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This won't be 'another Short Creek'
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John Lambert | 11:09 a.m. April 29, 2008
Fortunantly CPS has not used the term pedophile, but many people on these
boards have.
A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. No one has brought up any charges of sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children in this case.
I do not think any criminal charges will be filed. The fruit of the forbidden tree doctrine will block them.
I guess I was wrong and Texas has made marriage with someone under age 16 criminal. It is hard to see such a law being upheld when anti-sodomy laws have been overthrown and the ability of the state to dictate what relationships can recieve state recognition is in question.
However, since the post-1970 Supreme Court is an activist court that acts more like a legislature, I can see it actually supporting such a non-logical set of laws.
I think that the state should be able to dictate the limits of what relationships can recieve state recognition, but I do not think the mere act of saying a relationship is a marriage should be prosecutale. I do oppose the broad use of marraige, but this is my political view, and should be allowed others under free speech.
A pedophile is someone who is sexually attracted to pre-pubescent children. No one has brought up any charges of sexual attraction to pre-pubescent children in this case.
I do not think any criminal charges will be filed. The fruit of the forbidden tree doctrine will block them.
I guess I was wrong and Texas has made marriage with someone under age 16 criminal. It is hard to see such a law being upheld when anti-sodomy laws have been overthrown and the ability of the state to dictate what relationships can recieve state recognition is in question.
However, since the post-1970 Supreme Court is an activist court that acts more like a legislature, I can see it actually supporting such a non-logical set of laws.
I think that the state should be able to dictate the limits of what relationships can recieve state recognition, but I do not think the mere act of saying a relationship is a marriage should be prosecutale. I do oppose the broad use of marraige, but this is my political view, and should be allowed others under free speech.
John Lambert | 11:22 a.m. April 29, 2008
I have thought about the Shurtleff approach again. Besides the fact he likes
to take too much of the credit for it, it does work.
A raid like Texas did hurts the cause of bringing about real, permanent change. What you want is actual convictions which Shurtleff is getting. Once you put people in jail for statutory rape and being accesories to statutory rape, the marriage age will go up. This is the way to stop the marriage of underage girls. Head on assaults will result in nothing except defensiveness and a greater desire to continue the practices in the face of persecution.
A raid like Texas did hurts the cause of bringing about real, permanent change. What you want is actual convictions which Shurtleff is getting. Once you put people in jail for statutory rape and being accesories to statutory rape, the marriage age will go up. This is the way to stop the marriage of underage girls. Head on assaults will result in nothing except defensiveness and a greater desire to continue the practices in the face of persecution.
Comments continue below
John Lambert | 11:37 a.m. April 29, 2008
TO to about Missouri mobs:
The Missouri mobs and not Joseph Smith were the ones who destroyed a printing press.
The printing press destruction you refer to was done in Nauvoo under order of the city council. It was done because the Nauvoo Expositor sought to destroy the Nauvoo Charter which the saints knew was the only thing between them and the persecution that had existed in Missouri.
However Joseph Smith was incarcerated not on charges relatated to the destruction of the press, he had been released on bail on those chages by Daniel H. Wells, the most prominant non-Mormon in Nauvoo (yes he later joined the church, but that is not the issue). He was inprisoned on charges related to having declared martial law to prevent riots in the wake of the destruction of the press.
If you think destroying a press is a capital offense than calling his killers a vigilante mob may make sense. However, since most people do not think property destuction is a capital offense especially when done in self defense, your characterization of the situation is inconsistent with prevaling views.
The Missouri mobs and not Joseph Smith were the ones who destroyed a printing press.
The printing press destruction you refer to was done in Nauvoo under order of the city council. It was done because the Nauvoo Expositor sought to destroy the Nauvoo Charter which the saints knew was the only thing between them and the persecution that had existed in Missouri.
However Joseph Smith was incarcerated not on charges relatated to the destruction of the press, he had been released on bail on those chages by Daniel H. Wells, the most prominant non-Mormon in Nauvoo (yes he later joined the church, but that is not the issue). He was inprisoned on charges related to having declared martial law to prevent riots in the wake of the destruction of the press.
If you think destroying a press is a capital offense than calling his killers a vigilante mob may make sense. However, since most people do not think property destuction is a capital offense especially when done in self defense, your characterization of the situation is inconsistent with prevaling views.
Nano | 12:43 p.m. April 29, 2008
Just curious. Let me know what you think. Do you suppose we'll hear
about the abuse that will statistically unavoidably occur after these children
are runn through the foster care system?
amazed | 1:40 p.m. April 29, 2008
HELLO people remember innocent until PROVEN guilty,we in this country have a
CONSTITUTION to be governed by, and all Judges ,Governors etc take an oath of
office to uphold THE CONSTITUTION....looks like we are prosecuting the wrong
people!!!
To Pico | 1:52 p.m. April 29, 2008
Don't mess with Texas, means just what it implies. You included. Don't
mess with the children here, we value them.
Don't ever move here, you'd be boo'ed out of the Alamo
Don't ever move here, you'd be boo'ed out of the Alamo
Pico | 3:59 p.m. April 29, 2008
You've illustrated beautifully the point I was trying to make. Aside from
this fiasco, how does texas stand with teen pregnancies? Abused children?
Rapes? Not all that well. texas is a mess. So far we've gotten a dim witted vp, a dimmer witted president, a load of state sponsered executions, and loads of undocumented workers from texas. At least the compound wasn't burned to the ground to protect these folks from themselves.
Rapes? Not all that well. texas is a mess. So far we've gotten a dim witted vp, a dimmer witted president, a load of state sponsered executions, and loads of undocumented workers from texas. At least the compound wasn't burned to the ground to protect these folks from themselves.
convicts himself | 3:50 a.m. April 30, 2008
Don't you love this quote: "This violates Texas values and our
lifestyle and the way we see traditional relationships. We are not going to
tolerate it."
I guess with that reasoning for making a law, maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that the verdict wasn't against any specific cases of Actions against the law, but against believing the law was wrong...
- Welcome to "land of the free" where if I don't like what you believe, I'll make a law against it - then "save" your children by forcibly taking them from you - not for actions against my new law, but for not believing my new law is right!
I guess with that reasoning for making a law, maybe we shouldn't be so surprised that the verdict wasn't against any specific cases of Actions against the law, but against believing the law was wrong...
- Welcome to "land of the free" where if I don't like what you believe, I'll make a law against it - then "save" your children by forcibly taking them from you - not for actions against my new law, but for not believing my new law is right!
re: convicts himself | 9:20 a.m. April 30, 2008
you make a valad point. This is an eerie echo of the Edmunds anti-polygamy act
of 1882. An act aimed at a specific group of people.
people | 10:29 a.m. April 30, 2008
This isn't about polygamy, you need only read thesmokinggun to see the
control used by men against women/girls/children. A girl from the compound was
asked her age, answered the question as 16 and then was told by Ray Jessop her
age "was eighteen" and which she responded as directed by Ray Jessop.
Anonymous | 12:00 a.m. May 1, 2008
No one argues that having sex with an underage girl is wrong however the way the
state of Texas took the children smacks of intolerance and religious
persecution. The small children are in no danger, why take them? There was no
due process. The way they did it was if one is guilty than all are guilty. If
the state can do it to these people, who is next? It would be like the Catholic
priest abuse scandal. If you are Catholic then your children are in danger of
being molested so hand over your children. The FLDS constitutional rights were
trampled on without proof. I am a firm believer in the rule of law and Texas is
not following it.
Not based on innocence | 7:35 a.m. May 1, 2008
A previous post stated: "Comparisons to Missouri or Nauvoo are perverse.
Those were illegal mob actions against innocent people." Illegal actions
do not just become legal because the victims are guilty as opposed to innocent.
Constitutional protections apply to all, not only the innocent. This is a case
of gross constitional violations (not referring to freedom of religion, but
freedom from unreasonable search and seizure--there was not the necessary
evidence to do this right). Everyone keeps posting that we're going to
wait and see the truth come to light, but that's not how the law works. We
can't overstep constitutional rights--even in the name of getting to the
truth.
Ralph | 9:55 a.m. May 2, 2008
The early mormon polygamist that took girls of fourteen years of age as wives,
would the be considered pedophiles.
Re: Ralph | 12:45 p.m. May 2, 2008
Not back in the Victorian era. It was commonplace for older, more settled men
to marry women as young as 14 and 15. Kinda weird now tho.
Barb | 10:45 a.m. May 20, 2008
Hey, Blackbane, how come their all-wise prophet didn't move them all to
Mass? Looks like Uncle Warren guessed wrong.
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Many posters on here are not polygomist apologists, but are still appalled at the obvious heavy-handed, predudicial, and probably unconstitutional actions of the lone excuse state.