Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

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Wilf | 8:06 a.m. May 4, 2008

I was baptized Catholic. They did not ask my permission to do so. I was 8 days old. But, no harm done, I was free to accept or reject it afterwards. So why would the Pope bother about someone being baptized "Mormon" posthumously, unable to agree or reject it here on earth? No harm done. If we believe there is a place up there, the person there can accept or reject it.

Perhaps all former and inactive Catholics (hundreds of millions) should request their names to be erased from the parish registers.

It is an illusion to think the Mormon church can cooperate with the present Pope. Years ago, in his former position, he already directed the invalidation of Mormon baptism as Christian.

Jewish | 8:09 a.m. May 4, 2008

It seems that the Jewish people are also offended by the actions of the LDS church in baptizing Holocaust victims.

What I don't understand is why you LDS don't "get" it.

Jerry Williamson | 8:11 a.m. May 4, 2008

Is it a good idea not to allow a person the right to have the records of his direct line ancestors?
I would have no problem with the Catholic Church
saying a prayer or performing some work of love for my benefit in the eternal world to come. To not allow a person access to the records of his ancestors is not in harmony with the teachings of
civilized people

Comments continue below

Joe W. | 8:11 a.m. May 4, 2008

"Catholics" are told NOT to give their baptism information to ANY Church - but guess which one makes headlines?

Blindly following wayward traditions from long ago will come back to roost... As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

wrz | 8:13 a.m. May 4, 2008

>>And Julie is right on --- what are they worried they will lose, if they DON'T believe the LDS have any authority? But if the LDS baptisms ARE God's command and therefore effective, wouldn't you want to embrace that? Clear thinking requires one or the other, not both.<<

Catholics take it as an affront or challenge to the authenticity of their religion. If they allow LDS baptisms they are acquiescing to the LDS claim of authenticity. Catholics believe that dead Catholics need no further assistance to get to heaven. As do other religions, I'm sure.

Same with the Jews who refuse to allow proxy baptisms for Jewish progenitors.

Ed | 8:17 a.m. May 4, 2008

All should remember who is really in charge, watch and wait. I cannot help but think of the need of one person who has passed on.

Amateur genealogist | 8:20 a.m. May 4, 2008

I dabble in genealogy, and do not consider myself an expert, but have found a great deal of information through familysearch.org and ancestry.com etc. that has also enabled me to find several "cousins" that I am now in contact with. We exchange information. We are all of different religious backgrounds. If they want to perform any religious service for any of my ancestors they may. My understanding is that my "people" have to accept or reject this personally, so it is of no effect, and they will not be listed as being "Mormon" or counted in the total membership of that Church.

Many of my lines are at a dead stop because of lost and/or destroyed records, particularly the Catholic lines going into Ireland. The Mormon Church provides a great service by filming them and making them available to everyone who wants to see them.

I am grateful when any of my relatives, of many different faiths, say they will pray for me when I am ill or going through sad times. The prayers of the righteous, of any faith, are made in faith and love, and are heard by our God, Father in Heaven, or however we address him.

akl | 8:21 a.m. May 4, 2008

We should turn the other cheek and continue to support their aid societies through the LDS Humanitarian Services. I wonder if that would be of interest to the AP--they'll take our money to support their causes.

Primary Reason | 8:21 a.m. May 4, 2008

The primary reason of collecting names is not for genealogy but for temple work. Please do not lie Losing Track!

ajarizona | 8:20 a.m. May 4, 2008

Alrighty then...

Catholics have banned the Mormons from their Parish records, because, they cannot accept their doctrines.
(1 Corinthians 15:29)

"Ve have vays to deal vith heretics"!

Apparently, "Aversion Therapy" from one religion to another is now the name of the game?

If so, then can we now expect a few edicts from the LDS Church regarding Catholics?

1-Catholics are now hereby banned from using the Family History Center, it's satellite centers and it's data base for Genealogical research.
They will now have to find other resources to trace their roots.

2-Mormons shall not sell or trade precious metals like gold and silver, to the Catholics, for they may use them to create a Cross or a Cruciifix.
And also, no beads, for they may be used in the Rosary, all doctines which are contrary to Mormon beliefs.

3-Also grains and grapes are not to be sold, for they may eventually be used for the Eucharist and the doctrine of Transubstantiation is just not acceptable to Mormons.

4-Also, water and bird baths, must not be sold to Catholics, for they may eventually be used for Infant Baptisms, which is also unacceptable to Mormons.

Live and Let Live

ajarizona

Travis | 8:23 a.m. May 4, 2008

Let them hold back the records if they wish. We should respect the beliefs of others.
The time will come that all information will be available to us, and if certain groups take much of the information that we currently have, that time in which there is infinite information available will approach us more quickly.
I look forward to that time, so I don't mind when people try to take away our ability to perform God's work. Our God will bring that ability back to us.

Can't believe it! | 8:24 a.m. May 4, 2008

Congratulations to the Pope. He has made great strides in setting family history research back several decades. Now that we have computer technology to help in this effort by millions of people worldwide who want to find their ancestors, he will protect the dead Catholics from this fate (worse than death?).

Maybe he is worried about the tourism industry since so many genealogists vacation in Salt Lake City to have access to the fantastic records that serve members of every (or no) faith. The library doesn't even ask at the door to see proof of membership (or proof of non-membership in a particular faith).

Now, people can go to a particular parish wherever in the world their ancestors lived and search directly, but only if they can prove they are not LDS. How will this be accomplished? Very shortsighted.

For years the LDS Church has made monumental efforts to ease this research. Now, when people of all faiths, economic strata, or inclination can search without the money and time that would be required to search directly, the Pope has done his part to stop this progress. Leave family search to those who are wealthy and Catholic or Non-LDS at least.

Roman Catholic view | 8:25 a.m. May 4, 2008

I would like to contribute that when our family lost it's family records in a house fire many years ago we were unable to obtain any assistance from the diocese in attempting to relocate details of christening, confirmation and marriage. Nor was a papal blessing at the time of marriage capable of being traced although we have photographs of this.
So this is in many ways a restatement of something. What concerns me is that it appears to target another faith; this is regrettable but not entirely surprising.
So far as I am aware there is interfaith cooperation in preserving records worldwide. How sad that the Roman Catholic Church cannot appreciate this. Reminds me of the joke Dave Allen used to tell about the wall in heaven "It's for the Catholics they think they are the only ones here" says St Peter.
Thanks to all those LDS who help Irish Catholics like us to find our ancestry, you are our only help and are appreciated, just not by yer man in Rome!

Come on LDS folks | 8:25 a.m. May 4, 2008

Let everyone belong to whichever religion they choose. If someone converts from Catholicism to the LDS church, they just might bring their records with them and decide to turn their ancestors' records over to the LDS church. If they don't, then leave the Catholics alone...they aren't YOUR records to have.

Still sane | 8:27 a.m. May 4, 2008

So once again "Christians" fight other "Christians" - oh, except the others don't believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christian anyway. so, I guess it must be OK.

Dick Hillenbrand | 8:35 a.m. May 4, 2008

Devastating!

This is so parochial and mean. Hey, Pope, lighten up! We NEED this information for Family History Research!

Denny Andrews | 8:35 a.m. May 4, 2008

FOIP.
I do not want the catholic church sharing contact information with other organisations I might be interested in. I do not wish to be emailed when a new version is available. i do not wish to download google toolbar. I do not wish to be baptised mormon now or in the hereafter, and if you do it anyway, sorry about your luck.

Denver Reader | 8:37 a.m. May 4, 2008

Amazing that ï¿½CNS has ï¿½grave reservationsï¿½ï¿½ï¿½ I have grave reservations, too, at a cemetery. But, I also have grave reservations about a religion that automatically condemns all those who never had a chance for baptism in this life. Doesnï¿½t matter that said persons never even heard of that religion, they are still condemned to at least purgatory. How do they get out? By the good will and grace of God? What about the requirement for baptism? Many, many questions for the Catholics on this one.

To what was Paul referring on baptisms for the dead? How does that august church explain the archeological reports coming out from Egypt on the very practice by early Christian saints (do a web search for details)?

And then that same church changed the ordinances of baptism from immersion to something other than immersion (thus Isaiah's prophecy fulfilled).

Nope. For me many, many "grave reservations" on Catholic practices. But then, not having been baptized Catholic, I will willingly be in hell with my ancestors than support their beliefs.

Just Me | 8:41 a.m. May 4, 2008

To Julie and the rest. I am Catholic and the way I see it, to baptize someone after they have passed is disrespectful. If someone wanted to be Mormon, they would be. What right does anyone have to make that choice for them after they are gone? A comment above said "I don't want anyone re-writing my history after I am gone". That is right on! Be respectful!

Fiddler | 8:42 a.m. May 4, 2008

I wouldn't mind having my family information copied by LDS. However, looking at it the other way round, does the LDS church allow Roman Catholics to copy LDS members' names for any purpose?

jtm | 8:47 a.m. May 4, 2008

If teh LDS chuch is true there will be a way the records will come forth if it's not then don't worry about it.

NotDan | 8:48 a.m. May 4, 2008

Have a little compassion you guys. First of all, the concept of priesthood authority to baptize is foreign to most christian religions. To most protestants, they accept that you are baptized if you have been baptized by any other christian church, not just theirs.

Second, how do you think the LDS would feel if the Southern Baptists went through the LDS records and started divorcing all our polygamous marriages from the 1800's to save their souls? Don't you think that would raise some ire? Don't you think that would indicate some disrespect on their part of for our history, our membership, our doctrine? Even though you know they don't have the authority to unseal their marriages, there would be some extreme consternation. Don't you think those individuals would be excluded from using the LDS Genealogy Library?

You know that certain Jewish organizations have already made the LDS church stop the wholesale baptism of the victims of the holocaust. Its a respect issue. Respect for victims, respect for believers, respect for the living families. So try to see things from both sides before the knee jerk conclusions.

mbt6 | 8:51 a.m. May 4, 2008

DCC, Please tell, educate us all so that we "understand", based on what you have said, we understand then there is no problem.

lithophysa1 | 8:51 a.m. May 4, 2008

How would you feel if scientologiists, as a gift of love, began to un-baptize or rebaptize Mormons after death and to consecrate the dead soul to the god, Xenu?

Just a thought | 8:52 a.m. May 4, 2008

Leave it up to Elijah.

Bibical Practice | 9:03 a.m. May 4, 2008

I Corinthians 15:29 Baptism for the dead, If is the most glorious subject, why did Paul exclude himself by saying "they" practice it and not "we" or "I" practice it? He was addressing and early cultic practice to prove the Resurrection. no second chance(Hebrews 9:27)

Re: my questions | 9:08 a.m. May 4, 2008

Are you asking because you really want to know?

A vaccine has no effect for someone unwilling to get the shot.

A student will never learn a lesson he's unwilling to hear.

A child can never enjoy playing with a toy she's unwilling to play with.

This remains true even if the shot or the lesson or the toy are "perfect" and "all powerful" in their ability to prevent disease, teach, or provide enjoyment. God will force no one into heaven, only the willing. God provides salvation AND agency.

Baptism is God's way of inviting His children to physically demonstrate their commitment to follow Him (that "willingness" factor). Of course He could save anyone regardless, but he respects our agency so much, that he will not save us unless we have said "yes please" in our hearts and with our actions (at least baptism).

God himself said, "except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God"

And if you consider that every individual regardless of faith or obedience will be resurrected (saved from death) with a perfect body, you will see that God's omnipotence is real despite our actions.

Victor Stanton | 9:08 a.m. May 4, 2008

Mormons have regularly blasphemed what other religions hold sacred. And it's more than just the acts of irresponsible young missionaries. In recent years the Jews were very willing to open their records to the mormons under the agreement that deceased Jews would not be subject to those secret, posthumous baptismal ceremonies. After the fact, it was discovered that the mormons did not uphold their end of the agreement. Small wonder that the Jews were upset and developed trust problems with the mormons. Perhaps the Catholics have had similar issues that this incomplete and somewhat slanted article does not mention.

LVIS | 9:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

To Orion at 6:19--Actually, you're wrong. I could not care less if the catholic church decided to baptise my dad by proxy. I don't believe it would be of any validity, so why should I care? It would just be a waste of time on their part, with no bearing on what I believe. In fact, Orion, I'm going to start a movement of my own. I'm going to write your name (Orion) in red ink in a notebook I keep. Because, for your information, that means you are eternally damned. Do you believe that? Does it bother you? Didn't think so.

Mona | 9:23 a.m. May 4, 2008

Decider said: "what gives Mormons the right to make a religious decision for those who have died and were not of the LDS faith, especially if one did not choose to be part of the LDS faith when alive?"

LDS don't force conversion on anyone. We believe each individual lives beyond the grave. We provide the ordinance. Each individual may accept or reject it.

100% of my ancestry is either Roman or Byzantine Catholic, and I have been researching them for 35 years. I have also done research for many other people curious about their roots. Up to this point each Catholic parish has had their individual policy concerning their records. Many have given me open access which I humbly appreciate. Others have refused to even crack open the books, proclaiming that even a deceased person's personal information should not be looked at by anyone, period. This new policy will be devastating. The value of someone learning about their family can make all the difference in how they see themselves and how they progress in their own lives. I have witnessed marvelous miracles.

true blue | 9:27 a.m. May 4, 2008

The church doesn't get the names and submit them for baptism for the dead. They put them on film and the families research them and submit the names. The LDS church is very sensitive to this to the point that if a closer living relative is alive permission from that individual must be granted first. And when the jewish people asked us not to baptize their names we quit doing that.

To orion: God is all powerful and grants mercy and salvation to anyone of any faith that he sees fit. Contrary to popular belief Mormons don't believe that only Mormons make it to heaven. We just believe that God has given us an opportunity to serve and assist in his work.

orion | 9:29 a.m. May 4, 2008

Some of these comments are like the pot calling the kettle black. Why has the church created a new genealogy site for LDS only? It sounds like public access to records is being phased out not just by Catholics.

Keri | 9:36 a.m. May 4, 2008

Mark,
I was raised in the Salt Lake area and lived there until I was in my 30s. I have never heard the one about Martin Luther.
Go ahead and baptize me into another religion after I'm dead. I can accept or reject it according to my own conscience. My mom died 8 years ago. Baptize her into your church. She will decide to reject it, no harm done as far as I'm concerned. (Except, are there any other churches that do baptisms for the dead? I'd really like to know.)
The Church quit performing the Jewish baptisms on a large scale because they were requested to do so.

Voice of reason | 9:38 a.m. May 4, 2008

Seems to me that the LDS church should remove all strings from the process of collecting family names. That the church only collects the research and provides research, and hold true to its own statements that it will not do work for these deceased people unless requested by family members. The change may be subtle but from the perception of outsiders it maybe enough.

Maybe all it would be required is develop PAF like programs where they don't mention LDS information. And then educate the world that we want to only collect the information out of love and honor for the dead, and that addtional services will only be at the request of relatives. If the LDS church does this they may get more approval and assistance in this area.

Common Sense | 9:40 a.m. May 4, 2008

Luckily God's will can never be frustrated, regardless of the decisions of man.

Also, as the Catholic church does not recognize Mormon baptism, then in their view they have in essence condemned all deceased Mormons.

The Mormon faith desires to offer a blessing to all, which they can freely accept or reject. A significant contract.

To Julie | 9:41 a.m. May 4, 2008

This is one of the biggest problems with mormon public relations that the church shows so little respect for others believes of feelings. Would you feel offended if your dead relatives were made members of the Nazi party or other disreputable organizations, maybe Hell's angeles. Why don't we all just mind our own business and not try to make others liken unto our selfes, especially when we too are so imperfect.

sjc | 9:44 a.m. May 4, 2008

Joe W....you are incorrect in asserting that the Catholic Church does not release baptismal information. They won't allow wholesale copying of their registers, true.

However, many other Christian churches recognize the validity of Catholic baptism and vice versa. If a baptised Catholic later joins say the Methodist or Lutheran church, he or she is not rebaptised, and it works the same way in the other direction.

In such cases, Catholic parishes will release a baptismal record or certificate as proof to the person's current church that he or she is already baptised. The Catholic Church does not recognise LDS baptisms, but neither does the LDS Church recognize any other baptisms.

PS I am neither Catholic nor LDS.

To AKL | 9:52 a.m. May 4, 2008

to akl and all of you who keep calling the money given to humanitarian aid "our money" Remember that the money was given to help people. So it's actually being used in the right way. We aren't trying to buy any favors.

MetricWrench | 9:50 a.m. May 4, 2008

This merely shows that baptism for the dead must be a good thing and that there are powers that are always trying to frustrate the work. Everyone knows that the adversary is continually working to slow that which is good and true, even if we all don't agree on what is good and true.

If any other group wants to go to the genealogy library and get some info on my ancestors so they can perform some kind of posthumous ceremony then by all means be my guest. If it is something performed out of love of God and fellowman then I am honored. If it is anything else then who cares.

BTW if the individual who is dead doesn't want to accept the baptism then they can remain a catholic, even on the other side. At no point does God force us to believe anything against our will.

Re: Just Me | 9:50 a.m. May 4, 2008

We're giving many the opportunity for membership in the LDS church who were not given it here on this earth. There is no harm in that.

Mormons Not Only Ones in Heaven | 9:51 a.m. May 4, 2008

For you non-Mormons, I would like you to baptize my dead ancestors. It is a great lesson that members of your faith are not the only ones that will go to heaven. I realize that officially Catholics believe that I am going to hell. So the actions of the Pope make sense. Also realize that Mormons can baptize for the dead, without names, it is the lesson of turning our hearts to our fore-fathers that is helped by having the names. So, don't believe that withholding records stops the work done in Mormon temples. It does make me think that the current Pope is petty and small minded.

Catholic III | 9:54 a.m. May 4, 2008

I think the Catholic church is going to back WAY OFF from friendly associations with LDS because they probably associate the LDS as being like Muslims and the FLDS religions. This is not good to the rest of the world.

Anonymous | 9:55 a.m. May 4, 2008

Imagine for a moment that you are at a great feast where every food imaginable prepared by the greatest cooks ever. Many of your friends and relatives are there with you but many more are not.

They are on the other side of a huge fence. On their side the "feast" consists of chips, dip, sandwiches, cookies and water. Okay but not great.

The only way for people on the other side of the fence to get to your side is if someone on your side unlocks one of the gates. But this gate is weird in that you can unlock it fron your side but you can not open it. The person who you unlock it for must open the gate and pass through. It is a two step process. Once you unlock the gate for that person they can pass through at any time but it has to be thier choice, if they choose not to pass through it is thier right.

Babtism for the dead works the same way it does not automaticly make some one Mormon any more than grabing a person of the street saying the prayer and pushing him under the water would.

Mary | 10:00 a.m. May 4, 2008

I would like to make two points:
First, while I was doing my family research in Poland a few years back, the Catholic Priests were the only church officials who had to be PAID for me to see the records of my great-grandparents. In Belgium, the other churchs were gladly opening the records, so I could trace my family roots. So, I guess if you want to PAY for your own family records, I guess the Catholic don't object.
Secondly, my Mother is devout Catholic and relished in the idea, when she broke her hip, that her LDS daughter put her name on the prayer roll, her Jewish niece had the members of the synagogue praying for her, her Cahtolic sister lit a candle on her behalf, her Protestant sister-in-law had her name included in the weekly service prayer list.
This problem with the Catholic church is from the leaders, not the members. The members don't care, the priests want their bribe money, and the adminstration wants to be devisive.

whocares? | 10:03 a.m. May 4, 2008

lithophysa1 - I could care less. If it isn't true, then why would it matter? Why do people get so worked up about baptisms for the dead - if they don't believe it is true, then does it really matter?

Kelly | 10:04 a.m. May 4, 2008

Well folk, What did the Pope observe while visiting the USA 2 1/2 weeks ago? Think about it. He probably thought the LDS church and FLDS were two of the same. The Pope was here while the raid in Texas was going on. The FLDS church is going to cause us lots of problems. The Catholic church probably thinks of us HERETICS!

tigerlily | 10:07 a.m. May 4, 2008

to No lds should be upset: the scriptures tell us that there is no need for baptism til the age of 8, babies are perfect and have no need for baptism. when we are doing are family history, we are entitled to those records that the catholic church has if our relatives are catholic

Joan | 10:09 a.m. May 4, 2008

If other churches wanted to take my records and baptize me into their church after I died, I wouldn't care because it would have no meaning to me. When we do baptisms for those who have passed, the work is done and then those on the other side have a right to accept or reject the work. It is not automatic. Satan's church could do my work and I wouldn't care because upon death, it would have no meaning for me whatsoever. The work is a gift, waiting to be given and if it's not accepted, so be it. At least they were given the chance. It is a gift of love.

family history worker | 10:10 a.m. May 4, 2008

In the 35 years I have served in family history centers, very few of the people who have researched catholic records were LDS. Most of them are genealogists, who, when they find their ancestors records are so happy. And so disappointed when the records are not available. The people I know are not doing the research for Temple Work. These people do not have the means or ability to go to the parish to get the information. With lack of family input or even knowledge, they would have to search several localities. To cut the records off for them will make their research impossible.

Fredd | 10:11 a.m. May 4, 2008

Am I banned from posting? How the LDS church which has volumes upon volumes of documents in its vaults it won't share with anyone, and calls its temple sacred not secret can criticize anyone for withholding offcial documents is truly the pot calling the kettle black.

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