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This won't be 'another Short Creek'
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Re3: Shout Rooftops | 1:33 p.m. April 28, 2008
Scenario: You are a policeman walking down the street and you hear a womans
screams coming from a house. The screams are loud and asking for Help. You
decide to enter the residence and you find the Screams are coming from the TV
but there is a woman bound and gagged with a man torturing her. Should you close
the door and leave since she was not able to scream and you were not responding
to her scream?
Re3:Gal50 | 1:41 p.m. April 28, 2008
So it is your belief that if Texas had taken all of the girls 12-17 that the
perverts would not decide that girls under the age of 12 would be acceptable.
And that also applies to the boys. Read the story of Brent Jeffs who was
molested as a young boy by his Uncles. And he was the Grandson of the Prophet. I
do not believe there were monogamous households in this compound. These people
were hand picked and brought to Texas only 4 years ago. I don't think they
would have brought some that did not practice the beliefs.
Re4: Shout Rooftops | 1:47 p.m. April 28, 2008
Of course not! Let's look at a more applicable example. You are a
policeman walking down the street, and you hear a woman's screams coming
from an apartment building. You decide to enter the building, and you find the
screams are coming from a TV, but there is a woman bound and gagged with a man
torturing her. After arresting the man and freeing the woman, should you then
search every other apartment in the building assuming that women are bound and
gagged in each one or that they may eventually be bound and gagged if what goes
on in that building is allowed to continue?
Same answer - Of course not!
Same answer - Of course not!
Comments continue below
Anon | 1:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
Law is my next-door-neighbor holding a gun to my head and commanding me to do
what I would not, or refrain from what I wish.
"We didn't invite them here, but by God we are going to make sure they follow the law," Hilderbran said. "This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the way we see traditional relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."
'nuff said.
"We didn't invite them here, but by God we are going to make sure they follow the law," Hilderbran said. "This violates Texas values and our lifestyle and the way we see traditional relationships. We are not going to tolerate it."
'nuff said.
Re4: Gal50 | 1:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
Their purpose is to make children, as many and as often as possible. With this
mindset, why would they abuse girls who can't have children?
You can't legally hold all people of a group responsible for what one or some do.
I didn't say there was a monogamous household on the ranch, their lawyers did. Since this is easy to verify, I doubt their lawyers would make it up. But we shall see.
You can't legally hold all people of a group responsible for what one or some do.
I didn't say there was a monogamous household on the ranch, their lawyers did. Since this is easy to verify, I doubt their lawyers would make it up. But we shall see.
bound and gagged | 2:01 p.m. April 28, 2008
FLDS functioned as a group, all members practicing the same. There are no
distinct "families", half of the women don't even know who their
own children are. If there were illegal practices in the compound the only
choice is to protect all the children, for the purpose of the "bound and
gagged" example all 400+ children live in the same apartment as the lady
you discover being tortured.
Re4:Shout Rooftops | 2:04 p.m. April 28, 2008
This was not actually an apartment building of different people with different
beliefs from different walks of life. This was a compound of Polygamists that
were all receiving their orders and endoctrination from the same
"Prophet": Can you see the difference?
Re: RE4 Gal50 | 2:05 p.m. April 28, 2008
We have never known a Lawyer or an FLDS member to lie before...NOT
Red Texan | 2:07 p.m. April 28, 2008
While you plig apologists are bashing Texas, you might want to stop and consider
that without us and our courageous ("Don't Mess with Texas")
stands at San Jacinto, Goliad and the Alamo, there would be no western US. You
would all be part of Mexico, and I would just love to see what due process you
could count on there.
As for the law being changed from 14 (13 only by a judge) to 16, this was to provide for parents of kids who had gotten into "trouble" voluntarily. It became clear after the FLDS moved in that it had the potential to enable child abusers and rapists.
Go Harvey! Go Texas. Thanks for having the courage that others lacked! Texas can be forever known as protecting women and children from pligs and their meglomania and abuse. The.Great.State.of.Texas. God bless her forever.
As for the law being changed from 14 (13 only by a judge) to 16, this was to provide for parents of kids who had gotten into "trouble" voluntarily. It became clear after the FLDS moved in that it had the potential to enable child abusers and rapists.
Go Harvey! Go Texas. Thanks for having the courage that others lacked! Texas can be forever known as protecting women and children from pligs and their meglomania and abuse. The.Great.State.of.Texas. God bless her forever.
to: Re4: Gal50 | 1:52 p.m. | 2:11 p.m. April 28, 2008
Brent Jeffs couldn't make children, that didn't protect him from
abuse.
G | 2:14 p.m. April 28, 2008
"The reason Texas used to allow 14 year-olds to marry was because the kids
were pregnant, single-parent offspring faced discrimination and the divorce rate
was low."
There is no excuse for underage pregnancy, even if it's Baptists practicing it.
That's still underage girls being pressured into marriage to fulfill religious purposes (covering the shame of single motherhood), only when non-"Mormons" practice it lots of Texans are willing to go to the bat for them.
I ask again, do they not have adoption in Texas? Because I fail to see any common sense in marrying off a child just because she pregnant simply because you're afraid of what your neighbors think. This particular Texan mentality doesn't seem so different from the FLDS to me.
There is no excuse for underage pregnancy, even if it's Baptists practicing it.
That's still underage girls being pressured into marriage to fulfill religious purposes (covering the shame of single motherhood), only when non-"Mormons" practice it lots of Texans are willing to go to the bat for them.
I ask again, do they not have adoption in Texas? Because I fail to see any common sense in marrying off a child just because she pregnant simply because you're afraid of what your neighbors think. This particular Texan mentality doesn't seem so different from the FLDS to me.
Willy Steele | 2:21 p.m. April 28, 2008
Where is the PROOF of abuse, posters against the FLDS???? You all speculate and
rehash the ignorance spewed by anti-Christian mobsters and illegitimate
moralists on this forum but where is YOUR PROOF of wrong doing? Just an opinion,
your view or feelings doesn�t cut it. Individuals not
groups are held accountable for breaking a law. Where is your proof Texas CPS
that you can hold these entire people hostage and forcibly collect information
to use against them? Are you still waiting for Public sympathy to make your case
legal? Innuendo and maybes aren�t proof it in a real
justice system Texas CPS! These people have Constitutional guarantees against
government interference and a system of due process when real laws are broken.
You have a collective NOTHING on all these people so drop the protection act and
return the children to their mothers. Do the right thing, Judge Walther, return
the case back to the Devil where it originated.
Anonymous | 2:24 p.m. April 28, 2008
The ACLU filed a law suit for NAMBLA (Old geezers that want to have sex with
young boys.)The ACLU had better act for the FLDS or it will show them as the
liberal cesspool that they are. I feel sorry for most of the FLDS people
because all their children were removed without due process and without proof of
imminent harm to all their children. The problem these people face is back woods
justice. Where capital punishment is a sport.
Re5: Gal50 | 2:33 p.m. April 28, 2008
We shall see.
Red Texan | 2:36 p.m. April 28, 2008
G--it wasn't shame or religion but folks coming together to raise a child.
You know--us yahoos in Texas put the welfare of women and children pretty high
up there. Plenty of children are adopted out in Texas, as elsewhere, but it is
not for everyone and we don't force that on girls either. I know it's
kind of hard for you so I'll speak slowly: t h e l a w w a s f o r
t h e e x c e p t i o n, n o t t h e r u l e - o r i n t h i s c a
s e e v e r y d a y a b u s e a n d c h i l d r a p e.
Red Texan | 2:40 p.m. April 28, 2008
SL Trib is reporting 31 of 53 teenaged girls from FLDS compound have been
pregnant. Systemic abuse.
Go Texas!
Go Texas!
Re5: Shout Rooftops | 2:41 p.m. April 28, 2008
Practically speaking, I can see the difference. Legally speaking, I can't.
The law can't assume that all people of a group will behave identically
even if taught the same "precepts". Otherwise, our law enforcement
will begin to resemble the police in "Minority Report". You
can't arrest people because you're "sure" they will
eventually break the law. According to many legal experts that are speaking up,
you can't take a parent's children because you're
"sure" that his/her beliefs will lead to abuse years later.
That's not how our civil or criminal legal systems are supposed to work.
And thank goodness for that!
Doug S | 2:42 p.m. April 28, 2008
Red Texan: Your knowledge of your own state's history is worse than your
knowledge of your own nation's constitution.
Texas was just one of many factors that triggered the Mexican War, and once the war started the US Army made it into Mexico City just fine without Texas' help.
Get over yourselves.
Texas was just one of many factors that triggered the Mexican War, and once the war started the US Army made it into Mexico City just fine without Texas' help.
Get over yourselves.
Re: Willy Steele | 2:53 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Where is the PROOF of abuse..."
There can be no PROOF, in any case, until there has been a trial.
Until then, all we have is evidence and PROBABLE CAUSE.
That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to look at the evidence so far and form their own opinions.
For PROOF of abuse, look to your leader, Warren Jeffs and his many followers who have already been convicted of child abuse for similar offenses.
There can be no PROOF, in any case, until there has been a trial.
Until then, all we have is evidence and PROBABLE CAUSE.
That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to look at the evidence so far and form their own opinions.
For PROOF of abuse, look to your leader, Warren Jeffs and his many followers who have already been convicted of child abuse for similar offenses.
Re: Blackbane | 2:57 p.m. April 28, 2008
How long do you think it would take New Hampshire to change their marriage laws
if the FLDS were to establish a YFZ Ranch in New Hampshire?
everybody knows | 3:00 p.m. April 28, 2008
the Mexican War couldn't have been won with out the MORMON BATTALION.
you're welcome, Texas
Doug S | 3:05 p.m. April 28, 2008
Everybody Knows - I wouldn't go that far. From a strategic standpoint the
Mormon Battalion didn't really do a heck of a lot, except wander around in
the wilderness for a few months (enduring great hardship and making military
history, to be sure). Heck, the war was practically over before they even got
to the battlefront.
G | 3:12 p.m. April 28, 2008
Red Texan: "G--it wasn't shame or religion but folks coming together
to raise a child. You know--us yahoos in Texas put the welfare of women and
children pretty high up there"
Yeah, 14-year-old folks.
Marrying kids that are too young to legally have a job and expecting them to raise a child of their own is not my idea of welfare for women or children, whether it's FLDS or Southern Baptists, who marry their pregnant daughters to keep the neighbors from shaming them. I don't see how anyone can possibly call that "helping" the daughter is beyond comprehension, but not important to the point at hand.
What irks me about this case, and I think a lot of others, is how so many Texans come to bat for their own dirty laundry but at the same time cry horror at the FLDS take on child marriage.
I think many commentators here could stand for more objectivity and less hypocrisy. Until then, it's clear that this entire boondoggle is nothing more than religious bias. FLDS made the neighbors nervous and the state took care of it at their first opportunity.
If you want to find teenagers at risk, raid a clinic.
Yeah, 14-year-old folks.
Marrying kids that are too young to legally have a job and expecting them to raise a child of their own is not my idea of welfare for women or children, whether it's FLDS or Southern Baptists, who marry their pregnant daughters to keep the neighbors from shaming them. I don't see how anyone can possibly call that "helping" the daughter is beyond comprehension, but not important to the point at hand.
What irks me about this case, and I think a lot of others, is how so many Texans come to bat for their own dirty laundry but at the same time cry horror at the FLDS take on child marriage.
I think many commentators here could stand for more objectivity and less hypocrisy. Until then, it's clear that this entire boondoggle is nothing more than religious bias. FLDS made the neighbors nervous and the state took care of it at their first opportunity.
If you want to find teenagers at risk, raid a clinic.
everybody knows | 3:15 p.m. April 28, 2008
irony when they read it
Short Creek? | 3:17 p.m. April 28, 2008
You are right...it's worse!
William F. Butler | 3:35 p.m. April 28, 2008
Red Texan:
You had better learn your law a little more before you start lecturing. Marriage age of 14 is based on English Common Law and was extent throughout the various states (with some variations). In fact, a number of states back in the 1800s had 12 as the age of consent for the girl and 14 as the age of consent for the boy because the original English Common Law had those ages.
During the 19th century the laws were slowly changed wih the age creeping up to 14 and 14, respectively. Even so, some states had the age several years older while some states continued until the first decade or so of the 20th century to have the ages young (like 12 & 14 or 14 & 14). It has only been in the 20th century (and now 21st century) that the expectation for age of marriage/consent has risen to the older ages. That was because of the extension of childhood and the urbanization of the nation in general.
More agrarian and traditional societies have always had a younger age of consent than more urban societies.
You had better learn your law a little more before you start lecturing. Marriage age of 14 is based on English Common Law and was extent throughout the various states (with some variations). In fact, a number of states back in the 1800s had 12 as the age of consent for the girl and 14 as the age of consent for the boy because the original English Common Law had those ages.
During the 19th century the laws were slowly changed wih the age creeping up to 14 and 14, respectively. Even so, some states had the age several years older while some states continued until the first decade or so of the 20th century to have the ages young (like 12 & 14 or 14 & 14). It has only been in the 20th century (and now 21st century) that the expectation for age of marriage/consent has risen to the older ages. That was because of the extension of childhood and the urbanization of the nation in general.
More agrarian and traditional societies have always had a younger age of consent than more urban societies.
BeeCareful | 3:44 p.m. April 28, 2008
Hypocrite: a person who pretends to have virtues, moral or religious beliefs,
principles, etc., that he or she does not actually possess, esp. a person whose
actions belie stated beliefs.
Texas law enforcement establishment credo:
FLDS girls have children at a young age. They are wicked and bad and we won't tolerate them because they believe in weird things and wear long dresses and no makeup. Let's raid their church building and take away their children and mothers.
Inner-city girls have children at a young age. They are to be supported and accepted because they are only reflecting the culture they were brought up in. They dress like prostitutes, do drugs and wear tons of makeup, but at least they don't have any funny religious beliefs. Let's send them a bigger welfare check each month and subsidize their rent. Then fight any effort by the state to separate them from
their children.
Anybody else smell the rank double standard?
Texas law enforcement establishment credo:
FLDS girls have children at a young age. They are wicked and bad and we won't tolerate them because they believe in weird things and wear long dresses and no makeup. Let's raid their church building and take away their children and mothers.
Inner-city girls have children at a young age. They are to be supported and accepted because they are only reflecting the culture they were brought up in. They dress like prostitutes, do drugs and wear tons of makeup, but at least they don't have any funny religious beliefs. Let's send them a bigger welfare check each month and subsidize their rent. Then fight any effort by the state to separate them from
their children.
Anybody else smell the rank double standard?
huh?! | 3:48 p.m. April 28, 2008
"...
everybody knows | 3:00 p.m. April 28, 2008
the Mexican War couldn't have been won with out the MORMON BATTALION. you're welcome, Texas..."
?
"...For years, Mormons viewed the Mormon Battalion as an unjust imposition upon the Mormons, and as a further act of persecution by the United States (Carrington 1857, p. 5)..."
"...Approaching Tucson, in future Arizona, the battalion nearly had a battle with a small detachment of provisional Mexican soldiers on December 16, 1846..."
"...Nearing the end of their journey, the battalion passed through Temecula, California during the aftermath of the Temecula Massacre..."
Ummm..thanks for nearly getting into a battle, and for arriving after another one and watching the dead get buried?
everybody knows | 3:00 p.m. April 28, 2008
the Mexican War couldn't have been won with out the MORMON BATTALION. you're welcome, Texas..."
?
"...For years, Mormons viewed the Mormon Battalion as an unjust imposition upon the Mormons, and as a further act of persecution by the United States (Carrington 1857, p. 5)..."
"...Approaching Tucson, in future Arizona, the battalion nearly had a battle with a small detachment of provisional Mexican soldiers on December 16, 1846..."
"...Nearing the end of their journey, the battalion passed through Temecula, California during the aftermath of the Temecula Massacre..."
Ummm..thanks for nearly getting into a battle, and for arriving after another one and watching the dead get buried?
duh?! | 3:53 p.m. April 28, 2008
I was taught the Mormon Battalion was considered a blessing because it provided
cash at a desperate time, and that Church leaders encouraged men to sign up.
Widespread Abuse | 3:56 p.m. April 28, 2008
It's all starting to come out:
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
Loving parents who were concerned about protecting their children from the evil "outsiders"? Or child abusers?
Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado. Of that group, 31 already have children or are pregnant.
Child welfare officials say there was a pattern of underage girls forced into "spiritual marriages" with much older men at the ranch.
Loving parents who were concerned about protecting their children from the evil "outsiders"? Or child abusers?
G | 3:59 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Child Protective Services spokesman Darrell Azar says 53 girls between the
ages of 14 and 17 were living on the ranch in Eldorado."
Okay, 53 girls at risk.
How many kids did CPS actually take away? 400 or so?
Here's my suggestion for Texas:
(1) Get evidence
(2) Prosecute the males responsible.
(3) Let the rest of the church get on with their lives and live where they see fit.
Okay, 53 girls at risk.
How many kids did CPS actually take away? 400 or so?
Here's my suggestion for Texas:
(1) Get evidence
(2) Prosecute the males responsible.
(3) Let the rest of the church get on with their lives and live where they see fit.
Doug S | 4:10 p.m. April 28, 2008
Not to turn this into a Mormon Battalion threadjack, but . . .
As I understand it, Young (or some other high church officials, or their representatives) actually engineered the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion through quiet negotiations in Washington. Lots in the US government didn't think the Mormons were sufficiently loyal to serve in the army, but Young realized that their salaries were desperately needed for the trip west.
As I understand it, Young (or some other high church officials, or their representatives) actually engineered the recruitment of the Mormon Battalion through quiet negotiations in Washington. Lots in the US government didn't think the Mormons were sufficiently loyal to serve in the army, but Young realized that their salaries were desperately needed for the trip west.
How can | 4:11 p.m. April 28, 2008
anyone believe what either Texas CPS or the FLDS have to say at this point?
Both are in this up to their necks. It will be good when these cases start to
be looked at child by child. That's when I expect the truth will really
come out.
Dearest G | 4:17 p.m. April 28, 2008
Thank You for your suggestions.
1) We are, thanks.
2) We have cells (and cellmates!) ready and waiting.
3) Fat Chance. Why would we return children to the cult to be abused as soon as they turn 12? (Besides, there aren't many adults who will get past 2) above.)
Kindest Regards,
Texas
1) We are, thanks.
2) We have cells (and cellmates!) ready and waiting.
3) Fat Chance. Why would we return children to the cult to be abused as soon as they turn 12? (Besides, there aren't many adults who will get past 2) above.)
Kindest Regards,
Texas
Don't stop with the FLDS | 4:21 p.m. April 28, 2008
This is good as soon as Texas is done with the FLDS they'll go after their
professional athletes too. The law is the law, right Texas?
Doug S | 4:26 p.m. April 28, 2008
"Dearest G", I think G meant that you should collect evidence in
accordance with the safeguards incorporated in the Bill of Rights. You
know--"innocent until proven guilty", "probable cause" and
all that.
Rich | 4:38 p.m. April 28, 2008
Harvey, when you say the polygamists violate Texas lifestyle and traditional
relationships, do you include homosexual activity and extramarital and
premarital sex? Those have been traditional for more than a century in Texas,
so are they protected? Swingers advertise for couplings in all your Texas big
city newspapers; is that OK with you as long as there are no 14- to 17-year-old
girls involved. And how about Texas boys having sex with girls in similar age
classes? Is that protected and tolerated by Texas tradition? Just asking.
Ouch! I just bit the inside of my mouth!
Me Oh My | 4:42 p.m. April 28, 2008
The fathers and the male leaders are strangely silent or absent. Your
implication that they have something to hide is right on.
Of course they have something to hide. This country has, unconstitutionaly, made polygamy illegal. And yes I say unconstitutionally because polygamy is a tenant of their religion whether the rest of society believes it or not. If any of these men attempt to stand up for their rights they will be told that they don't have any and be convicted for living polygamy that is why there is no way of saying that this raid is not based off of a relious biase and is ranks of religious persecution.
Of course they have something to hide. This country has, unconstitutionaly, made polygamy illegal. And yes I say unconstitutionally because polygamy is a tenant of their religion whether the rest of society believes it or not. If any of these men attempt to stand up for their rights they will be told that they don't have any and be convicted for living polygamy that is why there is no way of saying that this raid is not based off of a relious biase and is ranks of religious persecution.
G | 4:44 p.m. April 28, 2008
"anyone believe what either Texas CPS or the FLDS have to say at this
point?"
I tend to agree. FLDS, regardless of how much their rights have been trampled, aren't nominees for any good citizen awards. And Texas, my goodness, "found" another child in their custody today--and said it was because it's easier to get a better count in foster homes. Ohhkay--I don't think any adult (or gov't agency) that cannot count should be trusted with 400-something children.
The difference is that CPS is a government agency, is supposed to employ qualified personnel, and will ultimately be accountable for this sort of thing. FLDS, well nobody really expected anything of them.
But at least those numbers are going up rather than down.
I tend to agree. FLDS, regardless of how much their rights have been trampled, aren't nominees for any good citizen awards. And Texas, my goodness, "found" another child in their custody today--and said it was because it's easier to get a better count in foster homes. Ohhkay--I don't think any adult (or gov't agency) that cannot count should be trusted with 400-something children.
The difference is that CPS is a government agency, is supposed to employ qualified personnel, and will ultimately be accountable for this sort of thing. FLDS, well nobody really expected anything of them.
But at least those numbers are going up rather than down.
hmmmmmm | 5:42 p.m. April 28, 2008
It is pretty obvious even the FDLS doesnt know how many children there are
either they lost count 100 births ago
SJ Bobkins | 6:05 p.m. April 28, 2008
The FLDS apologists, which means (for those living in Beaver) defending the
faith not apologizing, are so active, it might seem that the majority view is in
strong disfavor with the Texas action, which doesn't reflect the results of
all the polls on the subject. Just know that we know you're out there and
you have more time on your hands.
I would appreciate it if you would help me understand how you can compare this action with Hitler's Germany, yet the FLDS takes children away from it's men constantly? Along with property and wives, which are also considered property, Jeff's rules that if a father isn't forthcoming with his tithing plus $1000/month, or with his young daughters, or if he makes a statement the leaders don't care for he's gone without the ability to appeal the decision.
The FLDS men in Texas will have the opportunity to appeal. The Hitler's Germany comparison seems better connected to Colorado City, than Texas.
Don't you think that if God wished all men to have 3+ wives, the female to male birth rate would be 3 to 1? I doubt God wishes that 2/3 rds of the men be banished.
I would appreciate it if you would help me understand how you can compare this action with Hitler's Germany, yet the FLDS takes children away from it's men constantly? Along with property and wives, which are also considered property, Jeff's rules that if a father isn't forthcoming with his tithing plus $1000/month, or with his young daughters, or if he makes a statement the leaders don't care for he's gone without the ability to appeal the decision.
The FLDS men in Texas will have the opportunity to appeal. The Hitler's Germany comparison seems better connected to Colorado City, than Texas.
Don't you think that if God wished all men to have 3+ wives, the female to male birth rate would be 3 to 1? I doubt God wishes that 2/3 rds of the men be banished.
Doug S | 6:33 p.m. April 28, 2008
SJ Bobkins -
Some of us aren't FLDS apologists so much as we are civil libertarians who realize that what's happening to the FLDS now could easily happen to us in a few years. If Texas wants to prosecute, then prosecute. But play by the rules.
Incidentally, the second paragraph of your post is a classical "et tu" logical fallacy.
Some of us aren't FLDS apologists so much as we are civil libertarians who realize that what's happening to the FLDS now could easily happen to us in a few years. If Texas wants to prosecute, then prosecute. But play by the rules.
Incidentally, the second paragraph of your post is a classical "et tu" logical fallacy.
Barb | 8:03 p.m. April 28, 2008
1. Why did Warren Jeffs discountinue sports, celebrations, and dances. Brigham
Young in particular approved of dances.
2. Why did Warren Jeffs harp so much on Black people being a conduit of evil, when Elijah Abel and others were ordained to the priesthood? Abel's activities were not restricted until the 1840s and both a son and grandson of his held priesthood office after him, yet everyone knew. Mormonism under Joseph Smith did not specifically ban Blacks from the priesthood.
3. Didn't President John Taylor quiety drop the Adam-God Doctrine, that President Brigham Young taught?
4. On the FLDSTruth.org website, they describe Lorin Wooley as claiming in 1923 that, "The resurrection is going on. There are those I have known in life who have passed away, and I have since seen and shaken hands with them." What are the implications of that?
2. Why did Warren Jeffs harp so much on Black people being a conduit of evil, when Elijah Abel and others were ordained to the priesthood? Abel's activities were not restricted until the 1840s and both a son and grandson of his held priesthood office after him, yet everyone knew. Mormonism under Joseph Smith did not specifically ban Blacks from the priesthood.
3. Didn't President John Taylor quiety drop the Adam-God Doctrine, that President Brigham Young taught?
4. On the FLDSTruth.org website, they describe Lorin Wooley as claiming in 1923 that, "The resurrection is going on. There are those I have known in life who have passed away, and I have since seen and shaken hands with them." What are the implications of that?
timeforachangenow | 8:52 p.m. April 28, 2008
shame on you Texas!
Having been raised in Texas for 17 years as a boy I can only say...
Texas is a good place to be FROM...
won't ever live there again...
in this case they have TRULY overstepped their authority...it IS timeoforachangeNOW
Having been raised in Texas for 17 years as a boy I can only say...
Texas is a good place to be FROM...
won't ever live there again...
in this case they have TRULY overstepped their authority...it IS timeoforachangeNOW
It is written | 9:26 p.m. April 28, 2008
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Peace I bring unto you.
Love one another.
Love your enemies.
Peace I bring unto you.
Love one another.
Love your enemies.
Kathy | 11:40 p.m. April 28, 2008
Ya, I was going to say, go onto any street in america and you find young
pregnant girls. Are they married? Next to never. Do they have someone to take
care of them and their baby? If they are lucky they have parents to help them.
This is not about under age marriage, it is about religious persecution.
hankram | 12:43 a.m. April 29, 2008
Here's what I think:
I don't always like Texas, but if you're in any state other than Utah or Arizona, and the CPS workers find underage pregnant girls, YOU BETCHA THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE THE KIDS.
If the FLDS were actually "Mormons", then here's what they should believe in:
1. The 12th Article of Faith (obeying and sustaining the law).
2. That polygamy and statutory rape are both illegal in Texas.
3. That President Thomas S. Monson is the ACTUAL Prophet, Seer, and Revelator today.
4. That President Willford Woodruff was correct when he received the Manifesto from the Lord, and it would have countermanded any "claim" by President John Taylor when supposedly gave four men the power to practice polygamy (which the "claim" doesn't exist).
I have the sympathy for those brainwashed women and children in Stepford, Texas. They need constant therapy from hereon out.
I don't always like Texas, but if you're in any state other than Utah or Arizona, and the CPS workers find underage pregnant girls, YOU BETCHA THEY'RE GOING TO TAKE THE KIDS.
If the FLDS were actually "Mormons", then here's what they should believe in:
1. The 12th Article of Faith (obeying and sustaining the law).
2. That polygamy and statutory rape are both illegal in Texas.
3. That President Thomas S. Monson is the ACTUAL Prophet, Seer, and Revelator today.
4. That President Willford Woodruff was correct when he received the Manifesto from the Lord, and it would have countermanded any "claim" by President John Taylor when supposedly gave four men the power to practice polygamy (which the "claim" doesn't exist).
I have the sympathy for those brainwashed women and children in Stepford, Texas. They need constant therapy from hereon out.
HeyNow | 12:48 a.m. April 29, 2008
Way to go, Texas! Someone needs to save these brainwashed women from
themselves. The obvious psychological abuses perpetuated upon the children of
this group (of both genders) warrants such extreme action as has been taken.
Truly the hand of God can be said to have led this group to a place where at
least some of the children born into this non-religion can be saved. As for the
men, clearly a group of opportunistic perverts. Some people will claim anything
in order to get their way. The male perps all need to go to jail.
Socrates | 7:20 a.m. April 29, 2008
Mr. Hilderbran:
The following statistics (www.dshs.state.tx.us/famplan/tpp.shtm) were taken from an official Texas website. Every ten hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas. This begs the question, �How many children born to these teens were taken from their mothers? How many �good ol� boys� were prosecuted for statutory rape?�
�Medicaid paid for 173,226 deliveries in Texas at an estimated total cost of $420 million . . . Approximately 10% of these deliveries were to teen mothers aged-13-17, at a cost of $41 million . . .
Every 10 minutes, a teen in Texas gets pregnant.
Every 10 hours, a 14-year-old teen gets pregnant.
Every 3 hours, a 15-year-old teen gets pregnant.
Every 10 minutes a teen gives birth.
Every 48 minutes a teen has an abortion. . . .�
A wise man once said, �He who is without sin cast the first stone.� It would appear from the above facts that your glass house is about to get stoned for a policy of �social imperialism� engineered by a Baptist Legislature and unilaterally enforced on an ethnic minority.
The Constitution is a pretty big stone Mr. Hilderbran and its coming your way . . .
The following statistics (www.dshs.state.tx.us/famplan/tpp.shtm) were taken from an official Texas website. Every ten hours a 14 year old gets pregnant in Texas. This begs the question, �How many children born to these teens were taken from their mothers? How many �good ol� boys� were prosecuted for statutory rape?�
�Medicaid paid for 173,226 deliveries in Texas at an estimated total cost of $420 million . . . Approximately 10% of these deliveries were to teen mothers aged-13-17, at a cost of $41 million . . .
Every 10 minutes, a teen in Texas gets pregnant.
Every 10 hours, a 14-year-old teen gets pregnant.
Every 3 hours, a 15-year-old teen gets pregnant.
Every 10 minutes a teen gives birth.
Every 48 minutes a teen has an abortion. . . .�
A wise man once said, �He who is without sin cast the first stone.� It would appear from the above facts that your glass house is about to get stoned for a policy of �social imperialism� engineered by a Baptist Legislature and unilaterally enforced on an ethnic minority.
The Constitution is a pretty big stone Mr. Hilderbran and its coming your way . . .
JB | 8:04 a.m. April 29, 2008
I this united states, child pornography is against the law, child rape is
against the law. we have registered sex offenders. what best describes the men
in this compound? perverts,sexual addicts,child molesters,, what???
can you possibly imagine, a ten year old little girl in bed with a 50 year old man, or any man. can you picture this disgusting scenario in your mind? some of you have little girls, some of you were little girls. at what age does a little girl quit being a little girl? is it at the time she is forced into the bed of a man she married,and then 9 months later she experiences the excruciating pain of childbirth? accepts the life style she was born into,, because thats all she knows. crying herself to sleep at night, after she has been violated over and over. having been programed that her role in life was to bear as many children as she can, so her little girls can become victims of these monsters just as she had, and her sons, what about them ? kicked out at the tender age of 14,never to see their family again, all under the disguise of a religion.
can you possibly imagine, a ten year old little girl in bed with a 50 year old man, or any man. can you picture this disgusting scenario in your mind? some of you have little girls, some of you were little girls. at what age does a little girl quit being a little girl? is it at the time she is forced into the bed of a man she married,and then 9 months later she experiences the excruciating pain of childbirth? accepts the life style she was born into,, because thats all she knows. crying herself to sleep at night, after she has been violated over and over. having been programed that her role in life was to bear as many children as she can, so her little girls can become victims of these monsters just as she had, and her sons, what about them ? kicked out at the tender age of 14,never to see their family again, all under the disguise of a religion.
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