it was his Son who said: "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (John 3:3) Rather than change the gospel and dilute the need to "fulfill all righteousness" (Matthew 3:15)he instituted a way for us to serve our forfathers by identifying them and then to "baptized for the dead" as mentioned by Paul, but not understood by the so called Christian Churches.(see 1 Corinthians 15:29)

Would you counsel God on how to provide salvation for his Children? I like the fact that he is consistant in the requirements to enter his presence but merciful enough to provide a way for all.

I have a feeling the Pope will change this policy when he realizes that the LDS Church sponsors the largest geneological library in the world open to everyone's family research.

Anonymous | 12:10 p.m. May 5, 2008

They will remain hidden along with the priest sodomy evidence.

How frustrating | 12:12 p.m. May 5, 2008

It is sad but true, the parish records of the Catholic Church DO belong to the Catholic Church. They can do with them what they will.
This will be frustrating to the many Catholics who want to do their own geneology, as Geneological Research is Europe's number one hobbie.
The Catholic Church is the owner of a great many other historical texts of all kinds, that would be of extreme value to the rest of the world. and they won't "turn those over", either.
That is just the way it is. It is THEIR PROPERTY.

Faith needed | 12:12 p.m. May 5, 2008

I truly believe that most Catholics are good hearted people who would give willingly of their substance to help another. LDS people would likewise be as generous. If only they could see the true intent here.....love. Perhaps the Catholic church is showing some true colors here. Unfortunately, it is a hard thing to change once it is committed.

Disgusted | 12:22 p.m. May 5, 2008

I canï¿½t believe all the posters that think this is somehow about the Catholic Church wanting money. Your accusations are vulgar and despicable. This is about a theological difference and a response to worldwide complaints of LDS baptizing deceased members of another faith. People of other faiths are not beneath you, and clamoring to be baptized into your one and only ï¿½trueï¿½ church. This erroneous practice smacks of elitism and arrogance, and you have absolutely no entitlement to do anything with the records, let alone take over control and maintenance as some here have suggested. I read pages of posts and I am disgusted and dismayed. Youï¿½ve illustrated a depressing example of LDS members who are critical, condescending, self-righteous and unscrupulous.

Tom Rod | 12:27 p.m. May 5, 2008

Ok, things are way off base here. Here is an objective view of the matter.

The LDS church feels very strongly that they must baptize and seal all the folks that that anyone on earth has record of, getting back to Adam if they can.

Catholic folk take offense to this, as the LDS Church uses their records in lieu of any other records to establish birth/death/wedding dates, etc. Perhaps they see acquiescing these records as acknowledgment that the LDS Church has authority, which threatens their hegemony on claims of authority.

LDS Folk don't see what the big deal is, because if they lack authority, all is moot, and if they don't, then they're right and they really are saving souls from the damnation of stagnation.

So really this is a power play over hegemony of authority. Only one can be true. If the Catholic is right, the Protestants are all wrong since they broke off a dead branch. If the LDS are right, then the Protestants are still wrong since the authority was lost and can't be restored through good feelings.

Thinking of this makes me think of the Rocky soundtrack. Weird eh? Hope this works itself out.

The Gift | 12:31 p.m. May 5, 2008

I fail to see why sharing a spiritual gift with an ancestor should cause anyone grief.

For those who don't believe in the gift, the gift is meaningless.

For those who do believe in the gift, the person being offered the gift still has the choice to accept or reject the gift.

LDS library | 12:32 p.m. May 5, 2008

I am not permitted to look at every record in the lds library either.

jt | 12:34 p.m. May 5, 2008

the church records for any church is none of any other man made religions business. only Jesus knows and yes, there is only one heaven, read your bibles.

olive | 12:34 p.m. May 5, 2008

As a Catholic who was ALMOST baptized mormon before I did some research I must say that I wholeheartedly support this decision. Of course mormons won't understand why people don't want to join their church. If I wanted to join I would actually open the door to the missionaries when they come knocking on the door all the time. There' my answer, "NO." I also don't need my children or otherwise thinking that I might have made a mistake and baptize me when I'm already dead. I've already been baptized and have made my decisions for myself. It completely undermines a person's decisions that they make in life to baptize them when they are dead. If a person or their religion choose not to make it easier to let mormons baptize their parishioners then it's their decision. It's all about respect and a doing your dealings honestly.

jt | 12:39 p.m. May 5, 2008

so in other words you all are saying that it is ok to tell a 17 year old mentally handicapped child (by missionaries) that she is not baptized as she was baptized by a christian minister and not a mormon? that is a bunch of garbage. they told my daughter that and i cried as they are so misguided. the only thing that christians are afraid of that has to do with the LDS church is that you are misled and need to see the truth and if you don't then you will pay the price. I know in my spirit and my heart His truth.

meri | 12:45 p.m. May 5, 2008

To Orion, It Cuts Both Ways, and all the others who think the same way:

It would not bother me in the least if the FLDS redid the ordinance work for my ancestors or any of the prophets. It would not bother me in the least if the Catholic church declared one of them a Saint. It would not bother me if any or all of them were baptized into another church.

I would simply acce3pt it as a sign of love, respect, and caring, but nothing more. Because I don't believe that any of those things mean anything, they can do it all they want. They can light candles, cannonize them, or do whatever in their names.

It is amazing to me that people don't understand that, whether they are in the church or not.

Alex | 12:53 p.m. May 5, 2008

Disgusted:

Have you ever prayed for anyone's soul? Have you ever wanted something for someone else that they don't have--something of great value to you? If you have, you obviously must be elitist, arrogant, critical, condescending, self-righteous and unscrupulous, just like me. If doing work for the dead makes me all these things, then I am guilty as charged. So what.

Look, we aren't taking control of any records. The Catholic Church still owns them. We are photographing them, documenting them, transcribing them, and digitizing them. They are available to all. Certainly, we have our purposes in doing the work for them, yet none of the work we do is or ever has been invasive of anyone's freedom to choose. We are not hurting anyone. We are not cursing anyone. If we are false, then none of the dead have anything to worry about, will they. If we are true, then none of the dead have anything to worry about either.

Religious Tension | 12:53 p.m. May 5, 2008

The Mormon Church should respect the wishes of Catholics' and stop baptizing their dead. Actually, they should respect everyone's wishes about this matter, regardless of religion.

I find it odd the LDS Church's to practice superstition trumps the wishes of those who don't want their relatives names used for their purposes.

DEAR JD: | 12:57 p.m. May 5, 2008

All religions are man made.

Dee Pearce | 12:57 p.m. May 5, 2008

For many years, the churchs, Catholic or Protestant, were the only record keepers, they were the "state archives." What may result from this decision is the blocking of access by family history researchers to the only source of records about their families. How will a parish priest or other Catholic record keeper know if he is being approached by a "forbidden user", are all researchers to be asked whether they are LDS? I suspect Catholic nations may have to step in an remind the Catholic Church that while they kept the records, they did so as a state agency. By adopting this position, the Catholic Church may be inviting government intervention which they might wish to avoid. Will national archives that have taken possession of Catholic records to preserve them as "state records" comply with the Catholic hope that the LDS will not be given access to those records? I doubt it.

Dear The Gift | 12:59 p.m. May 5, 2008

The gift you are talking about exists as nothing else but fiction, which is why the gifts is truly meaningless. No one accepts or chooses the gift because when you die...well, you die. It comes with the territory.

Paul | 1:00 p.m. May 5, 2008

I am LDS. We must respect each other's beliefs. This was a decision by the Catholic church, and we will respect it. Practice charity folks. Live your religion!

Ben | 1:01 p.m. May 5, 2008

I want to make a few points.

I don't understand what is wrong with family members that love those that have passed on and want to provide them with the opportunity to be baptized into the church that they believe is true.

I don't understand why people are getting upset and offend that family members want to do this posthumous baptism that give their ancestors a choice.

I have tried to see this from their point of view. I have thought to myself. If I died and I had members of my family of another faith pray for me or provide some other act of love or service that they believed would help me after my death. I would feel loved.

jt | 1:04 p.m. May 5, 2008

i would be horrified if someone tried to baptize my grandmother mormon. she was a very devout christian and i know i will be with her in heaven. i do not understand why the LDS believe there are seperate heavens. i never read that in the bible. probably because it is untrue. i will continue to pray for your salvation, all LDS. Only God knows the truth. No man made religion whether it be LDS or catholic know. God does not segregate.

Dave McPhail | 1:04 p.m. May 5, 2008

Having worked for the Family History Dept. of The LDS Church for over 18 years, and having done genealogical research using Catholic parish registers in that research as well as producing presentations focusing on the collection of Catholic records already microfilmed. . . I can say this is a sad (and already seen illogical move) move by the Catholic Church. BUT- the Family History Library already has a TON of already microfilmed Catholic parish registers. Most of what the library DOESN'T have is from parishes that historically don't want their register microfilmed anyway. . . so it's all a moot point.

kg | 1:04 p.m. May 5, 2008

Pardon me for not reading 9 pages of comments - I hope more information comes out on this one way or the other cause I don't know how the Catholic Church intends to determine who is LDS. Unless they use blanket stereotypes of anyone from Utah, last name of Smith, etc... Will they require background checks or copies of membership?

Anonymous | 1:05 p.m. May 5, 2008

Maybe they are mad the LDS won't baptize the infants they didn't get around to?

Funny, no scriptural reference on that one.

David Bradley | 1:08 p.m. May 5, 2008

Sj Bobkins said, "If the Catholic church believes that the LDS Church is in error, what does it matter?"

To this I say that it matters greatly! The god(s) of the Mormon Church is(are) NOT the God of the Catholic Church. We are warned by God the Father in the commandments not to put any other god above him. We are warned in Deuteronomy 32 not to get involved with pagan or other "gods" and that any power behind those gods was based on demonic powers hostile to God. Giving in to these rituals and saying they have no detrimental effect is proven to be a poor decision by the fact that some Catholics are already convinced that dabbling with this false god is harmless.

Interesting | 1:10 p.m. May 5, 2008

There seems to be a misunderstanding of LDS temple practices. No dead person is being forced to join the LDS Church in the afterlife. They are being offered the opportunity one last time, and one assumes that it might be a bit more convincing after they are dead.

It is sad that the Catholic Church is cutting off this resource to both LDS and non-LDS people alike, but ultimately it is their choice and I am sure the LDS Church will respect their decision if no compromise can be reached.

Have Shoah victims been baptized against the wishes of the many branches of Judaism? Yes. Did the LDS Church order this to be done? No. But it can't control what every single individual member does.

If the Jehovah's Witnesses would like to try converting me after I'm dead, they are welcome to do it. I can't say that what doesn't bother me won't bother other people, though. I am sure that God will work everything out in the end, He being omnipotent and all.

I am saddened to see so many cruel words here towards both the LDS and the Catholics. Christ preached love, not bigotry, snide comments and hate.

Genealogist | 1:17 p.m. May 5, 2008

@Disgusted: When this is not a question of money, please explain why a lot of microfilms with catholic records are restricted for the use outside of europe since the 70`s? What is the difference between a LDS Member in the US who wants to baptize his ancestors an a LDS in europe? BTW: I`m not a LDS, i`m catholic. A visit to a family history center costs minimum 8,50ï¿½ for one film (3 Months) including thepermission to take pictures, the visit in a catholic archive starts with a fee 5,50 ï¿½ just for sitting there an 2 books to view mostly without the permission to take pictures (for 1 Day). Any additional book costs 2 ï¿½. [Fees may varie from archive to archive]. Ironically they are sometimes (because of saving the old books) giving out microfilm copies of the LDS to visitors. It`s the only please in europe to use them, because of their own restrictions. Will they stop using the microfilm copies because theyï¿½re from the LDS?

Dave | 1:19 p.m. May 5, 2008

Good luck researching any ancestor who lived in a country where the Catholic church was the official records keeping body of the state gov't!

Alex | 1:20 p.m. May 5, 2008

olive:

"It completely undermines a person's decisions that they make in life to baptize them when they are dead. "

If you don't want baptism there, the ordinance becomes null and void. That is your choice. No decision is undermined. That has always been the doctrine too. As one who has done her research, you ought to have known that.

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