Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Re: Re: Offended? Why? | 10:26 p.m. May 4, 2008

"If you, as a distant Mormon relative, baptize my dead Catholic grandmother, it's every bit my family's business."

What if she's my grandmother too? Are you worried about my family being offended that you're saying Catholic prayers for her? I doubt it. Somehow your being offended by our Mormonism is supposed to command more respect than our desire to do something for her that we think is important. That's hardly fair.

We're not infringing on anyone's rights by researching our family and performing ordinances for them. We have just as much claim on our ancestors as anyone else, Catholic or not.

And if Grandma doesn't want that baptism, she doesn't have to take it. I don't know why this is so hard to understand.

Anonymous | 10:27 p.m. May 4, 2008

As a former catholic and a latin, I was sad to read about the Catholic church refusal to provide these records. Americans and Europeans may have no problem with that but for other regions such as Central and South America, Spain and Italy, this is certainly a big deal. In Latin-America, it was the Catholic Church the only entity who carried those records. In most countries, the government started to take control of them since 1900 once goverments started to separate the church from the state. It's so unfair and no right that they are denying access to those records that are supposed to be public. Whatever I do with that information is my business, not theirs. But I have faith that someday, these records will be freed and we will have access to them. The work of the Lord can't be stopped. In the meantime, put your shoulder to the wheel!!

cch | 10:30 p.m. May 4, 2008

Wow! What prideful and hateful comments. I'm LDS and I am embarrassed. Comments with tones like these will only further convince the Catholic leadership that they are doing the right thing. Way to go.

Comments continue below

Re:Council at Nicaea | | 10:34 p.m. May 4, 2008

Pope Sylvester I sent two priests as his official legate representatives, Vitus and Vicentius, who signed the canonical records of the Council. More than 300 Bishops attended, but just two priests with authority to act as emmissaries of the Pope. Bishop Ossius of Cordoba is believed to have accompanied them to preside over the council. You can read Ossius' biography--"Ossius of Cordobaï¿½ by Victor De Clercq.

Andy | 10:49 p.m. May 4, 2008

What a wonderful opportunity now for the average Latter Day Saint to become better friends with the average Catholic. This way Latter Day Saints can help Catholics with their search for their roots with the resources available to Latter Day Saints & Catholics can help Latter Day Saints with the resources available only to Catholics.

Dear My Questions... | 10:50 p.m. May 4, 2008

If God was not "tied" by laws, then:

1. You would have no assurance that God wouldn't decide to just do away with all of us for good. How long could a god watch all our garbage and not just throw in the towel? After all, he would be god, and have no obligation to us.

2. Why would God witness the torture, beating and humilitation of His only Begotten Son if there were some other option? The law had to be followed. We then, are indebted to Him, our Father, and must obey His commandments, as He has said.

It cannot be had both ways.

Just some observations.

Rich | 10:56 p.m. May 4, 2008

If the LDS church does not have the authority from God to perform baptisms for the dead, these ordinances are of no effect and harm nobody. The Catholic Church should look for ways to cooperate with LDS to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ rather than worry about LDS temple practices. There is a trend to abandon all religion as well as the morality that comes with it. The Pope surely realizes that Europe is becoming highly agnostic and atheistic, and the U.S. is becoming more so. Some of my ancestors were Catholic, and I should have the right to view the records of my ancestors. The LDS do not deny this right to Catholics. Also, FLDS and RLDS members also can utilize LDS family history resources for those who are wondering. The LDS feel that if somebody performs an ordinance for a dead relative without God's authority, that ordinance is of no effect.

True Blue | 11:00 p.m. May 4, 2008

Funny how current research in Egypt is uncovering many documents that show early Christians believed in, practiced and taught baptism for the dead.

Just the same as Peter talking about it in the New Testament.

This is NOT NEW doctrine, it is surprising many non-LDS gospel researchers as they uncover many old documents that support MANY of Joseph Smith's teachings.

Not only that, but NONE of the early Christian documents being found teach contrary to Joseph's teachings!

The Gospel of Jesus Christ will continue to be proven by research for those who desire to read it. But it is only the power of the Book of Mormon that will convert you through the Holy Ghost.

It matters not to anyone else if you believe it, It IS TRUE. And you are the only one missing out on the teachings, ordinances and knowledge by ignoring or fighting it.

Mohan | 11:02 p.m. May 4, 2008

This is amazing. Of course no Mormon would care if another Church wanted to light a candle for their ancestors. We would think it is sweet. It certainly wouldn't hurt us or offend us in any way. It would make me smile.

And for the Catholic Church to do this is like cutting off your own nose to spite your face. All you do is keep people of all faiths from being able to locate their family lines and fulfill the Spirit of Elijah. Mormons come in free of charge and photograph millions of records at no cost to the Catholic Church. Who else is going to do that? This will be short lived. Once they realize they cannot do this work without us they will reverse their very strange decision.

May God bless them to come to grips.

baptism | 11:02 p.m. May 4, 2008

Odd how some people think the Catholics now recognize the legitimacy of Mormon baptism. Former LDS members do frequently join the Catholic Church and must be re-baptized. The Church has never recognized Mormon baptism, as it is without authority. The Vatican just doesnï¿½t want you people using their parish records for your illegitimate posthumous rites. Itï¿½s really bizarre how most LDS here, think they are entitled records that donï¿½t belong to them. The frustration of this announcement must be too much.

Returned Missionary | 11:02 p.m. May 4, 2008

Because of my mission for the LDS church, I had the opportunity to learn a little about Catholicism. I hope all of you know that the Catholic church in my opinion came closer to the truth than any other church besides the LDS faith. Now I can sit here and argue about some of their doctrines such as infant baptism, payed clergy, paying for your sins to be forgiven you and the doctrine concerning life after death but I'm not going to. I'll I can truly say about this situation is that the Pope is out of line. The LDS church and Catholic church have been for a long time now, in good standing with each other and this is an unnecessary decision on the Popes part. This would prove as further evidence that the Catholic faith has started to believe in our "Baptisms for the Dead." Otherwise, why are they so concerned about it. No matter what religion you are you still need proper authority to do anything in the name of God. John the Baptist had it , Moses had it, Abraham had it, Melchizedek had it, Adam had it and all of us must have it.

Re: Dear Steve | 11:11 p.m. May 4, 2008

>

Your kidding, right? How immature. There are 266 Popes, including the first Pope--St. Peter. Instead of me listing all of them, try doing a quick search on Google for yourself.

good doctrine | 11:12 p.m. May 4, 2008

Peter declared the gospel was taught to the dead. Paul said the dead were baptized. Whats the problem? It seems to me the LDS are onto something.

Phillips | 11:15 p.m. May 4, 2008

Thank you, Neola, for your comments. This work we do is awesome. We do this out of love and to be of service to those who may want to accept it on the other side the the veil (life beyond the grave). If one does not want this opportunity they may reject it according to their choice. My son in law was Catholic until his father invited the missionaries in. The entire family embraced the gospel and are all members. They would want to give their family the opportunity to enjoy blessing of being together with their family, not as angels flying about but as real families, sealed together to be families as our Father in Heaven (and Jesus Christ) intended. I pray that the Catholic church would not feel so threatened as to close that information to anyone. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints opens the Family History Libraries to anyone-'Mormon', Catholic, Athiest....That is what God requires of us so we share rather than keeping the information only within our membership. Let's just pray that they would be forgiven for their mistrust and selfishness.

False accusers | 11:27 p.m. May 4, 2008

The LDS church has never claimed that baptizing on behalf of deceased ancestors automatically makes that individual a member of the church. Never. That is a false assumption by detractors who have only responded out of bitterness or hatred, certainly not informed.

Discrimination | 11:30 p.m. May 4, 2008

This is a crime against LDS beliefs.

If they don't believe it's true, then it shouldn't be able to hurt them.

If they did believe it's true, they would know that only those who accept the Gospel will have valid ordinances.

If they claim we are doing something which is wrong they would be wrong by the very bible they claim to believe upon.

"Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?"
"if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die."
"But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?"

The LDS church is the only church on this Earth to even remotely resemble the teachings of the bible.

Anonymous | 11:30 p.m. May 4, 2008

You'd think the Catholic church would be overjoyed that all of those children they claim went to limbo because they died at birth without a baptism would now have a chance to go to heavan. Oh well, that's apostasy for you.

john b | 11:31 p.m. May 4, 2008

i would like to know sence my fathers family back at least 1756 were catholic why i should not be able to get information on them for my own records not for bapbtism just be cause i chose to join the LDS Church

Ron | 11:33 p.m. May 4, 2008

As an active, practicing LDS member, I am ashamed and dismayed at this stream of arrogant, prideful comments from other apparently LDS members.

How quickly have you forgotten President Hinckley's many sermons to reach out in love to good people in all faiths, and his acknowledgments that they also have some of "The Truth." We may be troubled by this decision to withhold ancestral records, but these rancorous attacks on the Catholic church, the Pope, etc. do far more harm and are not Christlike.

It is this same chest-thumping, boastful "we-will-crumble-you" arrogance that generates roadblocks in approaching non-member friends who've experienced it, or which makes my non-member friends and family regret their move to Utah. It is this same "holier than thou" LDS attitude which I suspect at least exacerbated the anti-Mormon feelings in pioneer Missouri, and which I know caused divisions in my own family.

You may respectfully disagree with Catholic doctrine, but I assure you that they do have some (as we view it) of the Truth , that they stand with us on many issues of vital importance to the family and human dignity, and that such negative comments cause more harm than you can imagine.

Rosie | 11:44 p.m. May 4, 2008

Neither my husband nor any of his family are LDS. They have been so grateful that I have been doing pedigree research on their Catholic ancestors from Louisiana, particularly after hurricane Katrina occured. They don't have the time, or frankly, the interest to do it themselves. I will be sorry to tell them that I may no longer be able to help them, due to this new policy of their church. :-/

Genealogist | 11:44 p.m. May 4, 2008

I have to repeat myself: you have still access to the archives of the catholic church and this will never stop to happen! Nobody is asking you for your religion when you enter a catholic archive. It`s now a bit harder for the american genealogists and LDS Members, but there allready now a lot of records not microfilmed by the LDS. Who has for example complained about the protestant church in germany? They refuse to let their records filmed since the seventies, because they think the LDS are not christian and a syncretic religion. Most catholic Dioceses in Poland allready refused microfilming their records. The pope is just going a step further after writing the essay about not accepting the LDS Baptizm of living people (as a leader of the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith"). Take a deep breath and plan your next visit to europe and the church archives here.

all hail the moderator | 11:45 p.m. May 4, 2008

I think that the posthumous baptism records
will be used later to show how many LDS members were there historically,

it seems like stealing souls

shawilli | 11:50 p.m. May 4, 2008

The parish records belong to the catholic church, they are theirs to do with as they see fit, it is a prvillage NOT a right for the LDS Church to have access to them.I hope that this policy may be changed in the future but, for the present it is what it is and we must simply accept that. The work of the Temple goes on and on even without access to Catholic parish records, we shall simply move into another area of labor for those whose records are available to us. We shall have enough temple work ahead of us to last through the Millenium, so rather than cry foul lets move on and wait for the day when we can once again glean from the parish records the information we need. I am sure that Heaveanly Father knows of this matter and will deal with it in his own way and in his own due time.
Shawilli

Riley | 11:53 p.m. May 4, 2008

I was a catholic until age 21 when I converted to the LDS Church. I actually have no problem at all with this pronouncement, and I still have much geneological work to do. It will open up an honest dialogue on doctrinal truth that, as evidenced by this move, has not been had in the past. It will foster a better understanding of mutual beliefs and I'm confident that President Monson will find a way to prevail upon the leaders of the great Catholic faith to allow us (LDSs) to know our progenitors' histories. I am not worried and no one else should be either. The end has only to be played out...all will have an opportunity to accept or reject the restoration of the gospel. For my part, if I've offended my Catholic brethren and family I'd love to sit down and explain my motives, namely, to draw nearer to my predecessors thorugh temple work. I also would like to apologize for the missionaries in Colorado who defaced your monuments. I'm not sure if their actions had anything to do with the decision, but if so, I offer my personal regrets. God Bless.

Anonymous | 11:54 p.m. May 4, 2008

You folks who think the Catholic church is right, how would you feel if you were trying to research your ancestors, (it would be almost impossible to research without the Lds database.) and the LDS church said that you had to have a temple recomend to view? I would be upset as a non-member. They are my relatives. That is exactly what the Catholic church is saying. The Lds church is doing everyone a favor allowing ancestry research regardless of creed to search out ancestors from the comfort of their own computers. If you don't do geneology then it doesn't matter, however there are tons of people that do. I am not LDS but love geneology and would hate to have to go to a foreign country if the Lds church was doing that for free. I have found plenty of records off the database that would have cost me thousands to fly to the countries and search the records. I hope the Catholic church changes this bigoted policy.

Anonymous | 11:58 p.m. May 4, 2008

Temple work is not christian nor are these unauthorized baptisms. I think this is only yhe first we have seen of this with other christian faiths following suit.

re: Anonymous 11:54 | 12:20 a.m. May 5, 2008

"You folks who think the Catholic church is right, how would you feel if you were trying to research your ancestors, (it would be almost impossible to research without the Lds database.) and the LDS church said that you had to have a temple recomend to view? I would be upset as a non-member. They are my relatives."

Upset?...They are my relatives?

Hmmmm....I wonder if this is how a Catholic mother feels when she is denied entrance to the temple to witness the marriage of a child who converted to Mormonism?

Alex | 12:27 a.m. May 5, 2008

Anonymous:

If LDS temple work is neither christian nor authorized, then why would it matter? Heck, the genealogical records we record are available to the public as a service. Yep, they are available to you too if you wish. If I weren't a believing Latter-Day Saint, I would look at the LDS and say, "Hey, go ahead and knock yourself out. It is no skin off my nose."

no second chance | 12:35 a.m. May 5, 2008

"
Julie | 12:48 a.m. May 4, 2008
I'm still trying to figure out why it bothers people that mormons do baptisms for the dead if non-mormons don't believe that it has any effect."

"
amen | 1:10 a.m. May 4, 2008
I completely agree with Julie... If it is "erroneous" in their view, then what is the big deal?"

Because it is 'erroneous', or, a false doctrine. The same reason that we wouldn't worship another God, even though we don't believe in other Gods. It would have no effect beyond dishonoring the doctrine of worshiping Almighty God, and blaspheming. We know it to be a pagan practice, therefore we want no part of it.
Scripture plainly teaches that if one waits until they have died, they have waited too long. There are no second chances after death. This is why it is a big deal.

All Get Along | 12:39 a.m. May 5, 2008

This proves that religion is just one big fat source of contention in the world. Let's bulldoze ALL the churches and put in parks. Everybody get out and get some exercise and go be nice to your neighbors. Give your donations to an organization that helps the poor, starving and sick not into maintaining real estate. Then maybe you'll feel like getting off the prozac and find something better to do than gossip and judge your neighbors.

lie in the bed that you've made | 12:51 a.m. May 5, 2008

"
Still sane | 8:27 a.m. May 4, 2008
So once again "Christians" fight other "Christians" - oh, except the others don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian anyway. so, I guess it must be OK."

Yes, it is okay. We are all free to believe as we will. We are all responsible for our own faith and the doctrines that we choose to adhere to. LDS believe that others are wrong, so why do they find it strange that others believe that they are wrong? Please, let go of the persecution complex.

Julie | 12:58 a.m. May 5, 2008

The main negative response to my earlier comment seems to stem from a misunderstanding about the doctrine of baptism for the dead. Those for whom it is performed have a choice of whether or not they want to accept this ordinance. It is not revisionist history as claimed by one commentor because I believe the records of who has been baptized for the dead are kept private in the church. Mormons don't claim that anyone who has been baptized for the dead is now "mormon." In response to other criticism, feel free to baptize me into any other church or make me a member of any organization. I don't mind because I don't believe it has any eternal effect or consequences.

Dear Cuts Both Ways | 3:49 a.m. May 5, 2008

The LDS Church would not say one single thing about anothe Church doing baptism for the dead and rebaptizing our members because they think we have fallen from the truth. You apparently do not know the 11th article of faith where we allow others to practice their religion and ask the same of them to let us allow our religion.

I wonder if the catholic church believe in agency, the great and wonderful gift from God to make our own decision. If we baptize them and they don't wan that baptism then it is null and void.

GBH Quote | 4:26 a.m. May 5, 2008

President Gordon B. Hinckley: "If there is trouble, let us face it calmly. Let us overcome evil with good."

Sumiko Honda | 4:46 a.m. May 5, 2008

As a young Catholic, I don't think that the Vatican should engage in ecumenical dialog with any other branch of Christianity except for the Greek Orthodox. There are so many sects, groups, cults, and "churches" with traditions and views so different from Catholic and also from each other, that it is pointless waste of time.
Regardless if the LDS is offended by this new Vatican ruling, it was done to protect the private registry of members of Catholic parishes, and to keep bizarre practices away from the Catholic Church.
There is nothing wrong with wanting to protect your own faithful (Catholics)

marvic ilagan | 4:52 a.m. May 5, 2008

julie is right. and i know baptism for the dead is a doctrine of God.

To: No 2d Chance | 5:23 a.m. May 5, 2008

My understanding is that the Catholics have believed that the living have the opportunity to affect the amount of time that a deceased soul spends in Purgatory. The time might be reduced through prayers (prayer candles) and earlier there was sale of indulgences for the dead. This doctrine that the living can change the outcome for the dead is a "similar" teaching held by the the LDS church. Other similar teachings include Extreme Unction and LDS annointing of the sick. Of all other Christian faiths, I would think that the Catholics very well understand LDS ministrations in behalf of the dead. I think it is in their understanding, not their misunderstanding that they abhor the LDS practice. They understand the doctrines of authority and keys very well, and have a very deep concern for the outcome of a deceased soul now having the choice of which of the two churches to have membership in.

"Holy" Father | 5:46 a.m. May 5, 2008

The pope can't pray for the world - because that includes me (a mormon). If I wanted the pope to pray for the world (including me) then I would become a catholic. By the way, how does the catholic church have ownership over my ancestors? They are witholding info about my ancestors. . . talk about respect for the dead (and living).

Vicki | 5:51 a.m. May 5, 2008

Is there not something called free will? If the deceased person wanted to be Mormon, he/she would be. It's not for a "family" member to make that choice. That is an abomination in my book.

On Limbo | 6:09 a.m. May 5, 2008

While some Catholics might believe in Limbo, it was never Church Doctrine but people doctrine...like the Adam/God Doctrine, blood atonement and other teachings of the LDS Church.
As the Jewish people were offended by temple work for the dead, especially the Holocaust victims, why not wait until the Resurrection and allow these people to make the choice for themselves? Based on the size of past and present populations, we are not going to catch up as the temple currently functions. It really would be similar for the Catholics to approach the LDS Church to state that all LDS marriages are not valid and wish to give the children produced legitimacy by marrying the parents after their death into the Holy Roman Catholic Church. Would the LDS Church willingly hand over records? My magic eight-ball says "not likely."

Jim | 6:12 a.m. May 5, 2008

The Catholic Church doesn't have to give geneological data to anyone if they don't want to. Think of it as Catholic HIPAA. The records are personal and confidential unless those whose information is recorded and the organization keeping the records both agree to release the information. Don't like it? Get over it. You don't have a right to the information.

doug | 6:13 a.m. May 5, 2008

My step-father was a good Catholic boy from Park City, who became a Mormon in order to marry his first wife. Then she passed away. He married my mom, his second wife, and became a Catholic again (though we were not). He wanted to get back to his roots. He joined the Mormon church in order to get married to the woman he loved. He did not join because Catholicism was wrong, he joined because he was in love. Pretty common thing, actually. Tracks runs both ways.

I enjoy these stories in this forum about how someone was a Catholic and then became a Mormon. Well, I hate to tell you this but there are conversions that did not take quite so well.

And my step-father used to laugh about things that are taken a little too seriously here in this forum. And, I really can't blame him. Lots of humor here about knowing what happens after death.

Was it Mark Twain on his death bed that said: "Ah, now for the great adventure."

Anonymous | 6:13 a.m. May 5, 2008

A lot of you talk of the records not being available to family for historical purposes, lol. They still are, if you read the article it's available to true family members.

False on conversion | 6:15 a.m. May 5, 2008

To the person that Stated that the Catholic Church required rebaptism of all, that is patently false. The LDS Church claims they are not trinitarian, while other protestant churches claim they are trinitarian as well as the Catholic Church. So, the Catholic Church accepts protestant baptism while rejecting the non-trinitarian LDS baptism should come as a shock to no one.

Diana | 7:00 a.m. May 5, 2008

I live in Spain and work in a fHC here. We have a lot of Catholics come to the centre to look for their ancestors, some cannot due to the fact that some provinces are restricted by the Bishops in charge. LDS members have to write a letter to the Bishop asking permission to view films. If the filming now in progress here is cut off then many people are going to very sad, both Catholics and LDS.

Hey Vicki | 7:21 a.m. May 5, 2008

The family member can chose in the resurrection to convert and you don't need to insult the families of the deceased by doing the temple work now. It's just good manners. Remember though, if a person is a legitimate family member, the Catholic Church will be happy to give you ancestry information.

To: No 2d Chance | 7:26 a.m. May 5, 2008

You said, "Scripture plainly teaches that if one waits until they have died, they have waited too long. There are no second chances after death. This is why it is a big deal."

I Peter chapters 3 & 4 tells how the Gospel is preached to those who are dead. Christ came into the world (and also went to the afterworld) to redeem the world, not to condemn it -- even the disobedient spirits.

Would a loving God have created beings for the purpose of damning them when they made mistakes or, worse yet, because they never have had the chance to hear the Gospel. No loving human parent would do that to his children. Why would one worship a god with such a character as you are describing in your comment? The LDS teaching in controversy is only that baptism must be performed on earth and by proxy for those who are dead. The Atonement of Christ is a doctrine based on belief in the efficacy of a proxy offering. Baptism for the dead is a proxy offering because, "They without us cannot be saved."

No second chance? | 7:42 a.m. May 5, 2008

So what happens to all the folks who lived and died without a knowledge of Jesus Christ, people in the deepest jungles and outermost reaches of the world? Are they just out of luck?

Another question if anyone knows the answer- I can understand that the Catholic church "owns" the books or whatever the records are written on, but do they "own" the information? Is it even legal to withold this information from family members? Will they allow members of the Catholic church access to those records? And what is there to stop a Catholic who obtains the info from sharing with LDS families. (This is exactly the case with a dear Catholic lady I know of who does lots of family research in LDS family history centers. She is friendly with LDS and has no qualmes with sharing her research with her LDS family and friends for the purpose of temple work.)

I think the Lord knew this glitch would come up and He'll provide a way around it. I'm not thumbing my nose at the Pope. It just that this is the Lord's work and He'll make it possible to continue.

To: On Limbo | 7:51 a.m. May 5, 2008

1. If Catholics believe they have the keys for some blessing the LDS do not have, then they would be unloving if they did not share them, with whatever stipulations they want to make, with the LDS and others.

2. The LDS Church already shares all of it's births, deaths, and marriages for deceased members with the whole world via familysearch.org. These records are in the IGI there. If another church wants to perform ordinances for any of these people, they just have to go there, collect the data, and have at it. I wouldn't care a bit because, as a Latter-day Saint, I don't think they hold the keys or authority. As for what the LDS dead might think having two sets of ordinances performed for them (one by non-LDS proxy) -- they'll have to choose for themselves. These people aren't really dead. They are not incompetent. They are just elsewhere for the time being.

Alex | 7:53 a.m. May 5, 2008

I'm completely scratching my head on this one. I've had enormous respect for the Pope. I really do. I would hope that we can have a good conversation and work this out. At the worst, we are useful idiots cataloging the worlds genealogical records. At best, we are your friends assisting in helping the dead who died without the Gospel to be able to receive the full blessings.

Incidentally, it wouldn't bother me one bit if any church did a ritual for me in their church for my salvation. I'd be flattered.

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