Reader comments
Reid, Shurtleff 'kiss and make up'

Anonymous | 11:08 a.m. April 30, 2008

Senate "minority" leader???????

Polygamy and homosexuality | 11:24 a.m. April 30, 2008

I hope they focus their efforts on issues like statutory rape, welfare fraud, and the like rather than going after consenting adults for an unusual living/sexual arrangement.

In a nation that now generally celebrates homosexual conduct, that considers "swinging" and other sexual activity among consenting adults to be private matters beyond state concern, that is told adulterous conduct on the part of leading politicians are private matters, and that is expected to be tolerant of a host of conduct of which the majority likely personally disapprove, I see no reason why plural (spiritual/religious) "marriage" among consenting adults should even be criminal, much less actively prosecuted.

In fact, making the adult relationships themselves the subject of law enforcement will likely only lead to more seclusion and more difficulty in investigating and prosecuting the real crimes involving abuse of children, welfare fraud, tax evasion, and the like.

Give the polygamists the same respect and privacy given to homosexuals and others with alternate lifestyles and focus on the real crimes.

Jill | 11:24 a.m. April 30, 2008

Yeah! Get the Feds involved! The sooner someone fixes this problem, the better. The FLDS "homes" are essentially slave compounds and it is disgusting what these people are doing in the name of God.

Comments continue below

justjoe | 11:27 a.m. April 30, 2008

Ben probably just assumed that everything everywhere is as it is in Utah.

John B | 11:29 a.m. April 30, 2008

Do you think Shurtleff has been reading the comments in DN web site that have overwhelmingly sided with Reid on this issue?

Mark | 11:33 a.m. April 30, 2008

Was that bury the hatchet 'with' Sen. Reid, or bury the hatchet 'in' Sen. Reid?

Utah Valley Resident | 11:33 a.m. April 30, 2008

To: Annoymous
People like you annoy me. Harry Reid is not a leader. Senate "Majority" leader is something he has parlayed into a bully pulpit for convoluted liberal, unamerican rhetoric he and Pelosi have been spouting. He is a sour minded individual who has no productive ideas to move this country forward. The article had it inadvertantly right calling him "Minority" leader. Reid's agenda is simply wrong for America. He ought to be doing something to solve resource and other issues that have resulted in high commodity increases. Making corn into fuel is just baloney. Reid's state of Nevada has a lot more problems to address than Utah has. Reid is not doing his job in the Senate. He shouldn't even be a "minority" leader. He is not even close to being a leader.....he is simply a dour critic. He needs to rise about his long standing behavior and show some statesmanship. Nevada should be ashamed of his behavior as a major leader in this great country. Shame on you Senator Reid!

To Sen. Reid | 11:44 a.m. April 30, 2008

The state of Texas should also intervene for ALL chldren in Texas who are sexually or emotionally abused and have under-age mothers. If they applied these criteria for all children their resources would be overwhelmed. Is it worse to father multiple chldren out of wedlock and abandon them or admit that they are your chldren and then suport them?

kevin | 11:49 a.m. April 30, 2008

I hope Reid and Shurtleff will work together and go after all the polygamist deviates.

Anthony | 11:54 a.m. April 30, 2008

Why in the world would we want our federal government getting involved in this issue? One of our main problems is that we continue to think that the answer to all our problems is to get the Feds involved. Seems to me that our federal gov't should be handling the things they are constitutionally bound to do, not worry about polygamists or baseball players or the like.

One upset citizen ! ! ! | 11:59 a.m. April 30, 2008

RE: "The state of Texas should also intervene for ALL chldren in Texas who are sexually or emotionally abused and have under-age mothers. If they applied these criteria for all children their resources would be overwhelmed."

Both the state of Texas and Utah have millions of dollars in funds which could be diverted to fight the scourge of pedophilia. Neither states resources would be overwhelmed !!!

Utah organizations should be chastized for allowing this situation to become "out of hand" over the last 100 years!

Kim | 12:03 p.m. April 30, 2008

So why does it take Reid to get something started? Where are the Utah and Arizona delegations...... Why hasn't Hatch been involved. I don't care if it's Reid, Pelosi, or any Senator from back east! Having 14, 15, and 16 year old girls marry and have children is just simply wrong! They haven't even had a chance to be kids, much less create them!

he's kidding? | 12:23 p.m. April 30, 2008

quoting Shurtleff "They wouldn't be in Texas if we didn't kick them out of Utah." He's kidding when he says that right? Does he really feel like he is somehow to be congratulated after decades of Utah doing nothing on this issue? Does he think that booting people out of the state who commit crimes is an acceptable alternative to prosecuting crimes? Let's face it, Shurtleff has done next to nothing with the FLDS compared to his counterparts in Texas. They went in and within a matter of weeks did what Utah couldn't do for decades. Shurtleff is an embarrasment to the state of Utah. He's an embarrassment to himself.

russ | 12:25 p.m. April 30, 2008

I don't understand the vitrolic statements concerning Senator Reid. He is one of the most powerful men in America, a Mormon no less, and his counsel is sought by many people.

Does jealousy raise its head here?

I think so.

Shophait: God of Justice | 12:29 p.m. April 30, 2008

Perhaps God allowed these folks to come to Texas knowing that in Texas someone or many would eventually stand up and stop it.
Simply kicking them out of the state just moves the problems and the girls being abused elsewhere, doesn't address the problem. Hopefully this will do it. Keep a watchful eye so it doesn't morph into something else.

James I | 12:55 p.m. April 30, 2008

Re: Russ,
You need to realize that the FLDS men do not like Mr. Reid, because he stands against them. The FLDS also do a lot of posting on these blogs to support their evil abuse.

RE: Russ | 1:02 p.m. April 30, 2008

Are you kidding? I thought we weren't supposed to agree with someone just because they are the same religion as us...

I disagree with Sen Reid because he is sticking his nose where it doesn't belong, plain and simple. With regards to him being one of the most powerful men in America...that tells you the state of decline we are in. I can't think of many of our senators or representatives that I can honestly say have the moral leadership that I expect from someone representing me. It is too bad. The only ones we have in power today are the ones that crave that power. A normal, moral person can't stand being around the corruption of Washington for long without either getting disgusted and leaving or becoming corrupt themselves.

Dan | 1:11 p.m. April 30, 2008

Imagine it's 1851 and President Young's assistant greets Brother Brigham breathlessly: "President Young... Good news! The Feds are coming to help us take care of the polygomy issue here in Deseret." My, how things have changed in 150 years.

gal50 | 1:20 p.m. April 30, 2008

Before you do anything, please make sure the FLDS has no money to build out of state compounds. In Arizona and Utah, you have an open community that can be entered. In South Dakota and Texas, they've built guarded compounds. Those are a lot harder to penetrate. It appears that South Dakota may be stuck with the FLDS forever.

While distributing members among the states is a great strategy for survival, it is also going to keep the FLDS in the press as each state tries to cope with the spread of this disaster.

Getting the FLDS to jump states isn't something to brag about. It only made the problem that much more difficult to resolve.

It doesn't seem like anything in Utah or Arizona has changed and that is what people are complaining about. Jeffs essentially got 10 to life and that usually means 10 plus time off for all kinds of things. At least he has a conviction.

Over the past few years, the FLDS has been tightening the screws on its members and forcing them to become more insulated from the outside world. It has become worse, not better.

chemist | 1:21 p.m. April 30, 2008

Wow!I thought Indiana was a conservative state, Utah must be way out there based on the vitrolic comments about Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid. Whether you agree with his politics or not he is trying to get investigations into the polygymous groups in the West. I fully support his efforts in that.

in breaking news | 1:45 p.m. April 30, 2008

how long will it be before Reid demands all the abusive smokers lose their kids? Or all the evil child mutilators that have forskin removed from their infants?

With the march of the federal government, conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones are going to get proved right. Of course, it will be too late then, and we'll all be branded property of the state.

hmmmmm | 1:58 p.m. April 30, 2008

All Texas law maker need to figure this out
and figure out the welfare my guess is many of these woman are still drawing on Utah and or Arizona
welfare and living in Texas which is against the law
come on law makers get on this

Reid Backed Down for a Reason | 2:05 p.m. April 30, 2008

He backed down because Shurtleff started bringing up the FLDS and polygamist connections to Nevada. He knows if people start pulling up rocks in his "lovely" state (a true beacon of morality and wise governing - by the way) Who knows what they would uncover...

get his own state mad at him and then he may lose his "base"

Be sure to worry about the problems in Utah and AZ, not the LV hookers, bunny ranches, homeless, gambling adicts, etc. in your home state

tired | 2:06 p.m. April 30, 2008

Reading all of the post's of the sadly deluded FLDS members/sympathizers is seriously tiring. The tactic of attempting to divert attention by pointing out other social ills does nothing to change the facts. Polygamy is against the law. Inbreeding and incest are pathetic. Thank God they got "revelation" to move to Texas :-)

WATCH OUT polygamist | 2:14 p.m. April 30, 2008

It's good to see these two titans agree to work together.

But where is Curly?

Anonymous | 2:18 p.m. April 30, 2008

Shurtleff, with his tail between his legs, realizes that Reid isn't a child or an idiot who needs to be patronized, so he "agrees to work with Reid."

What a twit. Reid didn't back down; Shurtleff did! He is in way over his head and dealing with bigger dogs than he is accustomed to. He finally realized that and decided to "bury the hatchet" - that's because his hatchet was being used against BIG GUNS!

John Reynolds | 2:19 p.m. April 30, 2008

Kiss and make up is a very poor choice of words.
They're both liberal republicans, so maybe they will.

Andrew | 2:19 p.m. April 30, 2008

Why should the Federal government be involved? Have polygamists in Utah broken Federal laws? If yes, then it's something to consider. If no, they have NO business being here.

Veronica from Orem | 2:25 p.m. April 30, 2008

Shurtleff is just along for the ride and the publicity on this outing. He'll do everything in his power to hinder investigations and prosecutions against the polygamists. For his own mormon reasons, he wants polygamy and all its abuses to survive. Reid is hardly a dynamo, but he will probably assert himself into a solution for the polygamy nightmare that the mormon politicians of Utah willingly tolerate.

A True Principle | 2:54 p.m. April 30, 2008

Re: tired

I think you'll find that those that sound sympathetic to the FLDS's understand there is something minutely fundementally sound in their practice. Yes, that life style is NOW considered diviant by the church now that we're more enlightened, understand and nurture our relationships with our spouses and children with love and respect.

Not too many have the guts to say it, but if you're knowledgable in church doctrine, you know that polygamy is a requirement to enter the top third level of the Celestial Kingdom. Although not discussed as much now, this princple was taught extensively by the first five presidents of the church and I mean extensively. Most (hopefully) on this site know that forcing these young girls to marry and then sexually assault them is reprehensible, but any member of the church that has any regard for what JS, BY and others devoted their lives to these teachings and have some respect for a basic principle mingled in what is otherwise a tainted religion.

Animal Kingdom | 3:09 p.m. April 30, 2008

Polygamy is a sin.

May Shurtleff and his buddy Harry Reid do us all a great favor and find all these child abusers and lock them up for good. It's the only way.

Hoosier, Re: Andrew | 3:22 p.m. April 30, 2008

They won't know if federal laws were broken until they get a multistate/federal task force together and investigate. I can think of some that they might look at. The Mann act, IRS fraud, Welfare fraud, aiding and abetting at large felons (Warren Jeffs),
why our tax money goes to flds owned companies like Western Precision, now New Era, child labor laws, EOC regulations, etc. Frankly I welcome a federal investigation and would like to see all of the flds leaders sharing prison time with Warren.

Rich | 4:14 p.m. April 30, 2008

Nothing is going to happen to prevent these polygamists from breeding like bunnies as illegal as it is. The federal government outlawed polygamy in 1882 and it wasn't until after the U.S. Supreme Court ruled the law constitutional that the LDS church abandoned the principle and began excommunicating polygamists. It took another 15 years or so before the church was able to stamp in out entirely, and then some of these other sects started up, claiming they had the priesthood authority to continue. Well, it's still illegal, and the feds ought to enforce the law or change it. Same with immigration laws. Either enforce them or get rid of them. This would allow people to come out from the underground, where both polygamists and illegal immigrants live in constant fear of selective enforcement. Another solution, Sen. Reid. Since your state has already legalized prostitution, why don't you legalize polygamy, too. Then all the polygamists can move to Nevada and do something about populating all those vast desert landscapes. Nevada says it can regulate prostitution by legalizing it, taxing it, requiring health checks, condoms, etc. You also could regulate polygamy, requiring me to show adeqate means of support, age documentation, etc.

RE: A True Principle | 4:25 p.m. April 30, 2008

RE: A True Principle. You state "but if you're knowledgable in church doctrine, you know that polygamy is a requirement to enter the top third level of the Celestial Kingdom." You seem very sure of this. Would you be so good as to give the reference of this "requirement". I have been in the Church 50 years and have never heard or read such a thing. True, some speak or feel as you do, but no one can show where (in scripture or teachings of modern prophets) it is stated as being "a requirement to enter the top level of the Celestial Kingdom." Thank you.

FBI | 4:41 p.m. April 30, 2008

Funny that the all-powerful FBI which found Warren Jeffs when Shurtleff couldn't seems to have quietly exited stage right in the face of federal welfare and social security fraud. They go after tax evaders, but not if their PR gurus tell them that investigating a corrupt "church" would be too much like their former debacles in Waco, Texas. The FLDS are just like the Branch Davidians. Doesn't anyone remember what happened when the government loosed the FBI on them? Death and eradication.

Anonymous | 4:54 p.m. April 30, 2008

How come polygamist men think woman have NO SAY when it comes to living some kind of immoral polygamy life style? What's with these FLDS, dudes? Perversion is perversion.
Shurtliff and Reid better go after these varmints. They need to protect the women and children from further abuses.

I don't believe that their ever was a revelation from God to make woman suffer in this way. Never never happened!

Go Rich Go | 4:55 p.m. April 30, 2008

I agree with Rich. Let Nevada legalize and tax polygamy and keep all polygamists there. They legalized and regulated gambling and prostitution. Now maybe they can also legalize, tax and regulate polygamy, drugs, pornography etc. and every other kind of deviant behavior. They can all live regulated and happy together in the desert.

True Principle response | 4:58 p.m. April 30, 2008

In response to a source: Look at BY Journal of Discourses Vol 11, p. 269. This really was a common teaching and you'll find it many more places (I could have given you many back in my research days) You won't find it in the main-stream church sources... anymore, but you'll find them in Signature Books and Sunstone material.

G | 5:07 p.m. April 30, 2008

"How come polygamist men think woman have NO SAY when it comes to living some kind of immoral polygamy life style?"

How do you know the women don't have a say? That seems to me like something of a sexist assumption that women need to be told how not to live. Is it really inconceivable to you that some adult women might approve of such a system? And not want the government's "help"? The sexual revolution has brought out a lot of lifestyles I personally don't understand, but that doesn't mean people need nannies from Washington to stop them.

Polygamy (among consenting adults) is both a religious freedom and personal privacy issue, and as such will inevitably become legal in the United States whenever the appropriate case reaches SCOTUS.

so if.... | 5:14 p.m. April 30, 2008

a true principle huh. if its so important, as to be the 'requirement' to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom, why is it off in some sunstone material and not taught in main stream church sources, such as the reports of general conference or the messages of the first presidency in the ensign???

Wierd Society | 5:16 p.m. April 30, 2008

What a wierd society I live in. I can cheat on my wife, have intimate relations before marriage, and even be a parent to children outside of marriage. Wierd Wierd Wierd. And it's all accepted. But try and have two wives and you're satan himself. Polygamists ran from the US once and they came to SLC. Sounds like they need to move on again.

Response to G | 5:23 p.m. April 30, 2008

I don't think anyone cares what consenting adults do as long as it doesn't hurt others, especially kids. If this were a bunch of 30+ year olds, this would just be a novelty shown on TV you get updated on once a year.

Re: Response to G | 5:28 p.m. April 30, 2008

"I don't think anyone cares what consenting adults do as long as it doesn't hurt others, especially kids. If this were a bunch of 30+ year olds, this would just be a novelty shown on TV you get updated on once a year."

I pretty much agree with you there. I meant that as a general response to the tremendous number of posts which seem to be expressing hatred towards polygamists in general. Even the D-News had some trouble with the distinction the other day, they quoted several Texas laws regarding child marriage in an article with "polygamy" in the title. None of the laws referred to any "plural marriage" arrangement.

I'll be surprised if the post you're responding to doesn't stir up colorful commentary, even though I went out of the way to stress that I was talking about polygamy between adults.

G

if so... response | 5:34 p.m. April 30, 2008

It used to be taught in the main stream. In that source, BY was talking to an open congregation. Do I really need to explain to you why you won't see it main-stream publications or do I need to talk it out with you like I do with my 13 year old deacon?

Re: | 5:43 p.m. April 30, 2008

I agree with the poster at 5:23. This isn't about consenting adults having some weird relationship I find repugnant. It's about forcing minors into those relationships. If all these marriages were entered into as adults, nothing would happen. The FLDS group isn't the only polgy group out there, but they are the one being investigated and prosecuted. Why? Because they sexually abuse minors and force them into underage marriages. It's just that simple. If they want to stop being "persecuted" they will stop these child-bride marriages.

re: He's kidding? | 7:35 p.m. April 30, 2008

I agree totally with these comments. Having lived in Utah all my life it infureates me that this has gone ons so long. People in Texas are asking questions I have asked for years and I still don't have the answers. Like why don't they arrest these men who have more than one wife? How do these women get welfare? If Shurtleff thinks he has done so much then why are the people still living in Hilldale? Hopefully, this will help Shurtleff see that something can be done!

Keith, California | 8:04 p.m. April 30, 2008

Be careful getting the Feds involved. Remember how the women and children were "freed" at Waco. Harry Reid is not trustworthy.

The Principle? Ha Ha! | 8:28 p.m. April 30, 2008

Shurtleff and Reid both need to move on the polygamy search immediately, and the sooner the better. (PLEASE DON'T SET THIS ONE OUT)! National news tonight said that some of the little FLDS boy have been sexually molested. CNN mentioned that the FLDS have told one lie after another and that they cannot believe anything these FLDS people say whatsoever. The polygamy (laughable) so called FLDS PRINCIPLE is way out of control with these people. Totally insane!

Thie whole polygamy perversion truly makes me, my family and all our LDS friends absolutely SICK!

Utah/Texas | 8:55 p.m. April 30, 2008

Utah has done a lot of the issue of polygamy. They just didn't do the "Wham Bamm" approach that Texas did. They went after the leaders because they didn't want to have to deal with the family split ups and etc. That would have been very expensive.

There is a huge difference in the cultures of Texas and Utah and it is played out here. Texas has a history of these kinds of actions and Utah has a very different history. I have lived in both states. I love Utah, but I do think they have been very slow in dealing with the polygamists. Perhaps this cause them to rethink their ways.

re: True Principle Response | 11:41 p.m. April 30, 2008

Interesting that you should quote a talk that actually acknowledged that polygamy might someday be done away with in the church. I think you misunderstood BY's message. Sorry, try again.

Besides, Journal of Discourses does not qualify as "church doctrine." If you're knowledgeable in church doctrine, you should know that. :)

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Reid, Shurtleff 'kiss and make up'