Deseret News | 'Cultural guide' helps Texans understand FLDS children

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'Cultural guide' helps Texans understand FLDS children

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Kyle from AZ | 11:14 a.m. May 3, 2008

What I find interesting is that we denounce in no uncertain terms the words of Warren Jeffs, but when Jeremiah Wright says equally wacky and destructive comments he is applauded in front of the National Press club and NAACP, given honorary doctrates, and becomes the poster-pastor for black liberation theology. Maybe we should have these two meet and have "cultural" sensitivity training together. I do not believe Jeremiah Wright is any less of a racist than Warren Jeffs!

Judy | 11:21 a.m. May 3, 2008

I think that this article was meant to bring attention to the negative aspects of the FLDS religion, and to mock them in a way. They can choose what they want to believe, but not molest children.

So my point is that this article brought negative attention to their beliefs in efforts to sway the public against their religion, much like what has been done to the LDS religion during Mitt Romney's campain.

But I do not side with FLDS because of the fact that there is sexual abuse of children.

TheMadNuker | 11:30 a.m. May 3, 2008

Re:Chemist. God made Adam and Eve,and all the people of this Earth are decendents of them.(Truth).
We are talking about children in most cases here,
and children do not think as adults. Texas CPS is
playing games with these children. How would you
respond if you were the child seized? Think about their perception,as a child, not yours as a adult.
And when did CPS become Gods, to decide what is wrong thinking, and what is right thinking? Please
be careful, and ask yourself an honest question; If
these people were say, Muslims, or some other group of people,would you be as indignant as to their
way of life, or perceptions of reality.
Now, if there has been clear violations of the law,
involving underaged girls, then hang the guilty ones
perpetrating such crimes. (And I mean hang em high).
But let us not rush to judgement, based upon our own
self-rightous bigotry,and a flamming sword of our
version of justice.No one has yet been charged of a
crime, and last time I looked,One was innocent until
proven guilty,and the burden of proof rests with the
appropriate level of government.Guard your Rights
carefully, but also for others.

Comments continue below

wrz | 11:36 a.m. May 3, 2008

>>Until then the state of Texas is doing nothing more than enforcing the law.<<

Kidnapping and incarcerating innocent women and children and separating children from their mothers, is not "enforcing the law." It's actually breaking the law. And more importantly, it's violating the human rights provisions of the US Constitution.

wrz | 11:47 a.m. May 3, 2008

>>However, the fact still remains, there are young girls who are actually still children, being married and bearing children at an alarming young age!! >Read their articles of faith.. You'll find one that believes in being subject to kings, rulers and magistrates.. and obeying the laws of the land... Polygamy is against the law....<<

The only marriage is the first wife. The rest are spiritual marriages. Hence there is no polygamy. Just adultery... which is not against the law.

Fred | 11:47 a.m. May 3, 2008

Conejo is right and so is the FLDS attorney. Obviously the State of Texas and its associates (ex - jaded flds and other maligners of anything that comes up) are just stirring the pot to inflame public sentiment against a culture in a witch hunt. Why else release little unfounded tidbits one at a time to the press with no back up? Why else do all these haters of others come out NOW with their sob stories and rumors?

Only to hurt others.

Innocent people are being hurt by these haters and Texas CPS. Message to Texas. Speed up the process, find the guilty (if any), shut up the rumors, and send children home. You have messed your State up, abused the Constitution and abused innocent women and children's lives as well as cause them tremendous pain.

Judge not that ye should not be judged and from the Bible : And Jabez prayed: "Oh Lord that you might bless me indeed; that your hand would be with me; that you would keep me from evil; THAT I MAY NOT CAUSE PAIN." And Jabez's prayer was answered. Your prayers would be answered too if you lived life this way.

bilbo | 12:05 p.m. May 3, 2008

as an interesting and pertinent fact:
from the Houston Chronical..."The scandal is that they were also collecting massive amounts of welfare payments, since all but their first wives were, for legal purposes, unwed mothers.
Here is the reason we haven't reported it: It isn't true.

Stephanie Goodman, spokeswoman for the Texas Health and Human Services Commission, said privacy laws prevent her from disclosing who gets welfare payments. But she's quite confident none of the women at the compound in Schleicher County receive welfare.
How can she be sure?
Because not one of the nearly 3,000 souls who lives in Schleicher County receives welfare, more formally known as Temporary Assistance for Needy Families.
Some 203 people do get food stamps. But that's down from 212 in 2003, before the polygamist group moved into the county.
The number of children enrolled in the Children's Health Insurance Program has also declined, from 111 in 2003 to 63 currently."

therefore, why hasn't DESNEWS reported this?
Why hasn't more news sources reported this?
you can reach me....bilbo@commspeed.net
or author Rick Casey ....rick.casey@chron.com

ps: I am not defending...just perplexed about NO NEWS!

Warrant | 12:11 p.m. May 3, 2008

Here is the problem that I have. A warrant was issued for the ENTIRE 3000+ acres and not individual homes. One FLDS woman asked an officer, on video, for a copy of the warrant to search her home. He stated that the "main guy and the attorney have the warrant." But, she said, that is for another house NOT MINE. I want to see a warrant for my house. I would liken it to a subdivision being given a warrant, instead of individuals.
Yes, they are FLDS and dress, believe, and act differently, but SO WHAT. That is not a crime in and of itself. The bishops record listed on the San Angelo newspaper site, shows ages that seem legal 16+. Do some girls look not 18? Yes, that is quite possible especially given that my 18 year old is always mistaken for 14. Why would mothers claim to be underage? Simple, they want to remain with their children. Which one of you mothers, if given the opportunity, would not do the same? I would without hesitation.
Have crimes been committed? Likely based on population size, but innocent until proven guilty.

Warrant part 2 | 12:19 p.m. May 3, 2008

My attorney husband says that the woman that demanded, on video, a copy of the warrant will have anything found in that house as "evidence" tossed out. Again, you need a warrant for the home not "subdivision."

Just because their values system is different than yours does not give you the right to disobey law.

I find it even more bizarre when you have the removal of children despite an expert to the FLDS state that not all parents blindly obey their prophet and that each family makes individual choices and should not all be lumped in as a single functioning entity. The appointed psychiatrist stated that he knew nothing about the group and that at bare minimum the young children were better off with the parents. Why the ruling to remove all the children despite two experts that testified quite to the contrary? Oh, I know, because CPS was insulted by the FLDS lack of honesty despite historical experience of Short Creek which taught them truth removed fathers.
If gay marriage is legal in some states, why punish the polygs for their adultery?
Texas will be writing a blank check to the FLDS soon.

Bruce | 12:19 p.m. May 3, 2008

No, I'm not FLDS. Let me stop laughing. Those of us who think for ourselves, instead of letting the secular media think for us, recognize that words like "hate" and "racism" when refering to white peoples' pride in their own race are only simple terms for the simple minded. They are meant to cause some sort of white guilt. Thinking people don't buy it. The FLDS apparently doesn't buy it either.
I live in Montana, a white community, by choice. Do I "hate" other races? No. Do I want to live around other races and teach my children that they should mix with them? No. Is that my right? You bet it is. Does that meet secular society's definition of "racism"? I could not possibly care less.
I've never even met an FLDS but recognize their right to live life according to the dictates of their own conscience. (not the conscience of Fox News or CNN)

Ing | 12:31 p.m. May 3, 2008

Concerning behaviors, the guide states: "The children appear to cooperate, but may not. They will demonstrate politeness but may disclose little and/or contradictory information. Children in care were initially extremely compliant, but are beginning to 'act out' after separation from parents."

Of course they're "acting out"! What do you expect when they've been forcibly taken from the parents they love with no warning and no reason that they can understand?

I can see that something needed to be done about the marriage practices of the FLDS sect, but what Texas did is a ridiculous overreaction--not to mention downright scary. There had to be a better way to do it than this.

The whole situation is just sad. From Warren Jeffs' megalomania to the sledgehammer tactics of the state government, it just is all wrong.

Cath | 12:36 p.m. May 3, 2008

I think everything has been unjustly blown out of proportion to make the FLDS look bad to unjustly separate families because of their religion. I am NOT a Christians and let the Catholic school system to introduce my son to the bible. One day he told me that our cat about our cat who had died from a stroke: ï¿½the cat died like Jesus on the crossï¿½. Believe me that the Catholics did not do better job then the FLDS in explaining the concepts of live to the youngsters. It is sad to see opinionated people judging others , while they are no better themselves.

Freedom | 12:49 p.m. May 3, 2008

ï¿½As for health care, the guide indicates the children have had no immunizations. Jessop said that is based on a conspiracy theory that the government wants to poison the population and make them sterile.ï¿½ ï¿½ He is so right! Every parent who has autistic children knows that their nervous system was affected by vaccination and caused their dissability , while this government has been covering up the truth for the profit of large pharmaceutical corporations. Parents have the right to choose!

Anonymous | 12:52 p.m. May 3, 2008

I live in Texas and would honestly like to "not" care what these people think or do. Everyone is howling about their constitutional rights, etc. What about our rights as taxpayers? I feel that by their taking advantage of the same government that they claim to hate, by filing for welfare, food stamps, etc, that they deserve the scrutiny that they are getting. Let them live as they choose. Cut off all government aide that they receive. Arrest them when there are allegations of child abuse, pediophilia , polygamy etc. Make them get out and get jobs like the rest of us. If they have to support all of those kids, maybe they will have fewer kids and wives. Would be interesting how their beliefs hold us then. I am sick of the whole disgusting mess.

no excuse for Texas | 12:56 p.m. May 3, 2008

ï¿½People reacted differently to Jeffs' red announcement, Jessop said. Some women continued to wear red but didn't replace the clothing with that colorï¿½ ï¿½ This seems to contradict with CPS statement portraying FLDS women like a bunck of caws with no common sense. Its seems to me that different families had expressed their opinion and had different behavior. For what reason CPS believes that is potentially in ï¿½one house a minor got pregnantï¿½ , there would be a sex crime in every household in the entire FLDS city. This is a non-sense. Why the State of Texas is applying a double standard while treating FLDS differently then the Catholics. Why the State of Texas does not scoop the children in every Catholic Community where a minor got pregant?

Wayne | 1:03 p.m. May 3, 2008

I'm an outsider, I'm not FLDS, not Texan, and not American, though I do travel to the US quite often. I've always had problems with American culture. Quite frankly, it's weird at best, and insane at worst. Part of the problem with American culture is that it looks inward. Generally Americans are lousy at understanding other cultures, because of that inward view.

Then you've got the FLDS, who are even more inward looking than mainstream American culture. And you sound shocked. Good.

Now think hard for a few minutes about how you look on the FLDS and their narrow minded ways. And remember that much of the rest of the world sees you as just as narrow minded.

Open up folks. Open up.

Matt Connelly | 1:12 p.m. May 3, 2008

I don't care how "strange" these FLDS cultural behaviors appear to outsiders, especially when many of the values they hold are more sensible to what passes for moral behavior in the modern world. What I am most appalled at is how the state can, on the basis of a hoax phone call, force its way into a peaceable community, rip its children away from their mothers, and subject an entire community to unspeakable public shame. Is this not a nation founded on the rule of law? Where is due process here? I am utterly appalled at how the Texas government has handled this situation. They ought to be ashamed of themselves. They are acting hipocritically, selfishly, and illegally. Disgusting!

Sandy and Family | 1:18 p.m. May 3, 2008

All these People want to be Judge and Jury
They need to send the kids hone and pay restitution to the FLDS
This is a good look at what America has become
I keep hearing we are a nation of Laws?
Where are the laws to protect our Civil Rights?

Justin | 1:25 p.m. May 3, 2008

I don't feel bad for the FLDS sect. Their religion is evil and promotes sexual, physical, and emotional abuse of children. Instead of crying about the rights of the accused (who, by the way, appear to be very guilty according to the evidence), why don't we start shedding a tear or two for the poor children who are forced to endure this abuse?

Oregonian | 1:39 p.m. May 3, 2008

So....a group of Southern children are reflecting the racist views of their elders. Whats new about that?

Thanks.... | 2:03 p.m. May 3, 2008

for the thoughtful, intelligent posts by Bruce, Samhill, Moving to Bosnia, Iamsure, Jared, Maggie and several others. My faith in America and justice is being restored.

mamacita | 2:20 p.m. May 3, 2008

I'm a fourth generation Montanan, and I don't know where you live, Bruce, but it's most likely somewhere in the Northwest corner of the state. We are actively working on keeping those of your ilk OUT of our state.

We don't generally tolerate white supremacy bigots like you in Montana, I don't want any of these readers to get the wrong idea about my home state. You better watch out if you come to MY town, because you'll be run out of here faster than you can say

Dirty White Boy.

This country was not founded upon racial hatred. You people who adhere to racial hatred have no place here and should be ashamed of yourselves.

Kjaerbye | 2:20 p.m. May 3, 2008

Seperation of Church and State!!!! What these people in Texas are doing to the FLDS Children is like of what Hitler did to Aryan Children. You'r never going to convert these children to mainstream Mormonism!, or other Christian faith. Stop messing with their brains! These kids are going to be screwd up for a long time now!!!!

mamacita | 2:26 p.m. May 3, 2008

And Montana is NOT a "white community" as Mr. Bruce has so stupidly stated. We have a large Native American population here, lots of Asians AND black people. And these white supremacist types think they can relocate here and get away with their hate-filled diatribes.

NOT. We had a white supremacist family in Kalispell get a very rude awakening when their opponents took to the streets and plastered ANTI-white supremacist propaganda around their neighborhood. They were SO upset...

Nope, we don't tolerate people like you here Bruce. And that goes for FLDS too.

Bruce is not a thinking man, by the way. He is uninformed.

John | 2:32 p.m. May 3, 2008

Daisey, as a jew your opposed to these people's teachings about race, are you also opposed to the countless jewish statements against intermarriage - out of religion? or against allowing palestinians to intermarry with jewish israeli citizens?

wrz | 3:01 p.m. May 3, 2008

>>If gay marriage is legal in some states, why punish the polygs for their adultery? >Texas will be writing a blank check to the FLDS soon.<<

You got that right. And, it would be my guess that CPS and State officials will pay some heavy penance as well.

Freddie | 3:07 p.m. May 3, 2008

>>So....a group of Southern children are reflecting the racist views of their elders. What's new about that?<< Oregonian

Too funny!!

Gal50 | 3:45 p.m. May 3, 2008

If the families wanted to be included in the writing of the guidelines as stated by Rod Parker, they would have made every effort to cooperate with CPS. Instead they were incapable of correctly stating their names, ages and relationships, so CPS couldn't expect them to be able to contribute to a guide. Certainly the FLDS isn't going to clue them in on such terms as "double cousins" and "poofers."

My opinion is that the racism is part of the psychotic/borderline nature of this group. In psychology, there is a concept of splitting between good and bad which affects children in harsh environments. People in this sick sect/cult believe they are wonderful and the outside world is evil. Psychotics either stress the good in themselves - they are Jesus Christ or Napoleon, or the bad in the world - people are out to get me. There is continual evidence of splitting in nearly everything this group says. They say that they are raising clean children, but they forget to mention that they are raising sexual deviants. They say the outside world is awash in violence/sex but our teens aren't having sex with their uncles/cousins.

wrz | 4:03 p.m. May 3, 2008

>>NOT. We had a white supremacist family in Kalispell get a very rude awakening when their opponents took to the streets and plastered ANTI-white supremacist propaganda around their neighborhood. They were SO upset...<<

Some people seem to never get it... that this is America... and people can be almost anything they wish... including a white supremacist... or a Muslim... or a David Duke adherent.

I have to agree on this one... | 4:04 p.m. May 3, 2008

"To wear that color before he returned was mocking Christ". Anyone who has ever been to a UofU sporting event has witnessed this first-hand.

to Anonymous @ 12:52 p.m. | 4:26 p.m. May 3, 2008

Where did you get the information that these people are on welfare and food stamps etc.? It has been reported by reliable news organizations that this community is totally self supporting and was not receiving any kind of support from the state of Texas.

By all reports they were living a quiet life and not bothering anybody before corrupt Texas officials invaded and destroyed their lives. So be a good citizen and take some responsibility for the judgemental rednecks you all put in government instead of lashing out at innocent people. You can start by demanding an explanation from your own Representative for this outrage.

mistereporter | 4:47 p.m. May 3, 2008

Some readers expressed horror that the FLDS indoctrinated its followers to be contemptuous of Negroes and Jews.

The sect does not hold a patent on hate.

From infancy to delinquency (1930-40), my keepers and teachers were nuns. When I emigrated from The Home, I took with me a big bag of dirty laundry, mostly a hatred of Jesus killers and Protestants.

The FLDS children, too, can grow out of the hates they were taught.

Mamcita.... | 5:04 p.m. May 3, 2008

You sound like an illegal Mexican and I think CPS should come and get your kids until they can do an "investigation". I don't think Montana is in the U.S. anyway. Last time I was there it just looked like a bunch of dirt and trees and a few indians.

You say "This country was not founded upon racial hatred." Excuse me? How many founding fathers had slaves? What they're doing in Texas is the way they used to treat black people down there.

Thomas | 5:19 p.m. May 3, 2008

People need to be more sceptical about what CPS has to say. Just a little more scepticism please. This is the classic pattern of prejudice. Believe without question anything negative about a group you mistrust.

Bruce | 5:20 p.m. May 3, 2008

It's sad when those of us who simply choose to live and raise our families around people of our own proud race, like the FLDS does, are accused of being "supremists", "haters", etc. This is America and people have (should have) the right to be proud of their own race and heritage, and at the same time love and respect other races and their right to do the same. Separatist does not equal supremist.
Just to get the facts straight: Montana has the 3rd lowest per capita black population in the states...over 90% of the Native American population live on reservations, and yes, I have some great Asian friends here but we are predominantly a white state. If you can read anything "racist", "hateful", or any other poltically correct buzzword into that, Texas CPS might have a job for you....they like your thinking.
Using slurs like "dirty white boy" is racist and hateful....living separate is not.

Oregonian | 5:34 p.m. May 3, 2008

I am a rehabilitated Southerner and it would take a looooong time to convince me that most native Texans are not at least closet racists. As late as the 1960s they had restrooms marked "Colored", but now these government workers with a Southern accent are accusing these children, who came from Utah, of being racist?

I was raised in a major church in the South and the judgemental attitudes and prejudices against people unlike themselves is rampant. THAT is whats going on with this FLDS group, and the people behind it have no shame.

David | 5:43 p.m. May 3, 2008

The Welfare fraud is NOT being committed by those at the YFZ ranch as attested by State authorities already.
Per the Bishop's records posted at the San Angelo newspaper you will see that the marriages are listed with the youngest women age 16 which is legal even by Texas law. You will also find, if you try, that CPS workers not trained in determining age are doing just that and deciding minor v. adult based on looks. My daughter wears make-up to look older, these women do not wear make-up and look young. They also are motivated to lie to stay with their children. Given the honesty that got them into trouble at Short Creek, I cannot blame them. So it's a lose/lose situation for them.
I was also surprised to hear a woman request a warrant to search her home at the captivefldschildren site and was denied it since the "main man and attorney" were given , though she stated "that was another house." Apparently whole subdivisions can be searched with one warrant. Jessop said it best when she said that red was still used by some women though Warren banned it. We all should be afraid.

June | 5:59 p.m. May 3, 2008

When ever man calls himself a God it seems that sex with children soon follows. Warren Jeffs, David Koresh, Jim Jones, and now the newest Messiah in New Mexico.

anon | 6:12 p.m. May 3, 2008

Perhaps I missed it, but can someone tell me, was there any FLDS response when Warren Jeffs was apprehended in a VERY expensive RED automobile? Does the red thing not apply to the "prophet?" I'm sorry, but I think these people need to recognize that this "prophet" has led them all down a very bad road, and that almost certainly none of this would have happened were it not for his lunacy and fanatacism.

honesty is the best policy | 6:52 p.m. May 3, 2008

I've read the "Cultural Awareness Guide" that was drawn up by bitter people who have chosen to leave our church and it made me laugh, oh it was hilarious! It's a bunch of nonsense. How can people be so blind?

Maybe Carolyn and Flora and Becky or whoever else helped to make this "enlightening" guide should take a nap and see if they feel better or ir their memories might be refreshed. What is the world comin to?

wrz | 6:59 p.m. May 3, 2008

>>You say "This country was not founded upon racial hatred." Excuse me? How many founding fathers had slaves?<<

But the founding fathers didn't hate their slaves. They loved them. And why shouldn't they? The slaves did all the hard work.

Snowcrab | 7:01 p.m. May 3, 2008

This Jeffs is a very troubling man with his ideas about "blood atonement" as well. He doesn't strike me as being particularly sane. Makes me wonder how many of the other favored males in the community have been brainwashed and similar traits and attitudes encouraged in them also.

I suspect everyone in that community, most especially the women and children need deprogramming. The State definitely doesn't have the resources or authority to do this, but even a temporary period of seperation from this overwrought environment and exposure to other ways of perceiving the world will do no harm and may give some individuals who are ready to get out a chance to do so.

to anon | 7:12 p.m. May 3, 2008

I saw the RED Thing once in the movies, and it was called something in the Village Of The Darkwoods, where the people were all dress up like some kind of pioneer group, and the leader of this group would dress up like a red devil in a suit during the night, as to scare the folks so that they wouldn't leave the village cult. The people had no idea it was their leader playing the devil to deceive them. It was however a pretty good movie but they weren't polygamists.

It looks like Warren Jeffs was apprehended in his RED devil-mobile. Warren Jeffs was as deceptive as his leader the "devil"--the man of all lies.

Kyle from AZ | 8:02 p.m. May 3, 2008

Jeremiah Wright and Warren Jeffs....two peas in a pod.

appalled | 8:37 p.m. May 3, 2008

The sins of the fathers will be visited upon the children.

The FLDS people have been deceived by a false prophet.
He seems to have some schizophrenic ideas.

The greatest sin against these people by Jeffs, was taking away their freedom. Freedom to choose to stay or leave, freedom to choose when and who to marry, freedom to choose when or with whom to have children, freedom to pursue education, freedom to wear what they would like to wear, freedom to wear their hair in the way they would like.

There is nothing wrong with modesty, good nutrition, simple living, but taking away people's freedom to choose the good and forcing them into a mold is very evil. These people are living some zombie like existence, but I'm going back and forth about how the children were taken from the mothers. Something was very wrong about what the FLDS were doing. But something doesn't seem right about how it was handled. Warren Jeffs is definitely a false prophet...as have all their leaders been...and look what a mess they are in now.
Some of you posters might want to proofread...all the mistakes weaken your position.

MC | 8:39 p.m. May 3, 2008

So what, exactly is the difference between the flds group and a group of arabic muslims who practice sharia? Just wondering? Their women dress even stranger, the girls are married off at young ages to older men with no say, etc. Men can have multiple wives & beat them at will. Their religious system is all encompassing and the penalty for leaving (apostasy) is death. So if there is a large enough group of them here in america, will we raid them too and remove the kids for their own good before the girls are married off against their will or honor killed if they refused?

to MC | 8:51 p.m. May 3, 2008

Yes, the arabic muslim leaders are very evil...taking away freedom from the women and people and enforcing their agenda with death.

Benjamin | 8:54 p.m. May 3, 2008

Having a leader like Warren Jeffs says a whole lot about the whole Polygamist FLDS religion. Now, how true is that? The whole FLDS religion is built on solid lies for in and behalf of FLDS men, and for the purpose of the men having their way with the women and children. Looks to me like a deal with the RED GUY.

John | 9:20 p.m. May 3, 2008

Most Important:
But under questioning from defense lawyers ...the state's experts acknowledged that the sect mothers are loving parents and that there were no signs of abuse among younger girls and any of the boys.

AND:
Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.

However, her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS - to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs - amount to abuse.

CLEARLY - IT IS AGAINST ALL LEGAL PRECEDANT and our Constitution to break up families based on their belief system - period.
Texas will be writing a BIG check to these FLDS victims of this enourmous fiasco.

O | 9:48 p.m. May 3, 2008

I am not surprised to hear that the flds children are teeming with racial hate. Their jailed leader, Warren Jeffs, is a perverted maniac who devoted his life to maintaining power and control over these people by brainwashing them with false teachings. It's a shame that this organization has spawned generations of such markedly ignorant people.

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'Cultural guide' helps Texans understand FLDS children