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Feds are stymied in probes of FLDS
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re: G | 2:34 p.m. May 2, 2008
A bad anology is like a soapdish.
Private schools aside, the CPS takes children and places them in harms way. They are abused, murdered, raped in fosterage. That has very little to do with where they came from an so much more with where they are going.
How are those statistics misleading?
Private schools aside, the CPS takes children and places them in harms way. They are abused, murdered, raped in fosterage. That has very little to do with where they came from an so much more with where they are going.
How are those statistics misleading?
Alex | 2:37 p.m. May 2, 2008
Hoax Phone Calls:
"Should they just ignore the evidence and stop the investigation since the dead body was only discovered because of a hoax phone call? "
No. I don't think anybody is saying that. My view is, if you are going to go in there as the state of Texas did, you had darn well better be right on the main points, especially if you are going to uproot the lives of 400+ children and ~200 women and possibly take permanent custody of them (effectively shutting down the entire FLDS community in that area).
That said, my caution doesn't mean that I turn a blind eye to abuse when and wherever it occurs. If it is shown that I had no need to worry about the state of Texas' handling of the case, then I will relax. It will all become apparent in due time. Its all the same to me. I have no horse in the race.
"Should they just ignore the evidence and stop the investigation since the dead body was only discovered because of a hoax phone call? "
No. I don't think anybody is saying that. My view is, if you are going to go in there as the state of Texas did, you had darn well better be right on the main points, especially if you are going to uproot the lives of 400+ children and ~200 women and possibly take permanent custody of them (effectively shutting down the entire FLDS community in that area).
That said, my caution doesn't mean that I turn a blind eye to abuse when and wherever it occurs. If it is shown that I had no need to worry about the state of Texas' handling of the case, then I will relax. It will all become apparent in due time. Its all the same to me. I have no horse in the race.
Comments continue below
David S | 2:40 p.m. May 2, 2008
When due process is violated, and those violated deem it harmful to their cause
to cooperate with those who have harmed them, whey should they be forthcoming
with any information?
The FLDS claim CPS repeatedley promised them they only wanted to look around, then they only wanted to question the children on the ranch without the parents, then they only wanted to take them off the ranch temporarily, then temporarily seperate mothers from children, etc.
Stories of harassment by CPS have been shared here. Would you cooperate with CPS if you felt they were after you for a crime you hadn't committed; would you give them anything to hang their case on?
The burden of due process is not a burden the accused bear, but the acuser. The acused don't have to be forthcoming; it is not their job. If CPS didn't know at the outset specifically who they felt was guilty, they had no right to go after everyone.
The FLDS claim CPS repeatedley promised them they only wanted to look around, then they only wanted to question the children on the ranch without the parents, then they only wanted to take them off the ranch temporarily, then temporarily seperate mothers from children, etc.
Stories of harassment by CPS have been shared here. Would you cooperate with CPS if you felt they were after you for a crime you hadn't committed; would you give them anything to hang their case on?
The burden of due process is not a burden the accused bear, but the acuser. The acused don't have to be forthcoming; it is not their job. If CPS didn't know at the outset specifically who they felt was guilty, they had no right to go after everyone.
Jarred | 2:43 p.m. May 2, 2008
Descender from polygamy. My great great grand mother was Married and sealed to
her first husband(SAME AGE being 20 yrs old) for all eternity. They had 5
Children and then he when he died, she remarried again to a man again of her own
same age, and they had 3 more children. She said in her diary that she would
rather live with the second husband for all eternity he was the better man of
the 2 and as well her soul mate. The second husband of course was not a
polygamist and they had a genuine and very close relationship with each other
which she never had with her polygamist first husband. I think she should have
the choice to whom to spend eternity with. She was married to the first husband
10 years and the second 20 years before he died. She disliked polygamy
immensely!
Freethinker | 2:43 p.m. May 2, 2008
Re: FLDS Harmless
I do try to keep informed about current events related to religions, all religions, not just the FLDS. I am aware of Warren Jeff's problems with the law and his incarceration in Arizona, but I'm not sure that he received a fair trial. Without going into a lot of detail, I understand that he only performed the marriage. that the bride said "I do," and that the groom, who was near her age, has never been charged. All of that is suspicious to me. I, personally, do not suscribe to any religion, including the FLDS. I do, however, believe that everyone should have the right to practice whatever he/she believes as long as that practice does not harm or infringe on the rights of others to do the same My defense of the FLDS is based on that principle. I have not yet read of a specific violation of law committed by any member of the group. Maybe you have. If so would you be kind enough to inform me of what the violation was. No rumors, hearsays, or speculations please.
I do try to keep informed about current events related to religions, all religions, not just the FLDS. I am aware of Warren Jeff's problems with the law and his incarceration in Arizona, but I'm not sure that he received a fair trial. Without going into a lot of detail, I understand that he only performed the marriage. that the bride said "I do," and that the groom, who was near her age, has never been charged. All of that is suspicious to me. I, personally, do not suscribe to any religion, including the FLDS. I do, however, believe that everyone should have the right to practice whatever he/she believes as long as that practice does not harm or infringe on the rights of others to do the same My defense of the FLDS is based on that principle. I have not yet read of a specific violation of law committed by any member of the group. Maybe you have. If so would you be kind enough to inform me of what the violation was. No rumors, hearsays, or speculations please.
Re: Crazy | 2:46 p.m. May 2, 2008
Get over your instant gratification syndrone.
Thanks to the FLDS adults' refusal to properly identify themselves and their children, CPS was forced to use DNA just to sort out the families.
Just because it's taking awhile, doesn't mean some 50-year-old men who have been raping 13-year-old girls won't eventually be spending a long time in prison.
Thanks to the FLDS adults' refusal to properly identify themselves and their children, CPS was forced to use DNA just to sort out the families.
Just because it's taking awhile, doesn't mean some 50-year-old men who have been raping 13-year-old girls won't eventually be spending a long time in prison.
Alex | 2:47 p.m. May 2, 2008
Crazy:
Your disappointment is justified, but we need to wait and see. The case load here is unprecedented and there is a lot to go through. Give it some time.
Your disappointment is justified, but we need to wait and see. The case load here is unprecedented and there is a lot to go through. Give it some time.
To David S. | 2:51 p.m. May 2, 2008
The FLDS do not have an obligation to tell the truth regarding the age, name,
and parentage of the child. But, because they have refused to remain consistent
in that regard CPS is forced to keep the children so as not to return them to
the wrong people as CPS does in all cases of children with unclear parentage. It
is one reason DNA was made necessary.
Regarding due process, the children also deserve due process which are not for adults alone, at least in the United States.
Regarding due process, the children also deserve due process which are not for adults alone, at least in the United States.
G | 2:55 p.m. May 2, 2008
"
Should they just ignore the evidence and stop the investigation since the dead body was only discovered because of a hoax phone call?"
Your analogy is way off. This wasn't a dumpster fire, it was a warrant for searching a home.
The validity of the warrant may be held if it is found that law enforcement was acting in "good faith". That is, if there was no deception in obtaining the warrant, and if law enforcement had reasonably investigated the call before requesting the warrant.
According to United States v Leon (1984):
"Suppression [of evidence] remains an appropriate remedy if the magistrate or judge in issuing a warrant was misled by information in an affidavit that the affiant knew was false or would have known was false except for his reckless disregard of the truth, or if the [468 U.S. 897, 899] issuing magistrate wholly abandoned his detached and neutral judicial role."
If it is found that police should have had reason to doubt the call (it came from Colorado, and cited a "husband" that was known to be in Arizona, and was under surveillance at the time), evidence seized could be suppressed in a criminal trial.
Should they just ignore the evidence and stop the investigation since the dead body was only discovered because of a hoax phone call?"
Your analogy is way off. This wasn't a dumpster fire, it was a warrant for searching a home.
The validity of the warrant may be held if it is found that law enforcement was acting in "good faith". That is, if there was no deception in obtaining the warrant, and if law enforcement had reasonably investigated the call before requesting the warrant.
According to United States v Leon (1984):
"Suppression [of evidence] remains an appropriate remedy if the magistrate or judge in issuing a warrant was misled by information in an affidavit that the affiant knew was false or would have known was false except for his reckless disregard of the truth, or if the [468 U.S. 897, 899] issuing magistrate wholly abandoned his detached and neutral judicial role."
If it is found that police should have had reason to doubt the call (it came from Colorado, and cited a "husband" that was known to be in Arizona, and was under surveillance at the time), evidence seized could be suppressed in a criminal trial.
Re: David S | 2:56 p.m. May 2, 2008
"Would you cooperate with CPS if you felt they were after you for a crime
you hadn't committed; would you give them anything to hang their case
on?"
That's the predicament that the FLDS find themselves in. They can't prove that they're not involved in one crime, child abuse (all those underaged girls who are pregnant or already mothers), without implicating themselves in another crime, polygamy.
Since there were dozens of possible victims, and no way of knowing the victims' families, CPS had no choice but to take ALL of the children into protective custody until they could determine which ones were at risk and which ones weren't.
That's the predicament that the FLDS find themselves in. They can't prove that they're not involved in one crime, child abuse (all those underaged girls who are pregnant or already mothers), without implicating themselves in another crime, polygamy.
Since there were dozens of possible victims, and no way of knowing the victims' families, CPS had no choice but to take ALL of the children into protective custody until they could determine which ones were at risk and which ones weren't.
G | 3:00 p.m. May 2, 2008
"
How about teaching something AND practicing the same thing?"
FLDS members can be prosecuted for abuse as long as they are practicing it. I was quite clear on that point. The problem is that Texas is trying to use their teaching the younger children as grounds for removal. If it stands, this will be the first time that simply imparting a religious belief has ever been found to constitute "child abuse". The future implications are disturbing.
Another post:
"They are abused, murdered, raped in fosterage. That has very little to do with where they came from an so much more with where they are going.
How are those statistics misleading?"
Abuse in foster homes is a valid point. Maybe I misunderstood the author? I apologize if that is that case. However, I don't think CPS is responsible for the often-cited criminality of kids from the foster system. Most of that probably comes from sampling bias.
How about teaching something AND practicing the same thing?"
FLDS members can be prosecuted for abuse as long as they are practicing it. I was quite clear on that point. The problem is that Texas is trying to use their teaching the younger children as grounds for removal. If it stands, this will be the first time that simply imparting a religious belief has ever been found to constitute "child abuse". The future implications are disturbing.
Another post:
"They are abused, murdered, raped in fosterage. That has very little to do with where they came from an so much more with where they are going.
How are those statistics misleading?"
Abuse in foster homes is a valid point. Maybe I misunderstood the author? I apologize if that is that case. However, I don't think CPS is responsible for the often-cited criminality of kids from the foster system. Most of that probably comes from sampling bias.
to freethinker | 3:08 p.m. May 2, 2008
"Wall told the jury that she dreaded the wedding and begged both Warren
Jeffs and his father, Rulon, who was the group's leader at the time, to
intercede, but Warren Jeffs insisted that she go through with it.
Later, after she reported the rape to Warren Jeffs, she testified, he told her to return to her husband and give herself "mind, body and soul" to him."
Wall is the "husband" that has been charged with rape. All was found at court t.v. There are some transcripts that are available that will remove your questioning completely. Additional men, including the one named in the bogus call have court records, including offender registry. The proof is in the pervasive nature, or M.O.
Later, after she reported the rape to Warren Jeffs, she testified, he told her to return to her husband and give herself "mind, body and soul" to him."
Wall is the "husband" that has been charged with rape. All was found at court t.v. There are some transcripts that are available that will remove your questioning completely. Additional men, including the one named in the bogus call have court records, including offender registry. The proof is in the pervasive nature, or M.O.
TheMadNuker | 3:07 p.m. May 2, 2008
I keep reading posts about 50 yr old me,repeated
over and over, then I read actual news articles,
quoting state agencies, about 18 yr old women married to 20 something men. Now I do not doubt that
there are marriages with older men, but why is that
any different than a younger woman married or living with an older man. For example, Larry King is
married to a woman at least 20-25 years younger than
himself. Do we arrest him next? Now if there are young women involved under 16, which is the law I believe, then throw the book at them. Let us address
the facts, not heresay.
over and over, then I read actual news articles,
quoting state agencies, about 18 yr old women married to 20 something men. Now I do not doubt that
there are marriages with older men, but why is that
any different than a younger woman married or living with an older man. For example, Larry King is
married to a woman at least 20-25 years younger than
himself. Do we arrest him next? Now if there are young women involved under 16, which is the law I believe, then throw the book at them. Let us address
the facts, not heresay.
wrz | 3:10 p.m. May 2, 2008
>>Without going into a lot of detail, I understand that he (Jeffs) only
performed the marriage. That the bride said "I do," and that the
groom, who was near her age, has never been charged.<<
I think the groom has been charged. The question should be, can he have sex with his wife even if she, per statute, is under age. Don't know when the trial is to commence. Maybe someone else does.
As for Jeffs, the only thing he is guilty of, in my view, is performing a marriage for someone under the legal marrying age. The penalty for that should be a letter of reprimand from the state.... not jail for 10 years to life. A travesty which will probably be reversed on appeal.
I think the groom has been charged. The question should be, can he have sex with his wife even if she, per statute, is under age. Don't know when the trial is to commence. Maybe someone else does.
As for Jeffs, the only thing he is guilty of, in my view, is performing a marriage for someone under the legal marrying age. The penalty for that should be a letter of reprimand from the state.... not jail for 10 years to life. A travesty which will probably be reversed on appeal.
incriminating | 3:32 p.m. May 2, 2008
Even if many women disclose one man as the father of many children, nothing will
happen. While we call them polygamists, that is not fact. The man marries one
woman legally and the rest are "spiritual wives" only and not legal
wives. The most they can be charged with is adultery, but then every adulterer
even non-flds should be charged.
headliners - Jason Caffey Has(Eight Kids with Seven Women), Shawn Kemp (seven kids with six women) and Travis Henry (nine children with nine women), Elijah Dukes (5 kids with 4 women)Jack Nicholson (5 kids from 4 women), Calvin �the Pocket Rocket� Murphy - 14 kids from 8 women.
headliners - Jason Caffey Has(Eight Kids with Seven Women), Shawn Kemp (seven kids with six women) and Travis Henry (nine children with nine women), Elijah Dukes (5 kids with 4 women)Jack Nicholson (5 kids from 4 women), Calvin �the Pocket Rocket� Murphy - 14 kids from 8 women.
David S | 3:36 p.m. May 2, 2008
Can you just round up all the possible victims of crimes, say abused children in
a neighborhood, and then start off on your investigation?
There is an order that has to be followed for due process to exist:
1. Concrete evidence found of a specific crime committed by a specific person.
2. A person tried on the evidence.
3. A person found guilty.
4. A person punished.
It appears the Texas case goes:
1. Suspicion of crimes being committed by many.
2. Homes raided, property taken that could possibly lead to the discovery of evidence, and children taken from parents.
3. Begin investigation to see if there is specific evidence of specific crimes.
The crimes many feel these people are guilty of are repulsive. But any alleged crime has to be investigated one suspect at a time with real evidence of real crimes; not one group at a time based on mass suspicion.
This is why I call for the return of childen to parents UNTIL the State, under the burden (however heavy) of due process, can allege specific crimes by specific people. If they can't due that without taking the children first, they aren't entilted to proceed.
There is an order that has to be followed for due process to exist:
1. Concrete evidence found of a specific crime committed by a specific person.
2. A person tried on the evidence.
3. A person found guilty.
4. A person punished.
It appears the Texas case goes:
1. Suspicion of crimes being committed by many.
2. Homes raided, property taken that could possibly lead to the discovery of evidence, and children taken from parents.
3. Begin investigation to see if there is specific evidence of specific crimes.
The crimes many feel these people are guilty of are repulsive. But any alleged crime has to be investigated one suspect at a time with real evidence of real crimes; not one group at a time based on mass suspicion.
This is why I call for the return of childen to parents UNTIL the State, under the burden (however heavy) of due process, can allege specific crimes by specific people. If they can't due that without taking the children first, they aren't entilted to proceed.
Yockel | 3:40 p.m. May 2, 2008
Question for the lawyers: Couldn't federal prosecutors rely on the Mann
act? After all, young women are being moved across state borders for the
purpose of sexual abuse?
What am I missing?
What am I missing?
RE: Hello There!! | 3:39 p.m. May 2, 2008
You imply that the FLDS are not entitled to computers and internet. Or do you
just simply believe that they do not have it because they are forbidden to? That
is simply not true. And if that is not true about them, what else is not true?
Perhaps everyone should stop and ask yourself just how many outlandish rumors
you are accepting as fact. THAT, my fellowmen, is the reason the feds are
stymied in their investigations. They are going in because of some rumor, hoping
they will find the facts, and turning up nothing. Because they are FALSE
accusations!
to Yockel | 4:17 p.m. May 2, 2008
The Mann Act cannot be applied until DNA is complete. With any luck, the men
that were ex'd and tossed out having both wife/wives and children
reassigned, matches.
Michigander | 4:54 p.m. May 2, 2008
The San Angelo newspaper ( on the left) has the 'Bishops' pages
listed. It's an eyeopener and will give the Sate plenty of ammunition to
prosecute.
I wonder how the people in the compound paid their income taxes, do they list all their wives, dependents?
I wonder how the people in the compound paid their income taxes, do they list all their wives, dependents?
Re: wrz | 5:15 p.m. May 2, 2008
You left out one small detail of Jeffs conviction. He was the prophet and
ringleader of the FLDS; the one telling the young girls who that HAD to marry.
That puts an entirely different dynamic into the equation than Jeffs simply
being a minister performing a marriage.
GO TEXAS!!!!!!!!!! | 5:20 p.m. May 2, 2008
BOY! the more I hear read about these polygamist MEN the more I believe the best
place for them is behind bars.
so.... | 5:24 p.m. May 2, 2008
this is in response to the body in front of the dumpster....Should they take all
of the city into protective custody until they figure out what happened?
Yes Spiritual Polygamy in LDS | 6:07 p.m. May 2, 2008
Yes, a man can be sealed for eternity to more than one woman. Yes, LDS revere
Joseph Smith to be the greatest man save Jesus who ever lived. Yes, LDS women
are taught that males are superior and receive special rights when age twelve
which females do not.Yes, many LDS women believe they are to be submissive to
husbands if done in "righteousness". Yes many have large
families.There are many similarities between LDS and FLDS, but also new
revelation given to modern day prophets which clearly state that the current LDS
church abhors some behavior and you will be excommunicted if you behave as the
early founders of the LDS church did.
Those who claim to be LDS and hold opinions about the FLDS need to do some of their own history. Follow the second commandment. Words like, suspected, may have, perhaps, probably, most likely, are escape routes. Nothing has been proven yet...no actual abuse, no welfare fraud, what age married what age.
Texas needs to ruturn all of the women and children and try this on a case by case basis. Also. They do have, or had, cell phones and computers.
Those who claim to be LDS and hold opinions about the FLDS need to do some of their own history. Follow the second commandment. Words like, suspected, may have, perhaps, probably, most likely, are escape routes. Nothing has been proven yet...no actual abuse, no welfare fraud, what age married what age.
Texas needs to ruturn all of the women and children and try this on a case by case basis. Also. They do have, or had, cell phones and computers.
wrz | 6:19 p.m. May 2, 2008
>>This is why I call for the return of childen to parents UNTIL the State,
under the burden (however heavy) of due process, can allege specific crimes by
specific people. If they can't due that without taking the children first,
they aren't entilted to proceed.<<
Excellent point, David. I tell ya, CPS has been given (or usurped) tremendous power... to the extent that it can violate folks' Constitutional rights with impunity, and everybody looks the other way.
Excellent point, David. I tell ya, CPS has been given (or usurped) tremendous power... to the extent that it can violate folks' Constitutional rights with impunity, and everybody looks the other way.
zoar | 8:03 p.m. May 2, 2008
Taking over 400 children into protective custody, I don�t
think anything on that scale has ever happened in this country. The FLDS
community is nearly empty of its inhabitants now.
The last time something like this occurred is when the Nazis invaded Poland and raided the Jewish ghettos removing all the women, children and men leaving the communities uninhabited. Fear about a religion is what fueled all this. Has our nation stooped to their level now?
The last time something like this occurred is when the Nazis invaded Poland and raided the Jewish ghettos removing all the women, children and men leaving the communities uninhabited. Fear about a religion is what fueled all this. Has our nation stooped to their level now?
hmmm | 9:29 p.m. May 2, 2008
Well the fact that most of the men didnt even give up there DNA is very telling
of the situation going on with that ranch.. if there was NO abuse, NO underage
marriages, NO underage girls having babies
then they would have nothing to run from
then they would have nothing to run from
zxcvbnm | 9:51 p.m. May 2, 2008
Ok Sports fans, I am from Texas and here's how it works.
The cops had an informant in the "compound" gathering evidence for four years. A county JP flew over the place weekly, even published the pictures on a website. No evidence.
So here we go. They can get in the place with CPS and the fake call'
They can do a welfare check with no warrant.
They can send a game warden in to look for poachers with no warrant.
They can get a judge that is "Tough on crime" to sign a warrant.
Standard procedure.....Welcome to Texas
wrz | 9:53 p.m. May 2, 2008
>>Well the fact that most of the men didn't even give up there DNA is
very telling of the situation going on with that ranch.. >if there was NO
abuse, NO underage marriages, NO underage girls having babies
then they would have nothing to run from<<
They possibly are trying to protect their constitutional rights and not get rounded up and incarcerated like their women and children.
then they would have nothing to run from<<
They possibly are trying to protect their constitutional rights and not get rounded up and incarcerated like their women and children.
Randy K. | 10:17 p.m. May 2, 2008
Its quite definite that there are many things going on within the FLDS ranch
that are very questionable. The men are hiding like rats in a whole. I have
never in my entire life witness so many cowards in one group of people. Its too
bad that the FLDS woman are so brainwashed beyond recognizing how they have been
used and abused by the FLDS men. I really have a hard time understanding or
comprehending how this kind insanity, in this day and age, (2008), how this
could be going on within the USA--Unbelievable!!
Paul | 10:54 p.m. May 2, 2008
This action was based on a hoax. No FLDS member pressed charges against any
other FLDS members. The whole thing is an affront to all Americans who favor
justice and honor our Constitution. There is no proof that any crime was
committed. Gossip and innuendo don't count as proof. The FBI should also
investigate the violation of the civil rights of adult women who are being
illegally detained because they supposedly don't look 18. Their proof of
age was ignored by those who demand proof of age (rolls eyes). Also, if abuse
was occurring there, why did the so-called inside informant not notify the
authorities during the time that they were in the community. If *children* (key
word) are victims of abuse and/or neglect, they should be rescued by *competent
and honest* (more key words) authorities. So far, there has been no convincing
evidence that any crimes were committed. No formal arrests have been made. No
charges have been filed. However, children have been kidnapped based on mere
accusations.
NO WELFARE, THANK YOU | 11:23 p.m. May 2, 2008
There are NO children or parents on welfare at YFZ. NONE. What part of NO
don't you understand? Ask the welfare department of TEXAS. You should get
a straight answer unless they work for CPS.
stick to the point | 11:28 p.m. May 2, 2008
These children were not removed from their homes because they were mormon. This
idea that it is some sort of religious persecution was developed to cloud the
main issue.
It does not matter if you you live in a big city, small town, or private enclave. You are a citizen of a county, of a state, and of a country and are bound by the laws that apply to everyone else in that municipality.
The law clearly states that it is illegal for a person over 18 to have sex with a person under eighteen. That 16 year old who just gave birth to her 2nd child? Her "husband" is 22. Not okay.
CPS can not legally, ethically, or morally turn a blind eye to crimes against children just because the initial report turned out to be a hoax.
It does not matter if you you live in a big city, small town, or private enclave. You are a citizen of a county, of a state, and of a country and are bound by the laws that apply to everyone else in that municipality.
The law clearly states that it is illegal for a person over 18 to have sex with a person under eighteen. That 16 year old who just gave birth to her 2nd child? Her "husband" is 22. Not okay.
CPS can not legally, ethically, or morally turn a blind eye to crimes against children just because the initial report turned out to be a hoax.
4thechildren | 11:33 p.m. May 2, 2008
For anyone who thinks we should give those children back...back to fathers who
think it is okay to have sex with middle school aged girls...back to mothers who
are basically forced to comply: would you send your 13 year old daughter, niece,
or grand-daughter, to be raised by these people? I didn't think so.
Wayne Morrison | 12:28 a.m. May 3, 2008
When almost half of the girls in the Texas FLDS case have had children or are
pregnant and under 18, that is all the proof I need!
To Eye Dee Ten Tee | 1:35 a.m. May 3, 2008
Trying to compare teen pregnancy in inner cities to the teen pregnancy within
the FLDS "faith" is like comparing apples to oranges. Being groomed
from birth to be the "spiritual bride" of some dirty old man is not
the same as teenagers having consensual sex with each other. The FLDS men are
all about mind control, power, and sex with as many underage girls as possible.
Explain to me where God comes into this equation.
Probable Cause | 2:23 a.m. May 3, 2008
Texas had probable cause that a crime had been committed. Upon investigation,
they found evidence, dozens of teenagers who were pregnant or already mother, to
support the exact type of crime, child abuse, that had been reported. Since the
FLDS refused to identify which girls belonged to which families, Texas was fully
justified in removing all the kids. When one child in a family is being abused,
there is a strong probability that the other children are being abused as well,
which is why CPS routinely removes all of the children in the family of an
abused child until it is determined that it is safe to return the children.
Texas is doing the right thing to protect the children from further abuse. CPS doesn't have to have a conviction to remove the children temporarily, CPS only needs reasonable suspicion that children are being abused or at risk of being abused.
Texas is doing the right thing to protect the children from further abuse. CPS doesn't have to have a conviction to remove the children temporarily, CPS only needs reasonable suspicion that children are being abused or at risk of being abused.
Probable Cause | 12:34 p.m. May 3, 2008
My 18 year old looks 14, if she got pregnant my other children should be
removed? The CPS is basing the girls ages on "looks." One mother had
a birth certificate AND a drivers license. Why was her child removed? Why was
a warrant issued for the entire acreage to one "main" individual and
one attorney despite the fact that ON VIDEO (I browsed an FLDS site) one woman
asked for a search warrant before authorities began searching her home. That is
effectively like a search warrant for a subdivision in UT County (they all
follow the LDS prophet) is sufficient for ALL homes contained within. You would
cry out that every individual obeys the prophet and follows the religion to
different degrees and I say EXACTLY and so to do the FLDS despite the clothing
and lack of make-up (note that secular children wear make-up to look older) and
outward appearances.
I thought the raid was appropriate until I saw the warrant video.
Be careful of condemning people on beliefs, my sister thinks me sinful for my morning coffee cup since you might be next.
I thought the raid was appropriate until I saw the warrant video.
Be careful of condemning people on beliefs, my sister thinks me sinful for my morning coffee cup since you might be next.
Yockel | 1:56 p.m. May 3, 2008
Your daughter would not be removed because she would provide a birth certificate
that would discount the suspicion that she is a minor.
Remember, if FLDS parents would disclose people's names, ages and family relationships, the CPS could be a lot more cooperative with the parents. When parents resist law enforcement, they are limiting the government's options.
The FLDS are playing our emotions like a fiddle. They are doing everything to exacerbate conditions and then they cry in front of cameras. Remember, none of those mothers ran to the media when they abandoned their teenage sons on the side of the road.
Don't fall for the manipulation. Get all the information and then make up your mind by yourself.
Remember, if FLDS parents would disclose people's names, ages and family relationships, the CPS could be a lot more cooperative with the parents. When parents resist law enforcement, they are limiting the government's options.
The FLDS are playing our emotions like a fiddle. They are doing everything to exacerbate conditions and then they cry in front of cameras. Remember, none of those mothers ran to the media when they abandoned their teenage sons on the side of the road.
Don't fall for the manipulation. Get all the information and then make up your mind by yourself.
gal50 | 2:33 p.m. May 3, 2008
Here is a link to a far more qualified opinion on Texas probable cause than the
source you used in your article:
I don't think the FLDS lawyer, Rod Parker, is able to comment without bias on probable cause as quoted from your article:
"That's a much more responsible approach than what's been taken in Texas with respect to the Constitution," said Rod Parker.
Obviously, he is severely biased and his job depends on successfully defending the FLDS. He's not in a position to say whether there is probably cause in Utah.
Given the vast amount of child suffering in the FLDS, something has to be done. Exactly, how much evidence do you need to realize that polygamy, child rape, abandonment, welfare fraud and family reassignment are occurring?
There most definitely has to be a national task force, even if there are no national issues because the local government has failed miserably to deal with these issues. Great legal minds must brainstorm as to how to put an end to this suffering. Action must be taken. The abuse of these American children is far greater than what we should tolerate.
I don't think the FLDS lawyer, Rod Parker, is able to comment without bias on probable cause as quoted from your article:
"That's a much more responsible approach than what's been taken in Texas with respect to the Constitution," said Rod Parker.
Obviously, he is severely biased and his job depends on successfully defending the FLDS. He's not in a position to say whether there is probably cause in Utah.
Given the vast amount of child suffering in the FLDS, something has to be done. Exactly, how much evidence do you need to realize that polygamy, child rape, abandonment, welfare fraud and family reassignment are occurring?
There most definitely has to be a national task force, even if there are no national issues because the local government has failed miserably to deal with these issues. Great legal minds must brainstorm as to how to put an end to this suffering. Action must be taken. The abuse of these American children is far greater than what we should tolerate.
Yes, "Stick to the point!" | 5:29 p.m. May 3, 2008
I agree 100%! People that try and compare their live's in the general
public with the polygamist's lives are off the mark. I saw a comment about
if one daughter in the general public that is fourteen gets pregnant then would
they have to worry about their other kids being taken away? Ridiculous! This
is about a specific mindset of young women being forced to "marry"
(spiritual or otherwise) and have sex with older men so that they can "get
to heaven". This does not apply to our problems in general society where a
young girl can get help with their pregnancies, get counseling and possibly
receive adoption advice. These poor girls in the FLDS communties do not have
this. Will all of the things that have occured be proven perfect? I'm sure
not, but at least something is being done to help those whose rights are not
recognized.
realitycheck60 | 5:59 p.m. May 3, 2008
1st - they didn't take multiple children from multiple houses. They took
multiple children from ONE household. The entire compound (including 10 ft
walls and guardtower) is one household and the children were at risk throughout
the facility. So saying they'll come for your kids is just ignorant.
2nd - these people aren't polygamists, since they aren't actually married to more than one woman. "Spiritual" marriages aren't actual marriages in the eyes of the law. So it's really just a bunch of people living together and making as many babies as they can (albeit with 14 yr olds....)
Finally - the biggest problem (other than statuatory rape) is that all these women and children were having their civil rights violated. The walls aren't to keep us out - they are to keep them in. They have no chance to experience the basic freedoms we take for granted, and need to be dispersed so they can be freed. Good for you, Texas. Break up the cult and free the women and children.
2nd - these people aren't polygamists, since they aren't actually married to more than one woman. "Spiritual" marriages aren't actual marriages in the eyes of the law. So it's really just a bunch of people living together and making as many babies as they can (albeit with 14 yr olds....)
Finally - the biggest problem (other than statuatory rape) is that all these women and children were having their civil rights violated. The walls aren't to keep us out - they are to keep them in. They have no chance to experience the basic freedoms we take for granted, and need to be dispersed so they can be freed. Good for you, Texas. Break up the cult and free the women and children.
Thank you Jarred | 6:04 p.m. May 3, 2008
I agree with you and sympathize. My great great grandmother was in a similar
situation as yours was. I was very much into geneology and researched her
history and felt her pain of polygamy (or plural marriage, for those that get
technical). I now don't believe that the "sealing" process has
any validity and I know that there are not relationships like this in heaven.
This is a heartache that religion has put on itself; it is ridiculous to me to
think that "God" requires these things. I have peace within me now
and I know my ancestors don't deal with these ridiculous things in
"heaven".
God Bless You
God Bless You
Paul | 7:46 p.m. May 3, 2008
Wrong. The authorities would not accept valid proof of the woman's age
because they know that what they did is immoral and they're grasping at
straws to justify this gross violation of the Fourth Amendment. They're
violating an adult's civil rights by illegally detaining her because she
supposedly looks like a minor. Try getting some info that isn't propaganda
from Nancy Grace, the hysteric. We'll be a Police State in ten years'
time if people don't see the handwriting on the wall. Police State:
"It's for the children, and it's to fight terra'."
Sheep: "Truth be da__ed; take my rights."
organized religion | 8:08 p.m. May 3, 2008
For the record, organized religion has caused more problems over the ages than
any other social concept in the history of mankind. Some dudes liked having sex
with children and wanted women and children to do all their cleaning and
gardening so they made up a story about interfacing with some deity so they
could control others.
It's amazing to me that the concept has lasted as long as it has. It just goes to show the gullibility of society and the evil that men are willing to propogate. I'll be glad when everyone finally realizes that religious books (bible, book of mormon, koran) were all written by men with ulterior motives, and half the time on drugs. (Why do you think most opium comes from that area?)
And if there is a God, he will care that women and children were abused and the perpetrators will simply be sent away when knocking on heavan's dooor. Whereas if you are simply a good person to everyone, and pay extra care to the weak, then all is well. No church nor prayers (nor multiple child brides in petticoats) required.
It's amazing to me that the concept has lasted as long as it has. It just goes to show the gullibility of society and the evil that men are willing to propogate. I'll be glad when everyone finally realizes that religious books (bible, book of mormon, koran) were all written by men with ulterior motives, and half the time on drugs. (Why do you think most opium comes from that area?)
And if there is a God, he will care that women and children were abused and the perpetrators will simply be sent away when knocking on heavan's dooor. Whereas if you are simply a good person to everyone, and pay extra care to the weak, then all is well. No church nor prayers (nor multiple child brides in petticoats) required.
let 'em do their thing | 9:31 p.m. May 3, 2008
I say let this thing work itself out. I mean, in one or two more generations,
all FLDS will be so deformed and retarded that they'll just wither away and
be no more anyway. Inbreeding and incest will multiply the severe retardation
that's already prevelant in their genes from the original founders. I
imagine this is God's long-term plan. It's already kicked in -
there's no other explanation for these people believing the insane
ramblings of these old men. Need multiple child brides to get to heaven? and a
woman's entire function is child-bearing and "keeping sweet" for
the men? Please.... that's just whack....
Wait - actually it's a pretty sweet racket - I like 16 yr old virgins and many women at my beck and call - where do I sign up?
Wait - actually it's a pretty sweet racket - I like 16 yr old virgins and many women at my beck and call - where do I sign up?
hey reality check | 8:25 a.m. May 4, 2008
There were 19 NINETEEN different buildings at the compound some of which the
children were removed from. Again, there were 19 different buildings. During
the day, your children attend school. I take it that you are fine with a
subdivision having one warrant including the school building that is contained
within that area.
My 18 year old | 8:34 a.m. May 4, 2008
If my 18 year old did not have identification on her person, she would indeed
have been removed. You also keep forgetting the reason these people are lying
namely Short Creek. The victims of that event told the truth and they were
subject to severe penalties for that truth. They were honest and said, these
are my wives and these are my children, these are their ages and names. What
did that get them? Prison time. Yet bizarrely you expect these very same people
to be forthcoming, though if you looked at the Bishops records you would see
many were indeed from Short Creek. If you watch youtube there was a girl that
escaped that stated that the FLDS are now waiting until girls are older. But
ultimately the problem comes down to the search warrant which, when requested by
one resident was NOT provided.
irritated brit | 3:26 p.m. May 4, 2008
I find it amazing you people are raving on about probable cause rights etc.
Where are the rights of the children not to be raped???????? oh and if you stop
and think back to 9/11 the feds had rummor and no real evidence did nothing and
what happend 3000 people lost their lives. So what do you suggest that they
continue sitting on their hands just to keep people happy. Boo hoo get a grip if
even one of these suggestions are right. THEN THEY HAVE DONE THE RIGHT THING
good on em. sometimes it takes one person to have the guts to make that move
that can make a difference maybe 10 years ago if someone had made a move the
twin towers might not be down. and soldiers wouldnt be dyeing every day. Lets
hope these kids are safe and the women can get help to recover from the years of
mental torture they have suffered. Well done CPS and all the people involved i
know you will sleep well tonight.
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Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret News
U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman talks Thursday in Salt Lake City about federal efforts to investigate polygamous groups.
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How about teaching something AND practicing the same thing?
Ever heard of Modis Operandi (MO)? Police use it all the time to catch criminals because they repeat the same types of crimes over and over.
If the FLDS have already forced many underage girls into "spiritual" marriages and are grooming other girls to be objects of the same type of crime, you honestly expect reasonable people to believe that that isn't evidence that the children are "at risk" of being abused?