Reader comments
Texas judge asks LDS Church to monitor FLDS prayer times
137 comments | Read story
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
John Lambert | 10:39 p.m. April 21, 2008
to to ac:
You would have fit right in with the 19th century anti-Mormon writers. You are trying to use the evidence that they have found no girl with broken bones to prove that the FLDS killed her.
Just because you think that all reclusive sects have a homicidal tendency does not make it so. I have yet to see any evidence that the FLDS killed anyone. You can not use the lack of evidence for a crime to make baseless accusations of a bigger crime.
You would have fit right in with the 19th century anti-Mormon writers. You are trying to use the evidence that they have found no girl with broken bones to prove that the FLDS killed her.
Just because you think that all reclusive sects have a homicidal tendency does not make it so. I have yet to see any evidence that the FLDS killed anyone. You can not use the lack of evidence for a crime to make baseless accusations of a bigger crime.
WillF | 10:47 p.m. April 21, 2008
My wife has breastfed our five children, and I am sold on the benefits nursing
has for children through my observation of how it has helped them.
Intentionally stopping a mother from breastfeeding her child is abuse plain and simple. The alternative is to 1) feed them something that does not even come close in nutritional value and may even mean getting a disease they would not have otherwise in the future, and 2) deprive them of the bonding and security that comes from the spiritual time spent at a mother's breast.
I cannot believe the callousness of the judge in this regard.
Intentionally stopping a mother from breastfeeding her child is abuse plain and simple. The alternative is to 1) feed them something that does not even come close in nutritional value and may even mean getting a disease they would not have otherwise in the future, and 2) deprive them of the bonding and security that comes from the spiritual time spent at a mother's breast.
I cannot believe the callousness of the judge in this regard.
Comments continue below
Stephen | 10:55 p.m. April 21, 2008
I imagine that the Texas authorities and FBI will make a case, against this
religion. You know like the FBI did at Ruby Ridge and Waco. If they keep the
children long enough these terrorist tactics, will definately turn the children
into zombies. Go ahead and point your fingers at this religion, but your
religion could be suspect too. If need be. You may be visited with men in full
battle gear, and armored personnel carriers. This is a travesty, to abduct all
children and babies of a community.
Absolutely Appalled | 11:01 p.m. April 21, 2008
437 children have been abducted from their families and no one of any
consequence is doing anything to make this right.
Yes, it is 437, not 416. The CPS' lame excuse for giving the wrong count for the past couple weeks? "The initial count was taken when we had five shelters operating and no way to get an accurate count," said CPS spokesman Daniel Azar."
CPS is not even competent enough to have an accurate count of how many children they stole away. WOW.
No *evidence* of any actual abuse after scouring their homes and sacred religious spaces, monitoring their family prayers and every interaction, sequestering children as young as 4 years old from their mothers and interrogating them, etc.
Now I understand that nursing children will be pulled from their mother's arms in a few days.
Yes, it is 437, not 416. The CPS' lame excuse for giving the wrong count for the past couple weeks? "The initial count was taken when we had five shelters operating and no way to get an accurate count," said CPS spokesman Daniel Azar."
CPS is not even competent enough to have an accurate count of how many children they stole away. WOW.
No *evidence* of any actual abuse after scouring their homes and sacred religious spaces, monitoring their family prayers and every interaction, sequestering children as young as 4 years old from their mothers and interrogating them, etc.
Now I understand that nursing children will be pulled from their mother's arms in a few days.
Where is President Bush? | 11:03 p.m. April 21, 2008
Mr. President. It seems we have a disaster here. It is time you flew into this
makeshift camp and viewed first hand what some Americans are going through.
Then, Mr. President, you can set up a workable compasionate plan. How much
damage and how much chaos needs to occur before you intervene? The person quilty
of the most child abuse here seems to be the Judge, who is obviously too
stressed to handle the magnitude of this. So, she gets up and walks away...How
would it be, when you are just fed up, to have the American freedom to
'walk away.' Who is showing real restraint here? Mr Bush...It is your
job to view this hazardess sight. Tornados have done less damage and you flew in
to assess the aftermath. These are all American citizens.
Matthew | 11:02 p.m. April 21, 2008
I see this has turned into mainly FLDS blog. These people are using their
propaganda brainwashing tactics on here with LDS members just as they do on
their own children. Some of the FLDS men pose as Grannies, Mama's and what
knot's. But what else can anyone expect from men who hide behind womens
skirts their entire lives. They are the biggest darn cowards ever created.
I hope they are seen sooner or later for what they truly are.
I hope they are seen sooner or later for what they truly are.
GoodGuyGary | 11:05 p.m. April 21, 2008
When people critizing China, they said it has no human right. But look at these
FLDS mess, where is the human right? Or human rights got abused by the FLDS
men?
John Lambert | 11:13 p.m. April 21, 2008
TO the person who thinks it was Mormoni who delivered the message in favor of
polygamy, that may be true but I am unaware that Joseph ever said that Mormoni
was identified as the angel who brought the message.
Mormoni's identified messages were not on those lines.
It is Wilford Woodruff, not John Taylor, who ends polygamy. It should be born in mind that he states that it is no longer authorized. Since polygamy was only ever accepted by the church when done with approval of the church president this was consistent.
You may just be trying to be cutesie, but it mainly seems that you need to study LDS History a whole lot more than you have. I have learned it from men like Ron Esplin and Fred Woods, and from reading and studying, but there is much that I do not know. The Spirit is the key to learning the truth.
Believing is seeing.
Mormoni's identified messages were not on those lines.
It is Wilford Woodruff, not John Taylor, who ends polygamy. It should be born in mind that he states that it is no longer authorized. Since polygamy was only ever accepted by the church when done with approval of the church president this was consistent.
You may just be trying to be cutesie, but it mainly seems that you need to study LDS History a whole lot more than you have. I have learned it from men like Ron Esplin and Fred Woods, and from reading and studying, but there is much that I do not know. The Spirit is the key to learning the truth.
Believing is seeing.
worried american | 11:07 p.m. April 21, 2008
"How would I stop someone from practicing their faith?" wow, looks
like she did a mighty fine job of stoping them already, if this dont break the
Nation, or wake us up, I dont know what will, at least 911 it was a foreign
enemy attacking us.
Adam | 11:15 p.m. April 21, 2008
If the LDS church steps one foot towards these polygamy groups, me and my family
are leaving the church and having our memberships removed! I will not subject my
FOUR daughters to a cult, nor my wife!!
how did we let this happen | 11:10 p.m. April 21, 2008
Well some one can let all the terrorists know they dont need to destroy us
anymore, we will just do it ourselfs, save them the trips., Seriously has anyone
Thought of following the constitution as at least a Guide line?
John Lambert | 11:14 p.m. April 21, 2008
To 6:30
I know this is a bit cynical, but it is the only way that makes sense to me. If the state was to press child abuse charges (like Utah and Arizona did on Warren Jeffs) than they would be bound by principals like "innocent until proven guilty" and providing actual defense attorneys for the accused. They would also have to come up with things like "beyond a resonable doubt". They would also have to identify who the fathers are. All this would take work, and risk loosing the case.
In Child protection cases parents rights are not the same as defendants rights. They are not being tried for a crime, but being judged on if they are fit parents. It is odd that the processes do not overlap, but it is our system. People can be innocent of any crime but unfit parents. This system is open for abuse, and easily manipulated by prank calls and vendettas. On the other hand some argue it is better to have a few children removed from their parents than tolerate more abuse. This issue needs to be addressed through mature and non-vindictive dialogue.
I know this is a bit cynical, but it is the only way that makes sense to me. If the state was to press child abuse charges (like Utah and Arizona did on Warren Jeffs) than they would be bound by principals like "innocent until proven guilty" and providing actual defense attorneys for the accused. They would also have to come up with things like "beyond a resonable doubt". They would also have to identify who the fathers are. All this would take work, and risk loosing the case.
In Child protection cases parents rights are not the same as defendants rights. They are not being tried for a crime, but being judged on if they are fit parents. It is odd that the processes do not overlap, but it is our system. People can be innocent of any crime but unfit parents. This system is open for abuse, and easily manipulated by prank calls and vendettas. On the other hand some argue it is better to have a few children removed from their parents than tolerate more abuse. This issue needs to be addressed through mature and non-vindictive dialogue.
John Lambert | 11:20 p.m. April 21, 2008
What the CPS apologists fail to understand is that most people see taking
someones children away as being as bad as putting them in jail.
The CPS operates on the theory that being a parent is a privalege not a right. Once there are laws or court rulings against an action, they will take measures to suppress anything approaching it.
Many of us feel that this system is wrong. Maybe condemning this action as if it is an aberation when the system itself is seriously flawed is not the best approach.
On the other hand CPS is hoping that people's deep felt prejudices and dislikes for this groups behaviors will cause them to forget that there are civil rights that all individuals have, and that if the state can do this they can start stripping other rights.
Legal rights apply to the guilty as well as the innocent. How did CPS become something other than criminal cases. I am not sure but I think it is high time we considered changing the legal system.
The CPS operates on the theory that being a parent is a privalege not a right. Once there are laws or court rulings against an action, they will take measures to suppress anything approaching it.
Many of us feel that this system is wrong. Maybe condemning this action as if it is an aberation when the system itself is seriously flawed is not the best approach.
On the other hand CPS is hoping that people's deep felt prejudices and dislikes for this groups behaviors will cause them to forget that there are civil rights that all individuals have, and that if the state can do this they can start stripping other rights.
Legal rights apply to the guilty as well as the innocent. How did CPS become something other than criminal cases. I am not sure but I think it is high time we considered changing the legal system.
Shecky | 11:27 p.m. April 21, 2008
Adam: Have you consulted Eve on this one?
John Lambert | 11:35 p.m. April 21, 2008
It is nice to see that Adam at 11:15 has so fully embraced President
Hinckley's message of disagreeing without being disagreeable.
I don't think the church should respond to the judges bizarre request. I think it is totally unfair, and will open the church and the state government up to ACLU suits. Instead she should see about bringing in some trained chaplains. These good be LDS, but only if they are trained chaplains will the church both avoid seeming to secretly support this group and the judge will avoid opening the state up for supporting a religion suits.
Although at times I have accused the judge of being malicious, I now think she is just plain stupid.
I don't think the church should respond to the judges bizarre request. I think it is totally unfair, and will open the church and the state government up to ACLU suits. Instead she should see about bringing in some trained chaplains. These good be LDS, but only if they are trained chaplains will the church both avoid seeming to secretly support this group and the judge will avoid opening the state up for supporting a religion suits.
Although at times I have accused the judge of being malicious, I now think she is just plain stupid.
Adam | 11:31 p.m. April 21, 2008
Watch what you threaten or your own brethren just might haul you in for a little
court session. You took a vow to sustain and support the leaders. Now, at
general conference the apostles took great care to put emphasis on the fact that
LDS are Christian and believe in the teachings of Christ. So. Ask yourself? What
would Jesus Do? Would he be sitting in the midst of them or threatening to leave
if they came near? Are you trying to be like Jesus? Or are you trying to become
polygamyphobic. You sound controlling towards your wife and daughters. They are
all God's children believe it or not. And the' greatest man on earth
save Jesus himself' started this whole thing. How much Church history do
you know. I hope you are not "brainwshed" and follow blindly.
Reno | 1:03 a.m. April 22, 2008
I am sickened that mothers are separated from their nursing children.
That's so wrong. Shame on the officials who have them separated.
jimmy | 5:34 a.m. April 22, 2008
I think you dont understand her request. The judge is requesting a LDS member
supervise since both the LDS and FLDS use the book of Mormon. So, if the
mom's tried to pull something saying it's part of their worship, an
LDS member would be able to spot it. Your average Baptist has no clue.
So seriously, quite being so up in arms about it and nominate somebody to go do this job already.
So seriously, quite being so up in arms about it and nominate somebody to go do this job already.
To Adam | 6:20 a.m. April 22, 2008
Would you leave the Church if they "took one step forward" and prayed
with Catholics? Do you realize that some of the people that escape from the
FLDS church successfully transition to the LDS church? There is a conversion
process, but how is that different than any other person that moves from one
religion to LDS? Do you really expect the Church to turn a blind eye to our
fellow man? WWJD?
My mother considered the LDS a Cult when she was not able to attend the weddings of her daughters. So be careful about the wording you chose since it can be used against you as well.
My mother considered the LDS a Cult when she was not able to attend the weddings of her daughters. So be careful about the wording you chose since it can be used against you as well.
The Texan | 7:49 a.m. April 22, 2008
Thank you, but NO THANK YOU.
The LDS church should stay as far away from this as possible.
The LDS church should stay as far away from this as possible.
Todd | 8:11 a.m. April 22, 2008
These comments just prove that there are many Mormons who are NOT Christians.
You people should be ashamed of yourselves. Just help out your fellowman without
worrying about how it looks. What are you, just a public relations machine?
Sickening.
Sickening.
Carol Ca | 9:00 a.m. April 22, 2008
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, based in Salt Lake Ut. The
Pres. of that church is Pres. Thomas S. Monson. They do not belive in any thing
that that FLDS belive. Please let the people of this world understand that there
is a differance and I'm sure that all faiths would like to help these
little children the best way thay can. The cripled adults are also in need of
help also. Please remember who horrifying the Jim Jones faith became. Thoes poor
people wanted the right thing but were so brain washed that they couldn't
even think for themselves, don't these sound a lot like them.Let us be a
loving nation with hope for these people and try to help our fellow kind.
My heart goes out to these people that have needed to be loved so bad that they have lost the ability to make choices for there selves.
So sorry for them.
My heart goes out to these people that have needed to be loved so bad that they have lost the ability to make choices for there selves.
So sorry for them.
To Todd | 9:06 a.m. April 22, 2008
I'm LDS and I think it's a bad idea. I'll support whatever the
leadership of my church decides to do, however. We have enough problems with
people confusing us with the FLDS and polygamy, without further muddying the
waters. Just the fact that the clueless judge is asking is proof of that.
Also to respond to jimmy at 5:34am - I doubt an LDS member would know if something was "being pulled" as part of FLDS worship - they left the church a very long time ago. Our own services have changed formats and customs in that time, why wouldn't theirs?
Also to respond to jimmy at 5:34am - I doubt an LDS member would know if something was "being pulled" as part of FLDS worship - they left the church a very long time ago. Our own services have changed formats and customs in that time, why wouldn't theirs?
Dave | 10:23 a.m. April 22, 2008
what does FLDS mean?
concerned | 11:04 a.m. April 22, 2008
Hey what about the 16 year old girl who may or may not have called? I do believe
a young girl called about her abuse, but where is she now?? Are athorities
trying to locate her or make sure she is in the group? I read that the girls at
the flds ranch said they knew her but hadn't seen her in a couple days.
Isnt it possible that she is locked up somewhere?? What do you all think?
Raymond Takashi Swenson | 11:28 a.m. April 22, 2008
The judge apparently thinks she can enlist actual LDS people to act as
"prayer monitors", specifically to sub for the Child Protective
Services and prevent mothers from talking to their children. That is
ridiculous. Why should the LDS Church get coopted in that way? If they did
what the judge wants, they will be hated by the FLDS, and if they don't,
they wil be hated by the judge. It is a no-win situation.
It DOES show how high-handed and tyrannical the judge is. What legal authority does she have to prevent mothers from communicating with their minor children? She in fact has made NO legally valid finding with respect to any individual mother. None of the mothers has had a legally valid personal hearing, but they have been tried en masse, the guilt of one being made the guilt of all. That is religious discrimination and a denial of due process of law. Deprivation of free speech, especially with one's own child, is a serious punishment not even imposed on most convicted felons.
The small children do not face imminent danger, and the court has a duty to first attempt interventions that do not damage mother-child care.
It DOES show how high-handed and tyrannical the judge is. What legal authority does she have to prevent mothers from communicating with their minor children? She in fact has made NO legally valid finding with respect to any individual mother. None of the mothers has had a legally valid personal hearing, but they have been tried en masse, the guilt of one being made the guilt of all. That is religious discrimination and a denial of due process of law. Deprivation of free speech, especially with one's own child, is a serious punishment not even imposed on most convicted felons.
The small children do not face imminent danger, and the court has a duty to first attempt interventions that do not damage mother-child care.
Anonymous | 12:46 p.m. April 22, 2008
"If they cross the line or coach the child or make any kind of comment on
litigation, all bets are off," Walther said. so...what kind of comments on
litigation are we talking about, "bless the judge to rule righteously"
or "help us to remain faith full to our teachings" or "bless our
parents".....could comments like this cause them to be unable to pray???
MGuthrie | 2:23 p.m. April 22, 2008
My comment was monitored as not publishable in this context. In brief, my
sister is in jail and her "spiritual husbend" is in jail for life. It
was proven in court that he, as a man 50 years senior to my niece, as well as my
sister, forced my niece to have underage sex. This is very unsetting to me, to
say the least. I sincerely pray that all such people, wherever they may reside,
be punished for CHILD ENDANGERMENT as were my sister and "spiritual
husband". I am not commenting on anything that is not on public record in
Phoenix, AZ. I pray that all offenders be justly treated.
Greg Walker | 11:03 a.m. April 23, 2008
I suggest that MORMONS listen to the Judge in the case and help-out. Monitor
the prayers of the FLDS mothers and children. The LDS Church should not try and
distant itself from this case, for it is like a lion trying to run away from
it's tail. The best can be done if the LDS Church and the members of the
LDS Church actively involve themselves in assisting the Texas court system. The
members of the FLDS Church are crying out to the Lord for deliverance. Yes,
they also may include members of the LDS Church as apart of the so-called
Outside World; but it is imperative that Mormons keep service in their hearts
and assist when it is needed. The FLDS members may not generally trust LDS
members, but they recognize that in these desporate times the LDS Church members
(Mormons) may be the instrument of the Lord's power on earth. The FLDS
members are now reaching out for assistance because the most precious part of
their lives is being interrupted and destroyed. The FLDS members' children
are being taken away by Government Agency Workers. The FLDS Church members
recognize that they are in dire straits.
The Texan | 11:41 a.m. April 23, 2008
If they said Yes, you'd crucify them.
If they said No, you'd crucify them.
Big choice? NO, thank you.
If they said No, you'd crucify them.
Big choice? NO, thank you.
Adam you should | 1:00 p.m. April 24, 2008
not step one foot into their organization or into their lifestyle. What you
should do is pray for them and pray for yourself. What they are is what your
church came from and what they still secretly believe. They believe that when
people die that this will be practiced. All our prayers should be for
organizations and people that feel this way and for the poor people that
don't know.
F. Flores | 2:18 p.m. April 27, 2008
FLDS life Caralyn and Flora Jessop said: no color red allowed, I saw numerous
American flags with red strips at the FLDS Farm they said they would freak out
at the color red. No crayons allowed or toys, the FLDS woman who showed us a
scrap book her daughter made was colored with crayons and I saw the children
with stuffed animal toys as they left the Farm CRYING. No communication allowed,
CPS said they took cell phones away from FLDS children because they were talking
to their Mothers? Not allowed to leave the Farm, I saw FLDS mothers with their
children at markets and shopping with their children in Eldorado? Is all of
America brain dead and blind? Look at all the lies being told! Take time to look
at the old media video, look behind the scenes I saw computers in the room the
FLDS woman shared with the media. How did the FLDS families obtain food stamps
and welfare if you have no birth certificates or social security numbers? If
Eldorado is giving out food stamps and welfare without proof, illegal Mexicans
should get in line.
Marie Bee | 6:58 p.m. May 3, 2008
Did it ever occure to ANYONE that these young girls who are pregnant got that
way by being with young, underage boys, the very boys who get kicked out. The
boy's fathers then often take the yound ladies into their household to
provide a respectable place for their grandchild to be born, and raise that
child as thier own. I know. I'm a member who left and am now with my then
boyfriend. This is their real secret. They don't want the world to know
that even thier young teens find a way to do it. Not much criminal is going on.
Just mutual juvenile sex. Same as always. Remember, there isn't a lot of
other recreational activity on the ranch.
k | 7:53 p.m. May 29, 2008
From what I understand about Texas Law. The Parents of the Child must be
determined before any reuniting can occur. If a non FLDS non married couple
have a child that was taken away because of reports of child abuse. The State
of Texas is required to find out the father and the mother in order to check the
background of each of the parents. What if the woman had a new boyfriend that
was doing the abuse. The State must determine paternity in order to send the
children home.
From what I understand many of the women have stepped up and provided DNA tests to claim their children. I have not heard of the men doing the same. If the State can not determine paternity and assure that the father in question is not guilty of under age child rape. Then the children will not be returned. So step up men show your wifes you love them. If you love your wifes and children take the tests. If not your wifes will soon figure out you are just protecting your own skin. Stand up and be Fathers.
From what I understand many of the women have stepped up and provided DNA tests to claim their children. I have not heard of the men doing the same. If the State can not determine paternity and assure that the father in question is not guilty of under age child rape. Then the children will not be returned. So step up men show your wifes you love them. If you love your wifes and children take the tests. If not your wifes will soon figure out you are just protecting your own skin. Stand up and be Fathers.
Rondi | 9:24 p.m. Aug. 17, 2008
I believe all these children were living happy lives. Maybe different from ours,
but still a family lifestyle to them with plenty of love and care. We have many
young girls with Kids in Jr. high here and NOTHING is done about that!!
Let's all pray that the court sends these children back to their home. How
cold have we Americans become, to NOT care and judge others in such a way. We
are NOT without sin.. Nothing is as special as a birth mothers love for her
child.. God have pity on America for been so cold and cruel, to take these kids
from their Mothers. May prayers are with the Mothers, Dad's and children. I
am asking the Mom's, Dad's and Kid's to forgive the state of
Texas for all they done. Most of us Americans are really sorry and disagree.
Anonymous | 11:31 a.m. Oct. 27, 2008
Be sure to understand that the FLDS is a completely seperate organization from
the LDS. It is ludicris to hold LDS in any connection with the problem.
- Page:
- < Previous
- 1
- 2
- 3
Add your comment
Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.
Words Remaining
E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.
Texas State Troopers run the gate of the San Angelo Coliseum where security is extremely tight. Authorities have begun collecting DNA samples from children taken from the Fundamentalist LDS Church's YFZ Ranch.
Related content
- Rabbis join NJ gay marriage debate 9:03 a.m.
- Afghan buildup on faster timetable 9:01 a.m.
- Salahi denies crashing W.H. party 8:58 a.m.
- Suspect in police slayings killed 8:55 a.m.
- Arrests made in Roy slayings 8:35 a.m.
- Bowden meeting with school officials 8:01 a.m.
- FIFA: Ireland won't be in WCup 8:00 a.m.
- Florida's Dunlap arrested, charged 8:00 a.m.
- Stocks climb early as dollar slides 7:59 a.m.
- China: Talk, not sanctions on Iran 7:49 a.m.
- Hall reprimanded by MWC
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal
- Utes won't respond to Hall
- 2 citations issued at Y.-U. game
- Cougs begin bowl preparations
- Mitchell called intelligent, controlling
- Y. student vanished in China
- Max Hall issues apology
- Daughter: Mitchell fed me my pet
- BYU says Hall incident resolved
- Hall mouths off about hate of Utah
899 - Cougars beat Utes in overtime481
- Hall reprimanded by MWC384
- Max Hall issues apology382
- Hall's pain reflects self-betrayal317
- Utes won't respond to Hall264
- BYU is champion of the state140
- Man trapped in Nutty Putty cave dies123
- Cave to be sealed with body inside120
- Religion in politics is tiresome113
Live 'Twittologue' Dec. 2, 4:00 p.m. with Jason Chaffetz. Click for more.
I wanted to tell them not to go. I dropped subtle hints. "My money is on...
When I was a kid, I worshipped my grandpa. He was undoubtedly my hero....
Latest comments
So, if I have a stomach ache, headache, bachache, etc, or any other basic...
Hey is'nt that self defence? When somebody threatens to do bodily harm, Than...
This spoken from the ponderous hills of Draper whilst looking down on the...
When Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries allows a christian to carry the...
I am shocked and appalled that Max would suddenly act like a bad Utah fan.
Mike you took the time out of your day to criticize his grammar? He spoke...
Actually not all prophets come off as grandiose and mad... Thomas S....
I am so sick of the apologists for both schools. Both schools have a fan base...
Why don't we just go back to being better parents. If we do a better job of...
Seriously, let the old kodger go. Studies and social experiments have shown...
Advertisements
I am glad the ACLU have started speaking up, but it seems like at every turn the lawyers pleas are cramped.
One thing that is not clear at all. Would the FLDS feel that LDS people present would be OK. The judge seems to not even have bothered to ask the woen if they would accept such a situation.