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One phase of FLDS work is complete
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wow | 12:28 p.m. April 29, 2008
i can't believe how after the facts are coming out about this sick
'religious' pedophilia, some people still defend the FLDS!!!!
WT?...hmmm...i guess alot more FLDS have computers and web access than i
thought!
wow | 12:38 p.m. April 29, 2008
one more thing, it makes no diffrents what the state finds, they could convict
and hang every person on the FYZ ranch, and it still will not justify the way
they are stripping you and me of our Rights.
Comments continue below
D Osborne | 12:38 p.m. April 29, 2008
I think that one of the greatest dangers is that if the children are returned to
their mothers, the mothers might well poison the children (and themselves as
well.) They would probably rather see them dead than raised on the
"outside". The mothers seem to be under the mind control of someone or
something. After all, mass suicide/ murder has happened before in other cults in
recent years , under similar circumstances.
RE: It is time | 12:42 p.m. April 29, 2008
To the poster at 6:33am: I wonder how many children you have adopted that were
taken from their parents? I have adopted 4 (2 sibling groups). There are many
other children in Utah right now whose parents have lost custody of them due to
neglect, abuse, etc. If CPS in TX deems that the FLDS children cannot be
returned, they will need to be adopted into loving homes. I ask anyone who is
capable to look at the Utah Adoption Exchange website. If you care about the
FLDS children, why not care about others? It is extremely difficult parenting
these children, they come with many emotional problems and require retraining
from some of the things their parents taught them, but very rewarding.
Ricky | 12:43 p.m. April 29, 2008
This articleis about the cost to Texas the raid has had. Not mentioned is the
cost to Texas of the lawsuits that are coming.
As a note. I was taken from my home as a teenager and subject to some warped minded people. My life has never been the same. I was not taken away for something I had done or something my parents had done. Basically we don't care what the government do to children in their care.
As a note. I was taken from my home as a teenager and subject to some warped minded people. My life has never been the same. I was not taken away for something I had done or something my parents had done. Basically we don't care what the government do to children in their care.
Chemist | 12:50 p.m. April 29, 2008
Being in the midwest I must say I do not personally know anyone who belongs to
the flds. I must base my opinion on what is reported about them. The fact that
several of their male leaders are in prison, registered as sex offenders, etc is
quite compelling. I do find it very interesting that none of the male leaders
have appeared on nationwide news shows to give their side. Some of the flds
women did as well as former members. Are the men afraid they would implicate
themselves or would have to duck some direct questions? Based on the reporting I
have seen to date I find almost nothing admirable about the flds religion or
lifestyle.
Anonymous | 1:13 p.m. April 29, 2008
1. I cannot speak about other FLDS communities but I doubt that the YFZ folks
were using the welfare system before the raid. (now they are using it
involuntariy) If they were, there would be absolutly no excuse for caseworkers
having trouble keeping track of everyone and their names and birthdates. The
welfare system does not just hand out money without bodies and birth
certificates attached.
2. If TX is going to get sued, look for someone connected with non-FLDS CPS families to sue for caseworkers with the same caseload as the FLDS, the same quality of food and other considerations being given to the FLDS. I think the FLDS are a special case on numerous grounds but could someone still sue on some kind of discrimination grounds?
3. Just for an exercise giver everyone the benefit of the doubt about the imbalance of teenage boys. This community was established in TX only a few years ago. I would expect there to be teenage girls streaming there because they think it is an elite route to salvation. That does not answer questions about teenage age boys among the FLDS overall, but...
2. If TX is going to get sued, look for someone connected with non-FLDS CPS families to sue for caseworkers with the same caseload as the FLDS, the same quality of food and other considerations being given to the FLDS. I think the FLDS are a special case on numerous grounds but could someone still sue on some kind of discrimination grounds?
3. Just for an exercise giver everyone the benefit of the doubt about the imbalance of teenage boys. This community was established in TX only a few years ago. I would expect there to be teenage girls streaming there because they think it is an elite route to salvation. That does not answer questions about teenage age boys among the FLDS overall, but...
Anonymous | 1:20 p.m. April 29, 2008
To say that this is about religion is silly. It is about money. Texas, get out
your check book.
wrz | 1:37 p.m. April 29, 2008
>>i can't believe how after the facts are coming out about this sick
'religious' pedophilia, some people still defend the
FLDS!!!!<<
I defend human rights spelled out in the US Constitution... many of which were violated in this instance.
Mayhaps some day they will come for you or your children. Nobody wants that.
I defend human rights spelled out in the US Constitution... many of which were violated in this instance.
Mayhaps some day they will come for you or your children. Nobody wants that.
The Texan | 1:38 p.m. April 29, 2008
Some of the questions on here seem inane. You want the state to return children
to "loving" mothers who stand by and watched them either banished or
raped? Stop and think for pete's sake.
To those of you who pretend that if someone else is doing something wrong then it's OK for you to allow others to do the same are referred to as accomplices and should go to jail with the perps.
To those of you who pretend that if someone else is doing something wrong then it's OK for you to allow others to do the same are referred to as accomplices and should go to jail with the perps.
Re; Chemist | 1:49 p.m. April 29, 2008
One of the basic rules of law and procedure is that when someone is accused
before the law, that person is not allowed by their lawyer to spout on anything,
especially to the media that twists and adapts anything said. This matter is now
before the courts and the FLDS leaders (I presume) are not allowed to say
anything, except through their lawyer/s. That is a normal procedure applied to
anybody. Have you never heard people say: "We cannot comment, the matter is
now berofe the court"?
Two wrongs? | 2:01 p.m. April 29, 2008
Somebody mentioned in one of the comments that two wrongs do not make a right.
You betcha. Polygamy may be wrong or illegal, but the state of Texas commited
far greater wrongs. Forced separation of mothers from even nursing babies, raid
based on lies and deception (the 33 year old pretending to be 16 year old abused
girl), condemnation of the accused before any proof (crossexamined qand
documented) in court, demonizing these people without any objectivity and real
concern for the children, not allowing them to have lawyers present, herding
them like cattle when all this was going on... we can just go on and on. I shall
believe most of the accusations when I see an irrefutable proof. It smells like
a persecution, looks like persecution, behaves like a persecution... what do you
think it probably is?
Over 18 | 2:02 p.m. April 29, 2008
26 of 53 claim to be over 18
Did C.P.S. refuse to look at their drivers lisences like they did the two 22 year olds that they had in custody for two and a half weeks?
Did C.P.S. refuse to look at their drivers lisences like they did the two 22 year olds that they had in custody for two and a half weeks?
Vicky | 2:05 p.m. April 29, 2008
My comments were not abusive, not offensive, not off topic, not
misrepresentative, and less than 200 words.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints must take responsability for its past and present.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints is the most qualify intitution to take care of these unfortunate mothers and their children.
What about love and compassion for the "lost sheeps"
These indoctrinated women are victims of past priciples practiced and teached by LDS Church.
The root of this social, spiritual dilema is in the
LDS Church.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints must take responsability for its past and present.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Days Saints is the most qualify intitution to take care of these unfortunate mothers and their children.
What about love and compassion for the "lost sheeps"
These indoctrinated women are victims of past priciples practiced and teached by LDS Church.
The root of this social, spiritual dilema is in the
LDS Church.
chemist | 2:26 p.m. April 29, 2008
Re Re Chemist.
Thanks for the clarification. I did think it oddd that the women were there, but not the men. I presume the fact that they are not there is not an implication of guilt on their part?
Thanks for the clarification. I did think it oddd that the women were there, but not the men. I presume the fact that they are not there is not an implication of guilt on their part?
Smokescreen | 2:34 p.m. April 29, 2008
The FLDS sympathizers are great at spin, but their lies are quickly catching up
with them. They know that their leaders actively encourage and participate into
forcing young girls into arranged marriages. It's a basic part of their
culture and beliefs, only now that they've been caught with their hand in
the cookie jar, so to speak, they're too ashamed to admit that they've
been abusing their children in exactly the manner for which their kids were
taken away.
lynn | 2:40 p.m. April 29, 2008
It sickens me to think of any female in bed with a man because she feels if she
isn't, her eternal welfare is at stake!
ypman | 3:01 p.m. April 29, 2008
As a Texan I fully support the state in their efforts and do not mind the money
it will cost us to continue the process since people keep mentioning that as an
important issue. A good friend of mine is a regional manager for CPS and I know
that often all the children are removed from a home while an investigation is
being completed. Since these folks live in a compound setting and not homes,
but dormitories it was essential they remove all children. I personally think
when the process is complete some children, but not all will be returned. I
would like to think that would not happen but I believe it will.
Re: Over 18 | 3:02 p.m. April 29, 2008
You seriously think these girls had drivers licenses? Last thing the old men
were going to do is give these girls cars and drivers licenses.
Besides, as everyone know a drivers license is hardly proof. How many 18 year olds are there running around fake IDs. How many illegal immigrants have "official" IDs?
Besides, as everyone know a drivers license is hardly proof. How many 18 year olds are there running around fake IDs. How many illegal immigrants have "official" IDs?
to Scared American | 3:02 p.m. April 29, 2008
Every American SHOULD be scared but they clearly are not and one can only wonder
if they just don't get it! The state has made some destructive charges
against these women, with no proof, then refused to allow them to defend
themselves. WHO calls that a Democracy?
ediddy | 3:06 p.m. April 29, 2008
Wrong, wrong and so completely wrong!
The LDS church may well provide humanitarian service where appropriate, but it is in no way responsible for those who continued to practice a proscribed way of life and certainly not 100 years later. I have no idea how you stretch to reach this conclusion, but if one of your children leaves your family and acts in a way contrary to what is acceptable to your family, are you responsible for that childs continued disobedience. Not!!!! Get a clue or a grip or some common sense and understanding.
The LDS church may well provide humanitarian service where appropriate, but it is in no way responsible for those who continued to practice a proscribed way of life and certainly not 100 years later. I have no idea how you stretch to reach this conclusion, but if one of your children leaves your family and acts in a way contrary to what is acceptable to your family, are you responsible for that childs continued disobedience. Not!!!! Get a clue or a grip or some common sense and understanding.
ediddy | 3:14 p.m. April 29, 2008
to re: over 18 (cont.)
Birth records would be the most effective, but if you can forge a drivers license, can you not also doctor birth and other records?
Birth records would be the most effective, but if you can forge a drivers license, can you not also doctor birth and other records?
Guilty until proven innocent | 3:25 p.m. April 29, 2008
I have yet to see one abuse specifically cited. All is hearsay. We are
separating more than 460 Moms and children based on hearsay and generic comments
such as "we believe there is an abusive belief system" (specific
belief tenets uncited). "31 out of 53 pregnant underage girls" (well,
at least we think they are underage). A phone call from Sarah, who turned out to
be an activist?
YES, this could all be justified.
But we do have laws in this country, are they null and void???
I have yet to hear of any proof. Have you? Are we expected to trust CPS authorities omniscience in the matter?
YES, this could all be justified.
But we do have laws in this country, are they null and void???
I have yet to hear of any proof. Have you? Are we expected to trust CPS authorities omniscience in the matter?
over 18 | 3:59 p.m. April 29, 2008
they do have drivers lisences and cars!!!!!
They are American citizens and also HUMANS believe it or not. YES, they have been being treated as cattle.
and if any officer called in on a drivers lisence they would find out if it was fake. When they finally did this was when they let the two 22 year olds go.
Scotto in TX | 4:12 p.m. April 29, 2008
I think many contributors here need to be patient. DNA testing is pretty good at
this point, and if babies are fathered by someone in the group, that pattern
will show up in the data soon enough.
BootScootnBoogie | 4:20 p.m. April 29, 2008
We do not know a lot about the unique needs of these children. What do I need
to know before giving anything to the children from YFZ?
I know the color red is not allowed.
Does anyone know anything else?
I'm not talking about food but something the children might take comfort in receiving.
Are they allowed to have dolls? Stuffed animals? Certain type of toys? Books?
Thanks for real suggestions.
I know the color red is not allowed.
Does anyone know anything else?
I'm not talking about food but something the children might take comfort in receiving.
Are they allowed to have dolls? Stuffed animals? Certain type of toys? Books?
Thanks for real suggestions.
BeeCareful | 5:05 p.m. April 29, 2008
1.What good will DNA testing be if they can't locate the fathers? They have
not arrested any men? Any of them who are really "guilty" of fathering
children by under age girls have long since vanished unless they're total
idiots. So what good is all this testing.
2. How do they know some of the "teenagers" have given birth? Have they done detailed, invasive, degrading embarrassing pelvic exams on these victims against their will? Why are they punishing the victims here?
Lots of questions, few answers. Texas has egg all over its face!
2. How do they know some of the "teenagers" have given birth? Have they done detailed, invasive, degrading embarrassing pelvic exams on these victims against their will? Why are they punishing the victims here?
Lots of questions, few answers. Texas has egg all over its face!
Insterested | 5:29 p.m. April 29, 2008
Thank you again Hoosier.
Exactly the point I was trying to make! The power we the American public have given to CPS is shocking as evidenced by this case. And to me; equally shocking is that they can in full view of the public eye use it like this with what I presume is complete confidence.
In my opinion it is time for us the American public to step back and take a serious look at this government arm that has power outside of the scope of the Constitution. Judge, jury and executioner all in one and just because they (CPS officials) think something is wrong or bad! Is that the kind of America we want.
To all of you that think CPS is doing such a wonderfull job why don't you go and look into their track record. How does it compare with the average parent in America????
Do we really believe that CPS can stop every child in America from suffering???
Do we really believe that this action is the best way that CPS can help with the problem of child abuse???
I think it is time to go to change the power CPS has.
Exactly the point I was trying to make! The power we the American public have given to CPS is shocking as evidenced by this case. And to me; equally shocking is that they can in full view of the public eye use it like this with what I presume is complete confidence.
In my opinion it is time for us the American public to step back and take a serious look at this government arm that has power outside of the scope of the Constitution. Judge, jury and executioner all in one and just because they (CPS officials) think something is wrong or bad! Is that the kind of America we want.
To all of you that think CPS is doing such a wonderfull job why don't you go and look into their track record. How does it compare with the average parent in America????
Do we really believe that CPS can stop every child in America from suffering???
Do we really believe that this action is the best way that CPS can help with the problem of child abuse???
I think it is time to go to change the power CPS has.
Perfection | 6:20 p.m. April 29, 2008
Nobody claimed that CPS is perfect and knows every single child that is or has
been abused. All that CPS can do is respond to those they receive information
about. They received information about FLDS and are responding to that. It is
that simple.
Fred one | 7:24 p.m. April 29, 2008
Even if the CPS loses on this case, the polygamy issue must not seize from being
investigated to the fullest extent of the law. It's obvious that FLDS
cannot tell the truth about anything. Their whole religion is only based on
total lies!
SparkyVA | 7:50 p.m. April 29, 2008
Can someone explain the source of income for the FLDS community? My suspicion is
that it it Aid to dependent Children as well as other forms of welfare. The
Spiritual marriages would be non-legal and leave the mothers free to say they
had no legal husbands. If this is the case, then the real cause of this tragedy
is the do gooders who set up these laws and giveaways that this group has
learned to live on. Remove the give-away and remove the problem.
Julie | 8:45 p.m. April 29, 2008
One more thing. It sure is telling that the church run newspaper has more
comments that are pro FLDS then not. CPS did their job, these people abused
their children. Hopefully some of those dirty old men go to jail. Why is that so
hard to understand Utah??? Too close to home for you.
OnceAChild | 8:48 p.m. April 29, 2008
This is another of those ugly situations where man thinks he can control all
those around him who trust him. He uses his power to abuse the tender hearted by
convincing them he is a god. Stories like this are becoming more and more known
to the world, and they who have committed such atrocities or worse, their names
will continue to be "shouted from the rooftops". They will not be able
to hide their offenses from the world anymore.
bilbo | 8:52 p.m. April 29, 2008
The following statement is NOT in defense of FLDS; it is against the
heavy-handed Texas actions that were the worst of any realistic options.
We agree the age of 13-16 is too young for marriage, especially 'arranged' marriage.
But, the years of 13-16 are very active years when related to abortions, sexual activity, drugs and crime in a lot of subcultures and geograhic areas in good ol USA.
We bemoan the facts mentioned above, but pay Planned Parenthood $55 million (yes, FIFTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS!) per year to provide confidential and anonymous abortions, birth control and related counseling to females of the same age group, with no parental input or authority.
Where is the outrage for this miscarriage of justice and gross hypocrisy?
WHERE is the OUTRAGE!!!???
You who gloat are in serious denial of the degeneracy of our society (which YOU and I are part of) in these areas.
We really need to research Margaret Sanger, American Birth Contro and Planned Parenthood.
The racial outrages of these groups and individuals make you sick!
Where is the OUTRAGE, you hypocrites!?
We agree the age of 13-16 is too young for marriage, especially 'arranged' marriage.
But, the years of 13-16 are very active years when related to abortions, sexual activity, drugs and crime in a lot of subcultures and geograhic areas in good ol USA.
We bemoan the facts mentioned above, but pay Planned Parenthood $55 million (yes, FIFTY FIVE MILLION DOLLARS!) per year to provide confidential and anonymous abortions, birth control and related counseling to females of the same age group, with no parental input or authority.
Where is the outrage for this miscarriage of justice and gross hypocrisy?
WHERE is the OUTRAGE!!!???
You who gloat are in serious denial of the degeneracy of our society (which YOU and I are part of) in these areas.
We really need to research Margaret Sanger, American Birth Contro and Planned Parenthood.
The racial outrages of these groups and individuals make you sick!
Where is the OUTRAGE, you hypocrites!?
VegasBaby | 8:55 p.m. April 29, 2008
Hey SparkyVA, go to the business entity search of the Nevada Secretary of State
web site and search the last names of the sect leaders and you will see where
they get a lot the money to fund their operations. Rulon is still president of
some of the active corporations.
No Proven Facts To Date | 9:41 p.m. April 29, 2008
Everything that the State of Texas has stated so far is nothing more than
speculation. CPS has yet to state any proven facts. So how much are they paying
per day for this roundup mess? FACT, these people do home school. They save the
state hundreds of thousands doing this. No one has charged them with welfare
fraud or mentioned it legally. If public opinion is cemented in wild gossip
only, then I can now comprehand why more was not done for the Jews when Hitler
made his outrageous demands and spread his extermination orders by attempting to
poison the minds of everyday government workers.First, seperate them and bus
them apart. Until proof positive surfaces that a law was broken, these children
were neglected or abused, or that an actual crime took place, public opinion
needs to remain more open minded to both sides. I do hope, for the sake of the
children, the hearings move quickly.A day in the life of a misplaced, scared
child is a long time. How long will it take to repair the damage as weeks go by?
Texas, I'm glad you have big money, but money can't fix some damage.
X FLDS | 10:28 p.m. April 29, 2008
re----No proven facts to date??????
YOU OBVIOUSLY TURNING YOUR BACK FROM THE TRUTH. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!
YOU OBVIOUSLY TURNING YOUR BACK FROM THE TRUTH. YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF!
Fact seeker | 10:27 p.m. April 29, 2008
FLDS marriages, according to their website, are one legal, and the rest
spiritual. The spiritual wives are eligible for welfare and get it for their
NUMEROUS children. Remember, the more wives and children, the higher tier in
heaven they'll reach. Talk about taxing the system, they are already doing
it, and not putting a dime back into it!
The men work, according to other articles, for government and contract entities. Look up the Lost Boys. There's no way the gender split in children under 13 is about 1:1 but 13 and over there's 3 times more girls than boys.
The reason the other states with FLDS compounds in them haven't acted is because their followers or government contracts are tied into the leadership of their townships.
Kudos to Texas for thinking of the children first. If one child in 10 is being abused, all 10 need to be removed because the abuser will turn on the others. If the mothers are willing to put their children in front of their ideology, they should have to prove that before getting them back.
The men work, according to other articles, for government and contract entities. Look up the Lost Boys. There's no way the gender split in children under 13 is about 1:1 but 13 and over there's 3 times more girls than boys.
The reason the other states with FLDS compounds in them haven't acted is because their followers or government contracts are tied into the leadership of their townships.
Kudos to Texas for thinking of the children first. If one child in 10 is being abused, all 10 need to be removed because the abuser will turn on the others. If the mothers are willing to put their children in front of their ideology, they should have to prove that before getting them back.
anon | 12:22 a.m. April 30, 2008
It is not normal for the mother of any child that gets taken by cps to get to go
with. These mothers have been lying to law enforcement and cps to protect
themselves and their spiritual husbands, instead of cooperating. There is
seemingly a very low ratio of boys to girls in the teenage group. Where are
these boys?? I think that these women need counseling before they should be
allowed to have their children back. I understand that they love their
children, but they dont know that they themselves are the victims of abuse, and
have been themselves perpetrating abuse, unknowingly. One cannot compare the
statistics of normal teen births with the flds rate. more than 50 percent is
astronomical!!
Jim2485 | 8:18 p.m. April 30, 2008
Every day it seems less likely that these people are guilty of anything other
than being religious. If they have broken the law they should be charged and
dealt with. Lay charges immediately or let the children go home, this
"trial by press release" has gone on long enough. The nightmare these
children are enduring at the hands of the State of Texas cannot be justified and
should cease immediately.
JR | 10:02 a.m. May 1, 2008
When I was small my grandfather was a farmer. He raised cattle---one
"Big,mean "bull, and a large herd of cows.Are these men any different
from amimals? From my viewpoint, it appears they are a bunch of"dumb
brutes" on a power trip to satisify their own selfish sexual fantisieswhile
enjoying the power trip of controling other people.
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1: Governor Perry was involved from the beginning.
2: CPS will get what it wants; Lots-o-money.
3: Texas will have a financial toll for years to come.
4: Many of the children will be abused in Foster Care, if not die.
5: Many careers will be made or destroyed.
6: The Baptists will continue to lose membership.