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Feds are stymied in probes of FLDS
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Thomas | 2:27 a.m. May 2, 2008
Leave these people alone
Eye Dee Ten Tee | 2:54 a.m. May 2, 2008
Rumor and innuendo do not establish probable cause for the feds, but hey, if
you're the Texas CPS, rumor and innuendo work just fine.
I know they are justified by finding 30% of the teenage girls are or have been pregnant.They could find near to the same statistics in inner city high schools. Macciavelli couldn't be happier.
My prayers go out to those at the mercy of CPS everywhere. They are so used to operating outside of the rule of law they have become lazy, and individual rights, innocent until proven guilty, and probable cause are just inconviniences that can be ignored.
I know they are justified by finding 30% of the teenage girls are or have been pregnant.They could find near to the same statistics in inner city high schools. Macciavelli couldn't be happier.
My prayers go out to those at the mercy of CPS everywhere. They are so used to operating outside of the rule of law they have become lazy, and individual rights, innocent until proven guilty, and probable cause are just inconviniences that can be ignored.
Comments continue below
just thinking II | 5:06 a.m. May 2, 2008
finally a voice of reason from FBI in SLC, vs. the lynch mob mentaity of Reid
et. al. we live in a country of laws. the FLDS are entilted to protection of
those laws. we may not approve of what they are doing but the claims of the
bloggers on these pages have gone to the extreme. next we will hear that the
FLDS have stolen 16 horses from the good people of texas. (these were the
charges against the mormons in 1844, all over the state each town had lost 16
horses to the mormons.) tasks force needs to remain secrect so the work can be
done. not anounced from the evening news.
jac | 5:18 a.m. May 2, 2008
Contrived rage at the moral turpitude of polygomous living is a convenient
display when the people who are ostensibily aghast at the notion of early,
plural marriage are themselves involved in extra-marital relations or regular
pre-marital sexual activity.
earthchild | 6:28 a.m. May 2, 2008
Hum Reading between the lines here it seems even the Feds think texas blatently
steped accross constitutional lines. This is a veiw I hold. If the mythical
Sarah had called 911 or CPS their arguement that the warrents were legal would
hold more water but as it stands CPS workers used rumor or hearsay to get the
warrent and they knew that the person listed in the warrent wasn't even
there before the raid was conducted. It's all fruit from a poisonous tree.
It's cruel and heavy handed and unjust to punish the many for the actions
of a few.
Libertarian Part2 | 6:31 a.m. May 2, 2008
Want the real solution to the polygamy problem? De-criminalize it and hold those
that practice it accountable for their actions. Underage wives? Go to jail. More
than one family? No welfare services, since by having more families you are
stating loud and clear that you can support them.
Bringing polygamy out in the open would expose it as a system that just won't work in today's world. At the same time it would remedy the problems that currently concern the government, as open societies are easier to monitor. Perhaps it would also relieve these groups of the abuse and in-breeding problems that occur in secret.
Bringing polygamy out in the open would expose it as a system that just won't work in today's world. At the same time it would remedy the problems that currently concern the government, as open societies are easier to monitor. Perhaps it would also relieve these groups of the abuse and in-breeding problems that occur in secret.
wrz | 7:16 a.m. May 2, 2008
>>Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid is urging the U.S. Justice Department
to create a federal task force to look into polygamy and related
crimes.<<
What Harry Reid should be looking into is prostitution and gambling in his home state of Nevada. Vile conduct that equals and far exceeds polygamy.
What Harry Reid should be looking into is prostitution and gambling in his home state of Nevada. Vile conduct that equals and far exceeds polygamy.
Changing the Culture | 7:15 a.m. May 2, 2008
Hopefully, after Jeffs and the other FLDS ringleaders are tried and put away,
the FLDS will find new leadership who will abandon this practice of forcing
young girls to get married. Hopefully, they'll find some way to amend their
belief that requires every man has to have at least 3 wives in order to get to
the highest level of Heaven. Then, the FLDS won't have to manufacture
excuses to kick 2/3 of the boys out of their community so that they can maintain
a 3:1 ratio of girls to boys.
Otherwise, the abuse of children within the FLDS community will continue behind closed doors.
Otherwise, the abuse of children within the FLDS community will continue behind closed doors.
TheMadNuker | 7:20 a.m. May 2, 2008
Letter to Feds: Harry needs your help to distract
the people from paying high prices on fuel ,food, etc. We need a "National Witch Hunt". We must find
witches, or the peasants might ask questions why
the Elites will not allow America to develope our
own oil and gas, and get away from OPEC. Go get em
Harry. And when you have exhausted the witch list,
go after the goblins.
the people from paying high prices on fuel ,food, etc. We need a "National Witch Hunt". We must find
witches, or the peasants might ask questions why
the Elites will not allow America to develope our
own oil and gas, and get away from OPEC. Go get em
Harry. And when you have exhausted the witch list,
go after the goblins.
probable cause | 7:31 a.m. May 2, 2008
Looks like Texas should have taken a few lessons from the Feds. imprisoning a
whole community on the grounds that a few girls APPEARED to look pregnant. I
sometimes look pregnant and I'm just a guy with a big gut. I"m gonna
stay outta Texas Y'all.
PLEASE... | 7:37 a.m. May 2, 2008
...IN THE MEANTIME BIGAMY PERSISTS!
...IN THE MEANTIME PEDOPHILIA PERSISTS!
...IN THE MEANTIME CHILD ABUSE PERSISTS!
...IN THE MEANTIME WELFARE IS BEING ABUSED!
Isn't our legal sysem wonderful?
...IN THE MEANTIME PEDOPHILIA PERSISTS!
...IN THE MEANTIME CHILD ABUSE PERSISTS!
...IN THE MEANTIME WELFARE IS BEING ABUSED!
Isn't our legal sysem wonderful?
MAYHEM MIKE | 7:58 a.m. May 2, 2008
To "Libertarian Part 2": You solution is sensible! Why don't you
run for office and replace those who are so devoid of common sense?
getreal | 8:10 a.m. May 2, 2008
The difference with these 14-17 year olds being pregnant, is that they had no
choice. They did not "hook-up" with the cute boy from gym class. They
were "given" to dirty old men. People please..
Research! Look up lost boys, look up the stories of those who escaped FLDS. And please, read the Texas Family Code before you go spouting off about how Texas CPS disregarded the law. One of the girls who "appeared" to be pregnant just gave birth to what "appeared" to be an infant. Let us give these children a chance.
Research! Look up lost boys, look up the stories of those who escaped FLDS. And please, read the Texas Family Code before you go spouting off about how Texas CPS disregarded the law. One of the girls who "appeared" to be pregnant just gave birth to what "appeared" to be an infant. Let us give these children a chance.
To: Child Rape Apologists | 8:16 a.m. May 2, 2008
The FBI said they haven't been able to establish probable cause for a
federal charge.
"Child abuse, rape and incest are all state-level crimes. So is bigamy."
Texas was fully justified in taking all the children into protective custody to stop further child abuse.
"Child abuse, rape and incest are all state-level crimes. So is bigamy."
Texas was fully justified in taking all the children into protective custody to stop further child abuse.
Rico | 8:18 a.m. May 2, 2008
When is the task force and raid going to happen for the Jerry Springer show?
Libertarian, what if polgamy was de-criminalized and did work? All therories aside, there are quietly practicing polygomests who are not breaking any other law, who seem to be getting along just fine. On the other hand, if the practice were de-criminalized, HBO wold have to cancel one of their series and half of the Anti-mormon wed sites would have to find something else to complain about.
Libertarian, what if polgamy was de-criminalized and did work? All therories aside, there are quietly practicing polygomests who are not breaking any other law, who seem to be getting along just fine. On the other hand, if the practice were de-criminalized, HBO wold have to cancel one of their series and half of the Anti-mormon wed sites would have to find something else to complain about.
Outraged | 8:21 a.m. May 2, 2008
At what point do the feds step in when the Constitutional rights of citizens are
trampled upon? There's far more than rumor and innuendo to go on. There
are hard facts.
Bruce | 8:22 a.m. May 2, 2008
Educating the FLDS members of the concerns of being a young mother and then
leaving them alone is the only real answer. The belief system says that plural
marriage is necessary to reach the Celestial Kingdom. They are not about to stop
practicing it because of some man-made law.
You can prosecute all you want...make all the age laws that you want...and it's not going to make one bit of difference. You CANNOT legislate peoples religious convictions....the more you try...the more convicted they are. Wake up folks. Kids and parents are suffering while we figure this out.
You can prosecute all you want...make all the age laws that you want...and it's not going to make one bit of difference. You CANNOT legislate peoples religious convictions....the more you try...the more convicted they are. Wake up folks. Kids and parents are suffering while we figure this out.
to PLEASE | 8:23 a.m. May 2, 2008
If the law is against you argue facts.
If the facts are against you argue law.
If the facts and the law are against you argue LOUD. Is this why you are yelling.. Remember its all just been allegations.
If the facts are against you argue law.
If the facts and the law are against you argue LOUD. Is this why you are yelling.. Remember its all just been allegations.
re: Eye Dee Ten Tee | 8:33 a.m. May 2, 2008
"I know they are justified by finding 30% of the teenage girls are or have
been pregnant.They could find near to the same statistics in inner city high
schools."
Actually, it was 60%, but that really doesn't matter to you because there's no significant difference between an inner-city high school and the FLDS ranch.
Of course for accurate comparision:
-The inner-city high school principal would have to have ultimate authority to institute any rule he saw fit.
-Every female student would be forced into a sexual relationship with a male teacher chosen by the principal as soon as she reached puberty.
-The parents would be fully supportive of every decision made by the principal.
-None of the students would be permitted to leave the school without the express permission of the principal.
-There would be a 3 to 1 ration of girls to boys in the school, since 2/3 of the boys would have been expelled from the school because the principal didn't like them.
Actually, it was 60%, but that really doesn't matter to you because there's no significant difference between an inner-city high school and the FLDS ranch.
Of course for accurate comparision:
-The inner-city high school principal would have to have ultimate authority to institute any rule he saw fit.
-Every female student would be forced into a sexual relationship with a male teacher chosen by the principal as soon as she reached puberty.
-The parents would be fully supportive of every decision made by the principal.
-None of the students would be permitted to leave the school without the express permission of the principal.
-There would be a 3 to 1 ration of girls to boys in the school, since 2/3 of the boys would have been expelled from the school because the principal didn't like them.
Fed Shmed | 8:38 a.m. May 2, 2008
The Fed needs to move over & take notes from any CPS group.
Here is what the Feds list should start with:
1. Constitutional rights, suspended because we're right.
2. Due process of law, only if it's our law.
3. Unproven allegations, we can prove that we made them up.
4. Parents are unfit, all parents are unfit.
CPS the "Parent" for future generations & education by the "Nanny" state.
Here is what the Feds list should start with:
1. Constitutional rights, suspended because we're right.
2. Due process of law, only if it's our law.
3. Unproven allegations, we can prove that we made them up.
4. Parents are unfit, all parents are unfit.
CPS the "Parent" for future generations & education by the "Nanny" state.
just visiting (short creek) | 8:49 a.m. May 2, 2008
My husband, was sent to short creek, when he was seven. His grandpa was
involved there. He ran away from the (creek) one night and made it clear to St.
George. He was tracked down by two of his grandpas wifes,they brought him back
to the creek and he was tied up to a bed for two days. They were mean to him.
They are still to this day mean to the children. He is 70 years old and still
talks about the torture he went through while he was down there.
Re: Outraged | 8:51 a.m. May 2, 2008
"At what point do the feds step in when the Constitutional rights of
citizens are trampled upon?"
In your opinion, are children entitled to Constitutional rights, such as the right to "Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness," or do those rights only belong to dirty old men who need another notch on their belt to achieve Heavenly glory?
In your opinion, are children entitled to Constitutional rights, such as the right to "Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness," or do those rights only belong to dirty old men who need another notch on their belt to achieve Heavenly glory?
Ralph | 8:53 a.m. May 2, 2008
Hey, aren't copyrights reserved for stuff only you have? Everyone has this,
the radio and TV and that other SLC paper.
Anonymous | 9:05 a.m. May 2, 2008
...unless you're in Texas, then you just go raid the whole town, haul off
the entire population, and send them out to foster homes--without any due
process.
Re: Bruce's Convictions | 9:05 a.m. May 2, 2008
"You CANNOT legislate peoples religious convictions"
So, if a pedophile decides to start his own religion, he'll be free to sexually abuse children as long as he declares pedophilia to be part of his deeply held religious convictions?
So, if a pedophile decides to start his own religion, he'll be free to sexually abuse children as long as he declares pedophilia to be part of his deeply held religious convictions?
TO eye | 9:06 a.m. May 2, 2008
Did you not read the actual article? The Feds don't want to get involved
because, so far, the crimes committed are state crimes and not federal crimes.
And to the person that responded to you about:
"
-The inner-city high school principal would have to have ultimate authority to institute any rule he saw fit.
-Every female student would be forced into a sexual relationship with a male teacher chosen by the principal as soon as she reached puberty.
-The parents would be fully supportive of every decision made by the principal.
-None of the students would be permitted to leave the school without the express permission of the principal.
-There would be a 3 to 1 ration of girls to boys in the school, since 2/3 of the boys would have been expelled from the school because the principal didn't like them."
Bravo! You hit the nail on the head.
And to the person that responded to you about:
"
-The inner-city high school principal would have to have ultimate authority to institute any rule he saw fit.
-Every female student would be forced into a sexual relationship with a male teacher chosen by the principal as soon as she reached puberty.
-The parents would be fully supportive of every decision made by the principal.
-None of the students would be permitted to leave the school without the express permission of the principal.
-There would be a 3 to 1 ration of girls to boys in the school, since 2/3 of the boys would have been expelled from the school because the principal didn't like them."
Bravo! You hit the nail on the head.
Re: hmmmm | 9:14 a.m. May 2, 2008
Stop with the sensationalism. Just stupid. Don't you think these women
would get noticed in the Health and Welfare office??? Did you even know you are
required to apply in person, and be interviewed??? Did you even know that they
check into all income, and assets of the whole household??? If you don't
work at H&W and see these women apply, shut up.
red herring | 9:16 a.m. May 2, 2008
RED HERRING IS A TYPE OF FALLACY!
transplant | 9:16 a.m. May 2, 2008
to libertarian: more than one family - cut off welfare.
"welfare" is AID TO DEPENDENT CHILDREN. You are advocating cutting off access to food from children who have no control over being born or what decisions their parents make. This country is wealthy enough to guarantee food to all of our children. We have the authority to seize assests of people who think they can live by cheating the system. This cult has assests of a known $100 million. If they manage to get by the gatekeepers and collect money illegaly the state or states, in which they collect this money, can go after them. The sticking point may be the Trust. I don't know how ironclad it is but I would bet that there is alimit to what degree these monies are protected.
"welfare" is AID TO DEPENDENT CHILDREN. You are advocating cutting off access to food from children who have no control over being born or what decisions their parents make. This country is wealthy enough to guarantee food to all of our children. We have the authority to seize assests of people who think they can live by cheating the system. This cult has assests of a known $100 million. If they manage to get by the gatekeepers and collect money illegaly the state or states, in which they collect this money, can go after them. The sticking point may be the Trust. I don't know how ironclad it is but I would bet that there is alimit to what degree these monies are protected.
wrz | 9:19 a.m. May 2, 2008
>>In your opinion, are children entitled to Constitutional rights, such as
the right to "Life, LIBERTY, and the pursuit of happiness," or do
those rights only belong to dirty old men who need another notch on their belt
to achieve Heavenly glory?<<
Those Constitutional Rights belong to all people... including the mothers and children who were violently, in some cases, ripped from their homes and incarcerated by the government. We saw this in Germany when Jews were rounded up, transported away via cattle car trains. At least these women and children were transported by Baptist buses.
Those Constitutional Rights belong to all people... including the mothers and children who were violently, in some cases, ripped from their homes and incarcerated by the government. We saw this in Germany when Jews were rounded up, transported away via cattle car trains. At least these women and children were transported by Baptist buses.
Judy | 9:21 a.m. May 2, 2008
The teen pregnancy rate in DC (which is the best measure of urban teen
pregnancy rates because it is the only jurisdiction that is all city) is 4.2
percent. That means that about 25 percent of girls get pregnant in junior high
and high school. That is less than HALF the rate in the FLDS compound! While
some urban pregnancies are the result of rape, statutory rape, incest and sexual
abuse, most fathers are boys who are about the same age. The rate is still too
high but there has been a huge improvement over the last 20 years as a result of
welfare reform and girls perceiving a bright future if they don't become
mothers early. Wouldn't it be wonderful if FLDS girls had the same bright
future horizons and choices?
Go for it! | 9:23 a.m. May 2, 2008
The FLDS men need to be stopped. The FLDS men are true sex criminals!
Anonymous | 9:23 a.m. May 2, 2008
Everything possible must be done to help the children who have fallen victim to
these sex cults.
Re: wrz | 9:33 a.m. May 2, 2008
"incarcerated by the government"???
Germany was sending the Jews to concentration camps to be exterminated.
Texas was freeing the children from the clutches of predatory old men who were using them as sex slaves.
Germany was sending the Jews to concentration camps to be exterminated.
Texas was freeing the children from the clutches of predatory old men who were using them as sex slaves.
Teen pregnancy | 9:42 a.m. May 2, 2008
Here is the problem with using teen statistics v. the FLDS. Teen pregnancy
statistics include 18 and 19 year olds which are legal ages of consent. People
are throwing FLDS numbers that go up to 17, then comparing the regular
population to age 19.
duh | 9:45 a.m. May 2, 2008
The Feds can't find probable cause? It's probably because none of the
Feds are from Texas where they don't need probable cause.
Marlene Kaiser | 9:55 a.m. May 2, 2008
I'm concerned for the developmentally disabled and deformed children that
would be born from such close relationships with their parents. This is a
problem in other communities - Amish, Hudderites, Menonites- that are not
polygymous.
If there is a great deal of intermarriage the percent of disabled rises dramatically, so what is happening here. I read about a graveyard, is that where they are? Also what about the elderly, it would be very difficult to take care of them because of how long we live today. There is so much more to examine in these communities.
If there is a great deal of intermarriage the percent of disabled rises dramatically, so what is happening here. I read about a graveyard, is that where they are? Also what about the elderly, it would be very difficult to take care of them because of how long we live today. There is so much more to examine in these communities.
maddy | 9:56 a.m. May 2, 2008
If they cant get Flds on incest, polygamy, why cant the federal authorities
investigate all the FEDERAL CONTRACTS involved with flds, and the fact, they
make young children work on those construction sites? And the fact, the men who
work on them arent Paid or paid nearly nothing. What about IRS, do any of these
people pay TAXES??
Get the men | 10:05 a.m. May 2, 2008
The people here who are guilty are the men who have taken advantage of little
girls. The women don't know any different because they were raised by
these sicko men, and taught from birth that it's "God's
Way".
amazed | 10:11 a.m. May 2, 2008
I think we all have to take into consideration that CPS claims alot of these
girls are under age when they have birth certificates,and some also have state
issued drivers licenses but thats not an acceptable form of ID to CPS because
"they just look younger" I think CPS should be held liable for every
false accusation they make. Its been plenty long enough for them to discover any
abuse and they have gotten more desperate all the time first the girls (turns
out they really aren't so young) then the boys (because of some journal
excerpts leaves me wondering whose journal?) and then theyv'e broken some
bones in the past.Why would they even disclose that to the media before they
investigated it seems to say it all they are really desperate to try to justify
what they've done maybe tomorrow well be hearing about how abusive they
were because they dressed them in ugly clothes and combed their hair weird. GIVE
THEIR CHILDREN BACK!!!
Anonymous | 10:29 a.m. May 2, 2008
Here we have it again, Those that think they can decide what is right for
others. Stop and think if there was as much abuse as people on this blog thinks
we would see much more cases tried in the court system. I know it may be hard
for some of you bloggers to understand but these Mothers and Children do have
their choices. They have made them. Children are raised to believe has their
parents do, just as we would raise our children, I am personally aware of many
girls in the FLDS that want to be married young 16-18 and they are told they
need to wait. I don't agree with abuse at all but I have educated myself
on others believe to see that there are two sides to this story.
Joe Arpaio | 10:29 a.m. May 2, 2008
Its called Fumarase disease a Enzyme Deficientcy with the highest rate in the
world amongst the FLDS in Northern Arizona. It causes severe mental
retardation. Its largely an expense of Arizona Taxpayers.
feds | 10:38 a.m. May 2, 2008
The feds will be involved just as soon as the DNA tests come back. There are
children that have been moved across state lines without the consent of their
ex-communicated fathers. The children were reassigned to "new"
fathers when Warreen Jeffs tossed these men out. This will not be a state crime
but a federal one.
Re: amazed | 10:50 a.m. May 2, 2008
Nice strawmen, but, the bottom line is the children will be returned when the
state has finished its investigation and has determined which children are safe
to be returned to their families.
The FLDS complicated the process by giving false and misleading identities and ages. Maybe some of the birth certificates and drivers licenses are legitimate, maybe some of the girls are 18 or older, but, since the FLDS have lied about so many other things, CPS is forced to go with their own best judgement until identities, ages, and relationships are legally confirmed.
The FLDS complicated the process by giving false and misleading identities and ages. Maybe some of the birth certificates and drivers licenses are legitimate, maybe some of the girls are 18 or older, but, since the FLDS have lied about so many other things, CPS is forced to go with their own best judgement until identities, ages, and relationships are legally confirmed.
tabascokat | 10:53 a.m. May 2, 2008
Whatever happened to "innocent until proven guilty"?
Personal opinions are irrelevant. Circumstantial evidence can't convict anyone, and if they started removing pregnant teens across america, and children who'd had borken bones, more children would be parentless that not.
The government, as it has so many times, has far overreached it's legal bounds, and is scrambling to find some justification for their actions.
Personal opinions are irrelevant. Circumstantial evidence can't convict anyone, and if they started removing pregnant teens across america, and children who'd had borken bones, more children would be parentless that not.
The government, as it has so many times, has far overreached it's legal bounds, and is scrambling to find some justification for their actions.
Alex | 10:53 a.m. May 2, 2008
The only way the FLDS could be collecting welfare is if their children are
registered with the state (by SS number). This brings my point. If these
children are undocumented, how could the FLDS possibly be either collecting
welfare on them or claiming them as dependents on their taxes? How could there
possibly be welfare fraud if the state doesn't know of the existence of
these FLDS children in the first place? Huh?
Re: Anonymous | 11:11 a.m. May 2, 2008
"Children are raised to believe has their parents do"
This is true in most families, religious or not.
The biggest difference between the FLDS children and most children of other faiths, is most of the other children are exposed to the outside world and given an opportunity to make their own choices based on all available options.
The FLDS girls aren't given any choices. They're told that the outside world is a dangerous place that most of them will never be allowed to visit. Then, they're told by their parents and church leaders that when the time is right, the church leaders will decide who the girl will marry.
You can't really say that the girls have a choice, when they don't even know what the options are.
This is true in most families, religious or not.
The biggest difference between the FLDS children and most children of other faiths, is most of the other children are exposed to the outside world and given an opportunity to make their own choices based on all available options.
The FLDS girls aren't given any choices. They're told that the outside world is a dangerous place that most of them will never be allowed to visit. Then, they're told by their parents and church leaders that when the time is right, the church leaders will decide who the girl will marry.
You can't really say that the girls have a choice, when they don't even know what the options are.
Cougarkeith | 11:28 a.m. May 2, 2008
Don't you know by now... Government IS THE ANSWER FOR EVERYTHING!!! They
can and will fix the FLDS's little red wagon! They will show them who is
boss!
re: tabascokat | 11:34 a.m. May 2, 2008
Do you know the difference between an allegation and a conviction?
Do you know the difference between protective custody and arrest?
The government was within its legal and moral grounds to protect these kids from alleged child abuse until the government finishes its investigation.
Do you know the difference between protective custody and arrest?
The government was within its legal and moral grounds to protect these kids from alleged child abuse until the government finishes its investigation.
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Jeffrey D. Allred, Deseret News
U.S. Attorney for Utah Brett Tolman talks Thursday in Salt Lake City about federal efforts to investigate polygamous groups.
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i would guess that many woman are collecting from
Arizona or Utah and living in Texas