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Last of kids separated: All FLDS children in Texas now off to foster care
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just thinking II | 4:39 a.m. April 26, 2008
"I believe CPS has two minors who are actually pregnant at this time,"
Parker said. "One of them is almost 18, and one of them is almost
17."
where are the girls that are 13,14,and 15. these are the ones that are illegal? wow what a case the texasan courts have. next we will be finding crayons at the ranch.
where are the girls that are 13,14,and 15. these are the ones that are illegal? wow what a case the texasan courts have. next we will be finding crayons at the ranch.
Real Kidnapping | 5:39 a.m. April 26, 2008
If you actually read to the end of the article, you will find REAL kidnapping.
You will read that fathers that were kicked out had children that were
reassigned different fathers and moved to Texas. What of their constitutional
rights? Thank you CPS and Texas authorities for protecting fathers that had
children stolen from them! May those children also soon be reunited with them
despite the theft by the FLDS "church."
Comments continue below
Lilathe | 6:03 a.m. April 26, 2008
Here is a comment from one of the Houston shelters
""They live with a house parent couple and single house parent who raise them as their own," said Wright.
The children are expected to do chores and go to school, but there is an adjustment period.
"The first thing we do is figure out where each child is, what their values are," Wright said. "We don't think we're better, but we tell them we'll teach them a different way."
For the children coming from the Yearning for Zion compound, much will be different, including their new foster parents religion -- Christianity."
.........
If this isn't a cultural genocide, I don't know what is. They will "raise" these children as their own? So they are already planning on keeping these kids before the parents ever get a day in court.
""They live with a house parent couple and single house parent who raise them as their own," said Wright.
The children are expected to do chores and go to school, but there is an adjustment period.
"The first thing we do is figure out where each child is, what their values are," Wright said. "We don't think we're better, but we tell them we'll teach them a different way."
For the children coming from the Yearning for Zion compound, much will be different, including their new foster parents religion -- Christianity."
.........
If this isn't a cultural genocide, I don't know what is. They will "raise" these children as their own? So they are already planning on keeping these kids before the parents ever get a day in court.
Momof7 | 6:57 a.m. April 26, 2008
Being from Texas, I am sure the state of Texas is proud of themselves!! Nothing
is worse then CPS. If you have never dealt with CPS in Texas, just thank your
lucky stars!
poor children | 7:11 a.m. April 26, 2008
A 12 month old is still a baby and hopefully still nursing. This is cruel and
evil. I hope the lawsuit moves quickly so these children can be reunited with
their families.
How about arresting all underage pregnant girls in the slums and placing them in foster care. Might see a better future in Texas crime rate.
Just very sad for those children and that the government would have that kind of power without any legal leg to stand on at this time. A hoax phone call and so far no evidence provided for this massive military raid. What if they were Muslims? I am sure the world would get involved.
How about arresting all underage pregnant girls in the slums and placing them in foster care. Might see a better future in Texas crime rate.
Just very sad for those children and that the government would have that kind of power without any legal leg to stand on at this time. A hoax phone call and so far no evidence provided for this massive military raid. What if they were Muslims? I am sure the world would get involved.
ex-mormon | 7:32 a.m. April 26, 2008
Texas got it right.
Sugar Momma | 8:22 a.m. April 26, 2008
That's great that some of the outcast fathers are coming out of the wood
work to lay claim to their children. I was wondering if that would happen.
Hopefully they'll have the courage to stand up to the Warren Jeffs' posse in court and give thorough testimonies. Hopefully they've been deprogrammed after being on the outside and seeing WJ's jailhouse video where he admits he's a fraud.
I think every single member of that sect, and every parent needs to be counseled and educated as to what abuse is, and what their fundamental human rights are.
You know, there's all this opposition to Texas doing a mass raid; however, does anyone really think they could have done one household at a time? With the dubious parentage, and the FLDS's habit of hiding? I think the second one family went to court, suddenly there would be a mass exodous of mothers and children from that compound. How could they track them then, with no names, hardly any identities, etc? It'd be impossible.
I really believe, that with the FLDS lifestyle, a mass raid was their only option.
Hopefully they'll have the courage to stand up to the Warren Jeffs' posse in court and give thorough testimonies. Hopefully they've been deprogrammed after being on the outside and seeing WJ's jailhouse video where he admits he's a fraud.
I think every single member of that sect, and every parent needs to be counseled and educated as to what abuse is, and what their fundamental human rights are.
You know, there's all this opposition to Texas doing a mass raid; however, does anyone really think they could have done one household at a time? With the dubious parentage, and the FLDS's habit of hiding? I think the second one family went to court, suddenly there would be a mass exodous of mothers and children from that compound. How could they track them then, with no names, hardly any identities, etc? It'd be impossible.
I really believe, that with the FLDS lifestyle, a mass raid was their only option.
Curious | 8:27 a.m. April 26, 2008
How did the state find enough good homes for these children so quickly,
isn't there a process to make sure that foster homes are safe? Exactly how
many underage girls are pregnant, I haven't seen any official numbers, just
alot of heresay.
Bow down... | 8:42 a.m. April 26, 2008
...To our tyrannical government.
This whole operation REALLY has me wondering
This whole operation REALLY has me wondering
justme | 8:55 a.m. April 26, 2008
Wow! What a mess. But I think Texas is doing the right thing. Since those
living at the compound were the elite, it's highly likely the children
living there would have been and were being subject(ed) to the abuse: the boys
being raised to be perpetrators and the girls being raised to be
child-producers. And even the very young children are being abused by living in
a culture where they witness this lifestyle. This must be sorted out and I feel
Texas is doing this in the most correct way possible.
VegasBaby | 8:57 a.m. April 26, 2008
I sure hope the forced out parents get their kids back.
Ruthann Waldoch | 9:11 a.m. April 26, 2008
If the Mothers were not considered the actual abusers of the children and were
themselves being abused, WHY take the little children away from them. Cannot
another way be found to house the children and their mothers together and
monitor them well enough so no more abuse can be done to any of them???? And
they can be taught how to live in the world without the sanction of their
religion as they have known it. I think there must be a better way to protect
them all rather than this very large separation. Loving hearts and great
understanding must be administered to them. This will be a very dificult time
for the little ones who maybe do not understand all the reasons behind their
loss of family.
Kim | 9:29 a.m. April 26, 2008
Thank you- those kids are getting away from the pedaphile cult camp- now go in
and get the men who did this!
Liz | 9:41 a.m. April 26, 2008
Thank you Texas! Now these children may have a much better life. This needed
to happen a long time ago.
TheMadNuker | 10:22 a.m. April 26, 2008
The Legislature of Texas needs to reign in the CPS
agency this year. If Govenor Perry does not call a
special assembly now, and address this travesty, then, both he and the legislature are guilty of
treason against a supposed free people. In addition
they look upon all of the people of Texas as cattle.
Texas Neighbor | 10:45 a.m. April 26, 2008
Ruthann, CPS has a concept called "failure to protect". They often
separate the children from the mother in cases where she was not the abuser, but
allowed the abuse to happen. In most cases she gets the children back by
promising to keep them away from the abuser. The forty women who did not go
back to the ranch have a better shot at getting their children back.
I Detest | 10:52 a.m. April 26, 2008
Texas did the right thing. The FLDS are a scary people if you know any of their
leaders personally.
I hope the children have chance for a life to think for themselves.
I hope the children have chance for a life to think for themselves.
That's Settled | 10:57 a.m. April 26, 2008
Now they can get on to the prosecution of bigamy.
Susan | 11:00 a.m. April 26, 2008
There are very clear rules by which CPS abides. Adults are not allowed to
sexually abuse children or to let children be abused. An adult who gives up her
underage daughter for sexual activity or an adult who allows a minor into her
home for sexual activity is supposed to prevent it or at least report it. This
didn't happen within the FLDS. Just because the women are brainwashed and
powerless doesn't take away their responsibility to report abuse. There are
criminals who came from environments which prevented them from functioning in
society. They are still held responsible for their actions. When CPS goes in and
finds a case of abuse within a home, all the children from that home are
removed. When the girl died of diabetes because her parents prayed but
didn't take her for treatment, her siblings were removed. Additionally, if
a family gives up a daughter for sex activity with an adult, children from that
home are removed as well. With so much apparent abuse, people lying about
relationships and moving between homes during the investigation CPS had to
remove all of the children. CPS can not treat FLDS better than everyone else.
The Right Thing | 11:04 a.m. April 26, 2008
Congrats to Texas...you are doing the right thing!
How else can the law get to the PURE EVIL old men who spiritually marry 13-17 girls just for personal pleasure except what they are doing? Let this thing play out and let justice next go after the dirty old men...I can tell you they're time is short and they're soon all going to go into hiding just like Jeffs...then will you continue to defend them? If you comment that this is just like Nazi Germany, you are sorely mistaken. The intent in this case is honorable and good...to give fellow human beings a chance at choice.
How else can the law get to the PURE EVIL old men who spiritually marry 13-17 girls just for personal pleasure except what they are doing? Let this thing play out and let justice next go after the dirty old men...I can tell you they're time is short and they're soon all going to go into hiding just like Jeffs...then will you continue to defend them? If you comment that this is just like Nazi Germany, you are sorely mistaken. The intent in this case is honorable and good...to give fellow human beings a chance at choice.
jim h | 11:04 a.m. April 26, 2008
I'm confused. How many under 16 year old girls are in custody and how many
of them are pregnant?
Seems like those old FLDS bulls should be able to cover these girls fairly well if that is truly their
church's teaching.
Seems like those old FLDS bulls should be able to cover these girls fairly well if that is truly their
church's teaching.
Anonymous | 11:14 a.m. April 26, 2008
There are TWO pregnant girls in custody (one is 17 and one is 16). There is a 30
year old woman that has a 16 year old son--she is the "pregnant 14 year
old". The dozens of pregnant minors are actually women who had children
when they were under 18 over a 10 year period. So the "15 year old
pregnant" girl is actually now a 25 year old woman with a 10 year old. I
believe there are 3 underage girls with infants. So a total of 5 minors (right
now) who are pregnant or have young children.
jim h | 11:36 a.m. April 26, 2008
Sounds like there are some individual cases that should be looked at. But if it
is church policy to impregnate girls under 16 there should be a higher rate of
pregnancy.
I would be curious if some inner city areas have a higher rate of under 16 intercourse, if so there may be some benefit in the government doing some sweeps through those neighborhoods.
I would be curious if some inner city areas have a higher rate of under 16 intercourse, if so there may be some benefit in the government doing some sweeps through those neighborhoods.
Delaval Milker | 11:47 a.m. April 26, 2008
Go texas. Whatever it takes to get rid of this scourge.
natejess | 12:38 p.m. April 26, 2008
The real story is that the number of Baptist baptisms have been declining in
recent years. I guess when they said they would be more aggressive in getting
converts, they weren't kidding.
Anonymous | 1:01 p.m. April 26, 2008
Honestly this is just a sad situation. Obvioulsy what the Flds are doing is
wrong, but taking away all of the children seems wrong too. Makes me sick
either way.
avengeance | 1:08 p.m. April 26, 2008
Everyone in Texas who cares that justice is served equally needs to do only one
thing: every time you see a girl that LOOKS less than 18 and LOOKS pregnant
(that includes the fructose fatties) it is your CIVIC DUTY to call CPS and
inform them that you suspect a minor has been raped and is being abused. Get
the local CPS number and keep it in your wallet / purse. Get license plates,
descriptions of the individuals, etc. If CPS wants to busy themselves up, then,
by gosh, it's up to you to fulfill their wish. By law, CPS must
investigate EVERY claim. As long as you "believe" that what
you're saying is true, you have committed no crime.
Re: Avengeance | 1:40 p.m. April 26, 2008
Unless you call anonymously... Then there is no crime, whether you believe it is
true or not.. You can make a fake phone call from a pay phone any day to CPS
about any family--even the innocent ones and have their lives ruined, children
taken, records permanently in place to prevent them from adopting, and debt
until they are dead due to legal fees to fight for their torn family. You can do
A LOT of damage with a CPS call (I am not talking about the truly warranted
ones, I am only responding to your post). If you are a healthcare provider or
teacher, etc., your post is actually true (unless you work for Planned
Parenthood). Sad days for many families. I actually am appalled at some poster
on gosanangelo who posted video clips of the FLDS children playing on a park.
They said "happy kids!" Sure..lots of fun. Wait until night hits-I bet
many were weeping for momma. I hope CPS lets the Moms do what CPS wants so they
can get their children. In their handbook, you can do everything they want and
still not get your children back.
Hey avengeance | 2:18 p.m. April 26, 2008
Is your perspective always so terribly off, or just when it comes to the FLDS?
If women have had children at a young age, and the young women appear pregnant,
there is JUSTIFICATION for suspicion. If men that were kicked out of the
community and had their wives and children reassigned and then moved to Texas,
that is against the law. The FLDS church, even though many believe religious
rights, cannot sanction parental kidnapping. That is what some of these women
were doing when they crossed the state borders with children and without the
knowledge of the fathers. That is also the reason why excommunicated men are
stepping forward to willingly receive DNA testing. Oh but then you likely
believe that the woman was only expressing her religious rights by running away
with children.
To ruthann | 2:21 p.m. April 26, 2008
The mothers were abusers when they allowed their daughters to "marry"
and receive the priesthood blessing of rape, statutory rape, and pregnancy. Who
exactly do you think told the church authorities that the girl had reached
puberty? The mothers are complicit and should be treated like all mothers that
are complicit in the abuse of minor children, regardless of whether or not that
woman is nursing an infant.
mothers | 2:27 p.m. April 26, 2008
I predict that these kids wont have any issues adjusting to the outside world,
or having new mommies. After all, they have a number already. They have already
been wrenched from their natural fathers. They have already been passed around
multiple families.
This is normal for them. Except now they have more choices.
This is normal for them. Except now they have more choices.
Bruce | 3:01 p.m. April 26, 2008
Now those poor deprived children will learn such values as watching filth on tv,
talking like black people, wearing revealing clothes, eating processed food,
getting attacked by other races, rap music, etc. Why they had no idea that day
care centers are supposed to raise children and mothers are supposed to go to
work to make s.u.v. payments. Way to go Texas. You are now officially a 3rd
world country. You must be proud.
Oregonian | 3:27 p.m. April 26, 2008
I would like to hear one intelligent comment about why they allowed nursing
babies up to 12 months old to stay with their mothers, but beginning at 13
months a bottle was stuck in their mouths and they were sent off to strangers.
Those hypocrital CPS workers could care less how much damage they're doing to those small children. If you Texans can't do any better than this maybe we need to give that country back to the Mexicans.
Those hypocrital CPS workers could care less how much damage they're doing to those small children. If you Texans can't do any better than this maybe we need to give that country back to the Mexicans.
A. Nony Mouse | 3:39 p.m. April 26, 2008
The children were taken away from the mothers because the mothers are enablers.
And by invoking Godwin's Law, "Not Safe for the children,"
you've already ended the discussion by saying that the State of Texas did
the right thing.
Tomorrow | 4:15 p.m. April 26, 2008
In Texas they think big and well they should when they write those checks for
abuse, criminal acts, among other things, by the CPS.
This is the best thing in a long time to come along for the Texas defense attorneys. No wonder they were lining up for a piece of the action. I guess the little children will end up with pretty much owning Texas when this gets to the Supreme Court and Texas has to pay up big time.
Go Texas!
I say Supreme Court because the Texas judges don't have a basis knowledge of US law.
Is Texas in the United States anyway?
This is the best thing in a long time to come along for the Texas defense attorneys. No wonder they were lining up for a piece of the action. I guess the little children will end up with pretty much owning Texas when this gets to the Supreme Court and Texas has to pay up big time.
Go Texas!
I say Supreme Court because the Texas judges don't have a basis knowledge of US law.
Is Texas in the United States anyway?
Zeezrom | 4:25 p.m. April 26, 2008
I agree with the action taken and find the arranged marriages of young girls to
OLD 'priesthood' leaders very tragic.The FLDS believe in the Prophet
Joseph Smith and Brigham Young who commenced this practice of coersing teen
girls into polygmous marriages with them and other very old Mormon leaders.They
were threatened with Hell for resisting and a ruined eternal life unless they
obeyed.Prety much what Warren Jeffs and the FLDS will be doing to their teen
girls.
Orson Pratt an LDS Apostle polygamously married a 16 year old at age 57 and concieved immediately with her.The FLDS are just continuing that system originally introduced by the LDS church.
Orson Pratt an LDS Apostle polygamously married a 16 year old at age 57 and concieved immediately with her.The FLDS are just continuing that system originally introduced by the LDS church.
avengeance | 4:29 p.m. April 26, 2008
to: "Hey avengeance"
All I'm suggesting is that everyone be treated the same, regardless of religion. Are you suggesting that one religion be persecuted? My suggestion is that we take the standards that CPS has set for us in their own words, and use them every day, until that worthless agency collapses under the weight of the burden it has made for itself. It is the only way to stop this abuse of power. The bigots and heathens must have their children taken as well, so they can understand how unjust CPS really is.
On the other hand, if you are suggesting that one specific religion be persecuted, let me assure you that not all of us "religious folk" are as passive and submissive as the FLDS. We don't all take so kindly to bigots stealing our children.
All I'm suggesting is that everyone be treated the same, regardless of religion. Are you suggesting that one religion be persecuted? My suggestion is that we take the standards that CPS has set for us in their own words, and use them every day, until that worthless agency collapses under the weight of the burden it has made for itself. It is the only way to stop this abuse of power. The bigots and heathens must have their children taken as well, so they can understand how unjust CPS really is.
On the other hand, if you are suggesting that one specific religion be persecuted, let me assure you that not all of us "religious folk" are as passive and submissive as the FLDS. We don't all take so kindly to bigots stealing our children.
DC | 4:41 p.m. April 26, 2008
To: Susan 11:00AM
You are absolutely right, there are two points here. Most of these posts have been about how the Texas CPS seems out to break the FLDS religion far more than to protect children, which certainly appears to be true. But your post notes that Texas CPS can and has done this sort of storm-trooping in all sorts of cases. For some reason you seem to think that makes it all right, but what most people would think is that it means Texas CPS has simply gotten used to abusing rights, tearing up families, and ignoring any sort of due process in order to effect their private notions of what is "best' and has simply taken it to the logical conclusion with this military raid on an entire religion. I hope that part of the outcome here is not merely that the FLDS get significant damages for the bigoted actions of these backwoods Baptists, but also that the general practices of Texas CPS are reformed to eliminate the bullying and trampling of the rights of all parents, not just the FLDS.
You are absolutely right, there are two points here. Most of these posts have been about how the Texas CPS seems out to break the FLDS religion far more than to protect children, which certainly appears to be true. But your post notes that Texas CPS can and has done this sort of storm-trooping in all sorts of cases. For some reason you seem to think that makes it all right, but what most people would think is that it means Texas CPS has simply gotten used to abusing rights, tearing up families, and ignoring any sort of due process in order to effect their private notions of what is "best' and has simply taken it to the logical conclusion with this military raid on an entire religion. I hope that part of the outcome here is not merely that the FLDS get significant damages for the bigoted actions of these backwoods Baptists, but also that the general practices of Texas CPS are reformed to eliminate the bullying and trampling of the rights of all parents, not just the FLDS.
Looking forward | 4:44 p.m. April 26, 2008
I'm looking forward to the huge, break texas' back civil rights
lawsuit. women are being held against their will? Please. the 40 that went to
shelters. Could they have been told they stand a better chance of getting their
kids back? I'd go to a shelter if I was told that.
I've had foster kids. They don't adust with the wind.
I've had foster kids. They don't adust with the wind.
susan | 4:50 p.m. April 26, 2008
I'm LDS and I don't think plural marriage was ever right!!!!I'm
so happy that TX did the right thing and got these children out of the compound.
Anonymous | 4:53 p.m. April 26, 2008
Tomorrow:
I don't think Texans have enough money to write checks for whats coming. Attorneys charge about $200 an hour and I can't even add that many zeros for 500-600 kids and mothers, plus over $500 a month per child for foster care. Then a few months from now the gazillion dollar lawsuits against CPS will start.
Don't know if Texas is part of the U.S. or not. This is so stupid, I don't think they are.
I don't think Texans have enough money to write checks for whats coming. Attorneys charge about $200 an hour and I can't even add that many zeros for 500-600 kids and mothers, plus over $500 a month per child for foster care. Then a few months from now the gazillion dollar lawsuits against CPS will start.
Don't know if Texas is part of the U.S. or not. This is so stupid, I don't think they are.
captive flds children dot org | 5:14 p.m. April 26, 2008
Have you looked at this site? The woman asking for the search warrant
didn't sound brain washed to me. She had legitimate questions and the
police didn't answer her. I think the gov had this planned a long time ago,
they want to make an end of the peculiar people among them. Why not educate the
women with the children instead of ripping them apart? Let them have a different
religion but educate about the law. This Iraq style kidnapping is traumatic for
the children. My children watched and got scared it could happen to them and it
really could. There seems to be no law abiding gov here. I better never speak my
mind, my neighbor could turn me in just to pay me back. What is this Nation
coming to? No better than Iraq or Afghanistan!
OregonPioneer | 5:14 p.m. April 26, 2008
This is for all of you who are criticizing the State of Texas for its actions,
and nit-picking over the legality of this and that: At least Texas had the guts
to go in and do something. What should they have done? Ignore the reports and
evidence of abuse/ neglect/ molestation? Like the way Utah has ignored the mess
down in Hildale for DECADES???
It's time for Utah to get a spine and deal with the mess in their own backyard instead of arm-chair quarterback the whole operation down in Eldorado.
It's time for Utah to get a spine and deal with the mess in their own backyard instead of arm-chair quarterback the whole operation down in Eldorado.
wcoc103 | 5:22 p.m. April 26, 2008
Learning the truth-You can be assured that without heavy public pressure, we
will not be told the truth about all this. We have the press quoting the CPS and
TX law, different sources report alittle differently, but the story remains the
same. The CPS HAS NOT been honest in this nor will they be.
The intent of the state is clear-even without clear counts of children, they continue to move forward, With 350 lawyers filing motions that aren't even heard, they continue to move forward. This has to be intended to destroy a religion.
The intent of the state is clear-even without clear counts of children, they continue to move forward, With 350 lawyers filing motions that aren't even heard, they continue to move forward. This has to be intended to destroy a religion.
hmmmmmm | 6:07 p.m. April 26, 2008
Civil lawsuit wont matter by the time they get DNA
and files charges of rape and child abuse and welfare fraud the civil suit will be water under a long bridge
and files charges of rape and child abuse and welfare fraud the civil suit will be water under a long bridge
ann new mexico | 6:19 p.m. April 26, 2008
i,m lds not flds i comend texas for protecting these children these men are
nothing but pedifiles and the adult women are enablers. it seems like the women
don.t have an original thought. their constantly surrounded by other wives they
know they cannot object to any treatment their children have to endure or suffer
the consequences. i hope utah,arizona and colorado finally stand up and protect
these children from this abuse thats been going on for generations.the federal
and state goverments need to stop funding this type of lifestyle that promotes
child abuse.
MIND CONTROL | 6:21 p.m. April 26, 2008
Anyone that makes a religion into a prison, and keep others from using their own
will, mind and to think for ones self, cannot possibly in anyway be connected to
a righteous God. Slavery was abolished, and now they need to abolish these cults
who control others with their evil mind controlling baloney!
a non mormon | 6:32 p.m. April 26, 2008
It seems the most logical foster care, from a cultural point of view, would be
sponsored by the LDS church. Utah Mormons should step up to the plate. This is
a serious matter, and deserves the attention of the church and its wise elders.
The Church would probably be the most understanding in helping these children
adjust, since polygamy is in its history. After all, don't you take care
of your own?
Hypothetical... | 6:46 p.m. April 26, 2008
Just thinking ahead. Say Texas decides to keep the kids. The parents go back to
the ranch. There's still women of child-bearing age. One year from now,
there will be more kids there, some over 12 months old. Assuming the CPS still
feels the same way about the religion then, that next batch of kids will also
need to be removed from their parents.
CPS will have no choice in the matter. The raid is going to have to be an annual event, until the FLDS religion is destroyed.
CPS will have no choice in the matter. The raid is going to have to be an annual event, until the FLDS religion is destroyed.
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I heard all the sirens, and actually drove through there not five minutes...
I am a big BYU fan and will support them always, but as far as Max Hall and...
How are they not as loaded as they were in football? 6 of the 7 teams are...
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I've read of numerous reports of children in Child Protective Services (CPS) being raped, molested, and even killed. The government has a vested service in having a many children under their care as possible, since the CPS workers are paid per child under their supervision. I remember this was a common tactic of Nazi Germany, when anyone wasn't under government control or toeing the line. It appears that the "victim", was a black woman who had made numerous fraudulent calls from Colorado. That being the case the probable cause for the raid is without merit. CPS may not agree the life style of the FLDS, but isn't a reason to kidnap hundreds of children. It would be better to handled, each case of abuse on a case by case basis. Once is has been proven.