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Judge in FLDS case peppers CPS with questions
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Dumb Cajun | 4:16 p.m. April 23, 2008
If these men have run off to Canada the Mounties will get'm, if they have
gone to Mexico, the drug dealers will get'm. I would guess that they are
hiding out in the hills in Utah and Nevada; at least they won't be able to
claim their ill-gotten money unless they surface to face the music.
To Just Asking | 4:21 p.m. April 23, 2008
Only if twins marry twins would the DNA be the same.
If brothers (as you said) such as Bob and Bill married Mary and Martha (who were not twins-either set) their DNA would not be the same.
But if Jimmy and Jason(twin brothers) married Kimmy and Karen (twin sisters) their DNA would be the same.
Conclusion: Jimmy and Jason have identical DNA if they are identical twins. Same as Kimmy and Karen.
Final Conclusion: If Jimmy and Jason are Fraternal Twins as much as Kimmy and Karen are, their DNA would not match any more than siblings marrying siblings. LEGALLY!
Hope this helps.
If brothers (as you said) such as Bob and Bill married Mary and Martha (who were not twins-either set) their DNA would not be the same.
But if Jimmy and Jason(twin brothers) married Kimmy and Karen (twin sisters) their DNA would be the same.
Conclusion: Jimmy and Jason have identical DNA if they are identical twins. Same as Kimmy and Karen.
Final Conclusion: If Jimmy and Jason are Fraternal Twins as much as Kimmy and Karen are, their DNA would not match any more than siblings marrying siblings. LEGALLY!
Hope this helps.
Mink | 5:01 p.m. April 23, 2008
Does anyone actually think today's courts would uphold the anti-polygamy
laws, if challenged? They would uphold Utah's child bigamy law, but
stopping unofficial polygamous relationships between consenting adults? They
won't allow criminal prosecution for adultery, something that almost every
state had laws forbidding until modern times.
Under the equal protection clause, consenting adult polygamists could argue they are being singled out, while other alduterers are not prosecuted, particularly under the current approach used by the FLDS to only legally marry one wife. Prosecuting the FLDS for polygamy is a real can of worms.
That's what makes Utah's child bigamy law such a bold stroke. It allows a direct way to force those who choose polygamy to keep it among consenting adults. Why do you think the fanatical leadership moved to Texas?
Under the equal protection clause, consenting adult polygamists could argue they are being singled out, while other alduterers are not prosecuted, particularly under the current approach used by the FLDS to only legally marry one wife. Prosecuting the FLDS for polygamy is a real can of worms.
That's what makes Utah's child bigamy law such a bold stroke. It allows a direct way to force those who choose polygamy to keep it among consenting adults. Why do you think the fanatical leadership moved to Texas?
Comments continue below
Ironic Mike | 5:04 p.m. April 23, 2008
Is it ironic to anyone else that it's the women and children being punished
here when it's mainly the men who are guilty? I know that the polygamist
men are not the only guilty party, but why aren't they being punished? Why
didn't the FBI go in and arrest the men? Instead, the went in and
"arrested" the children and now they're being shipped away. Why
isn't that issue being addressed?
Why couldn't the FBI have raided the ranch, arrested the men, taken permanent control of the ranch, but allowed the women and children to stay in their homes? While I don't agree at all with the plural wives doctrine, this is bad for Texas. Very bad. This could have been managed much better. Go after the men first and prosecute.
Why couldn't the FBI have raided the ranch, arrested the men, taken permanent control of the ranch, but allowed the women and children to stay in their homes? While I don't agree at all with the plural wives doctrine, this is bad for Texas. Very bad. This could have been managed much better. Go after the men first and prosecute.
Sugar Momma | 5:27 p.m. April 23, 2008
So they're going to assess the educational levels of the children?
That'll open up a whole new can of worms for YFZ, when they find out that they're all years behind where they should be academically. One more crime to YFZ's list is not educating its children.
If they did educational assessments of the adults, I think the results would make me sick to my stomach.
It makes me crazy that they've turned their women into sheep. That sect is like the Taliban, man. Just a bunch of mindless drones.
My grandma was from a polygamist family, but she had choices and freedom. She grew up in Salt Lake. She left that lifestyle with no resistance. Totally different experience.
That'll open up a whole new can of worms for YFZ, when they find out that they're all years behind where they should be academically. One more crime to YFZ's list is not educating its children.
If they did educational assessments of the adults, I think the results would make me sick to my stomach.
It makes me crazy that they've turned their women into sheep. That sect is like the Taliban, man. Just a bunch of mindless drones.
My grandma was from a polygamist family, but she had choices and freedom. She grew up in Salt Lake. She left that lifestyle with no resistance. Totally different experience.
Contrarian | 5:43 p.m. April 23, 2008
How many of you who applaud the Texas CPS know that the laws setting age of
consent and the definition of incest were changed recently to specifically
target the FLDS?
Polygamy laws refer to legal marriage, and I would be surprised if the FLDS have any members who are legally married to more than one woman. The country abounds with married men who impregnate teenage girls and either abandon them or arrange for an abortion and no one bats an eye. No one takes the children of mothers whose daughter has become pregnant in such circumstances. No one requires DNA tests to determine who the father is so he can be charged with rape.
Now we are watching as children, whose innocence has been protected from a society steeped in sex, are taken from that protected environment to swim in a sea of debauchery.
Polygamy laws refer to legal marriage, and I would be surprised if the FLDS have any members who are legally married to more than one woman. The country abounds with married men who impregnate teenage girls and either abandon them or arrange for an abortion and no one bats an eye. No one takes the children of mothers whose daughter has become pregnant in such circumstances. No one requires DNA tests to determine who the father is so he can be charged with rape.
Now we are watching as children, whose innocence has been protected from a society steeped in sex, are taken from that protected environment to swim in a sea of debauchery.
To Sugar Momma | 5:47 p.m. April 23, 2008
It was stated in the orientation sheet given to foster care families that these
children are academically advanced and superior to mainstream children of the
same age. That is to be expected since they have been home-schooled and
haven't had the intrustion of television and video games.
Hey Sugar Momma | 5:56 p.m. April 23, 2008
Today, Judge Walther ruled that the children will remain in home schooling.
There were several arguments for this, one of which is that many of these kids
are likely ahead of their age group grade level. This argument was made by the
court appointed ad litems after meeting with the children.
Please stop guessing and at least wait to see what is actually shown to be fact.
Please stop guessing and at least wait to see what is actually shown to be fact.
Au Contrarian | 6:00 p.m. April 23, 2008
I applaud the Texas BECAUSE the laws setting age of consent and the definition
of incest were changed recently to specifically target the FLDS.
If only Utah were half as clever.
It is true that we live in a depraved sex drenched debased culture; however; what these young girls have been subjected to is as bad as anything the outside culture could throw at them.
If only Utah were half as clever.
It is true that we live in a depraved sex drenched debased culture; however; what these young girls have been subjected to is as bad as anything the outside culture could throw at them.
To Au Contratian | 6:05 p.m. April 23, 2008
You say: "It is true that we live in a depraved sex drenched debased
culture; however; what these young girls have been subjected to is as bad as
anything the outside culture could throw at them."
and not only that, but it carefully planned, pre-meditated AND systematically implemented on the part of the FLDS.
and not only that, but it carefully planned, pre-meditated AND systematically implemented on the part of the FLDS.
Re: Au Contrarian | 6:09 p.m. April 23, 2008
Utah is twice as clever. Have you heard of the new Child Bigamy law? Why do
you think the fanatical FDLS leadership wanted to escape to Texas?
Ironic Mike | 6:14 p.m. April 23, 2008
to "Au Contrarian"
So if your last statement is true, then why aren't they arresting the polygamist men for their crimes? They seem to have no problem "arresting" 500 innocent children and shuttling them off to foster care, but why aren't they making the men suffer? Remove the men from the ranch, not the children. They've done more harm than good here.
So if your last statement is true, then why aren't they arresting the polygamist men for their crimes? They seem to have no problem "arresting" 500 innocent children and shuttling them off to foster care, but why aren't they making the men suffer? Remove the men from the ranch, not the children. They've done more harm than good here.
Leroy G. | 6:15 p.m. April 23, 2008
What happened to adultery? In Utah and most likely Texas, Adultery is still a
crime punishable by up to 6 months in Jail. There simply are not enough jails
even if we kicked all the present prisoners out.
Nobody is going to jail for Polygamy either. People who try to marry formally, they go to jail but Polygamists do not.
It is quite true that in former times young women of 13,14.15 were often married and married to young boys of 14 and up. But it was different times and the young girl went to live with the young boys family and became their daughter. Where do you think daughter in law came from?? Sometimes the boy went to live with the girls family and became their son. Yes they married young but they did not usually set up housekeeping on their own until they were older. They were child brides and no one thought there was anything wrong with it . But that was then and this is now!!! FLDS needs to stop the practice of marrying young girls. Polygamy should be decriminalized like Carolyn Jessop says. She's right!
Nobody is going to jail for Polygamy either. People who try to marry formally, they go to jail but Polygamists do not.
It is quite true that in former times young women of 13,14.15 were often married and married to young boys of 14 and up. But it was different times and the young girl went to live with the young boys family and became their daughter. Where do you think daughter in law came from?? Sometimes the boy went to live with the girls family and became their son. Yes they married young but they did not usually set up housekeeping on their own until they were older. They were child brides and no one thought there was anything wrong with it . But that was then and this is now!!! FLDS needs to stop the practice of marrying young girls. Polygamy should be decriminalized like Carolyn Jessop says. She's right!
Where but Utah | 6:22 p.m. April 23, 2008
Do tens of thousands live polygamy openly?
Do polygamist openly organize and negotiate with the state AG?
You may have noticed "Big Love" wasn't set in Texas.
I hope Utah is twice as clever.
I hope Utah doesn't export any more YFZ's.
Do polygamist openly organize and negotiate with the state AG?
You may have noticed "Big Love" wasn't set in Texas.
I hope Utah is twice as clever.
I hope Utah doesn't export any more YFZ's.
FLDS men . . . | 6:31 p.m. April 23, 2008
. . . shopped "age of consent" laws when setting out for Texas. They
probably didn't think to research prison systems. Texas wouldn't be
my first choice of a place to go to prison.
If child molesters have it rough in prison I wonder how FLDS big daddies will fare.
If child molesters have it rough in prison I wonder how FLDS big daddies will fare.
Leroy G. | 6:31 p.m. April 23, 2008
I don't think the fathers have skipped town. Most of them are still at
the Ranch. The ones that live there anyway.
What happened to the plan for the DNA checking units to do the women and children at the Colliseum and then drive to the Ranch to do the men and women there??? Sounded like a good plan to me. People from out of town could have simply gone to the Ranch and waited with the others to give their DNA. Now I guess they will just come in when they get ready. Or get fined or sent to jail!?
What happened to the plan for the DNA checking units to do the women and children at the Colliseum and then drive to the Ranch to do the men and women there??? Sounded like a good plan to me. People from out of town could have simply gone to the Ranch and waited with the others to give their DNA. Now I guess they will just come in when they get ready. Or get fined or sent to jail!?
Achtung! | 6:32 p.m. April 23, 2008
Polygemy is illegal and has been for a very long time. The lifestyle is strange
to everyone outside their world. There are verifiable accounts of underage
children getting married. Should the law be followed? Absolutely. Was this the
right way of suddenly enforcing the law? Police in full body securing a church
ground in force fully armed? Where's the due process? A blanket edict to
root out most of the kids and ship them off to state foster care? Are you
kidding me? There is no way you can convince me that the officials who gave the
Texas Rangers the orders to do this did the right thing. No way. This smacks
of something very unAmerican. Due process. I don't like this one bit.
State foster care. That's an improvement over their current bizarre
lifestyle? A blanket edict rounding up citizens who have Constitutional rights.
Ya mein heir! Seig heil!
To Ironic Mike | 6:40 p.m. April 23, 2008
They are not arresting polygamous men because they would have to have some proof
of law breaking. They don't have it. They are not likely to get it
either. That is why they took the children - to cruelly punish the adults at
YFZ without any proof of lawbreaking. The trouble is that the biggest losers are
the children who are to be ruined and that is what is most upsetting to the
parents.
Praise the Lord! | 6:51 p.m. April 23, 2008
Finally some heart out of this judge! I am sad to see over 12 months old
separated and still under 2 years of age but at least this was something with
heart!! Thank you for the babies sake!!!!
Insight | 6:51 p.m. April 23, 2008
To Cameron Berry.
Welcome to the world of the Juvenal Justice System that exists in every state in the Union. Namely, there is not due process, open process, justice, equity and most importantly, constitutional rights! That right! The Juvenal Justice Systems and their CPS storm troopers are not even beholden or bound by law as we know it, but act upon a totally different sent of rules and standards, THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD BY BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL COURTS!
Pretty rude wake up isn't it?
When CPS enters the picture, all parental rights go right down the toilet, and it gets worse... the kids get shuffled around and are too often lost in the system... as was painfully evidenced by the Florida CPS fiasco a few years back.
I'm telling your folks, this one's going to backfire in a big way for law enforcement, CPS, and yes, the juvenal justice system of Texas.
Should kids be protected? Absolutely! But in helter skelter Gestapo fashion typical of CPS? Absolutely No!
Abuse of children is wrong, but lets not justify Fascism to creep upon us in the name of protecting the children... or we'll be wondering if the State is the parents.
Welcome to the world of the Juvenal Justice System that exists in every state in the Union. Namely, there is not due process, open process, justice, equity and most importantly, constitutional rights! That right! The Juvenal Justice Systems and their CPS storm troopers are not even beholden or bound by law as we know it, but act upon a totally different sent of rules and standards, THAT HAVE BEEN UPHELD BY BOTH STATE AND FEDERAL COURTS!
Pretty rude wake up isn't it?
When CPS enters the picture, all parental rights go right down the toilet, and it gets worse... the kids get shuffled around and are too often lost in the system... as was painfully evidenced by the Florida CPS fiasco a few years back.
I'm telling your folks, this one's going to backfire in a big way for law enforcement, CPS, and yes, the juvenal justice system of Texas.
Should kids be protected? Absolutely! But in helter skelter Gestapo fashion typical of CPS? Absolutely No!
Abuse of children is wrong, but lets not justify Fascism to creep upon us in the name of protecting the children... or we'll be wondering if the State is the parents.
Ummm..... | 7:22 p.m. April 23, 2008
There has been a lot of criticism and not much thought. CPS "believes"
there is a pregnant 15 year old. CPS "believes" there is abuse. CPS
has brought forth no actual proof of either claim and not only that continues to
change their "beliefs". Did Merrill Jessop say he was the leader of
the place...or is that just someones opinion? Angie Voss said she was scared of
the FLDS men so she brought in an army of men to protect "her" and
drag away all the children. The state's physicatrist got all his info from
the media and says that the culture is bad. The welfare fraud, has there been
actual proof. Carolyn Jessop (and other critics) What if they are lying and
exaggerating their own experinces - ever thought of that? Noooo it must be
true...I read it in the paper!
give them time; . . . | 7:31 p.m. April 23, 2008
. . . Ironic Mike
Texas is putting together a case. Bet your last dollar a lot of FLDS predators are going to spend some time in a Texas prison.
Texas is putting together a case. Bet your last dollar a lot of FLDS predators are going to spend some time in a Texas prison.
Question answered | 7:42 p.m. April 23, 2008
To "Just asking"--The children in your family are
double cousins. That is an acceptable relationship
in any society. Google incest.
Did you see Dr. Phil today? Alot of questions were
answered that have been on everyone's mind.
FYI: It takes an average of four generations to change dysfunctional behavior patterns so the dynamics in this situation are overwhelming unless
individuals want to seriously change their ways.
My question is, "Do these children have to wait
another four to six generations for destructive
behavior patterns to change?"
double cousins. That is an acceptable relationship
in any society. Google incest.
Did you see Dr. Phil today? Alot of questions were
answered that have been on everyone's mind.
FYI: It takes an average of four generations to change dysfunctional behavior patterns so the dynamics in this situation are overwhelming unless
individuals want to seriously change their ways.
My question is, "Do these children have to wait
another four to six generations for destructive
behavior patterns to change?"
dingo | 7:52 p.m. April 23, 2008
you all dont understand it is the women who are the face of the FLDS. it has
always been that way. the FLDS men will throw thier women under the bus to save
thier skins. crying sheep get more attention than snorting rams. the louder the
women cry the more people will fall prey to the sect/cult propiganda machine.
you will always see the same 3 or 4 women representing the entire community as they are the only "chosen" ones who will follow the males orders period. they will tow the line no matter what. they are there also to remind the others of the pecking order and that order is iron clad.
how much different would things have been if the adults had gotten together with CPS and been honest with them? how much different would things have been if the adults had complied with the judge? my guess is very different.
you will always see the same 3 or 4 women representing the entire community as they are the only "chosen" ones who will follow the males orders period. they will tow the line no matter what. they are there also to remind the others of the pecking order and that order is iron clad.
how much different would things have been if the adults had gotten together with CPS and been honest with them? how much different would things have been if the adults had complied with the judge? my guess is very different.
to give them time | 8:05 p.m. April 23, 2008
They will have a very difficult time proving that a case of statutory rape was
committed in Texas. If there are pregnant underage girls (I haven't seen
anyone who is pregnant, let alone underage and pregnant)they will not only have
to prove who the father of the baby is, but also where and when the conception
took place.
They are punishing these people without any evidence that a crime has been committed, using the unproven statements of the CPS. Taking children little children from their parents is not protecting the children, it is simply punishing the parents.
They are punishing these people without any evidence that a crime has been committed, using the unproven statements of the CPS. Taking children little children from their parents is not protecting the children, it is simply punishing the parents.
Polygamy is a CRIME | 8:35 p.m. April 23, 2008
re: 'to give them time.'
OBVIOUSLY there is evidence that a crime has occured or Texas wouldn't have raided the compound. These enforcement officers have no doubt consulted many legal scholars on the matter and are DOING THE RIGHT THING. One doesn't have to wait for conviction prior to action; one need only probable cause, and a 15 year old with 3 kids is p.c.
Hate to break it to you but POLYGAMY IS A CRIME. It is tantamount to child abuse, and is sick. These children are uneducated, afraid of the 21st century, and so inbred that diseases are rampant. There is evidence that the youngest 'wife' was EIGHT when married or promised. These children should be removed permanently and given a chance at normal life, the parents imprisoned (which they no doubt will be), their 'temple' sold for scrap to pay back taxpayer fraud and this entire cult to go the way of the dinosaur.
Just because some self-proclaimed prophet tells you something doesn't make it so. Or legal. Besides, Jeffs has since said publicly that he IS NOT a prophet NOR EVER HAS BEEN. So much for that-
OBVIOUSLY there is evidence that a crime has occured or Texas wouldn't have raided the compound. These enforcement officers have no doubt consulted many legal scholars on the matter and are DOING THE RIGHT THING. One doesn't have to wait for conviction prior to action; one need only probable cause, and a 15 year old with 3 kids is p.c.
Hate to break it to you but POLYGAMY IS A CRIME. It is tantamount to child abuse, and is sick. These children are uneducated, afraid of the 21st century, and so inbred that diseases are rampant. There is evidence that the youngest 'wife' was EIGHT when married or promised. These children should be removed permanently and given a chance at normal life, the parents imprisoned (which they no doubt will be), their 'temple' sold for scrap to pay back taxpayer fraud and this entire cult to go the way of the dinosaur.
Just because some self-proclaimed prophet tells you something doesn't make it so. Or legal. Besides, Jeffs has since said publicly that he IS NOT a prophet NOR EVER HAS BEEN. So much for that-
To Where but Utah | 8:39 p.m. April 23, 2008
A short list of polygamists arrested by the State of Utah (most convicted of a
crime):
Tom Green, Rodney Ortell Kingston, Jeremy Kingston, Terrill C. Johnson, Rodney Holm, Allen Glade Steed...and the big one: Warren Jeffs.
Some additional Arizona convictions: Orson William Black, Kelly Fischer, Donald Barlow, Dale Barlow. Arizona also held six FLDS men for about six months due to contempt of court charges in regards to the Jeffs investigation.
I'm sick of hearing that Utah and Arizona have done nothing about this. Why do you think the FLDS leadership started building compounds in Texas, Colorado and South Dakota. Utah and Arizona have been ratcheting up the heat.
Now when Texas has convicted half as many as are on this list, then you can talk. Oh yea, I forgot, Texas seems to prefer punishing the children.
Tom Green, Rodney Ortell Kingston, Jeremy Kingston, Terrill C. Johnson, Rodney Holm, Allen Glade Steed...and the big one: Warren Jeffs.
Some additional Arizona convictions: Orson William Black, Kelly Fischer, Donald Barlow, Dale Barlow. Arizona also held six FLDS men for about six months due to contempt of court charges in regards to the Jeffs investigation.
I'm sick of hearing that Utah and Arizona have done nothing about this. Why do you think the FLDS leadership started building compounds in Texas, Colorado and South Dakota. Utah and Arizona have been ratcheting up the heat.
Now when Texas has convicted half as many as are on this list, then you can talk. Oh yea, I forgot, Texas seems to prefer punishing the children.
Eric | 8:48 p.m. April 23, 2008
This whole thing is a disaster. It is a dreadful tragedy and a travesty of the
justice system that someone can make some false prank calls and set off a
military style raid on a religious group where hundreds of young children are
arrested and taken away from their parents. Because ONE female who falsely
claimed she was 16 (actually 33 yrs old and not among the FLDS) and falsely
claimed to being physically and sexually abused, we can just assume that every
child within 5 miles of her is also being abused. Hey, this makes about as much
sense. Lets go raid the country of India and imprison everyone who was married
in an "arranged marriage" because we don't approve of the age and
the manner in which the male and the female were joined together in marriage.
If we are a country that has lowered to that level of lunacy, let's arrest
presidential candidate Barack Obama and put him in foster care because he was
the son of a polygamist Barack Hussein Obama Sr and abandoned by his mother.
Re:Mensem | 8:51 p.m. April 23, 2008
Your pastor and his wife chose each other most likely loved each other. These
children have no say so. When the "prophet" tells your family your 13
year old is to be married to this 90 year old it will happen or they will suffer
eternal damnation and ex-communication. Young girls and women are chatel,
traded, bartered, beaten, raped. This is not an issue about polygamy as only
one marriage is performed with a license. This is about human sufferage, mind
control, involuntary submission, sexual abuse. An absolute abomination.
Texas Slim | 9:11 p.m. April 23, 2008
This kidnapping by the state stinks to high heaven. Hope the FLDS' Dream
Team bankrupt CPS and some others. Is the Governor in hiding? Must be on a
fishing trip or something like that. Maybe he's in the hospital in a coma.
Hope he gets well soon. I know he's never let the state kidnap kids like
this. Maybe the FBI needs to be involved. No, not after the Waco massacre.
Well there�s nobody to protect the kids and their mothers
right now except the Dream Team.
shocked | 9:11 p.m. April 23, 2008
I'm surprised with those who say the law was broken about polygamy. When
will the state take your children because you have some crazy ideas. When the
government takes children away from mothers as in Texas it won't be long
before all religions will be considered bad for children. Nazi Germany had laws.
Family's were seperated by the police and good Germans stood by pointing at
the Jews(FLDS). Were all 400+ children raped? Our high school has 3 classrooms
for the children of unwed mothers while they finish high school. Why isn't
the state grabing these children from their mothers and placing them in foster
care? Get over polygamy and see what really is happening.
a better way | 9:20 p.m. April 23, 2008
Punish lawbreakers but don't break up families. There a plenty of FLDS
folks who are being punished for the action of one man. Stop punishing the whole
community.
Ironic Mike | 9:38 p.m. April 23, 2008
I guess the thing that bothers me most is that because of a prank phone call,
the Texas CPS suddenly gives itself the right to pull 500 children away from
their mothers and throw them into foster care. Shouldn't there be a bit
more proof of underage marriage/rape and shouldn't it be on a case by case
basis? In other words, if one girl is raped, take her away, arrest her parents
and anyone else involved, but don't send 500 innocents to foster care.
I don't condone what the FLDS are doing to young children but I think Texas needs to attack the problem much differently. Start by going after the men and keep the children in their homes for now.
I don't condone what the FLDS are doing to young children but I think Texas needs to attack the problem much differently. Start by going after the men and keep the children in their homes for now.
Douglas | 10:05 p.m. April 23, 2008
The 2004 CPS Handbook,(Oct. 2004) section 6121 "The Decision to Remove
A Child" begins with the following exact quote: "Before removing a
child from his or her home, CPS must explore every reasonable alternative for
keeping the child safe from abuse and neglect. The decision to remove the child
only occurs when there is no reasonable way to protect the child from abuse or
neglect in the immediate or short-term future without removal" (see
appendix F to the Office of Inspector General Child Protective Services
Investigation Report, 12/10/2004).
Reading their "Handbook" and trying to square their FLDS actions (and legal positions before the court) makes clear that CPS is absolutely, positively out of control, even by their own standards and rule book. To review all the steps they say they must take first, and then review the FLDS case (where they took none of those steps), causes one to question the motivation of the CPS leadership. To publish a written policy and proceedures manual and then out right ignore it (in actions and legal arguments) is actually a great relief to me, since they first sacrificed their own "code" prior to utterly trampling these Americans' constitutional rights.
Reading their "Handbook" and trying to square their FLDS actions (and legal positions before the court) makes clear that CPS is absolutely, positively out of control, even by their own standards and rule book. To review all the steps they say they must take first, and then review the FLDS case (where they took none of those steps), causes one to question the motivation of the CPS leadership. To publish a written policy and proceedures manual and then out right ignore it (in actions and legal arguments) is actually a great relief to me, since they first sacrificed their own "code" prior to utterly trampling these Americans' constitutional rights.
Rear view mirror | 10:35 p.m. April 23, 2008
Noting that history tends to repeat itself, I foresee in the next few years
enormous law suits being launched against the state of Texas for this injustice.
When these children come to the age of majority and are free from state run
foster care, they will have first hand knowledge of how the state forcibly
attempted to de-culturize them, (ethnic cleansing) and there will be lawyers
aplenty eager to earn a hefty sum defending their cases. Haven't we
learned this lesson before when we forceably removed Americans of Japanese
descent from their homes, abolished civil rights of black Americans, and when we
tried to "civilize" native Americans by removing them from the
reservations to teach them "our" way of life at residential schools?
How much have we paid for these past fiascos? Face it: society EVOLVES,
except in Texas where it DISSOLVES. What seemed unacceptable 50 years ago is
mainstream today. It will be the next generation of Texans who will be paying
tens of millions of dollars in settlements for this un-Constitutional attempt at
destroying a generation of children and a way of life.
Firefly | 11:48 p.m. April 23, 2008
There is an April 17 interview with Sheriff Doran in the Eldorado Success
newspaper, in which Doran says the search warrant was not based entirely on the
phone call from "Sarah". He says the warrant was also based on info.
that he "and others" had gathered over the last four years, through
working with an informant who was NOT living at the ranch (Flora Jessop, some
say), and from info. gathered from 5-6 trips to Utah and AZ.
I've been thinking - FLDS escapee Carolyn Jessop and others say that many of the YFZ women and children were separated from their families in Utah and AZ and "reassigned" to different men and families at YFZ by Warren Jeffs. And there's all this DNA testing, and the FBI was involved in the raid. SO - I bet they're investigating kidnapping across state lines, and perhaps this will end up with kidnapping charges against Warren Jeffs and Jeffs' brothers and cousins.
I think law enforcement wants to go after these ring leaders and break up not the pre-Warren Jeffs FLDS, but the FLDS as it was run by Jeffs (separating families, forcing young girls to "marry", and kicking out the boys).
I've been thinking - FLDS escapee Carolyn Jessop and others say that many of the YFZ women and children were separated from their families in Utah and AZ and "reassigned" to different men and families at YFZ by Warren Jeffs. And there's all this DNA testing, and the FBI was involved in the raid. SO - I bet they're investigating kidnapping across state lines, and perhaps this will end up with kidnapping charges against Warren Jeffs and Jeffs' brothers and cousins.
I think law enforcement wants to go after these ring leaders and break up not the pre-Warren Jeffs FLDS, but the FLDS as it was run by Jeffs (separating families, forcing young girls to "marry", and kicking out the boys).
L | 11:52 p.m. April 23, 2008
I we tend to get off on tangents so I will mention one that struck me funny.
*sigh* at 2:32 talks about having Warren Jeff's picture on the wall as
clear evidence of abuse.
While not a supporter of Mr. Jeffs I would hate to think that by having a certain photo (Even Hitler) on my wall would be enough proof to take my children away.
In fact I do have a photo on my wall of one who was accused of disobeying the laws of the land, that is Christ. Some of the people there thought he was terrible and I understand there were many Christians put to death because of their professed beliefs in him.
To make the jump from a photo on the wall to an assumption that the owners of the home are child abusers is a pretty big jump in my book.
It seems that I remember others, like Malcom X, that others may not have agreed with having his photo displayed. I don't believe the display of a photo is evidence to me of practicing child abuse, DO YOU ?
While not a supporter of Mr. Jeffs I would hate to think that by having a certain photo (Even Hitler) on my wall would be enough proof to take my children away.
In fact I do have a photo on my wall of one who was accused of disobeying the laws of the land, that is Christ. Some of the people there thought he was terrible and I understand there were many Christians put to death because of their professed beliefs in him.
To make the jump from a photo on the wall to an assumption that the owners of the home are child abusers is a pretty big jump in my book.
It seems that I remember others, like Malcom X, that others may not have agreed with having his photo displayed. I don't believe the display of a photo is evidence to me of practicing child abuse, DO YOU ?
to mensem | 12:28 a.m. April 24, 2008
In general I agree with Mensem. Only where there is proof of a crime should the
government be involved. I do not want to have polygamy but I am of mixed
emotions whether it should be against the law. One is enuf for me.
Wait till 400 hundred cases of attachment disorder kicks in with all of these children.
This reminds me of Iraq....No right to invade...No plan for an exit....unbearable collateral damage.
Wait till 400 hundred cases of attachment disorder kicks in with all of these children.
This reminds me of Iraq....No right to invade...No plan for an exit....unbearable collateral damage.
Due Process? | 1:23 a.m. April 24, 2008
The vast majority of mothers are of legal age currently, do you really think it
is fair to label 100% of these families the same and rip children away from
their parents even when no laws have been broken by a majority of the families?
When many many of the families report to be happy and no problems going on, are
their rights as parents and US Citizens being protected by this power monger
Judge? I have no problem taking a few of the isolated cases out of the group
where evidence shows an unsafe environment, but to label each and every family
as a dangerous environment is insane, illegal and unjust.
If this was truely legal, then they could also come for you and your neighbors next (no matter what religion you are) and do the same thing to your family without evidence or due process! I am not saying a couple of those families don't have issues, but this sounds more and more like Nazi Germany and early Communist Russia, pulling families out of their homes without any cause or direct charges!
If this was truely legal, then they could also come for you and your neighbors next (no matter what religion you are) and do the same thing to your family without evidence or due process! I am not saying a couple of those families don't have issues, but this sounds more and more like Nazi Germany and early Communist Russia, pulling families out of their homes without any cause or direct charges!
to just asking. | 6:47 a.m. April 24, 2008
While your brother's may be married to your husband's sisters, you
will find that there mtDNA is not even the same. It will not be difficult to
determine parentage, even with consanguinity of the part of the FLDS.
Also to Avengeance | 6:50 a.m. April 24, 2008
I find it humorous that you consider this group self-sufficient especially given
the "bleeding the beast"/welfare fraud that pervades the community. I
consider them extremely dependent on my tax dollars. I also wonder how honest
they are regarding taxes.
CA | 6:54 a.m. April 24, 2008
Not many of the parents are showing up for their cheek swabs?!
Shocking!
Well, not really. I suspect the 'parents' either are afraid of being charged with crimes, or don't want the kids back since the are no longer "clean and pure", as they call it. Or brainwashed, as normal people call it.
Shocking!
Well, not really. I suspect the 'parents' either are afraid of being charged with crimes, or don't want the kids back since the are no longer "clean and pure", as they call it. Or brainwashed, as normal people call it.
An ex-flds | 7:12 a.m. April 24, 2008
One ex-flds man has already stepped forward stating that his children and their
mother were "reassigned" and went across state borders without his
permission. He drove to Texas, with a picture of this children, hoping to
regain custody. Apparently for some of you this isn't a crime either and
that running over state lines with children is acceptable. It isn't.
For those of you that think you understand DNA, please quit writing. If two sets of twins marry another set of twins, the dna of the children will be different. While identical twins have the same genotype, they WILL NOT have the same phenotype. If fraternal twins you have this: My brother married my husband's sister. The mtDNA is from two different haplogroups, forget even simple mutations. The Y-chromosome is also different as is expected. In other words, they do not even look related. While pervasive consanguinity will require some additional testing, it is not close to being an impossible task. As a matter of fact, it would be nice if they tracked for Fumerase Deficiency, an autosomal recessive founder's disease supported by incest in the community. Kingston Clan incest is even worse.
For those of you that think you understand DNA, please quit writing. If two sets of twins marry another set of twins, the dna of the children will be different. While identical twins have the same genotype, they WILL NOT have the same phenotype. If fraternal twins you have this: My brother married my husband's sister. The mtDNA is from two different haplogroups, forget even simple mutations. The Y-chromosome is also different as is expected. In other words, they do not even look related. While pervasive consanguinity will require some additional testing, it is not close to being an impossible task. As a matter of fact, it would be nice if they tracked for Fumerase Deficiency, an autosomal recessive founder's disease supported by incest in the community. Kingston Clan incest is even worse.
Wanting truth | 7:38 a.m. April 24, 2008
Is there a place to find out what the truth about this situation is; more than
just opinion one side or the other?
Thanks Red | 8:03 a.m. April 24, 2008
From the help4kids link that you gave, there was a direct link to
helpthechildbrides. It seems clear that you only care about justice for the
FLDS, while simultaneously forgetting the injustice occurring by the Nazi FLDS
group.
double standard | 8:34 a.m. April 24, 2008
Wow, it sure would be interesting if communities around the nation were raided
every time a pregnant teen was found. The CPS would find itself extremely busy
then. Oh and by the way, I do not agree with polygamy at all, but at least the
men are marrying these girls and taking the responsibility to care for their
children, unlike the millions of men in this world who sleep around with
multiple partners as proof of their "manliness" and then refuse to be
real men and take responsibility for the children they bring into this world.
Concerned Mother | 8:57 a.m. April 24, 2008
I'm FLDS. I just want it known that we do not pray for anyone, including
Mark Shurtliff to be harmed in any way. He is not telling the truth as also
Carolyn Jessop is not. I've known her and worked with her. She is not
telling the truth. She is going off of her own feelings. We believe the
teachings of our Savior--"pray for those who spitefully use you." As
for the Great State of Texas--Did you forget, or never knew that God will judge
the judges to? How, in this world where drug abuse, alcohol, promiscuous
pregnancy were the child is not wanted, Media that is only interested in telling
of corruption because that is what sells and is not interested in the truth
because truth is clean and not enticing to the corrupt general mass of people,
children and women beaten (really beaten-not just accused by someone with
revenge in their heart), how can you say the people of the FLDS deserve this
kind of treatment. If this can happen to people just because they decide to live
differently, WHY DO WE HAVE A CONSTITUTION? HOW SAFE ARE YOU?
Just Adding Insult to Injury | 9:16 a.m. April 24, 2008
Everything about polygamy aside--removing these children permanently from their
mothers is just going to traumatize these children further. Is there no way
they can stay together? Maybe a guarded new kind of "compound". (Yes,I
know the ACLU and freedom-at-all-costs folks are livid at such a suggestion) We
have seen others who have broken away from these kinds of groups of their own
free will, who have pulled it together and learned it was all a perverted
lifestyle. The state is paying for these FLDS now, it may as well keep on
paying for them--to try to see that the both the mothers and the children be
"de-programed" and re-learn about correct society, correct values,
etc. and rescue them from the warped system they come from. The state (and Fed.
government and all of us) can pay for them now, to fix things and produce an
educated, emotionally and mentally healthy segment of Texas' population or
we can pay for them later--in welfare costs, jail costs, medicaid etc. that will
surely come if they are not taught a new way of thinking and of living, and
become contributing, responsible, well-adjusted citizens.
show me the money | 9:37 a.m. April 24, 2008
Thank Hillary's It takes a Village for the game plan of CPS and the Utah A
G. When the 400+ kids were taken they were deemed Special and therefor worth
$6,000.oo for Texas CPS. Increasing the national debt for who?
Bruce | 10:06 a.m. April 24, 2008
If polygamy laws ever make it to court, they will be shot down. In this age of
same-sex marriage, tv, video games, illegal immigrants (criminals), this should
be way on the back burner.
There are gated communities all over our nation that practice separatism (by class...somehow that is ok but separatism by race/religion is not?) and we don't refer to them as "compounds".
Our ugly ethnocentrism is showing.
Texas owes an apology, and probably a lot more.
There are gated communities all over our nation that practice separatism (by class...somehow that is ok but separatism by race/religion is not?) and we don't refer to them as "compounds".
Our ugly ethnocentrism is showing.
Texas owes an apology, and probably a lot more.
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