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Prayers: Request baffles LDS official
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Hooray for Texas | 7:41 a.m. April 22, 2008
Thank goodness there is a level headed person overseeing this debacle in San
Angelo. The judge is on course and not folding like a lawn chair. What an
opportunity for the LDS to stand tall for their religion. However, they will
not. They cannot see any merit to helping. Maybe they are baffled by the request
because it did not come from their bishop. When will these two religions kiss
and make up? Probably never. There is no martyrdom in forgiveness.
michael texas lds | 7:41 a.m. April 22, 2008
I quick note to the members of the Utah Lds church contrary to Utah's
popular belief, Texas has many stakes and San Angelo is a Stake also there ar 4
temples in Texas but I am glad that the Stake president is following the proper
leadership way
Comments continue below
Whoa There Texas | 7:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
Since when does any entity have the authority to take away my cell phone unless
they have evidence (and by evidence, I mean "real evidence") that it
has been used in a CRIME? As stated above, these women are not in jail, they
have not been acused of a crime (yet), there has been NO evidence presented that
their cell phones have been used in any kind of criminal activity, so why take
them away? What are you hiding, Texas?
Josh Tan | 7:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
I personally do not see anything wrong with LDS people "assisting" the
FLDS - and this assistance should go beyond supervised prayers; these children
and mothers have spirits that have to be nursed and nobody else can do it better
than the LDS. This is the time for them to be enlightened on why there
lifestyle is wrong and that it is now time to join mainstream society.
BUT, we also need to look into the background of this judge; maybe she just has a natural intolerance if not total hatred towards both LDS and FLDS that she would try anything to drag non fundamentalists into the scandal to drive the point that Mormons are weird and unacceptable people.
I am sure that a lot of LDS have already taken unofficial roles in helping these misguided and exploited people but again the intentions of this judge has to be scruitinized
BUT, we also need to look into the background of this judge; maybe she just has a natural intolerance if not total hatred towards both LDS and FLDS that she would try anything to drag non fundamentalists into the scandal to drive the point that Mormons are weird and unacceptable people.
I am sure that a lot of LDS have already taken unofficial roles in helping these misguided and exploited people but again the intentions of this judge has to be scruitinized
To cynical | 7:50 a.m. April 22, 2008
You totally missed the point (hint, joke, mirth, bemusement). Hey some are
Baptist, Methodist, etc.
We've come across a lot of Protestants that know the Book of Mormon better than the LDS people. Unfortunately for most of them, they never opened or read the book, ever.
We've come across a lot of Protestants that know the Book of Mormon better than the LDS people. Unfortunately for most of them, they never opened or read the book, ever.
Baptist in Texas | 7:44 a.m. April 22, 2008
I find this whole situation extremely disturbing. Religions of all types should
be up in arms and very alarmed. Removal of this many children from one community
based on what is now known as a false allegation, confiscation of cell phones,
keeping children from parents when there is no immediate imminent danger and now
monitoring of prayer. Although I do not agree with the beliefs regarding the
FLDS, who is next? If this action is allowed to continue it will be only a short
leap to believe other religions can be persecuted for "legitimate"
reasons and this case will be used as a jumping off point. The sherriff of this
county was quoted that he had been developing a plan for 4 years just waiting
for a "reason" to get into the community. He allegedly had an
"informant" for 3 to 4 years and could not obtain any legitimate
reason to enter the compound. The government does not like the fact that this
group did not rely on public utilities, school systems, resources for food etc.
Self sufficiency = no government interference and "big brother" does
not like not having any control.
Gena | 7:46 a.m. April 22, 2008
This is a little like asking a Baptist to monitor the prayers of a member of the
Church of Christ - the Church of Christ member would likely see that as
"fightin' words"! From the LDS perspective, I don't think
we would mind helping out - but from the FLDS perspective, seeing the LDS as
"apostate" as they do, they would likely find it very offensive to
have their prayers monitored by LDS members. If you were Lutheran in the 16th
century, would you want your prayers monitored by a Catholic? Same difference.
Abuse | 7:51 a.m. April 22, 2008
After reading many of the comments here I now understand why this abuse of
children, young boys and women has been allowed to continue for so long in
Arizona and Utah.
State Monitors? | 7:53 a.m. April 22, 2008
Just what are the LDS people supposed to monitor? DO the LDS supervisors now
become agents of the State of Texas to prevent 'Abuse' during prayer
time? Who do they report to? And what just what activities should they report
on? What a total joke. Gives a pretty clear view of what this Judge believes
about the FLDS. This is just unbelievable that a Judge in this Country would
buy the notion that all of sudden the FLDS doctrine, lifestyle, teachings, is
now detrimental to their kids. In other words if the FLDS raise children to
become like themselves then that amounts to child abuse as defined by the State
of Texas.
concerned | 7:54 a.m. April 22, 2008
It is obvious to those who have lived in areas that are predominently Baptist
that certain extremist members of that group seem to have a determination to
attack the Mormoms. They constantly preach in their churches that Mormons are
evil and are going to hell. They lump all the FLDS and the LDS together as one,
and they are using this incident to point a finger and say this gives evidence
to their claims. Why don't they have the good baptists supervise the FLDS
prayers? Because they want people to equate FLDS and LDS. They want people to
think they are all one and the same, and they want them to be identified as
evil. All of them. There are good and bad in all religions. Only a minority of
Baptists hate Mormons, but unfortunately they are the ones who manipulated this
situation. They are in positions of power and they are using their power and
authority to trample on the rights of others.
Bill | 7:55 a.m. April 22, 2008
The Baptists and the Presbyterians seized them and herded them from their
homes--let the Baptists and the Presbyterians monitor their prayers. If the LDS
get into the middle of this, they'll become the punching bag of both sides:
the LDS will be accused of sympathizing with the polygamists, then be accused by
the polygamists of ratting to the Texas Rangers about their prayers. The LDS
have no more business monitoring the polygamists' prayers than the Texas
Rangers do.
OldPolyg | 7:59 a.m. April 22, 2008
What makes you think that FLDS want to have anything to do with regular LDS?
Now LDS are being asked to spy on the FLDS as they pray by the state of Texas!
Something is wrong with this picture. Apparently Texas Justice has no respect
for the US Constitution; pesky little things like the First Amendment and the
right to privacy, not to mention the right of clergy-member confidentiality. How
many more rights will US citizens have to lose before they wake up?
Ernest Hemple | 8:07 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge needs to be removed! The children returned and restitution made to
members of this religion. NO ONE HAS THE RIGHT TO CALL ANOTHER RELIGION A SECT!
The children are being damaged and this person who has the power to adjudicate
this matter is ignorant, unjust, foolish, criminal. She has crossed the line and
puts all civil liberties at risk. The state of Texas has passed laws that are
simply aimed at frustrating the FLDS lifestyle. God and only God can determine
when a person is ready to bear children. Societies since the beginning of time
have been arranging marriages. Have you ever watch the movie Fiddler on the
Roof? Freedom of religion does not mean that we all must be Southern
Baptist??
This is no more than play to grab a group of citizens and force then to change their religion! There is collusions in the surrounding communities, which was the catalyst for this invasion. I am not a member of this religion. What is the difference of what is happening in Texas and what happened in Germany under Hitler? Think about it!
This is no more than play to grab a group of citizens and force then to change their religion! There is collusions in the surrounding communities, which was the catalyst for this invasion. I am not a member of this religion. What is the difference of what is happening in Texas and what happened in Germany under Hitler? Think about it!
The baptists problem | 8:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
The evangtalical baptists started this problem. Let THEM sort it out. We need
to stay as far away as possible from this. I have a feeling SLC will tell
President Webb the same thing. Once we touch it, it's OURS and we will be
forever connected.
Gerald | 8:08 a.m. April 22, 2008
The idiot here is Charles L. Webb. This is a reasonable request. Mormons only
make themselves look more foolish by trying to play this stupid game of
distancing themselves from the FLDS. Amazing how paranoid and overly-sensitive
you Mormons are about this! It completely removes or distorts what should be
normal Christian charity for the people in this unfortunate situation. Shame on
President Webb for being so uncooperative.
Matthew | 8:09 a.m. April 22, 2008
To cynical:
You seem to be assuming that a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Texas would understand the veiled comments of an FLDS mother better than a Baptist person in Texas. That is where you make a grevious error. The FLDS culture and doctrines are as foreign to the average member of the Church of Jesus Christ as they are to the average Baptist person. The FLDS people deliberately went their own way a long time ago and have been developing their faith in isolation. Now someone from Utah that lives near the FLDS in Utah and sees them at the farm equipment store regularly etc. might have some insights. But that person could just as easily be a Baptist as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
You seem to be assuming that a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Texas would understand the veiled comments of an FLDS mother better than a Baptist person in Texas. That is where you make a grevious error. The FLDS culture and doctrines are as foreign to the average member of the Church of Jesus Christ as they are to the average Baptist person. The FLDS people deliberately went their own way a long time ago and have been developing their faith in isolation. Now someone from Utah that lives near the FLDS in Utah and sees them at the farm equipment store regularly etc. might have some insights. But that person could just as easily be a Baptist as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ.
It's just a prayer | 8:18 a.m. April 22, 2008
WHY must their prayers be supervised? Are they afraid they will start making a
blood sacrifice during the prayer? THIS IS MESSED UP! The Polygamous
people's prayers are not fanatical, disruptive, or threatening to
anyone's well being. So WHY WHY WHY must they be "supervised"
when they pray.
For heavens sake...prayers of other groups like Holy Rollers are much more shocking in nature. Leave these women and children to PRAY in peace.
The Founding Fathers of this country are groaning in heaven right now.
For heavens sake...prayers of other groups like Holy Rollers are much more shocking in nature. Leave these women and children to PRAY in peace.
The Founding Fathers of this country are groaning in heaven right now.
Lee | 8:13 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think the LDS personnel should accept this assignment and quit worrying about
what others might think. There have already been accusations made about
Baptists showing up and taking these children away in their bible study buses,
implying that the baptists are trying to indoctrinate these children? Would
people be more comfortable if the judge asked Baptists, Catholics, Jehovah
Witnesses, Muslims or Atheists to supervise these prayer sessions?
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was LDS children who were taken away and the members wanted to fast and pray for the safe return of their children, I'm pretty sure they would welcome the help of FLDS members who have similar beliefs in the power of fasting and prayer, and even the concept of prayer circles.
Perhaps if a Christan church had taken pity on the church members in the 1800s when they were being persecuted, life would have been easier in Missouri, Illinois and other states. Now the church has a chance to show an example, but seems overly concerned about their "image".
If the shoe was on the other foot and it was LDS children who were taken away and the members wanted to fast and pray for the safe return of their children, I'm pretty sure they would welcome the help of FLDS members who have similar beliefs in the power of fasting and prayer, and even the concept of prayer circles.
Perhaps if a Christan church had taken pity on the church members in the 1800s when they were being persecuted, life would have been easier in Missouri, Illinois and other states. Now the church has a chance to show an example, but seems overly concerned about their "image".
Red | 8:22 a.m. April 22, 2008
"If they cross the line or coach the child or make any kind of comment on
litigation � all bets are off," [Judge] Walther said.
The only adult detainees are parents of children four years old and younger. If Texas' case can be derailed by moms coaching four-year-olds in anti-interrogation techniques, things are even sorrier than I thought.
How much accurate, dependable, legally admissable info does Texas hope to glean by interrogating toddlers, anyway?
"Good cop, bad cop" while too young for "Kindergarten Cop" -- Sheesh!
The only adult detainees are parents of children four years old and younger. If Texas' case can be derailed by moms coaching four-year-olds in anti-interrogation techniques, things are even sorrier than I thought.
How much accurate, dependable, legally admissable info does Texas hope to glean by interrogating toddlers, anyway?
"Good cop, bad cop" while too young for "Kindergarten Cop" -- Sheesh!
DM | 8:18 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm appalled by the comments of many, many of my fellow LDS readers. On the
one hand, we are generally sympathetic to the situation of the FLDS, especially
regarding the separation of the children from their mothers. But when we are
asked to help - to observe prayer - the reaction is an extreme "no
way!" for no better reason than to protect our own image. We're so
intent on making the distinction between ourselves and the FLDS that we
can't see straight. Are we so hell-bent on being accepted into the
mainstraim of US religions that we can no longer help our neighbors (be it the
FLDS or the state of Texas)?
Ben | 8:25 a.m. April 22, 2008
In response to "Great Judge in fact" who wrote " Their prayers
need to be monitored to make sure they dont try to coach the kids to lie during
their prayer times."
I think that applies more to the CPS workers who when they get these kids alone, try their best to trick up the kids into saying something that can and will be used against their parents in a court of law. The CPS workers are the ones who need supervision, at least by an attorney for the accused. What a sneaky way to skirt around miranda rights. The FLDS also have a fundamental right to their freedom of religion.
I have found it simply remarkable that the LDS church has done absolutely nothing to support the rights of these people in any way, except to repeatedly issue public statements, that the FLDS are not Mormons, and would be instantly excommunicated if any of them were members.
It seems a little insulting that this crazy judge would actually issue a ruling regulating these peoples religion, by ruling that they cannot even pray without the guidance of another religion that holds them in contempt.
I think that applies more to the CPS workers who when they get these kids alone, try their best to trick up the kids into saying something that can and will be used against their parents in a court of law. The CPS workers are the ones who need supervision, at least by an attorney for the accused. What a sneaky way to skirt around miranda rights. The FLDS also have a fundamental right to their freedom of religion.
I have found it simply remarkable that the LDS church has done absolutely nothing to support the rights of these people in any way, except to repeatedly issue public statements, that the FLDS are not Mormons, and would be instantly excommunicated if any of them were members.
It seems a little insulting that this crazy judge would actually issue a ruling regulating these peoples religion, by ruling that they cannot even pray without the guidance of another religion that holds them in contempt.
Michael in Texas | 8:27 a.m. April 22, 2008
I used to be a member of the SanAngelo ward in the late 70's. Ward building
used to be right across from the main gate of Goodfellow AFB. I know the
members are strong there, and there are enough to have several temples and
stakes.
I think the judge wants to tie the LDS faith tightly to the FLDS chuch. President Webb said members can help in personal ways, but feels the church should not get involved in an offical role. It might do well for a GA to go down there, or an area seventy to explain to the judge personally, why we can't get involved.
I think the judge wants to tie the LDS faith tightly to the FLDS chuch. President Webb said members can help in personal ways, but feels the church should not get involved in an offical role. It might do well for a GA to go down there, or an area seventy to explain to the judge personally, why we can't get involved.
former YX FA | 8:22 a.m. April 22, 2008
How many times over the last few weeks have we heard the media mistakenly link
the FLDS and present-day Mormons? How many times have interviewers juxtaposed
the Salt Lake Mormon Temple behind the interviewee? It would be very difficult
to wash the faces of the Stepford wives in Texas from memory and association
with the current LDS Church were the Mormons to cede to the
judge�s request.
In 1998 the president of the LDS Church said, "I wish to categorically state that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy.� Mormons should keep their distance to avoid the suggestion that they sanction the evil practiced by the misguided.
In 1998 the president of the LDS Church said, "I wish to categorically state that this Church has nothing whatever to do with those practicing polygamy.� Mormons should keep their distance to avoid the suggestion that they sanction the evil practiced by the misguided.
Ernest | 8:34 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think that many have been missing the point. What the judge wants is not for
someone to help these people with their prayers. What she wants is someone to
"monitor", that is to spy on them and report their findings back to
her. It is not a question of helping. If she wants supervision, it should be
done by the courts not by another religious group.
Chaplains | 8:37 a.m. April 22, 2008
I am a Lutheran,but when I was in the military the Chaplain I knew was Baptist
and he was great, also during Vietnam two Chaplains received the Congressional
Medal of Honor and they were Roman Catholic
Don G
Vietnam Security Police Assosiation
Don G
Vietnam Security Police Assosiation
Voice of Reason | 8:36 a.m. April 22, 2008
No one should supervise these prayers because these women should not be
incarcerated. What ever happened to the right of conscience, let alone religious
rights. People would do well to offer service by ousting that judge. The
corruption is unbelievable. The abuse of rights is blatant. Allowing this
atrocity will only serve to further damage the fact that rights are inalienable;
it won't be much longer before rights are "granted" by
black-robed rulers.
Re: Baptist in Texas | 8:37 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm a Mormon in Utah, and I couldn't agree with you more.
How many religions are just one popular opinion away from being rounded up?
How many religions are just one popular opinion away from being rounded up?
AuK | 8:39 a.m. April 22, 2008
The cell phones were removed because there was evidence of witness tampering
already going on from the ranch to the women with the children in custody. Did
you *read* the article or just scroll down to the comment box? I wouldn't
trust any of the women as far as I could throw them: they don't know any
better and they will continue to encourage the children to lie. Vaccuuming
during prayer time? No -that was disrespectful. Privacy? Again, NO. Their
interactions with the children must be monitored - they have been lying to CPS
since the very beginning.
bilbo | 8:40 a.m. April 22, 2008
It all depends on what "monitor" means.
If the prayers are to be conducted in a scheduled meeting, free from ouitside (guards)personnel, then why does ANYONE need to monitor. Just give them a room.
If the words, conversations, topics, remarks and all discourse is to be documented; to be certain no non-prayer contact is conducted, then, in effect, the judge is asking LDS Mormons to be in a role as a functioning officer of the court.
What will the monitors be expected to loo and watch fpr?
A can of worms for more civil rights denials.
Are all of YOU ready to be an authrized officer of the Court? Will you be willing to enforce the same rules the court requires the guards/police to do now...the roles that are causing the compalints from the ones with no rights?
Why do the people need to be monitored? Are LDS or any of YOU ready to be enforcers of these payer police?
These are trying times...God will answer paryers...but, we can't be prayer cops.
Too much to ask if you truly believe in free agency in your talks with God through unfettered prayers.
If the prayers are to be conducted in a scheduled meeting, free from ouitside (guards)personnel, then why does ANYONE need to monitor. Just give them a room.
If the words, conversations, topics, remarks and all discourse is to be documented; to be certain no non-prayer contact is conducted, then, in effect, the judge is asking LDS Mormons to be in a role as a functioning officer of the court.
What will the monitors be expected to loo and watch fpr?
A can of worms for more civil rights denials.
Are all of YOU ready to be an authrized officer of the Court? Will you be willing to enforce the same rules the court requires the guards/police to do now...the roles that are causing the compalints from the ones with no rights?
Why do the people need to be monitored? Are LDS or any of YOU ready to be enforcers of these payer police?
These are trying times...God will answer paryers...but, we can't be prayer cops.
Too much to ask if you truly believe in free agency in your talks with God through unfettered prayers.
Bella Mia | 8:40 a.m. April 22, 2008
The LDS church would be the LAST ones the FLDS would want to deal with them
because our faith is specifically and deliberately opposed to the teachings of
the FLDS.
GoodGuyGary | 8:47 a.m. April 22, 2008
For those who suggest LDS Church to do it is not thinking for the benefits of
the LDS church.
Even LDS know Book of Mormon, do FLDS look at BOM the same was LDS do?
How can someone "monitoring" others' prayers? What if something crazy, like the women commit suicide, or kill their kids during the prayer, inside a LDS church building?
Will the media more confused, or more clear about the difference between the two "religions" after LDS accept the "invitation"?
LDS church should not accept the offer since it will do nothing good to it. Think again people, it is not a good time to extend the helping hand.
Even LDS know Book of Mormon, do FLDS look at BOM the same was LDS do?
How can someone "monitoring" others' prayers? What if something crazy, like the women commit suicide, or kill their kids during the prayer, inside a LDS church building?
Will the media more confused, or more clear about the difference between the two "religions" after LDS accept the "invitation"?
LDS church should not accept the offer since it will do nothing good to it. Think again people, it is not a good time to extend the helping hand.
What service? | 8:42 a.m. April 22, 2008
The request isn't to pray with them it's to monitor their prayers to
make sure they're not inappropriately communicating with each other....what
does that have to do with religious service? Get a cop, not a priest.
This whole thing smacks of religious persecution in the worst degree. And did we even read the rest of the article about removing these folks ability to communicate their conditions to the outside world and being punished for communicating with the press.
This whole thing smacks of religious persecution in the worst degree. And did we even read the rest of the article about removing these folks ability to communicate their conditions to the outside world and being punished for communicating with the press.
Hey Gerald, | 8:49 a.m. April 22, 2008
Unfortunantely, Charles Webb is doing the correct thing by saying he is going to
contact SLC for enlightenment on the subject. It has nothing to do with
'christian' charity, rather with how the church deals with
polygamists(not of any denomination) in general.
GoodGuyGary | 8:45 a.m. April 22, 2008
To Lee: To answer your questions, I will say, NO, I would not welcome help from
FLDS. "similar beliefs in the power of fasting and prayer"?? LDS
don't pray to have sex with minors, or fast for the choice of the second,
thrid, or forth wife. You are just wrong.
Lee | 8:46 a.m. April 22, 2008
Yes. I would be more comfortable if the Baptists handled this one. As far as
the shoe being on the other foot. that's exactly what we need to prevent.
They went after the easy target first. Next it's us.
The best example is the one President Webb is showing. Get direction first. I'm glad I'm not making decisions on this one. I think the judge is heading for disbarrment.
The best example is the one President Webb is showing. Get direction first. I'm glad I'm not making decisions on this one. I think the judge is heading for disbarrment.
Anonymous | 8:49 a.m. April 22, 2008
1. If the volume of motions is too large for one judge to handle expeditiously,
she should request help from a judge in a neighboring jurisdiction. I am not
necessarily sympathetic about her being overloaded and recommend calling a
reinforcement or two.
2. I am not an expert, but I think the monitored prayers mean the judge is treating FLDS folks just like she would treat any other parents whose children have been removed. At first the only visits between parents and children will be supervised. Parents do not have to like it but they can participate in identifying people acceptable to both sides to supervise.
3. Who might be acceptable? CPS workers with LDS background? First amendment fanatics from a variety of religions? CPS workers working with someone from the FLDS / LDS / Baptists / Catholics / Hindus / Sikhs....
4. The scale of this case is unique, but I do not think the way things are working differs markedly from many other CPS interventions. That is I think the general level of CPS behavior can be pretty outrageous and it is not obvious to me that FLDS are being singled out for anything worse than average.
2. I am not an expert, but I think the monitored prayers mean the judge is treating FLDS folks just like she would treat any other parents whose children have been removed. At first the only visits between parents and children will be supervised. Parents do not have to like it but they can participate in identifying people acceptable to both sides to supervise.
3. Who might be acceptable? CPS workers with LDS background? First amendment fanatics from a variety of religions? CPS workers working with someone from the FLDS / LDS / Baptists / Catholics / Hindus / Sikhs....
4. The scale of this case is unique, but I do not think the way things are working differs markedly from many other CPS interventions. That is I think the general level of CPS behavior can be pretty outrageous and it is not obvious to me that FLDS are being singled out for anything worse than average.
Nice Judge | 8:50 a.m. April 22, 2008
Maybe she could restore polygamy to the LDS Church.
I mean, they are really just the same church.
I mean, they are really just the same church.
From Wanda | 8:58 a.m. April 22, 2008
"Hello" Do the FLDS really follow the Book of Momon? I hardly doubt
it. And an LDS person would not understand anything about the FLDS. They (FLDS)
don't even celebrate Easter or Christmas. Maybe uh... let's see
...Hilary and Obama should over see their prayers! they would have just about as
much in common with this sect , as the LDS people would.
Also someone should investigate this judge and find out why she isn't more educated or better yet what grudge she is trying to work out...
Also someone should investigate this judge and find out why she isn't more educated or better yet what grudge she is trying to work out...
Mohan | 9:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
Paul taught the Romans that he is not a Jew who is not one inwardly; (in
example) and who's circumcision is that of the heart. So we also know that
he is not a Christian who is likewise not able to be one by example and
practice, one who is willing to show love and "do His will" because he
desires in his heart and through his actions to bless all people. So, it
appears the LDS Christians may get an opportunity to be Christians in very deed
to these who have admittedly rejected LDS teachings. What an example that would
be. Perhaps this is what the Savior Jesus Christ meant when he said,
"Which now of these was neighbour unto him that fell among thieves? And he
said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou
likewise." What a directive for Mormons, and for all would be Christians.
It's all about action.
Tough Call | 9:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
Wow! The judge put the LDS Church in a spot. There is no good answer here.
If the Church agrees, they are basically being asked to spy on the FLDS which effectively puts them right in the in the middle of the controversy between CPS and the FLDS. Bad idea. Church leaders have issued several statements trying to differentiate between the FLDS and LDS, and it appears that they would just as soon not be involved.
On the other hand, the Church will be criticized if they refuse to assist the community and policy is to render aid when needed. If they back away from the request, it could be misconstrued as support for the FLDS by refusing to monitor them. If the FLDS would be receptive to LDS members praying with them, then from a humanitarian standpoint at least it would be a gesture between individuals of somewhat similar faith---even though the LDS Church does not condone the FLDS practices.
Tough position to be in, glad it�s not me. SLC HQ has got to be chaffing over the request.
If the Church agrees, they are basically being asked to spy on the FLDS which effectively puts them right in the in the middle of the controversy between CPS and the FLDS. Bad idea. Church leaders have issued several statements trying to differentiate between the FLDS and LDS, and it appears that they would just as soon not be involved.
On the other hand, the Church will be criticized if they refuse to assist the community and policy is to render aid when needed. If they back away from the request, it could be misconstrued as support for the FLDS by refusing to monitor them. If the FLDS would be receptive to LDS members praying with them, then from a humanitarian standpoint at least it would be a gesture between individuals of somewhat similar faith---even though the LDS Church does not condone the FLDS practices.
Tough position to be in, glad it�s not me. SLC HQ has got to be chaffing over the request.
Wanted | 9:01 a.m. April 22, 2008
Authentic Christian to monitor religious paractise and report findings to state
authorities. Understanding of prayer required, understanding of the constitution
discouraged.
To: JAR (4:40 am) et al | 9:09 a.m. April 22, 2008
You're not thinking. Sure, you're quick to praise Texan authorities
for breaking up a "cult" based on trumped up (that means made up)
charges. Why? Because you don't like 'em?
My favorite Baptist minister refers to the LDS Church as a cult. Does that give license to the government to break up our community? According to you it does.
Help me understand why it's okay to deny the people in a "cult" the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" Since when are they guilty until proven innocent? If it's okay to deny them their rights, then it must be okay that you be denied yours. Right?
I've heard and read a lot of opinion that these people are guilty of multiple crimes from brainwashing to pedophilia, but so far the authorities in Texas haven't charged anyone with violating any law. This should be an outrage, but I guess if it doesn't involve you, it's okay.
Think, bro. It just might affect you someday. But, by then it will be too late.
My favorite Baptist minister refers to the LDS Church as a cult. Does that give license to the government to break up our community? According to you it does.
Help me understand why it's okay to deny the people in a "cult" the right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?" Since when are they guilty until proven innocent? If it's okay to deny them their rights, then it must be okay that you be denied yours. Right?
I've heard and read a lot of opinion that these people are guilty of multiple crimes from brainwashing to pedophilia, but so far the authorities in Texas haven't charged anyone with violating any law. This should be an outrage, but I guess if it doesn't involve you, it's okay.
Think, bro. It just might affect you someday. But, by then it will be too late.
its_Chet | 9:08 a.m. April 22, 2008
This is to be expected. When the government is abusing the people with Gestapo like tactics, the evidence and means of communicating what is happening must be confiscated. Truth can be such a bothersome obstacle to tyranny.
Wanda | 9:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
This judge is just trying to drag in the LDS.
What should we do if their prayer is out of line??
Fish or Cut Bait | 9:10 a.m. April 22, 2008
Texas has torn mothers away from their children, children away from their
mothers. All because of a hoax call. In cases of demonstratable abuse, protect
the child. If they don't have it, why is this happening? Why are mothers
being told that their kids will be placed in foster care and up for adoption?
The American revolution was fought for less motivation, less oppression from government than this.
Why is no one speaking up? Where is the ACLU?, where are citizen voices from the entire United States? Where is the news media?
The American revolution was fought for less motivation, less oppression from government than this.
Why is no one speaking up? Where is the ACLU?, where are citizen voices from the entire United States? Where is the news media?
Utah Dem | 9:09 a.m. April 22, 2008
I don't see a problem with church HQ allowing the local Saints to
'supervise' prayers of the FLDS, but I hope the judge doesn't ask
for reports back as to what is said.
Angry southern boy | 9:10 a.m. April 22, 2008
i got no idea what a FLDS is or even a LDS is or the difference between the two,
what I do understand is that there are babies who have been kidnapped and need
their mother's milk. My son would not take to formula, once he went off his
mothers milk he never touched milk again. At 10 months old he would have
starved. This situation is a horror show. God save the children. Please.
And if you need someone to join up and march on the courthouse, let me know. I got a long list of friends that might like to take an early vacation. We are angry boys!
And if you need someone to join up and march on the courthouse, let me know. I got a long list of friends that might like to take an early vacation. We are angry boys!
PR | 9:18 a.m. April 22, 2008
And....Public Relations wins again!! Anyone half awake knows that image and
public relations has been the driving force of literally everything the LDS
Church has done over the last 50 years. In the end, however, it will be a missed
opportunity to BOTH show that we are different from the FLDS but also that we
are compassionate, empathize with those harmed by the ramifications of doctrine
WE started, and care about the well-being of these families no matter what the
"consultants" in SLC advise. Common LDS Church, step up to the plate
and recognize that everyone knows we are not the FLDS but everyone is also smart
enough to know if not for us there would be no FLDS so it makes sense to show
some Christlike compassion over image, image, image.
Nice Try | 9:12 a.m. April 22, 2008
I find it very odd that the judge would ask someone of any specific faith to
"pray" with these women. If they have nothing to hide, the current
people there monitoring everything else would serve just fine. This is an
underhanded way for the FLDS women to manipulate this situation to coach and
"abuse" their children without being overseen. I as an LDS member
feel that asking anyone of any faith is putting someone in a situation where
they would have to report any misconduct during the "prayer" time. To
be put in that position is not fair to anyone. Especially for a religion that
is constantly grouped with the FLDS unfairly. Let the officials that are being
paid and have been trained to monitor this do their job. They have prayed for
the last 3 weeks without a request for a buffer. If they want this to be over,
they should start telling the truth about who they are, how old they are, and
which children belong to which children.
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Attorney Julie Balovich, representing FLDS mothers whose children were taken from the YFZ compound, speaks to the media after a hearing at the Tom Green County Courthouse in San Angelo. She wants to reunite children and mothers.
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Perhaps the ACLU could monitor the prayer time? Since they know so much about that particular subject.