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Number of children in Texas custody rises — some young mothers are actually under 18
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Buses to Freedom | 10:25 a.m. April 24, 2008
Hopefully, this will be the first step to freedom for these kids. Either the
FLDS will reform their ways and stop abusing their kids through forced
marriages, or the kids will be given an opportunity to see the outside world
and, for the first time in their lives, be able to make an informed decision on
whether to return to the FLDS lifestyle.
Jeff | 10:54 a.m. April 24, 2008
A government that is big enough to give you everything you want, is big enough
to take everything that you have.
Thomas Jefferson
Thomas Jefferson
Comments continue below
HD | 10:55 a.m. April 24, 2008
We all understand that this situation is difficult at best to understand and
manage. There is a very simple solution to this mess and it requires the adults
of the FLDS to come forward and honestly answer questions that the State of
Texas has regarding family relationships. They (FLDS)are the reason this
situation keeps getting worse. If the welfare of the children is their most
important issue then why don't they do the right thing and help to clarify
the issues of which kids belong to which set of parents. The DNA tests will
shortly clarify this.
Anyone find it weird | 11:01 a.m. April 24, 2008
That these women are smiling as they yell and hold up signs? Guess that
"keep sweet" still rings true.
This is messed up | 11:01 a.m. April 24, 2008
bless the beast and the children because in this world...they have no choice!
Chris McLeod in Texas | 11:05 a.m. April 24, 2008
Its funny that the best "The Desert News" is the only reliable place
to keep informed of this story. The Texas papers are selective in their
reporting. The biggest problem here in texas is that The FLDS believers are
both different and White. Humans have always attacted those who they felt were
different, and the only group that is politically correct to discriminate is the
caucasians. I do think that arranged marriages between adults and children is
abhorant, but I am not too slow to understand that this is not the case for all
400+ kids. The first goal should be to safely reunite the eldorado 400 with
their mothers, then perform a fair investigation and charge aleged law breakers.
This is so very shameful.
What Justice? | 11:17 a.m. April 24, 2008
What good are all the lawyers if the Judge refuses to listen to any of them or
to process their legal pleas?
Forget the children for a minute as they will come through this. Heaven help America.
Forget the children for a minute as they will come through this. Heaven help America.
Fredd | 11:28 a.m. April 24, 2008
This is exactly the right thing to do. Join a cult that ivoluntarily marries
the youth into polygamous relationships and lose your children. I have a hard
time seeing why anyone objects.
masked_data | 11:29 a.m. April 24, 2008
I wonder how many Lost Boys have seen their loving family members on TV?
avengeance | 11:34 a.m. April 24, 2008
Adolf Hitler (I think he needs no introduction to the reader) said it very well,
in this quote:
"When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side.' I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already� What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.'"
How many times must history repeat itself?
"When an opponent declares, 'I will not come over to your side.' I calmly say, 'Your child belongs to us already� What are you? You will pass on. Your descendants, however, now stand in the new camp. In a short time they will know nothing else but this new community.'"
How many times must history repeat itself?
Where are the boys? | 11:34 a.m. April 24, 2008
It's interesting that with over 400 kids in protective custody, there were
less than 50 boys sent to the boys ranch.
The FLDS Church recently excommunicated over 400 teenage boys, some as young as 13, for offenses such as dating and listening to rock music. The real reason for these excommunications is that there are not enough women for each FLDS male to receive three or more wives.
The boys were just as at risk of abuse as the girls, it was just a different type of abuse, being abandoned simply because they were competition for the older men.
The FLDS Church recently excommunicated over 400 teenage boys, some as young as 13, for offenses such as dating and listening to rock music. The real reason for these excommunications is that there are not enough women for each FLDS male to receive three or more wives.
The boys were just as at risk of abuse as the girls, it was just a different type of abuse, being abandoned simply because they were competition for the older men.
Anonymous | 11:41 a.m. April 24, 2008
Enter comment.
Anonymous | 11:42 a.m. April 24, 2008
Add your comment
transplant | 11:43 a.m. April 24, 2008
Again and again and again. This "case" is not based on a call, a
bogus call, or any other type call. It's based on what the officers
discovered when arriving on the ranch plus the refusal of the parents to
identify their own children. Sex trafficing and 'white' slavery
trafficking,child trafficing all go on because of the lack of intervention by
the authorities. These children could have been kidnapped for all the above.
The officers had no way of knowing whose children they were. DNA will tell us
that.
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 11:44 a.m. April 24, 2008
The judge admits she is overwhelmed, that she cannot do her job properly because
of the number of children and parents involved. Yet she has done the very worst
thing, defaulting to taking babies away from mothers, something that can cause
permanent emotional and psychological damage to young children. Nothing that
was going to happen to those children in the first twelve years of their lives
would be as abusive as being ripped from their mothers and being manhandled by a
bunch of hostile strangers who are telling them their parents are criminals.
How is this in the best interest of these children?
There was in fact NO imminent harm to any of the children, except possibly to the actual child brides and other girls in the same age range. Only those should have been taken into state custody. The rest of the children are being punished just for association with the real criminals, the men. The authorities claim the mothers and children are helpless victims, yet they are victimizing them even further. They are teaching the children that the T in Texas stands for Tyranny.
There was in fact NO imminent harm to any of the children, except possibly to the actual child brides and other girls in the same age range. Only those should have been taken into state custody. The rest of the children are being punished just for association with the real criminals, the men. The authorities claim the mothers and children are helpless victims, yet they are victimizing them even further. They are teaching the children that the T in Texas stands for Tyranny.
Sandy & Family | 11:44 a.m. April 24, 2008
This is just WRONG!!!!!Those people are trying to stay the way they claim(loving
& peaceful)!!!!!!Maybe we who claim to be christians ought to take a
hint.This is such an injustice to those families.I am not in a plural marriage
family with more than one mom and dad,but my children have a step-dad &
step-mom so I guess that means they can take our children because they will be
confused of their identity.This truck needs to get backed up now!!!!Wake up
America because this could happen to you over your beliefs and customs!!!Texas
has torn these childrens and their parents lives apart.Our hearts and prayers go
out to them everyday.As far as the abuse allegation it has not been proven and
they can do the same to you and your family!!!Look past your judgemental walls
and look at the reality of all of this.God did say "Do unto others as you
would have done unto you."
Appeal | 11:44 a.m. April 24, 2008
At least it will be heard by tuesday by the appeals court why they can not rule
on the motions sooner is to bad.
Lets hope they rule in the mothers favor on Tuesday or all parents in Txas are in danger. Teenage mothers all over Texas look out we will take you from your parents and after your children are 12 months old we will put them in foster care.
After that we will go into every home in America and make sure all parents are raising the children the way the CPS sees fit
Lets hope they rule in the mothers favor on Tuesday or all parents in Txas are in danger. Teenage mothers all over Texas look out we will take you from your parents and after your children are 12 months old we will put them in foster care.
After that we will go into every home in America and make sure all parents are raising the children the way the CPS sees fit
Sugar Momma | 11:52 a.m. April 24, 2008
I was objective before, but the more I learn about Warren Jeffs and Merril
Jessop, the more I'm feeling that Texas is doing the right thing,
considering that YFZ is their followers.
A lot of those children might not have either biological parent even at YFZ. Remember that Jeffs was filling the compound with hand-picked children ages 6 and under.
According to those who have escaped, a lot of those women have been separated from their initial husbands and been reassigned to other men. I believe the reason they don't ever mention the fathers in these interviews is that the biological fathers are off somewhere in St. George "repenting from afar," because they were kicked out.
YFZ is the US Taliban. They still follow Warren Jeffs. They are anti-education. How much do you think you could learn from any of the women who have been interviewed? Have you heard them speak? They're like simpletons with no sense of self or independent thought. I'm still convinced that when the educational assessments of the children come back, it will show that the children are far behind where they should be.
And yes, Deseret News gives the best coverage on this.
A lot of those children might not have either biological parent even at YFZ. Remember that Jeffs was filling the compound with hand-picked children ages 6 and under.
According to those who have escaped, a lot of those women have been separated from their initial husbands and been reassigned to other men. I believe the reason they don't ever mention the fathers in these interviews is that the biological fathers are off somewhere in St. George "repenting from afar," because they were kicked out.
YFZ is the US Taliban. They still follow Warren Jeffs. They are anti-education. How much do you think you could learn from any of the women who have been interviewed? Have you heard them speak? They're like simpletons with no sense of self or independent thought. I'm still convinced that when the educational assessments of the children come back, it will show that the children are far behind where they should be.
And yes, Deseret News gives the best coverage on this.
CD | 11:52 a.m. April 24, 2008
"A spokesman for the FLDS Church told the Deseret News he fears that
authorities are using the DNA to build criminal cases against members."
What do you FLDS people have to fear?! Maybe the proven guilty part??!!!
What do you FLDS people have to fear?! Maybe the proven guilty part??!!!
deb | 11:53 a.m. April 24, 2008
Would everyone give the "lost boys" a rest. This case in Texas has
NEVER alleged that any boys had been excommunicated from the YFZ ranch. If we
are discussing this incident, then keep to the facts presented for this case.
And by the way Amish and Mennonite(old order)groups excommunicate or shun
members as well when they do not follow church rules.
CD | 12:01 p.m. April 24, 2008
How in the world can they place ALL siblings together??!!! 30-50 half brothers
and sisters??!!! Crazy request!!!
Abusive Texas | 12:11 p.m. April 24, 2008
What an absolute abuse of power. If Texas appellate courts don't get it
right, I would make an emergency petition to the United States Supreme Court.
This is deserving of a temporary injunction order immediately. Just who is more
abusive, Texas or the these mothers who are suppose to teach and train their
kids as they see fit?
Re: Deb | 12:16 p.m. April 24, 2008
The mennonite and amish don't throw their teenagers to the side of the road
to fend for themselves.
Re: deb | 12:20 p.m. April 24, 2008
This case is all about child abuse.
Since the YFZ Ranch is controlled by the same men who control Hilldale and Colorado City, how kids are treated in Utah and Arizona has a direct correlation to how kids are treated at YFZ. If Warren Jeffs can boot kids out of Colorado City, force young girls to marry old men in Hilldale, and reassign women to new husbands anywhere he chooses, he can do the same thing in Texas. The FLDS in Texas follow the same marching orders.
Since the YFZ Ranch is controlled by the same men who control Hilldale and Colorado City, how kids are treated in Utah and Arizona has a direct correlation to how kids are treated at YFZ. If Warren Jeffs can boot kids out of Colorado City, force young girls to marry old men in Hilldale, and reassign women to new husbands anywhere he chooses, he can do the same thing in Texas. The FLDS in Texas follow the same marching orders.
Joe | 12:22 p.m. April 24, 2008
It dosnt make much sense to take the children and mothers from the ranch, when
you could have taken 150 or so criminals (the men) and left the mothers and
children in a safe and healthy enviroment.
deb | 12:22 p.m. April 24, 2008
Neither did the FLDS from the YFZ ranch!!!!!!
ACLU? | 12:22 p.m. April 24, 2008
ACLU where are you? 400+ children have been taken away, the state of Texas has
threatened to put peoples children up for adoption. Nursing mothers and babies
have been separated.
All for a hoax and the fact that some of their neighboors are breaking the law.
You are willing to defend Nazis. Why not FLDS?
All for a hoax and the fact that some of their neighboors are breaking the law.
You are willing to defend Nazis. Why not FLDS?
anonymous | 12:35 p.m. April 24, 2008
I cannot believe there are people on here in support of the FLDS. All you have
to do is read just a little bit about the abuses perpertrated by FLDS men to
know that no children, of any age are safe around them. Flagrant incest, forced
marriages and no one to protect the kids. Calling something a religion
doesn't give you the right to violate other people's rights, i.e. the
rights of women and children. These men treat women and children as so much
livestock, traded back and forth on the whim of a self-proclaimed prophet. The
real outrage should be why didn't they do something earlier.
Phil | 12:39 p.m. April 24, 2008
The women and children are smiling because they are seeing their loves ones as
they are being hauled off. Is that weird?
lost in DC | 12:38 p.m. April 24, 2008
Why is this article in the Utah section? It happended in Texas. Yes, the
people involved have ties to a few people in southern Utah, but you don't
publish articles in the Utah section about every Mormon who does something
newsworthy in Virginia ro Wisconsin.
When the owner of this newspaper issues statements refuting the Texas judge's comments about similarities between the LDS and FLDS, the DN should not support that confusion by listing Texas stories in the Utah section.
When the owner of this newspaper issues statements refuting the Texas judge's comments about similarities between the LDS and FLDS, the DN should not support that confusion by listing Texas stories in the Utah section.
Re: Re: Deb | 12:41 p.m. April 24, 2008
Are you sure? I have met apostate banished amish before in northern new york.
hmmmmmmmm | 12:46 p.m. April 24, 2008
I am just flabbergasted at reading some of the post here.. You people crying
foul about Texas..
If police went in that ranch looking for one girl
didnt find her and left and said well we search the ranch up and down and we didnt find Sarah but found
possible 30 or more pregnant mothers or already with child under age you all would be screaming at teh top of your lungs that texas didnt do anything to protect those kids.. let the system try to work
If Texas screwed up we will all know soon enough
but also ask yourself why are not all these parents rushing to give DNA they say there worried it will be used in criminal trial.. well why woul dthey think that is they hadnt been doing anything wrong?
when all said and done we may found out that even the older woman has given birth when they were underage
If police went in that ranch looking for one girl
didnt find her and left and said well we search the ranch up and down and we didnt find Sarah but found
possible 30 or more pregnant mothers or already with child under age you all would be screaming at teh top of your lungs that texas didnt do anything to protect those kids.. let the system try to work
If Texas screwed up we will all know soon enough
but also ask yourself why are not all these parents rushing to give DNA they say there worried it will be used in criminal trial.. well why woul dthey think that is they hadnt been doing anything wrong?
when all said and done we may found out that even the older woman has given birth when they were underage
wrz | 12:47 p.m. April 24, 2008
>>How can then take these 2 and 3 year olds away from their mothers and
think that it is good for the kids?<<
How can they do this, you asked?
Have you not heard of the Japanese internment during WWII?
How can they do this, you asked?
Have you not heard of the Japanese internment during WWII?
Re: Deb | 12:49 p.m. April 24, 2008
The only difference between FLDS and the Amish is the Amish actually get to
choose to live the religion or not at 18. Shunning is not common anymore,
according to some research.
Thousands of teen FLDS boys have been thrown out. You don't hear about that in the Amish community.
Thousands of teen FLDS boys have been thrown out. You don't hear about that in the Amish community.
Re: lost in DC | 12:50 p.m. April 24, 2008
Get a grip! It's listed in the Utah section because LOTS of people from
Utah are interested in the story.
The owner of the DN is free to publish whatever stories in whatever section the owner sees fit. It's called freedom of the press. It's mentioned somewhere in the U.S. Constitution.
Read a different newspaper if you don't like it.
The owner of the DN is free to publish whatever stories in whatever section the owner sees fit. It's called freedom of the press. It's mentioned somewhere in the U.S. Constitution.
Read a different newspaper if you don't like it.
Re:Phil | 12:50 p.m. April 24, 2008
I would expect a mom to be a little more upset if their kids were shipped off to
a foster homes. I just find the reaction, strange.
hmm | 12:53 p.m. April 24, 2008
the reason this newspaper is covering the case so much is the FLDS ranches along
there borders
they are feeding the members living in arizona and utah and also Warren Jeffs
they are feeding the members living in arizona and utah and also Warren Jeffs
wrz | 12:54 p.m. April 24, 2008
>>If the welfare of the children is their most important issue then why
don't they do the right thing and help to clarify the issues of which kids
belong to which set of parents. >The DNA tests will shortly clarify
this.<<
The DNA test is a invasion of privacy and a violation of constitutional rights.
If Texas wants to know which kids belong to whom, all they need do is to return them all to their homes and they will sort it out. Demanding DNA tests is nothing more or less than trying to gather incriminating evidence. No one has to "testify" (i.e., provide incriminating evidence) against themselves.
The DNA test is a invasion of privacy and a violation of constitutional rights.
If Texas wants to know which kids belong to whom, all they need do is to return them all to their homes and they will sort it out. Demanding DNA tests is nothing more or less than trying to gather incriminating evidence. No one has to "testify" (i.e., provide incriminating evidence) against themselves.
re:wrz | 1:02 p.m. April 24, 2008
"If Texas wants to know which kids belong to whom, all they need do is to
return them to their homes and they sort it out" I can't believe that
Texas has not thought of that. They can just peek in the windows at night and
see which underage girls are living with which Old Man..You Can Not Be Serious!
THE ACLU | 1:06 p.m. April 24, 2008
I am sure the ACLU is involved in this according to a news article I read. The
article had the ACLU attorneys name and his comment on their position on the
case.
Wish I would have saved the article.
The attorney stated he was the ACLU has always been for child rights but feel TEXASS has cross the lines on our freedom.
Wish I would have saved the article.
The attorney stated he was the ACLU has always been for child rights but feel TEXASS has cross the lines on our freedom.
AnnaLiisa | 1:11 p.m. April 24, 2008
Take the men. Leave the women and children. You said men are the problem. Women
outnumber the men.
Ray | 1:14 p.m. April 24, 2008
I want to thank this paper for doing one the best job of covering this horror
story.
I do wish they would do a little more research on the flaws of the CPS and its poor history of placing children in foster homes .
I do wish they would do a little more research on the flaws of the CPS and its poor history of placing children in foster homes .
Overwhelmed judge | 1:15 p.m. April 24, 2008
I don't understand why there is only one judge on this. It is clear she is
overwhelmed with the size of the case.
If there is anyone on the blogs that can explain why these cases haven't been separated out, I would like to hear it. Maybe the DNA testing is so they can do that, but I would like to hear a logical explanation.
If there is anyone on the blogs that can explain why these cases haven't been separated out, I would like to hear it. Maybe the DNA testing is so they can do that, but I would like to hear a logical explanation.
It Figures | 1:40 p.m. April 24, 2008
Return all the kids or keep in state custody? Typical CPS tactic. In reality,
there is more than just two choices here. There are many choices and many
options. Interview each child individually take into custody only those that
allege abuse and investigate the allege perpetrator. Return the rest. Maintain
case worker home visits, etc. I don�t see how state custody
can be justified based on some imaginary event that might occur in the future.
The �know all�,
�do all� CPS
entity�s M.O. is based on speculation, intimidation, and
trumped up charges - tools of lower courts that operate outside the
constitution. A surgical type operation would have been much more effective and
appropriate rather than a shot gun type of operation.
UT Paper on TX Incidents? | 1:45 p.m. April 24, 2008
I agree with Lost in DC. The LDS Church has gone to great lengths to separate
itself from the polygomy issue. Yet, its own paper has a more in depth
reporting than any other paper in the country. Its website even has a large,
graphic link to a special section on all its stories--a graphic that is larger
than the link to the Church News! It appears that the DesNews has several
reporters in Texas reporting on this.
Looking at this objectively, I think it's more than a little hypocritical (and certainly myopic) for us in the LDS Church to be critical of others (particularly in the media) for inaccurately lumping the FLDS and other polygomist groups as "Mormons." Given the prominence of the DesNews on this event, can we blame them for making that mistake?
We've heard much talk lately about our obligation as members of the LDS Church to take opportunities to quell misconceptions about our Church. Just this past weekend, I attended an event where Elder Ballard spoke on this very subject. If this is the case, why are we working aginst ourselves on this effort?
As one who lives outside Utah, I find this very frustrating.
Looking at this objectively, I think it's more than a little hypocritical (and certainly myopic) for us in the LDS Church to be critical of others (particularly in the media) for inaccurately lumping the FLDS and other polygomist groups as "Mormons." Given the prominence of the DesNews on this event, can we blame them for making that mistake?
We've heard much talk lately about our obligation as members of the LDS Church to take opportunities to quell misconceptions about our Church. Just this past weekend, I attended an event where Elder Ballard spoke on this very subject. If this is the case, why are we working aginst ourselves on this effort?
As one who lives outside Utah, I find this very frustrating.
Texas Neighbor | 1:45 p.m. April 24, 2008
Overwhelmed Judge, the reason the cases are all in this court is that this
court is the only one with jurisdiction in this five county area. The
population in that part of Texas is so sparse they don't have duplicate
courts like they do in the cities.
Anonymous | 1:47 p.m. April 24, 2008
MICHELLE ROBERTS, AP writer, writes in yahoo article
"Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.
But her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS � to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs � amount to abuse."
Will other religious families be next? Many religions encourage their young people not to put off marriage, have many children, and obey church leaders. Is this also abuse Ms. Voss?
Michelle Roberts also writes:
"Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor, said courts have generally held that a parent's belief system cannot, in itself, justify a child's removal. He said, for example, that a parent might teach his child that smoking marijuana is acceptable, but only when he helps the child buy pot does he cross the line.
"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't" take the children, Volokh said.
Let's hope the TX appeals court at least releases the FLDS prepubescent children.
"Under cross-examination, state child-welfare investigator Angie Voss conceded there have been no allegations of abuse against babies, prepubescent girls or any boys.
But her agency, Child Protective Services, contends that the teachings of the FLDS � to marry shortly after puberty, have as many children as possible and obey their fathers or their prophet, imprisoned leader Warren Jeffs � amount to abuse."
Will other religious families be next? Many religions encourage their young people not to put off marriage, have many children, and obey church leaders. Is this also abuse Ms. Voss?
Michelle Roberts also writes:
"Eugene Volokh, a UCLA law professor, said courts have generally held that a parent's belief system cannot, in itself, justify a child's removal. He said, for example, that a parent might teach his child that smoking marijuana is acceptable, but only when he helps the child buy pot does he cross the line.
"The general view of the legal system is until there is an imminent risk of harm or actual harm, you can't" take the children, Volokh said.
Let's hope the TX appeals court at least releases the FLDS prepubescent children.
Willy Steele | 1:52 p.m. April 24, 2008
Clearly most comments here are biased, ignorant, petty, self serving and not
Christian. Its irrelevant what you all think of the FLDS or their lifestyle.
Thats why we have a Constitution governing the actions of the State. Stop
watching FOX news and start educating yourself by studying the law that keeps
government out of our business. When the State comes for you, your children or
grandchildren then lets see where your sympathies lay.
Moses | 1:53 p.m. April 24, 2008
Willie Jessop comment " do unto others as you would have them do to
you" Willie was the big enforcer for WJ in serving men with notice to
vacate from their families . serves him right to have the same happen to him.
Remember the Pharoh of Egypt declared the destruction of 1st born? His first
born was among the first to go. It's only fitting to see Warrens judgement
bounce right to hit him and his thugs. Start to practice that little statement
Willie. do unto others.
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How can then take these 2 and 3 year olds away from thier mothers and think that it is good for the kids?
This situation should scare everyone in America!