Deseret News | Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

Reader comments
Catholics told not to give LDS parish data

777 comments | Read story

To: Hey, waid a second | 11:21 p.m. May 6, 2008

Yes, but aren't the attitudes of LDSmom and Kevin et.al. fascinating?

RE: New England Mormon... | 11:36 p.m. May 6, 2008

AKA::: Hey, wait a second

An "incredible monority" of mormons have these views. Well my friend you are incredible insulated from the central office if you think the LDS church is about "...respect for other religions and loving one another."

5 Million in the US; well I would argue with that as well ...

By the way... | 11:43 p.m. May 6, 2008

Non-LDS don't have access to the temple ordinance dates in the International Genealogical Index (IGI), unless they're lying and saying they're LDS and forging a username and password (tsk, tsk, tsk). All the claims about the number of times Anne Frank, Pope John Paul II or Mother Theresa have been baptized, should be taken with a MAJOR grain of salt. If you can see the names in the IGI, yes, temple work has been done, but no nonmember would know how many times without lying and sneaking around - hardly an "objective" point of view.

Catholics aren't the only ones joining the LDS Church - Jews are too. Some deceased Jews receive ordinances legitimately from a descendant who's joined the LDS Church. We're all related so it's silly to think that no Mormon can claim Jewish ancestry.

Ultimately, the whole thing is a control issue, rather like fighting over Grandma's will or who gets to dump her ashes from the helicopter.

Comments continue below

John Lambert | 11:43 p.m. May 6, 2008

If this means that the Vatican is saying to all dioceses to stop letting the LDS microfilm records this is the worst thing that has occured for Family History Research this century.
Of course Belgium putting the LDS Church on the list of "dangerous sects" did cause Brussels to cancel a contract to allow the church to microfilm the records.
This is extremely stupid on the part of the Vatican. If the LDS Church is wrong than their ordinances have no validity, and if their ordinances have validity than the Vatican is standing in the way of the progress of the work of God. There is no logically consistent view that includes halting the Family History work of the LDS Church.

To Kevin | 11:45 p.m. May 6, 2008

What is a knee biter. Is that some sort of insect in Utah? Please explain.

LDS convert | 1:19 a.m. May 7, 2008

what Benedict should have done was remove all those Catholic Bishops that allowed the pedophilia, who transferred them parish to parish. Rome is running scared due to many catholic priests and nuns being converted to LDS and our numbers rising. Do not tell me I am ignorant , for I am an ex monk of the catholic church. Feel nothing but love for catholics brothers and sisters, but Rome is determined now to squash LDS growth. The Lord will open the door that is temporarily closed...onward Brethren.

If right won't matter, if wrong | 1:21 a.m. May 7, 2008

John Lambert, "This is extremely stupid on the part of the Vatican. If the LDS Church is wrong than their ordinances have no validity, and if their ordinances have validity than the Vatican is standing in the way of the progress of the work of God. There is no logically consistent view that includes halting the Family History work of the LDS Church."

I'm LDS and have a strong testimony of family history and temple work but your comments are the dumbest I have ever had the privelige to read. If the Church is wrong which it isn't then it does make sense that the Catholic Church wouldn't want to offend God and those who are being baptized for the dead. It seems to me that you place emphasis on the validity of the ordinances but that isn't how Catholics see it.

They see as an insult to their faith, Catholics and to God. If the Church is right then it won't matter if Catholics prevent the Church from baptizing Catholics for the dead since they would understand that our doctrine allows us to do so in the millenium so it would be logical to have us wait.

Another thing is.... | 6:41 a.m. May 7, 2008

I really miss John Paul II for his peace maker quality. I was sad when he died and I felt a yuck feeling when Benedict was elected....now I know why. The thing is that someday this one will leave us as John Paul did. So let's show respect for their will as much as we feel bad about it so that their is a chance they'll understand what has been said over and over here.

Catholic Convert from LDS | 7:55 a.m. May 7, 2008

I happen to be a convert to the Catholic faith, and I know that there are many others who have converted to Catholism in this happy valley of ours. We appreciate our Mormon roots but have a hard time with "Pride" that we find in the above comments.

Using the above logic, if numbers are the only thing that prove truth, well we should throw time into the mix. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old. It has had its high and low points, but its still here. It isn't going away.

So you may have Catholic converts today, but lets not forget the road runs both ways. With time your Church will have it ups and downs. I think in the Media your church is being unfairly slaugtered by the media. It bothers me to see this.

So, lets grow up and see what the real issue is here:
1. Catholics feel their baptism is valid.
2. Mormons feel their baptism is valid.
3. Mormons believe that once an individual has died that they can correct an invalid baptism
4. Catholics find this offensive.

God Bless

Dennis | 8:14 a.m. May 7, 2008

The LDS church doesnï¿½t release baptism or temple records to the public, what is the difference?

John Lambert | 9:41 a.m. May 7, 2008

To those who do not understand Bapitsm for the dead. It is a vicarious ordinance that is done for the benefit of the deceased. It is not done on the body of the dead, so it is not an issue of desecration.
In the afterlife you still have the choice. If one of your relatives does the temple work for you you still have the full right to reject it. We are just giving people who did not have the full opportunity to accept the gospel now the ability to accept it latter.
I wonder if this may actually be motivated by a scheme to get more money by charging people directly to access the records. What exactly this policy means however is not 100% clear to me.

Eduardo | 9:53 a.m. May 7, 2008

The Catholic Church's records are private. It has the right to do with them as it chooses.

HarryC | 10:32 a.m. May 7, 2008

bandersonï¿½
What you're saying is that it's worth it to throw your principles to the wind for a few free microfilms. Get thisï¿½

To Catholics, posthumous baptism is heresy. Heresy is the worst sin anyone can commit within the Catholic Church, equivalent to treason, grounds for excommunication, and guaranteeing eternal suffering. Yet what you, and all the others on this forum, expect is that the Pope and all Catholic priests should turn over their sacramental records, knowing full well that they will be used for what they consider to be heretical purposes. In other words, they should facilitate heresy in exchange for a few microfilmed records. As someone else already noted, that's a Faustian bargain.

Nice oneï¿½ totally self-centered. It's all about you and what you believe and want, with no respect for othersï¿½ beliefs.

The FHL isn't the only organization capable of microfilming or digitizing records. If Catholics wanted their records preserved, there are hundreds of others qualified to do that.

John Lambert | 10:34 a.m. May 7, 2008

To Orion:
There is access to non-LDS people on New Family Search. One of my colleges at the Family History who is not a member has access to New Family Search.

Brothers and sisters | 11:00 a.m. May 7, 2008

Please, please stop calling people stupid, etc. and be careful what you say.

We need to show love. This is what Christ taught. Truth will prevail.

not mormon or catholic | 11:39 a.m. May 7, 2008

I can understand where the Catholics are coming from. Yes, they don't believe in or agree with baptisms for the dead, that is the point. It is totally offensive in my opinion. It was offensive for the Jewish faith and it is offensive for any faith. Not to mention it's weird and not biblical.

John Lambert | 12:12 p.m. May 7, 2008

If the Catholic Churh would let the LDS Church microfilm the records, then the LDS church would give them a copy of the microfilm, all free. This would mean people would no longer have to look through the old records and the information would be preserved forever.

John Lambert | 12:26 p.m. May 7, 2008

To May 5th at 1:17 PM. The LDS Church is currently in the process of digetizing and indexing records so that many records will be available from the web at no cost.
For those who think that it is anti-Catholic to claim this is about money, the only person I have ever heard claim that the Archbishop of Detroit was just after the money was a Catholic who goes to church every week.

Catholic Convert from LDS | 12:27 p.m. May 7, 2008

John L. > Keep you microfilm, you miss the point!

1. Catholics think their baptism is valid!
2. Mormons think their baptism is valid!
3. Mormons think they can correct the invalid baptism of dead Catholics
4. Catholics find this offensive.

What's so hard to understand?

God Bless!

not catholic or mormon | 12:40 p.m. May 7, 2008

Well said "Catholic convert from LDS"

It should not be so hard to understand for the Mormons.

God Bless!

Re: John Lambert | 12:48 p.m. May 7, 2008

>>This is extremely stupid on the part of the Vatican.<<

Unbelievable arrogance and quite offensive to faithful Catholics. Please do not try to defend the Church in this manner, you are only justifying the negative perceptions that other people already have.

G | 1:03 p.m. May 7, 2008

"If the Church is right then it won't matter if Catholics prevent the Church from baptizing Catholics for the dead since they would understand that our doctrine allows us to do so in the millenium so it would be logical to have us wait."

I've heard a few things from church leaders about proxy baptisms, and "wait" isn't one of them.

G | 1:18 p.m. May 7, 2008

"Unbelievable arrogance and quite offensive to faithful Catholics. Please do not try to defend the Church in this manner, you are only justifying the negative perceptions that other people already have."

I've yet to see why Mormons should abandon a tenet of the faith in order to appease another group. Let them be offended. They don't own the temples.

records | 2:34 p.m. May 7, 2008

From G: "They don't own the temples." And you don't own the records.

John Lambert | 3:31 p.m. May 7, 2008

I will say again this is a short sighted policy. As people have pointed out the LDS Church has accepted restriction on the accessibility of microfilmed records. Blanket stopping of the microfilming of church records will hinder family history research.
No one is saying that the Vatican and the Catholic Church can not do this, we are saying that as far as we understand the policy is misguided and narrow minded and hurts the preservation of records and all forms of historical inquiry.

Everyone calm down | 4:17 p.m. May 7, 2008

Perfect love casteth out all fear.

Catholics must understand that Mormons are a little confused by the "offense" taken where none is intended. Mormons would not be "offended" by rites done on their behalf.

Mormons must understand that some non-LDS people may be offended by the practice of vicarious baptism for dead ancestors (by proxy). I bet some of those who are offended probably don't understand that the ordinance is not being forced on anyone.

Mormons believe the deceased have the choice to accept or reject the baptism done on their behalf.

old mormon | 5:32 p.m. May 7, 2008

at various catholic hospitals they used to baptize ALL babies to insure salvation, my son was baptized there, i have always been lds, but was not offended by this, because i recognized it as an act of love, the same is true of the practice of baptisms for the dead

To Everyone Calm Down | 5:44 p.m. May 7, 2008

This is about mutual respect. The members of the LDS church want the same respect given to the other christian churches (yes I am accepting their claim of being christian). For this to happen the LDS church need to respect the non-LDS religions.
Being Catholic I do feel that if my deceased father is baptised by proxy into the LDS church his religious history has been defile and desicrated. This shows complete lack of respect for our religion.

To old mormon | 5:57 p.m. May 7, 2008

I think the key word was "Catholic" hospital. It was a Chospital. You should expect something "Catholic" to go on in a "Catholic" hospital. Just as I would expect something LDS to happen in an LDS facility. By the way, the Catholic church no longer does this.
Just like the kids that go to Catholic schools and question why they have to go to mass.

It's called mutual respect!!!!!

Knee Biter | 5:59 p.m. May 7, 2008

Before this forum ends, I would still like to know what it is the LDS are referring to when using the term "knee biter." I have never heard that term before. Thank you.

pj | 6:12 p.m. May 7, 2008

Do the people posting here have the slightest clue of World History and events?

As one reads all the posts here, it is evident that most people are not teachable or capable of understanding.

Since when have the Catholics not stated that every doctrine which does not comply with their's, is heresy?

Just don't give the Catholic authorites anymore wood or matches, we know how they dealt with heretics in days gone by.

I have an ancestor, Mother of 5, hanged as a witch by the Puritans. I've also had direct ancestors burned at the stake by the Catholic Fathers.

The Catholics can have the same agreement as the Jews, no baptisms unless family members do them. Which is the case now anyway.

The greatest arrogance in all of this is not the records ban, on only one group of people, the very essence of the definition of discrimination, but another Faith telling another, what it can and cannot believe.

Does this German Pope want to hearken to the past, and a time when freedom of religion was heretical and opposition was met with a painful death?

Keep your records, but stay out of others Faith.

pj

Roger | 6:13 p.m. May 7, 2008

I am sure the Pope prayed about his decision and he is following that counsel he received.

PJ | 6:20 p.m. May 7, 2008

PJ, you sound like a card-carrying member of the Ku Klux Klan. Same talking points and all.

To answer the question... | 6:18 p.m. May 7, 2008

Posted by Knee Biter |5:59

A kneebiter is a variation of the mormon cricket and is found in Garfield and Sanpete Counties.

jonny mac | 6:25 p.m. May 7, 2008

To No longer interested...

Good riddance!

jonny mac

Re: To answer the question |6:18 | 6:35 p.m. May 7, 2008

Actually the kneebiter is found in is found in all 29 counties of utah and parts of idaho, arizona, nevada and california as well as a smattering of other locals.

sis | 7:04 p.m. May 7, 2008

My inlaws are huge devote catholics. They had reservations about FH but after 15 years of seeing no damage done, they are excited about it and helping! This decree will stop a huge movement of FH of all peoples. So much family info has be hidden by local churches during times of war and those are the only records avaiable to verify any info (Bless those brave people)! I come from holocaust history and I am so grateful for any info that ever come available to me...I desire to know my people. Why would anyone want to keep that info from me? that is not a christian act. Seems that it would be more christ like to keep the children safe from being victimized than guarding the typed and handwritten names of my family. they're hiding the wrong stuff, child abusers get protected and families get destroyed. It isn't the FH that is destroying the diocese. BTW I respect my catholic family and do not do anything they disagree with. Respect is all that is needed. There is nothing to fear here.

To: PJ | 7:08 p.m. May 7, 2008

Can I use your words as an example of extremism in this community? ... or is this kind of thinking just simmering below the surface.

Human relations 101. If one wants to understand how one is occurring in the world. Look out there for the measure ... of course if one doesn't care, then why publicly ask how some practice could possibly be considered offensive?

ajarizona | 7:09 p.m. May 7, 2008

Memo to all Catholics and the Cathedral of the Madeline.

The LDS Church politely asks you to return the Million dollars donated to you by us to restore your Cathedral in the early nineties. We're sure it's now filthy lucre in your eyes.

However, many thanks to you from the Tab Choir for singing at the re-dedication of said Cathedral. We suppose they won't be playing that gig, any time soon.

Also, we have sent directives to all the Bishops Store Houses and all Mormons involved in Commerce,

As not sell or do business with any Catholics, who might use items in their religious services that we as Mormons may not agree with.

Some examples but not limited to....

1-Metals, gold etc.. This may used to fashion a cross or crucifix, which Mormons can't support.

2-Grains and Grapes which may be used for the Eucharist and Transubtantiation. Can't buy into this doctrine, sorry.

3-Water or bird baths, which may be used for infant baptism. Again, in direct conflict with Mormon teachings.

4-Beads of any sort. These could find their way into a Rosary, and Mormons don't believe in counting ones prayers with beads.

It's a dangerous road, Rome.

To: ajarizona | 7:31 p.m. May 7, 2008

Your little church pales in comparison to the roman catholic church both in size and stature; furthermore your veiled threat on rome is pretty insignificant. You AZ mormons have gotten a little annoying in the past few months.

Re: ajarizona | 7:45 p.m. May 7, 2008

I don't think the catholic church makes capital purchases, which you have stated, from the mormon church.

Our two churches are structured vary different and fund raising is vary different and it is much appreciated the donation (although I think you are overstating) to the remodel of the Cathedral.

In the larger scheme I detect much bitterness and resentment. I will pray for you and your understanding of the percepective of our two religions.

Sis | 7:48 p.m. May 7, 2008

Hey everyone, Here is my idea...

Why don't we use our right to bear our testimonies and our opinions and write the Vatican each personally instead of beating each other up here on this board?

Andrew | 7:53 p.m. May 7, 2008

Nice comments on kneebiters. I don't think they excist as relatives of the mormon crickets, my grandmother tried to scare me with them when I was young and visited her in Provo but I hadn't heard the term in years. I can still remember her saying somthing along the lines of "let's get ready to go to the meeting house or i'll leave you here to fend for yourself against the kneebiters." wow bring back some childhood recollections. nice post among some of the rude comments.

re: ajarizona | 7:55 p.m. May 7, 2008

Utah sounds to be a very hostile environment. I have spent a great deal of time in Arizona and did not find it to be unsafe. Do Christian churches in Utah require the use to security guards to protect their parishioners from the local people, or do the local people allow other faiths to worship without harrassment?

Thomas | 8:00 p.m. May 7, 2008

"Christian love between the churches/Seemed the twin of heathen hate."

A little info..... | 8:25 p.m. May 7, 2008

for those who asked..

The Kneebiter was hunted and exterminated in the mid 1890's. It was a terrible plague to the farms in the Intermountain West but through faith and perseverance our forefathers were able to overcome. Some of the posts here are just sad and wrong but I thought I would give my knowledge on this predatory insect since there was some light interest in the name. Now you should all try to get along enjoy the evening instead of spreading hatred.

SKH | 8:47 p.m. May 7, 2008

As I visit the Family History Library in Salt Lake City, I see as many non-"Mormons" doing research as I see members. Genealogy is the #1 hobby throughout the world. Record keeping has been aided by churches, individuals, and local governments for centuries.
I don't want my Catholic relatives to be kept hidden...nor my Quaker, Methodist, or any other religion. We are one eternal family...not one eternal family minus Catholics.
Catholics can do any of their ordinances they want on my relatives. Let's be a record-keeping people.

Lucillia | 8:51 p.m. May 7, 2008

Hey, ajarizona | 7:09 p.m. May 7, 2008
Hoping your post about placing an embargo on goods associated with Catholisism is a joke and hoping your pointing out all of the favors done by LDS church is just an immature kid. Blackmailing Catholic Church for respecting the privacy of it's members is the funniest joke yet on this thread

Erroneous how? | 9:02 p.m. May 7, 2008

Will a Catholic please scripturally explain how baptism for the dead is erroneous?

I'd love to get a response on this question.

Can anyone answer it for me?

Papal Assistant | 9:20 p.m. May 7, 2008

John Lambert | 12:12 p.m. May 7, 2008
If the Catholic Churh would let the LDS Church microfilm the records, then the LDS church would give them a copy of the microfilm, all free.
__________

John, the Pope would like to speak with you on this offer STAT!

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.