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State's top child welfare official: FLDS children have broken bones
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byron | 2:50 p.m. April 30, 2008
why is this news? This has to be about the national average. Are they now going
to report all the things that are normal from now on? or is the state of Texas
and the media trying to slander the FLDS with misleading statistics?
RN | 2:54 p.m. April 30, 2008
to-Me
Whoopers--huh? That was truly brilliant. Which state UTAH or TEXAS?
I'm certain the Texas medical team knows more about this situation than anyone does in Utah. Meaning they are the ones dealing with the FLDS kids with broken bones.
Whoopers--huh? That was truly brilliant. Which state UTAH or TEXAS?
I'm certain the Texas medical team knows more about this situation than anyone does in Utah. Meaning they are the ones dealing with the FLDS kids with broken bones.
Re: Tarheels | 2:54 p.m. April 30, 2008
"It is unlikely that Child Protective Services will ever be able to present
any credible evidence that any child at YFZ Ranch was abused."
And you base this brilliant assumption on what, your reading of the tea leaves?
Give Texas time. They're still trying to figure out who the parents of each child are, not, by the way, with any help from the FLDS who have done everything they possibly could to try to obstruct justice.
Maybe the FLDS are completely innocent of all of the allegations of abuse. Given their history of abuse, the conviction of their leader for child sexual abuse, the pregnant teens, the reports of abuse in the diaries of the boys, the lack of legal birth and marriage documents, it's doubtful that they are innocent, but possible.
And you base this brilliant assumption on what, your reading of the tea leaves?
Give Texas time. They're still trying to figure out who the parents of each child are, not, by the way, with any help from the FLDS who have done everything they possibly could to try to obstruct justice.
Maybe the FLDS are completely innocent of all of the allegations of abuse. Given their history of abuse, the conviction of their leader for child sexual abuse, the pregnant teens, the reports of abuse in the diaries of the boys, the lack of legal birth and marriage documents, it's doubtful that they are innocent, but possible.
Comments continue below
Response to Gal50 | 2:55 p.m. April 30, 2008
You sound like one of those CPS thugs! Do they pay you extra for promoting this
trash?
Broken Bones? | 2:56 p.m. April 30, 2008
Let's get a count of the percentage of CPS workers that have ever broken
bones and compare it with the national average and with the children. I've
been healthy and athletic all my life(over 55 now) and I've broken numerous
bones: fingers, toes, my arm, collar bone, a rib, etc. I was an active kid,
working and playing out doors, climbing trees, helping my parents with planting
and building structures, playing tag, etc. There are plenty of ways to
accidently break bones.
wondering | 2:56 p.m. April 30, 2008
I am not being sarcastic. Just wondering. Polygamy is when you legally marry a
person when you have not legally divorced another first. These FLDS marriages
are not legal. It's a leader performing a spiritual marriage so the
2nd,3rd, etc wives are not legally wed to the man. How can you prosecute a man
for polygamy when he's only legally wed to one woman? Personally, I do not
understand these women. It would be a cold day in hades before I allow my
husband to take another woman. I believe I have a love for my fellow beings. I
will go out of my way to help someone. but I do not have enough love to go for
that. No sir!
getreal | 2:58 p.m. April 30, 2008
Please read "When Men become gods" and "escape"; then
comment. Children are groomed for abuse. It is a way of life in
"Zion".
G | 2:59 p.m. April 30, 2008
"Give the doctors time."
This story would have been better received if CPS had
"given the doctors time" before proclaiming that 10% of the kids' having fractures indicates "systematic abuse". Statements like that undermine CPS credibility.
"If FLDS were doing nothing wrong or if they honestly believed they were doing nothing wrong, why lie and behave as they are."
Probably because they've figured out that Texas is not acting in good faith. And if Texas is so assured
that they have a good case, why do they keep throwing stories like this at the media? They've contradicted themselves enough times by now. Clearly they're afraid they might be having a PR problem. Or are trying to influence future juries.
This story would have been better received if CPS had
"given the doctors time" before proclaiming that 10% of the kids' having fractures indicates "systematic abuse". Statements like that undermine CPS credibility.
"If FLDS were doing nothing wrong or if they honestly believed they were doing nothing wrong, why lie and behave as they are."
Probably because they've figured out that Texas is not acting in good faith. And if Texas is so assured
that they have a good case, why do they keep throwing stories like this at the media? They've contradicted themselves enough times by now. Clearly they're afraid they might be having a PR problem. Or are trying to influence future juries.
Anonymous | 3:01 p.m. April 30, 2008
The only ways CPS can know if these kids have/have had broken bones would be
if:
A. They obtained medical records for them, and as many here have stated, many children experience such injuries. or..
B. They did radiological studies on them, which would expose them to unnecessary radiation for which the parents (and the rest of us)should be T.O.'d
I very much doubt either of these things has taken place.
This cannot be accurate reporting.
A. They obtained medical records for them, and as many here have stated, many children experience such injuries. or..
B. They did radiological studies on them, which would expose them to unnecessary radiation for which the parents (and the rest of us)should be T.O.'d
I very much doubt either of these things has taken place.
This cannot be accurate reporting.
Re: radiologist | 3:00 p.m. April 30, 2008
If your radiologist friend can't tell the difference between a fracture and
a line left in a bone because of a growth spurt, he should have his license
revoked.
Blame Xbox | 3:07 p.m. April 30, 2008
Maybe it is because these kids are actually enjoying life. They aren't
wasting life in front of Sesame Street or GTAV on the Xbox. Children break
bones, especially ones who put themselves in harms way by actually spending
times out of doors, rough housing with their friends.
Re: me | 3:07 p.m. April 30, 2008
I agree with much of what you say, but it is CPS that keeps throwing out the
generalized accusations to the media. Is that professional? What purpose does
it serve? They asked the Texas legislators to ask their questions in private
after throwing out generalized comments (41 kids with broken bones, 4 boys that
were potentially sexually abused). Why didn't they express these concerns
in private?
Their suggestions and accusations do not help the children (they are already in foster care). They do not assist their cases - these will be held in court starting later next month, and nothing said to the media should have any bearing on those cases.
So what are they doing? It only makes them appear unprofessional at best and manipulative at worst. They hold almost all the power here - why bully in the media?
Their suggestions and accusations do not help the children (they are already in foster care). They do not assist their cases - these will be held in court starting later next month, and nothing said to the media should have any bearing on those cases.
So what are they doing? It only makes them appear unprofessional at best and manipulative at worst. They hold almost all the power here - why bully in the media?
Deseret religious censor | 3:09 p.m. April 30, 2008
It is impressive how the poly intentions of the Deseret paper are bias against
the FLDS mothers.
It is nauseating to read over and over how little by little they create the image of criminals of a group of "renegade LDS" whom exercise the right define and workship G-d in their own understanding. Of course no the LDS' G-d.
The journalist assignated to this event are LDS mormon journalist which probably suffer synecdoche.
They can not abandone their bias for their beliefs.
It is logaoedic to encounter these kind of journalist in USA. totally epizeuxis and prozeugma.
It is nauseating to read over and over how little by little they create the image of criminals of a group of "renegade LDS" whom exercise the right define and workship G-d in their own understanding. Of course no the LDS' G-d.
The journalist assignated to this event are LDS mormon journalist which probably suffer synecdoche.
They can not abandone their bias for their beliefs.
It is logaoedic to encounter these kind of journalist in USA. totally epizeuxis and prozeugma.
chemist | 3:12 p.m. April 30, 2008
The good thing is that the longer this drags out the longer it will be before
any of the children are returned to the YFZ compound. If it goes on for 3-5
years many of the older children will be of age and may decide to not go back.
Maybe the flds should keep on obfuscating the investigation.
Not News | 3:12 p.m. April 30, 2008
It's almost laughable when someone complains about the newsworthiness of an
article that they themselves found interesting enough to read.
The news media are in a no win situation. If they don't publish an article, they're accused of censorship. If they do, and someone doesn't like the possible implications of an article, the media are accused of having an agenda or spreading propaganda
The news media are in a no win situation. If they don't publish an article, they're accused of censorship. If they do, and someone doesn't like the possible implications of an article, the media are accused of having an agenda or spreading propaganda
Re: Not News | 3:55 p.m. April 30, 2008
I don't blame the media for reporting it - it is news. I question why CPS
is passing this stuff on to the media. What purpose does it serve?
Re: Not News | 4:09 p.m. April 30, 2008
I don't have a problem with the media reporting it - it is news. I wonder
why CPS is passing this stuff to the media. What valid purpose does it serve?
Aren't they supposed to use discretion? After all, they are dealing with
minors.
G | 4:21 p.m. April 30, 2008
"Maybe the flds should keep on obfuscating the investigation."
Maybe they should. This costs Texas $60,000 a day, according to reports. 5 years of it, billing only weekdays, will run up a $78 million dollar bill, or $179,000/child. And FLDS hasn't even started filing civil lawsuits yet.
Maybe they should. This costs Texas $60,000 a day, according to reports. 5 years of it, billing only weekdays, will run up a $78 million dollar bill, or $179,000/child. And FLDS hasn't even started filing civil lawsuits yet.
Joseph Tucken | 4:22 p.m. April 30, 2008
What an horrible tragedy for these USA mothers.
Polygamy in Utah and other states may be a crime.
In other part of this world is still practiced.
How insignificant is men in the flow of existence.
Polygamy yesterday was acceptable by the Mormon G-d,
today is not.
These brave mothers need help, information, understanding, love and compassion.
It seems or at least I get the impression, that LDS Mormons consider them their enemy and at any cost they want them to vanish.
How arrogant and inhuman are some comments.
I beg to the Creator to help these mothers and children.
Polygamy in Utah and other states may be a crime.
In other part of this world is still practiced.
How insignificant is men in the flow of existence.
Polygamy yesterday was acceptable by the Mormon G-d,
today is not.
These brave mothers need help, information, understanding, love and compassion.
It seems or at least I get the impression, that LDS Mormons consider them their enemy and at any cost they want them to vanish.
How arrogant and inhuman are some comments.
I beg to the Creator to help these mothers and children.
Correct % of children | 4:25 p.m. April 30, 2008
Some are grossly underestimating the percentage of children with broken bones.
For one thing, very young children's bones are still soft and don't
break. So you'd have to eliminate all the kids younger than roughly school
age. For another, that may be the largest number of the children in custody.
Then, if you take the ratio of 41 with broken bones to the number school age and above, you'd get a more representative percentage. I suspect it would be high. In any case, it would be *well* above 10%.
Then there's the matter of boys who have been sexually abused. What percentage of that are you going to rationalize away?
Then, if you take the ratio of 41 with broken bones to the number school age and above, you'd get a more representative percentage. I suspect it would be high. In any case, it would be *well* above 10%.
Then there's the matter of boys who have been sexually abused. What percentage of that are you going to rationalize away?
Rich | 4:28 p.m. April 30, 2008
Sticks and stones
may break their BONES
but naming their daddies
may never hurt them
may break their BONES
but naming their daddies
may never hurt them
Deseret Dawg | 4:29 p.m. April 30, 2008
This report is nothing but a propaganda ploy by Texas CPS to prejudice the
population further against the FLDS. So ten percent of their kids have had
broken bones - many mainstream kids have also had broken bones. That's a
part of growing up.
What we as citizens need to be concerned with is the increasing propensity of government to target unpopular or marginal groups like sex offenders or FLDS and use them as test beds to acclimate the rest of the population to accept greater restrictions on liberty.
I also object to the phrase "renegade Mormons". This impinges upon the FLDS' integrity. A more precise phrase would be "dissident Mormons", reflecting the fact that they dissented from the mainstream LDS Church and formed their own denomination.
What we as citizens need to be concerned with is the increasing propensity of government to target unpopular or marginal groups like sex offenders or FLDS and use them as test beds to acclimate the rest of the population to accept greater restrictions on liberty.
I also object to the phrase "renegade Mormons". This impinges upon the FLDS' integrity. A more precise phrase would be "dissident Mormons", reflecting the fact that they dissented from the mainstream LDS Church and formed their own denomination.
Natalya | 4:36 p.m. April 30, 2008
Approximately 55 percent of all children break at least one bone before the age
of 18 years (Source: Jones IE, Williams SM, Dow N, et al. How many children
remain fracture-free during growth? Osteoporos Int
2002;13:990�5).
In a group of children between 0 and 18 with evenly distributed ages 27.5% would have history of bone fractions. With only 9% of children having the history of broken bones YFZ ranch is doing remarkably well.
In these series of idiotic actions by CPA, I have not seen a single one that was in interest of these children so far:
-They took toddlers from their nursing mothers. (Babies were in danger of being sexually assaulted by their mothers?)
-They moved children from a ranch with fresh air and local organic produce to crowded foster homes with processed food. (Ankle Sam said that that processed food is OK).
-They took to foster homes women who did not look like adults. (Have they ever seen a healthy young woman without makeup?)
-They took presumed victims into custody and left presumed perpetrators free. Shouldn�t it be all the way around?
CPA overreacted at first � and now tries to justify their actions.
In a group of children between 0 and 18 with evenly distributed ages 27.5% would have history of bone fractions. With only 9% of children having the history of broken bones YFZ ranch is doing remarkably well.
In these series of idiotic actions by CPA, I have not seen a single one that was in interest of these children so far:
-They took toddlers from their nursing mothers. (Babies were in danger of being sexually assaulted by their mothers?)
-They moved children from a ranch with fresh air and local organic produce to crowded foster homes with processed food. (Ankle Sam said that that processed food is OK).
-They took to foster homes women who did not look like adults. (Have they ever seen a healthy young woman without makeup?)
-They took presumed victims into custody and left presumed perpetrators free. Shouldn�t it be all the way around?
CPA overreacted at first � and now tries to justify their actions.
G | 4:40 p.m. April 30, 2008
"So you'd have to eliminate all the kids younger than roughly school
age. For another, that may be the largest number of the children in
custody."
"May" be probably isn't. I suppose there COULD have been an enormously skewed age distribution, in the same sense that there COULD have been some space aliens amongst their ranks. But no evidence of that has been presented. So there is no reason to doubt the ~10% figure without wishful thinking on behalf of the pro-CPS folks. If people want to try that hard to vindicate CPS, why don't they quit the media and just make up their own accusations?
"May" be probably isn't. I suppose there COULD have been an enormously skewed age distribution, in the same sense that there COULD have been some space aliens amongst their ranks. But no evidence of that has been presented. So there is no reason to doubt the ~10% figure without wishful thinking on behalf of the pro-CPS folks. If people want to try that hard to vindicate CPS, why don't they quit the media and just make up their own accusations?
No Cookie Crumble here | 4:45 p.m. April 30, 2008
Yeah, it HAS happened to me: Military housing is a
hornet's nest of busy-body women when their husbands
are on deployment. When I took a neighbor to the hospital and back home, she stole money from me.
Then she called CPS the next day and reported that my husband was sexually abusing my daughter amongst
other lies. CPS came and removed all three children and took them to a safe house and interviewed each separately. The experience almost cost my husband
his military career. The children gave CPS an earful of truth and in three days, the children
returned home for the wiser. The neighbor and her
family were eventually asked to vacate housing.
Still, with all the stress, I'm glad CPS responded
quickly. It's better to investigate than NOTHING,
or for allegations to be unfounded.
In 20 minutes, I'll see the news about the children removed from the cult near Albuquerque.
hornet's nest of busy-body women when their husbands
are on deployment. When I took a neighbor to the hospital and back home, she stole money from me.
Then she called CPS the next day and reported that my husband was sexually abusing my daughter amongst
other lies. CPS came and removed all three children and took them to a safe house and interviewed each separately. The experience almost cost my husband
his military career. The children gave CPS an earful of truth and in three days, the children
returned home for the wiser. The neighbor and her
family were eventually asked to vacate housing.
Still, with all the stress, I'm glad CPS responded
quickly. It's better to investigate than NOTHING,
or for allegations to be unfounded.
In 20 minutes, I'll see the news about the children removed from the cult near Albuquerque.
Anonymous | 4:46 p.m. April 30, 2008
After working in CPS for over 14 years in another country, medical professionals
can tell the difference between accidental and non-accidental injuries. Getting
broken bones through falling off a swing set or playing sport is considered to
be accidnetal injuries. Broken bones resulting in a deliberate injury is child
abuse. I feel sorrow for the kids who are torn between the truth and being
coached by parents who can not put the best interest of their children first.
This church is a church of deception. They lied to the TX government re
building a ranch for hunting purposes. They encourage children to lie to
authorities. As they say in the X files......The truth is out there!!!
Re: Correct % of children | 4:47 p.m. April 30, 2008
I was sexually abused by my friend's cousin (older, but also a minor). My
wife was sexually abused by a family friend. Should we have been taken away
from our parents?
The presence of abuse does not imply anything in aggregrate. It can only be assessed on an individual basis, case by case. That is what the next round of hearings are for. Even if you have the need to judge others, it might be prudent to withhold judgement until you know who to judge.
The presence of abuse does not imply anything in aggregrate. It can only be assessed on an individual basis, case by case. That is what the next round of hearings are for. Even if you have the need to judge others, it might be prudent to withhold judgement until you know who to judge.
For Wondering | 4:49 p.m. April 30, 2008
Yes, polygamy is illegal in Texas, Utah and anywhere else in the United States.
The law does not require a legal wedding; a private ordinance performed by a
church leader or even a private person is considered an illegal marriage if one
or both spouses is already married. The laws in Texas and Utah were written
specifically to ban polygamy. Note that the Edmunds Act of 1882 made polygamy
illegal in the entire United States. After the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the law
constitional in May 1890, the LDS church abandoned plural marriage in October
1890. Later it specifically banned plural marriage even in other countries.
Some members continued to take plural wives until about 1916 when another
manifesto expressly forbade plural marriage. An apostle was excommunicated, and
some other high-level discipline took place before the church finally rid itself
of polygamy. Other sects have justified polygamy by claiming either that they
have had their own word from God to continue the practice or have rejected the
LDS leaders' efforts to stop plural marriage as nothing more than public
pronouncements meant to get the government off the church's back, something
along the lines of Obama's renouncement of his reverend.
For Wondering Again | 4:51 p.m. April 30, 2008
Sorry for the typo, the second manifesto was in 1906, not 1916.
John Lambert | 4:50 p.m. April 30, 2008
First off, is it just me or do they alter these articles after people put
posts on them and yet still leave the posts connected with the altered article?
The whole thing gets very confusing.
I have read through the Houston Chronicle posts on this issue, and would have to say there is more hate there than here.
One thing, I think Mr. Cokkerell's testimony is inconsistent. On one hand he says that the state obtained the information from parents and children, on the other he lashes out at the parents for trying to disrupt his investigation.
What does he expect to happen when you stormed into someone's home with armored viecles and have lied to them multiple times.
Depending where exactly they put the "wrist" bands, the "tampering" may have just been attempts to remove them because they were forcing exposure of skin. You and I and Mr. Cokkerell may see nothing wrong with exposing the arm between the elbow and the wrist but the FLDS do and I think this is a much more plausible explanation of what was going on than deliberate attempts to sabotage.
I have read through the Houston Chronicle posts on this issue, and would have to say there is more hate there than here.
One thing, I think Mr. Cokkerell's testimony is inconsistent. On one hand he says that the state obtained the information from parents and children, on the other he lashes out at the parents for trying to disrupt his investigation.
What does he expect to happen when you stormed into someone's home with armored viecles and have lied to them multiple times.
Depending where exactly they put the "wrist" bands, the "tampering" may have just been attempts to remove them because they were forcing exposure of skin. You and I and Mr. Cokkerell may see nothing wrong with exposing the arm between the elbow and the wrist but the FLDS do and I think this is a much more plausible explanation of what was going on than deliberate attempts to sabotage.
John Lambert, SH Michigan | 5:02 p.m. April 30, 2008
To Jules,
No one is being accused of any crime. No criminal charges have been filed. No one is being held in criminal custody. No where has anyone been formally charged with statutory rape, polygamy or any other crime.
The children have been removed from their parents and taken into state custody. This is totally different than a criminal case.
The CPS head even said in this hearing, at least if the Deseret News reported his statements correctly, that he hopes to reunite many of the children with their parents.
One other thing. Yes, it appears there was only one doctor at the ranch, but he also said that some of thetreatments were done with an orthopedic surgeon in San Angelo.
Another thing some posters are probably ignorant of. The FLDS generally use midwives and herbal medicine so their ways do not require as many doctors as other peoples.
Personally I think the mainstream medical profession is good, but I do not believe people should be forced to participate in it if they want to follow another way. Freedom outweights public health, and here there is no clear public health issue.
No one is being accused of any crime. No criminal charges have been filed. No one is being held in criminal custody. No where has anyone been formally charged with statutory rape, polygamy or any other crime.
The children have been removed from their parents and taken into state custody. This is totally different than a criminal case.
The CPS head even said in this hearing, at least if the Deseret News reported his statements correctly, that he hopes to reunite many of the children with their parents.
One other thing. Yes, it appears there was only one doctor at the ranch, but he also said that some of thetreatments were done with an orthopedic surgeon in San Angelo.
Another thing some posters are probably ignorant of. The FLDS generally use midwives and herbal medicine so their ways do not require as many doctors as other peoples.
Personally I think the mainstream medical profession is good, but I do not believe people should be forced to participate in it if they want to follow another way. Freedom outweights public health, and here there is no clear public health issue.
Why this is happening | 5:02 p.m. April 30, 2008
Can you not see that this has nothing to do with the FLDS, nothing to do with
child abuse, nothing to do with religious persecution? Very simply put, a
minority group was picked to make a example of and a example of,
it�s only them because it was convenient.
It�s the only way to attack you and me and strip us of our
freedom, if were so bizzy being mad at these people we
won�t notice them burning the Constitution. As Hitler said,
�if the Jews wouldn�t have been there,
we would have created them.� All Americans must stand up
against this. If they want to kill of this minority group, they need to do it
without taking my rights away, your rights away. (Getting these guys is not
worth giving up the Constitution and Due Process)That is all.
Micah | 5:04 p.m. April 30, 2008
And of course there are certain religious ethnic political groups who just
can't stand to see all of those well trained white children and white
parents who haven't been brained washed into the multi-culture,
diversified, homosexual, same sex marriage, Christ hating, TV brain washed
programming, foul mouth entertainers, dumbed down education system society
currently now called civilized. Indeed as foretold 'they will call evil
good and good evil.
Wonder what the religious beliefs are of the judge and other state officials of Texas who are ready to cast stones for the sake of mammon?
Wonder what the religious beliefs are of the judge and other state officials of Texas who are ready to cast stones for the sake of mammon?
Micah | 5:10 p.m. April 30, 2008
How many wives did Jacob, King David, Solomon, and many other patriarchs
have??
Marilyn | 5:14 p.m. April 30, 2008
Wouldn't it be better for everyone concerned to with
hold judgment until the facts are known,and let those whose responsibility it is to learn the facts do their jobs?
The Fundamentalists have obviously chosen not to obey the laws of the land in which they live, and have obtained money from the government illegally to finance their illegal life-style. As always, when parents lack integrity or fail to take responsibility for their actions the children become innocent victims.
In this case, it is possible that innocent victims have grown up to become perpetrators. It is a tragedy for the victims and for our nation.
hold judgment until the facts are known,and let those whose responsibility it is to learn the facts do their jobs?
The Fundamentalists have obviously chosen not to obey the laws of the land in which they live, and have obtained money from the government illegally to finance their illegal life-style. As always, when parents lack integrity or fail to take responsibility for their actions the children become innocent victims.
In this case, it is possible that innocent victims have grown up to become perpetrators. It is a tragedy for the victims and for our nation.
Cookie | 5:19 p.m. April 30, 2008
Yeah, it HAS happened to me. Military housing can
be a hornet's nest. Somebody has to investigate
to get to the truth. My kids told the truth, and
came back home in three days.
In Northeastern New Mexico, underage children were
removed from a religious cult April 22. Michael Travesser will be covered on National Geographic Channel May 7. See KOATTV.COM
Get your blinders off, folks. People like this
are willing to TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT
but they don't want LAWS. Their 'laws' are
from 'God'?
be a hornet's nest. Somebody has to investigate
to get to the truth. My kids told the truth, and
came back home in three days.
In Northeastern New Mexico, underage children were
removed from a religious cult April 22. Michael Travesser will be covered on National Geographic Channel May 7. See KOATTV.COM
Get your blinders off, folks. People like this
are willing to TAKE MONEY FROM THE GOVERNMENT
but they don't want LAWS. Their 'laws' are
from 'God'?
John Lambert | 5:21 p.m. April 30, 2008
To 4:46 post:
I do not know where you are getting this notion that it is possible to distinguish between accidental and non-accidental injuries.
I have heard way too much about accused abusers who truned out to have just had a child who fell and borke a bone to believe accidental and non-accidenta injuries are that distinguishable.
However more inportantly, in the article itslef there is a statement that the CPS people do not know what caused the injuries. So, like so much else this is a big unknown. Even the CPS administator did not say that there is any eveidence that any specific injury was the result of abuse.
I do not know where you are getting this notion that it is possible to distinguish between accidental and non-accidental injuries.
I have heard way too much about accused abusers who truned out to have just had a child who fell and borke a bone to believe accidental and non-accidenta injuries are that distinguishable.
However more inportantly, in the article itslef there is a statement that the CPS people do not know what caused the injuries. So, like so much else this is a big unknown. Even the CPS administator did not say that there is any eveidence that any specific injury was the result of abuse.
Rod is right | 5:24 p.m. April 30, 2008
The FLDS do indeed have issues with brittle bone disease/Classical osteogenesis
imperfecta and you only need to do a quick search to verify for yourself. It is
auto-dominate and just another legacy to their inbreeding practices.
You like or not | 5:24 p.m. April 30, 2008
These FLDS mothers are legal citizens od USA.
They are intittle to governments benefits like any other citizen of USA.
The USA Welfare system is for all USA citizens.
My tax dollars are better expended on them and their children than in the Bush family's war in Irak.
They are intittle to governments benefits like any other citizen of USA.
The USA Welfare system is for all USA citizens.
My tax dollars are better expended on them and their children than in the Bush family's war in Irak.
John Lambert | 5:29 p.m. April 30, 2008
To the commenter at 4:49:
The Edmunds Act only applies to the territories. The Congress would not have dared pass such a law, which governs things not at all allotted to it in anyway in the constitution, in the 19th century. The victory of the commerce clause to justify regulating everything everywhere was a latter development.
I also think people are confusing polygamy and bigamy. The latter is normally understood to involve the previously married person concealing the fact that they were previously married. That is the key element, which means that the fooled spouse has a desire to press charges. In polygamy the participants all know what they are doing.
It is true that polygamy is illegal, however it is not clear that laws against it could pass current constitutional trials, and so the Utah attorney general has decided to prosecute more obvious crimes such as statutory rape and being an acceosry to statutory rape.
The Edmunds Act only applies to the territories. The Congress would not have dared pass such a law, which governs things not at all allotted to it in anyway in the constitution, in the 19th century. The victory of the commerce clause to justify regulating everything everywhere was a latter development.
I also think people are confusing polygamy and bigamy. The latter is normally understood to involve the previously married person concealing the fact that they were previously married. That is the key element, which means that the fooled spouse has a desire to press charges. In polygamy the participants all know what they are doing.
It is true that polygamy is illegal, however it is not clear that laws against it could pass current constitutional trials, and so the Utah attorney general has decided to prosecute more obvious crimes such as statutory rape and being an acceosry to statutory rape.
G | 5:35 p.m. April 30, 2008
Marilyn:
"
Wouldn't it be better for everyone concerned to with
hold judgment until the facts are known,and let those whose responsibility it is to learn the facts do their jobs? "
Yes. I would recommend that policy to Texas CPS any day of the week. Instead, they release daily over-the-top prejudicial statements. This one is particularly interesting.
John Lambert | 5:37 p.m. April 30, 2008
Another response to wondering:
The second manifesto was in 1906, not 1916. Two apostles were removed from the quorum at that point for supporting the continuation of plural marriage. One was later excommunicated.
The law upheld in 1890 was actually the Idaho test oath that made it so that any member of the church could not vote by virtue of being a member of the church because of what the church taught. Although such a law might be upheld by post-Smith (1990 case that lower the threashhold for government regulation of religios activity) era, it should send chils down the spine of any true lover of freedom.
The second manifesto was in 1906, not 1916. Two apostles were removed from the quorum at that point for supporting the continuation of plural marriage. One was later excommunicated.
The law upheld in 1890 was actually the Idaho test oath that made it so that any member of the church could not vote by virtue of being a member of the church because of what the church taught. Although such a law might be upheld by post-Smith (1990 case that lower the threashhold for government regulation of religios activity) era, it should send chils down the spine of any true lover of freedom.
OrangemanED | 5:40 p.m. April 30, 2008
Freedom cannot outweigh public health. We dont let Contagious Untreatable TB
patients to fly around the world freely. And yes there is a public health issue.
Are the reports of fumarose deficency accurate? What are the people of those
compounds doing to prevent that? And how much public money is being used to care
for those children? That is a PUBLIC HEALTH ISSUE is it not?
Going on a rant here.......
I cant stand to hear the persecution defense. at least the catholic church paid for the defense of the priests, that they were not covering for. The FLDS is letting public assistance groups help their faithfull.Nice show of faith. It took the life of Congessman Ryan to expose the dangers of jim jones. Maybe some outreach programs like the amish and Witneses have would quell the suspicion. Why are they not sharing their religion withtheworld? And as I run out of room to type, The Canadian group has been accused of changing the curriculm and introducing racist overtones in schools paid with public funds. SO Its obvious there is plenty of reasons that Texas should investigate this group. Give them time, because I bet there is more to come!
Going on a rant here.......
I cant stand to hear the persecution defense. at least the catholic church paid for the defense of the priests, that they were not covering for. The FLDS is letting public assistance groups help their faithfull.Nice show of faith. It took the life of Congessman Ryan to expose the dangers of jim jones. Maybe some outreach programs like the amish and Witneses have would quell the suspicion. Why are they not sharing their religion withtheworld? And as I run out of room to type, The Canadian group has been accused of changing the curriculm and introducing racist overtones in schools paid with public funds. SO Its obvious there is plenty of reasons that Texas should investigate this group. Give them time, because I bet there is more to come!
To John Lambert | 5:55 p.m. April 30, 2008
It can be very simple to know whether or not an injury is accidental or abusive.
One case I know, a mother brought her son into the E.R. because the child
"feel on a nail." The Dr. immediately called CPS because it was clear
to him that it was a case of abuse. Why? Because he used a screwdriver to
remove the screw, not nail, from the child's head. After ALL the children
were removed and safe, some of the kids talked. Turns out that a brother was
abusing the child. The type of break and the reason given for the break also
explains much. Forensic scientists use that same knowledge in their practice as
well. Not all breaks are created equal. Some are accidental, others based on
the supposed explanation just don't make sense. Breaks are not a new
phenomenon in human history, so patterns emerged a long time ago and remain
consistent. My daughter recently broke her finger (back handspring gone bad)
every doctor that saw us asked how she broke it and nodded with affirmation when
she explained to them what she did. Her injury was consistent with the action
that caused the injury.
Anonymous | 5:55 p.m. April 30, 2008
"I was sexually abused by my friend's cousin (older, but also a
minor). My wife was sexually abused by a family friend. Should we have been
taken away from our parents?"
If your parents knew about it, allowed it, even condoned it or ordered it to happen, yes, yes you should've been taken away from your parents.
If your parents knew about it, allowed it, even condoned it or ordered it to happen, yes, yes you should've been taken away from your parents.
ONE MAN'S OPINION | 5:56 p.m. April 30, 2008
It never ceases to amaze me how crazy you people are. Most of you seem SO
opinionated about right and wrong, who is to blame, etc. and I would venture to
guess that NONE of you have ever been to the FLDS compound, were nowhere near
areas these people were taken or are staying, and the only "Facts" you
know about are the ones you've read about or seen on tv.
While it is nice to be a bleeding heart for these kinds of causes, it really is better to wait until ALL the facts are in before spouting off. At this point, it seems to me to be a no win situation for everybody concerned and I feel so sorry for the children. However, I would't have the audacity to even try and make a judgment call at this point without being there and having ALL the facts in this case. One thing I do know...I hope that if I ever do something wrong enough that I need a trial jury, none of you are on it! I prefer to have people who get the FACTS and not just opinions and tv spin.
While it is nice to be a bleeding heart for these kinds of causes, it really is better to wait until ALL the facts are in before spouting off. At this point, it seems to me to be a no win situation for everybody concerned and I feel so sorry for the children. However, I would't have the audacity to even try and make a judgment call at this point without being there and having ALL the facts in this case. One thing I do know...I hope that if I ever do something wrong enough that I need a trial jury, none of you are on it! I prefer to have people who get the FACTS and not just opinions and tv spin.
John Lambert | 6:26 p.m. April 30, 2008
Actually the second manifesto was issue October 1904, not in 1906.
more than 10% of my kids. | 6:52 p.m. April 30, 2008
More than 10% of my kids have experienced broken bones. Some were very young
when they jumped the wrong way on a tramp hey should not have been on, or fell
from a tree they should not have been climbing. I also know that brittle bone
syndrome runs in families. since the gene pool of the FLDS is pretty shallow, I
would not jump to the conculsions that there was abuse going on just yet. Also,
to be complaining that the kids are saying the same story as the parents might
actually mean that the story is just what it is, and not always what DCFS wants
it to be.
Earl | 6:53 p.m. April 30, 2008
Broken Bones?? That's a medical record or information.
It's a felony to release medical records without written and notarized release forms on file from the patient or guardian.
Try to get your OWN records without the proper paperwork.
For CPS to publish these supposed records broke several state and federal laws.
HIPAA Administrative Simplification Regulation Text, 45 CFR Parts 160, 162, and 164
It's a felony to release medical records without written and notarized release forms on file from the patient or guardian.
Try to get your OWN records without the proper paperwork.
For CPS to publish these supposed records broke several state and federal laws.
HIPAA Administrative Simplification Regulation Text, 45 CFR Parts 160, 162, and 164
from Idaho | 6:53 p.m. April 30, 2008
I made a comment a few days ago but was censored. I did not say anything
inappropriate other then I find it interesting to see how judgmental you Utah
Mormons are. I have 9 children. Three never saw a doctor except for sports
physicals, and two only because of accidental injury. By the way, my children
were home schooled and born at home. All are now married with college degrees
and respectable jobs. They are wonderful parents and contribute to the
communities they live in. It is evident that many of you are closed minded to
different ways others see fit to raise their children. I believe we all brain
wash (indoctrinate) our children with our personal beliefs. Who decides
who's beliefs are correct, our government? I don't agree with
polygamy or any type of abuse. What about government abuse? Many people I know
feel that the Mormon men abuse their wives into submission. I don't feel
we are getting the truth in the media. These people have their rights. Maybe we
should show more compassion until we know all the facts. How can you trust what
you are hearing. Has the media ever lied about the Mormons?
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