Deseret News | Prayers: Request baffles LDS official

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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official

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Carl | 2:39 p.m. April 22, 2008

This judge is up to her ankles in deep doo-doo. And, she is in head-first.

John Robert Mallernee | 2:43 p.m. April 22, 2008

John Lambert, Et Alii:

When I posted my previous comment, I hadn't given any thought to the violation of our Constitution of the United States, although that is certainly a most serious issue.

I merely thought we should be our brother's keeper, regardless of differences in faith, and that Church members should act as individuals, on their own initiative, without waiting for commandment.

As for military chaplains, I was merely citing that as an example of interfaith cooperation, not suggesting that military chaplains be used.

The ranks of our Armed Forces personnel are already stretched far too thin to be wasted on a domestic issue which can be more properly handled by ordinary citizens.

Now, as for the Constitutional issue which so many posters have wisely brought attention to, well now, that's a whole 'nother can of worms, and the point is quite valid.

Yes, it appears the Constitution of the United States is definitely being violated.

What shall we do about it?

Thank you.

John Robert Mallernee
Bard of Clan Henderson
Armed Forces Retirement Home
Washington, D.C. 20011-8400

Reality | 2:45 p.m. April 22, 2008

Seperation of state and church has allowed church to grow into a monster at tax payer expense.

Comments continue below

RE: Keri in TF Idaho | 2:53 p.m. April 22, 2008

You must not be keeping up with the news. The LDS church did in fact respond on April 10 with the primary objective to Distinguish the two religions.

I believe representatives of Christ should respond with, "How can we be of help?" rather than trying to explain and separate the two religions because church leaders feel it 'looks bad' or is 'embarrasing' for the FLDS to be mentioned in the same breath as LDS. The LDS church should be focused on christlike love and service in this case. The Texas Stake President's comments do not appear to be in that vein of helping. The Stake President's statement hinted at being embarrased and put out that the Judge would ask him for help. I predict the LDS church leaders in SLC will begin making amends by weeks end. Mark my words! I have faith in our leaders.

John | 2:55 p.m. April 22, 2008

There is a saying that comes to mind.. As you have done it to the least, you have done it unto me? It's something like that isn't it. I do not agree with plural marriage. I am an active Mormon. What really baffles me is the lack of due process. If the state of Texas took them children out of those homes without any evidence, this says that they could take either yours, or my children with just a rumor. I don't really know about the monitoring of the prayers byt the FLDS, but I'm thankful for the leadership in our church for direction. I trust in the General Authorities enough to know that they'll make the right decision..

To Sarah 1:33 | 3:10 p.m. April 22, 2008

I'm going to step in it here, but when the FLDS went to Texas, 14 year olds were legal marriage participants, and the age of the spouse wasn't allowed to be less. No law broken. The law changed 2 1/2 years ago, so is anyone married under the preexisting law now a law breaker? Is the spouse a child rapist? Should the whole group immediately have abandoned their property and left the state or anulled their "legal" marriages? If I, at age 40, legally (even if to your distaste) marry a spouse of age 16, in a state where it is legal to do so, and then move into a state where the legal age is seventeen, is my prgnant wife now evidence that I have committed rpae and child molestation? If my state laws change after my marriage, must I move in order to remain out There are a lot of details here that are convenient to overlook, especially if your "religious" views differ from someone else's. The legal issues in this whole affair are spinning quickly into chaos because of over hasty action by a religiously inflamed local agenda. I doubt they will ever be reasonably resolved.

RE:John Robert Mallernee | 3:13 p.m. April 22, 2008

Amen Brother! I couldn't agree more. I think the brethren should be focused on how to help our fellow christians in need, regardless of what denomination they belong.
It kind of reminds me of Missouri 1838 when no one would stand up to help the LDS church while persecution raged because of polygamy and belief in modern day revelation. While I don't agree with some of the current FLDS beliefs, we as believers in the gospel of Christ, should stand up to help rather than focusing on keeping DISTANCE!

Chris Plummer | 3:19 p.m. April 22, 2008

Did anyone think that it might make the FLDS folks a bit more comfortable to have LDS folks monitoring them than police or CPS?
Judge is trying to make the best of a bad situation. LDS folks in Texas are "dumbfounded?" Thats seems a bit extreme. They should do the Christlike thing and help.

its_Chet | 3:20 p.m. April 22, 2008

It is not the responsibility of the LDS Church to get involved in this mess any more than it is for every American citizen. This is supposed to be about abuse, not religion, remember? That makes it a civic issue, not a religious one. You canï¿½t have it both ways. You canï¿½t say the FLDS are not being targeted because the state finds their beliefs unacceptable and then simultaneously criticize the LDS Church for not voluntarily taking a high profile, religion-based profile in this train wreck. We know from our own history that the less attention from the state that we draw to ourselves, the better. And guilt is not necessary. It can be fictionally assigned by the authors of the history books.

I think I can speak for the average LDS when I say that we are not image driven, no paranoid. The wholesale theft of the children is a human rights issue that has ominous implications for all Americans. I, as an American, am concerned. I, as a LDS, know that American justice fails horribly sometimes.

Above all, history has shown that rogue governments oppress their people in small measures, gradually, cumulatively, until itï¿½s too late to escape.

Simple facts... | 3:21 p.m. April 22, 2008

Just the facts. Plural marriage (ie sex with many women under the guise of marriage) was primarily performed by early LDS people. Some other smaller groups practiced it, but in smaller numbers than early LDS members. The LDS practice was discontinued because of lack of legal standing for the practice (Anti-bigamy laws were found to be constitutional). Some split off groups of the LDS church continued the practice and continued to reside in Utah, primarily. Now a portion of the largest group moves to Texas and tries to continue the practices. Law enforcement intercedes and now we have this massive PR nightmare for the LDS church.
OK...we started the practice that these people have continued, under the assumption on their part that we (the main body of LDS people) have "strayed". Nonetheless, we caused this problem. We should try to help clean it up. We could do this by acting as Texas has done within our state...vigorously attempt to break up the cults OR we could extend a hand of assistance to the kids and women by offering to help them survive outside of the influence of the corrupt leaders. I believe we should help them.

best | 3:23 p.m. April 22, 2008

A LDS CPS worker would be best as they are already working for government and would not need training. I am sure there are plenty of LDS case workers in Utah and the surrounding area states that could be loaned out to help all involved.
The FLDS may not like the LDS part any more than any other sect of any other religion. The churches values are very different.

Does the question... | 3:24 p.m. April 22, 2008

"do you still beat your wife," ring a chord here? There is no answer or response that will fairly respond. So it is with the suggestion that the LDS might fill a state role here. If they say yes, they are put in the position ofacting as state agents. If they say no they are skewered as insensitive and not authentic Christians. The FLDS will detest the LDS complicity in the violation of there basic liberties under the constitution. Many Evangelicals will cry colusion with the FLDS. When the Judge suggested, not mandated, the potential involvement by religious affiliation, she was shortsighted to say the least as to to intractible position into which any religion would be put. This is to assume that she didn't fully understand the very conundrum she was proposing. Excuse the religious inference, but "damned if they do and damned if they don't." Judge Walther reminds me of someone named Ito.

Michael T. | 3:24 p.m. April 22, 2008

Where is the A.C.L.U.? Watch out!! Same sex marriage advocates are watching this closely. Can you see the connection? If polygamy is declared legal between two or more consenting adults then why not same sex marriage? Polygamy, as practised by these so called fundamentalists is a far cry from what was practiced by the Mormons over a century ago. I've know several men who espouse plural marriage and in every case they have serious testerone issues and their poor wifes are forced to submit and minister to their husbands needs, even when they are sick or 9 months pregnant. Oh yes, I'm a Mormon and have one wife and am thankful for that. nuff said.

To re: John Robert Mallern: 3:13 | 3:29 p.m. April 22, 2008

Stand up for..., my red elbow. The LDS were not suggested to "stand up" for the embattled FLDS, they are being reccomended to "stand in" for the CPS and the state of Texas as monitors to be sure that no unacceptable prayers are being spoken. You are 180* off the mark!!

john b | 3:31 p.m. April 22, 2008

this started off as a request for help and like every thing else these day turned into a conspiresy
i read some ones post that flds and lds were conected because they use the same bible .
i'am lds and we use the king james we must be more like the rest than they thought

Moses Would Say | 3:31 p.m. April 22, 2008

.....and God said "Let those innocent among my children go,.... regardless of their sect or faith!!! Why do ye persecute the innocent for the sins of the few? Judge not the innocent, lest I should come amongst thee thou hypocrits dressed in your robes of blind justice, and smite thee and have thee crawl upon thy belly as lowly serpents. My bowels are full of my contempt for those who keep children from their mothers and who persecute them. My ears grow weary from the longful wailing of mothers robbed of the fruits of their wombs.......let my innocent go!!!

GoodGuyGary | 3:41 p.m. April 22, 2008

Too Lee: Of course I assumed what they do and I did that totally without evidence.

Maybe they would pray for the world peace or their leaders to be blessed? Or get more revelations like kicking out the young men from their community?

I just don't see and don't want to see how LDS related to FLDS, period.

Sarah | 3:46 p.m. April 22, 2008

To Sarah

That age/ law change thing would only work for the first wife.

If your second, third, fourth "wife" were under 18 and your 30 something your breaking the law, not just the polygamy law, but you can (and should) be charged with sexual abuse in different degree's.

RE: Angry boys | 3:50 p.m. April 22, 2008

Why aren't you already marching and protesting? Because you're not really that angry. You're merely 'keyboard angry', like just about every person posting about this. Enraged, wringing hands, we gotta do something, so long as that 'something' doesn't extend beyond typing.
Y'all settle down and let this unwind and see what actually happens. Some of you will feel somewhat foolish if there turns out to be evidence of systemic abuse that you don't even know about yet. Where children are concerned, better to be safe than sorry.

Jake | 3:52 p.m. April 22, 2008

This is an interesting situation - and I understand both sides of the argument. While I'm sure one could find local LDS people who would be happy to help their community in this capacity and many others. And why shouldn't they help out, right? It shouldn't make a difference if it was Baptists or Catholics that the judge asked the local LDS Church to help out with.
Conversely, I doubt the judge would have specifically asked the local LDS community to help out in this manner if the group did happen to be Baptist or Catholic. It seems to me that the judge's choice to ask the LDS to help out with the FLDS demonstrates a knee-jerk assumption that there is little difference between the LDS and FLDS beyonf the "F".
The LDS Church has tried hard over the past 100 years or so to stress that they are not FLDS polygamists - and this request from the judge shows that she and others don't really buy it.

abuse | 3:59 p.m. April 22, 2008

When underage girls are coerced by their elders to have to marry their uncles believing that if they object to this they will lose their souls -

it doesn't get any more abusive than that.

Major Dad | 4:13 p.m. April 22, 2008

Maybe there's a bright side to this request. Remember the Mormon Battalion. After all the persecution,...the violence thrown upon the saints in Missouri and Illinois.... and despite, attempts by the the saints, who humbly sought, but, who were denied redress from the President and the U.S. Congress.... for relief from the many mob instigated atrocities against them.... and having denied such requests, then again stood by and did nothing while the saints were being forced from their homes in the dead of winter........ but, as a body had no qualms, despite being newly bathed in irony....thought nothing astounding in their request of the saints for 500 men to pack and leave their families enroute across the plains...and send them to war against Mexico.

We should, as a church accept this request....I'm sure there is a a reason....and....an oppurtunity to do some good........The Lord does move in mysterious ways.

LOL @ LDS | 4:15 p.m. April 22, 2008

You Mormons who are all scared, I laugh at you.

The connection between the LDS church and the FLDS church is that the FLDS church lives more closely by the laws in the D and C that Joseph Smith himself lived by. You are hypocrites to not understand this same government intervention happened within your own church until "divine intervention" (mainstreaming the religion). If the FLDS discontinued polygamy, it would look exactly the same as the LDS church. Please people, get a grip.

Memory to Disk | 4:25 p.m. April 22, 2008

There is no outrage because the plural marriage doctrine is still a deep held dormant belief among LDS church members, and it comes to light when a LDS man can be sealed to a 2nd wife in the temple, but your first wife has to be deceased. Utah is basically in denial over this matter of plural marriage, but the entrance sign into Texas reads: ï¿½Donï¿½t Mess With Texasï¿½ is ringing true. We have created a monster by ignoring this practice over the years. The victims are the children. For shame, for shameï¿½

b willson | 4:26 p.m. April 22, 2008

I think that the pope should rule over catholics....and the profit should rule over the book of Mormon....Which profit???Jeffs or Monson???

wrz | 4:27 p.m. April 22, 2008

>>As I understand it, representatives or members of the Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints are only being requested to SUPERVISE the FLDS prayer meetings, not participate in them.<<

And just why do prayer meetings need to be supervised by anyone, especially the government or an assignee of the government? This is coming close to violation of the First Amendment rights against the establishment of religion or the "free exercise thereof."

TJ | 4:27 p.m. April 22, 2008

Not to sound macho or anything like that but why are only mothers mentioned? Where are the fathers of all these children? I would think that one role of a father is to help protect his wife and children(wives in this case but same thing). I would imagine that there are records showing who the women are married to so they should be able to find husbands and fathers. I don't konw if the men are or aren't allowed to be there but in my opinion I think the fathers should be involved. It bothers me that the father who is supposed to be the bread giver and the patriarch of the family is not there. I am not trying to down grade any mother because I know many men who are not as mature and dependable as some women but I am just saying that the men should be there to support their wives and children and if they refuse to go then I would think that something is very wrong with their priorities.

Fredd | 4:30 p.m. April 22, 2008

I think the fact that the purpose of monitoring the prayers is to enforce the law/court opinions means there should be someone secular monitoring it. No religion should monitor another person's prayers and then report them to a court of law unless they are officers of the court. And it would put the LDS in a bad spot. While both religions are wrong at least the LDS are law abiding citizens who wish to be disassociated with polygamists.

wrz | 4:30 p.m. April 22, 2008

>>The reasoning is simple for this action. Since both groups share the Book of Mormon, it is logical that someone LDS would have a greater degree of compassion and understanding.<<

They also share the Bible... with the Catholics, Baptists, and others.

its_Chet | 4:31 p.m. April 22, 2008

Plural marriage was practiced on God's command by Joseph Smith, and then by others through revelation received by him and later Prophets.

It was stopped on God's command, through revelation given to His Prophet, Wilford Woodruff. This was for reasons some of which only God knows, but the biggest one was that God did not want the Church to be obliterated by the US government, which had reactively enacted anti-polygamy laws and was using them to abuse and raid the Church of its property.

No LDS should be ashamed for either the commencement or cessation of the practice, which was all done in accordance with God's commandments and under His direction.

It is not a "mess" for us to clean up. The fact that the FLDS insist on doing it without Divine approval or direction is their fault and their responsibility, and that's why they're in this situation.

I, an LDS, rightly claim no guilt in the matter. And I am not ashamed of my heritage. Joseph Smith was and is a Prophet of God, and I am proud to call myself a member of the same Church as him. I can only hope he feels the same about me.

To LOL @ LDS | 4:34 p.m. April 22, 2008

Uh, you won't be laughing when the government comes to take your children away. Watch this case because it is setting presidence. Could a simple phonecall from a woman in Colorado be enough to take your children away from you? Ask yourself that. We can all point fingers and show our bigotry and act all self-righteous, but what is really going on is a destruction of our rights as citizens to practice religion. Why aren't muslims held to the same standards? I know a muslim man with two wives and yet he never undergoes this type of criticism. In Canada, muslims can get government assistance for their wives.

to wrz | 4:35 p.m. April 22, 2008

They want the meeting to be supervised so that the mothers cannot try to plan some escape or give advice to the kids to against the people in Texas. it seems that it is to prevent the mothers from doing something wrong and influencing their kids. Atleast that is what I understood from reading the article.

irony of ironies | 4:37 p.m. April 22, 2008

does anyone else see the irony here? LDS has spent the better part of a century trying desperately to be accepted as "normal." LDS leadership have enforced and promoted conformity and obedience above all else.

For all that, most Americans think Saints are weird and a Texas judge can't tell the differences between LDS and FLDS.

This is our punishment for not having the courage to promote difference and focusing instead on conformity.

To b willson | 4:38 p.m. April 22, 2008

It might be helpful if you knew what you were talking about. Prophet or profit?! A dictionary could be a helpful tool from time to time.

wrz | 4:38 p.m. April 22, 2008

>>The prayers have to be monitored if they include contact between adult and child. Just as any other contact would be monitored.<< - Mary

These people are not under arrest. It is a miscarriage of justice in the first place to keep them, and for sure to not let them talk to whomever they wish.

Correction to LOL @ LDS | 5:00 p.m. April 22, 2008

There are a great many FLDS doctrinal and organizational departures from the LDS Church. Polygamy just happens to be the pet doctrine of most because of the controversy surrounding it.

The truth is that the FLDS church doesn't closely resemble the original Church Joseph Smith organized at all, not even in their practice of polygamy. I won't enumerate all of the differences here because there isn't enough space. Suffice it to say, there are very good reasons to separate the two religions to avoid uninformed confusion (like the comments you made).

Steve | 5:09 p.m. April 22, 2008

Agreed with the people who say the LDS should help; after all, LDS are generally believed to be, and are supposed to be, good US citizens. The only reason why not is PR. To the opposition: if Joseph Smith had never practiced polygamy, would the FLDS exist? I think not. Does anyone now living bear the burden for the connection? Of course not. But that doesn't change the fact that if Joseph Smith hadn't started it, no FLDS would exist today.

Sarah | 5:16 p.m. April 22, 2008

LOL at LDS

I watched a program with a former FLDS women who was describing some of the practices (not polygamy) and there beliefs and she was bring up things I have never heard of (nor are they in any scripture). You know the LDS church is not just about polygamy. It's just really really intersting to those outside of the church. There really is more to the church than that. And i'm afraid the FLDS got stuck on polygamy and forgot everything else.

There are many many groups in the country that follow polygamy (with many following someone what of lds church doctrine) but they don't marry off children to 30 year old men. They don't kick out the young men so that the older men have more young women to marry. They don't arrange marriages. They don't keep themselves so isolated that there women and children literally have no idea how the real world works. There children are allowed to go to school (real public school). They allow people from outside the group to marry into the group and they allow there children to marry outside polygamy without banishment. I could go on and on.

John | 5:23 p.m. April 22, 2008

The FLDS are our historical cousins (not to mention our brothers and sisters as children of God); we have the same theological roots. As cousins, we should help our family members. The stake president should have jumped at the chance to help the FLDS.

180% off the Mark? | 5:45 p.m. April 22, 2008

The LDS church should help when asked by the judge not try and avoid it to save face. Rather than be "dumbfounded" at the judge's request, why not STAND UP and STEP IN and help? Thats all I'm sayin' brother.

Carlos | 6:01 p.m. April 22, 2008

It is quite possible that the judge asked the FLDS who the would feel most comfortable with. I am very aware that LDS don't see any connection between themselves and the FLDS but what many FLDS do see the connection and they are the ones in in custody. The Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith are very important to FLDS and they would probably feel more comfortable praying in a room with mainstream Mormons than with someone they have no connection to. Of course this makes mainstream Mormons uncomfortable but the judge is thinking about the FLDS right now.

Anonymous | 6:05 p.m. April 22, 2008

Mr Chaplan. Thats your PAID position to govern others religious affairs.

The LDS Church does not preside or "monitor" any other faiths practices to see if they are abiding by the Laws of the land or the rules of the Court governing the coaching of witnesses.

Thats the Feds job or the Polices' job, not a religions job. Get it straight guys.

dmh | 6:20 p.m. April 22, 2008

although I don't know much about the LDSchurch I do have family memebers that are LDS.
To me it makes since to have someone that is not FDLS
in there so as other people have said the mothers can't tell the kids what to say. Not only are the mothers not saying who their kids are but the kids are pointing to diffrent women as theri moms.

I would hope the LDS church would help out. Wouldn't they want the kids to still learn about the momrman bible.

Anonymous | 6:32 p.m. April 22, 2008

This is an odd request... though I see why the judge thought of it. If anyone were to understand at least *some* of the situation, it would be members of the LDS Church, since they share *some* similarities.

I know that if some of those children were to be placed in my home as foster children, it would be a better environment in an LDS home for them rather than a Baptist one. NOt that I even understand or agree with much the FLDS stand for, at least I have an understanding of their background that most others will not.

It's still frustrating, though. Members of the LDS Church don't want to be associated with the FLDS in any manner... but really... who is better suited to help these people at this point? I honestly think that LDS members are a good "translator" of sorts, a buffer between the two groups. But... still... it seems all kinds of wrong for a judge to ask for such a thing.

Shia vs. Sunni vs. Ismaili | 6:55 p.m. April 22, 2008

The judge suggesting LDS may be a good "compromise" as akin to requesting a Sunni supervise a Shia's prayers or an Ismaili's prayers. Can you imagine??? (yes, I know most American's don't know the difference, but believe me, although the "average American" might believe one Muslim sect is like another, they are not and would not mix, no matter how closely resembled they might be). If this judge were in Bagdad, they might make such a neophyte suggestion.

Horace | 7:05 p.m. April 22, 2008

I am so disgusted with all you Mormons. All you care about is covering your past.

Generic Brand Believer In Tenn | 7:27 p.m. April 22, 2008

To Mary
Have you ever heard of the Constitution of the United States of America? In case you haven't, it guarentees FREEDOM OF RELIGION!! There is also a quaint little amendment forbidding "unresonable search and Seizure"--the Fourth Amendment. How can it possibly be reasonable to seize a group of 427 people of all ages on the basis of a highly questionable couple of phone calls from one allegedly 16 yr old girl?

Funny little man | 8:12 p.m. April 22, 2008

John
You are a funny little man.
Why do you spout off lies continuously?
The LDS religion is nothing a like the FLDS cult. So you need to take some time and rethink your silly remarks.

No one is interfering with you going off and having a harem of women if that's what floats your canoe and it makes you feel like a REAL man.--Just don't go around blabbing false preachings to the rest of us.

wrz | 8:13 p.m. April 22, 2008

>>They want the meeting to be supervised so that the mothers cannot try to plan some escape or give advice to the kids to against the people in Texas.<<

How can a suckling two year old get advise from a mother or try to plan an escape?

If they think an escape would happen, all they need to do is lock the doors after they gather for prayer.

John | 8:41 p.m. April 22, 2008

RE: To many utilizing this article as an Anti-mormon rhetoric. This article is about a judge asking a religous faith to monitor prayers for another religious faith that has no claim to it any way. No one has proved direct connnection other than a man desiring to use LDS history to have sex with multiple woman and underage girls with his collieagues. If the judge asked the local Baptist minister, would you anti-mormons be spewing your rhetoric towards the LDS Church?
The idea is absurd. It is not hard for the judge to bring in adult of the faith supervised with a guard to say a prayer and be escorted out. It is obvious the judge made a very poor decision when it came to this matter. And to many of you - We as LDS are not ashamed of our past, nor do we try to hide from it, or run away from it - so get over yourselves.

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Mike Terry, Deseret News

Attorney Julie Balovich, representing FLDS mothers whose children were taken from the YFZ compound, speaks to the media after a hearing at the Tom Green County Courthouse in San Angelo. She wants to reunite children and mothers.

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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official

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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official