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Texas LDS deal with confusion
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AZMom | 10:29 a.m. April 21, 2008
It's my understanding that tithing is not a commandment for these
fundamentalists. It's an optional thing. That's a huge difference
between that group and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Most of
these people have never been members of the LDS Church. They broke off from the
LDS Church in the 1930's - 78 years ago!
re: John Lambert | 10:31 a.m. April 21, 2008
I basicly agree with your comment about current LDS attitudes toward
polygamy.
I think the possibility that an individual, at any point in their eternal existance, will have occasion to personally deal with polygamy is inversely proportional to the amount of time or energy the spend thinking about it.
I think the possibility that an individual, at any point in their eternal existance, will have occasion to personally deal with polygamy is inversely proportional to the amount of time or energy the spend thinking about it.
Christians? | 10:44 a.m. April 21, 2008
Until the LDS church abandons its practice of defending its history of polygamy,
they are never going to be considered a Christian church. They all know you
believe it will be present in Heaven. You can consider yourselves Christian,
but no one else does. Sorry.
Comments continue below
Bill Phillips | 10:43 a.m. April 21, 2008
I have just read some staggeringly ignorant posts from people who obviously know
nothing about the LDS faith. They also know very little about the various
splinter groups that cropped up after the death of Joseph Smith and after the
1890 Proclamation ending polygomy. I guess a GED education won't get you
much but you can post stupid opionions.
Jacob | 10:54 a.m. April 21, 2008
Who decides who is Christians? I think that is up to God.
yes Bill Phillips | 10:57 a.m. April 21, 2008
you prove that you can
One Not Confused | 10:57 a.m. April 21, 2008
Ref: Earnest T. Bass
Earnest T..... Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...Render unto God what is God's. Do not confuse The Government of the United States with the Kingdom of God......the Later will prevail.....let God decide... when.
Earnest T..... Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's...Render unto God what is God's. Do not confuse The Government of the United States with the Kingdom of God......the Later will prevail.....let God decide... when.
Don | 11:00 a.m. April 21, 2008
RE: Christians; I could care less what you thought,
or what the rest of supposed Christians think.
or what the rest of supposed Christians think.
To Don | 11:05 a.m. April 21, 2008
You may not care, but the LDS church does.
Mona | 11:14 a.m. April 21, 2008
Re: Strong Evidence:
How would the authorities know whether the phone call was a hoax until an investigation is done? After the fact it's easy to criticize the authorities for acting on a hoax (if that's what it is proved to be), but are you suggesting that children should have been left in possible harm's way while the investigation was done?
How would the authorities know whether the phone call was a hoax until an investigation is done? After the fact it's easy to criticize the authorities for acting on a hoax (if that's what it is proved to be), but are you suggesting that children should have been left in possible harm's way while the investigation was done?
Christians? | 11:18 a.m. April 21, 2008
Actually it will be a great deal more than that. For a start that salvation is
through Christ along and not associated with any human effort. Belief in Christ
as the son of GOD, his death on the cross and resurrection on the third day is
the only thing that can save a person. No human work on earth can be substituted
for this.
Double Standard? | 11:23 a.m. April 21, 2008
As LDS church members, we need to be very careful in this situation. I
completely understand our need and desire to distinguish ourselves from the
FLDS, and to reduce or eliminate confusion in the minds of the media and public.
But, I would hope we could do so while still showing the kind of compassion,
sympathy and understanding we hope others will show us. When our comments about
the FLDS exhibit the same discrimination and spite that others sometimes display
towards us, we become hypocrites and lose any right to complain about those
offenses. I fear that many of the comments I have seen here and elsewhere fall
dangerously close to that standard. In the end, our religion doesn't
require us to agree with the FLDS, but as pointed out by others here, it does
require us to tolerate them, love them, and allow them to worship as they see
fit. If we can't treat them that way, we have no right to ask others to
treat us that way.
John Lambert | 11:26 a.m. April 21, 2008
For those of you who think that there is no confusion of LDS and FLDS read
through the petition to have the children returned. People say things like
"I do not agree with the LDS church and their beliefs". Clearly
people do not understand that LDS and FLDS are different.
One Not Confused | 11:33 a.m. April 21, 2008
Ref: Jake
Just because the FLDS church has many similarities, does not obligate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to rescue them from their own willful disobedience to the laws of the land....Had you mentioned standing up to the real issue, then your point might possibly have some validity. That issue of course, being the fact that an overzealous judicial system is over extending it's authority.....especially so, in light of a possible tainted search warrant used to blanket search an entire religious body versus specific individuals suspected of various presumed and alledged activities contrary to law.
The Church and the General Authorities have every right to dissociate the entire main body of the Church from radical associations who choose not to be subject to the laws of the land.
Your oppurtunity to either uphold and support the Church"s position occurred during the recent Solumn Assembly.....so either you did support the General Authorities or you didn't?don't.
Just because the FLDS church has many similarities, does not obligate the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints to rescue them from their own willful disobedience to the laws of the land....Had you mentioned standing up to the real issue, then your point might possibly have some validity. That issue of course, being the fact that an overzealous judicial system is over extending it's authority.....especially so, in light of a possible tainted search warrant used to blanket search an entire religious body versus specific individuals suspected of various presumed and alledged activities contrary to law.
The Church and the General Authorities have every right to dissociate the entire main body of the Church from radical associations who choose not to be subject to the laws of the land.
Your oppurtunity to either uphold and support the Church"s position occurred during the recent Solumn Assembly.....so either you did support the General Authorities or you didn't?don't.
Not About Polygamy | 11:41 a.m. April 21, 2008
Contrary to the assertions of many, this episode is not about polygamy. It is
about child abuse, plain and simple. The confusion about the issue is the main
reason for the confusion about the churches. It is unlikely the authorities ever
would have intervened just to stop the FLDS from practicing polygamy. The
intervention came because of allegations (so far unproven) that underage girls
were being forced to marry and bear children. Polygamy has often been practiced
without child abuse, and monogamists are quite frequently guilty of child abuse.
To associate the two in the way many have done is unfair and confusing.
Re: Double Standard | 11:41 a.m. April 21, 2008
There is a difference in not agreeing with their religion and tolerating them to
abuse children. When older men are marrying children the law has to put a stop
to it now. These children deserve to be raised without the programming that
goes on in this particular law breaking cult. The whole group should be put
into therapy immediately and then the mothers should be placed on probation
where if they meet certain criteria (ie: getting away from the cult) they will
then be able to get their children back.
Thank you Christians? | 11:36 a.m. April 21, 2008
After reading all of these contentious posts I needed that. I have accepted
Jesus as my Savior. I pray that you all will find that peace too.
NO ! . Double Standard? | 11:37 a.m. April 21, 2008
FLDS is not about worship and there is nothing about the behavior that should be
tolerated.
It is about bigamy and child abuse and welfare fraud and lying and cheating.
Don't be naive or gullible for every predator hiding behind "religion".
It is about bigamy and child abuse and welfare fraud and lying and cheating.
Don't be naive or gullible for every predator hiding behind "religion".
its_Chet | 11:46 a.m. April 21, 2008
Here we go again debating whether or not this is about religion (rather
unconvincingly, some of the people who argue that it isn't keep calling
FLDS a cult and saying that they all need to be de-programmed).
We debated this to no forseeable end last week. If you still want to do so, could you please go back to those message boards? This one is about people confusing the FLDS and LDS churches.
Let's please stay on topic.
We debated this to no forseeable end last week. If you still want to do so, could you please go back to those message boards? This one is about people confusing the FLDS and LDS churches.
Let's please stay on topic.
Re: Chet | 12:08 p.m. April 21, 2008
Sorry Chet, The FLDS have more in common with the LDS religion than most would
think. Immagine being from Texas and not knowing anything about these two
religions, it could be easy to get confused...for instance (Both religions think
Joseph Smith was a true prophet, both use the BOM, both either do or have
practiced polygamy, both have temples where only worthy members can attend, both
where garments, both have living prophets, and the ancestors of the FLDS used to
be LDS. As you can see it would be fairly easy to get the two religions
confused.
Try again... | 12:14 p.m. April 21, 2008
The confusion is "owned" by us (LDS people). Our prophet opened this
can of worms and we practiced polygamy from about 1834 to 1904, mostly once we
got to Utah. Now a BREAK OFF sect of our church continues to live this wicked
practice. They live in Utah, then move to Texas. It is not so hard to see how
people who do not pay close attention to religious matters easily make the
mistake that they are dealing with "Mormons" in Texas. I can't
separate the actions of one factions of Baptists from another faction. I
can't separate the actions of the Eastern Orthodox Church from the Roman
Catholic Church. I can't distiguish the actions of the English Episcapelan
Church from the actions of the Minnesota Episcapelan Church. We're going
to be "paying for the mistakes of the past" for a long time.
We'll just have to do our best to: (a) recognize the mistakes of the past;
and (b) not get upset at the confusion; and (c)live our lives the best we can to
offset the negative repercussions of this horrific practice. It happened in our
past, it continues today in break off sects, the confusion will continue.
To Mr. Bass | 12:16 p.m. April 21, 2008
I have been an active member of the LDS church for 53 years. I have served (and
am now serving) in many teaching positions with teenagers and adults. NEVER
have I heard any teachings that polygamy will return shortly or that
'most' Mormons want it to return. Quite the contrary. It is not now,
nor has it ever been, doctrine preached by the General Authorities for at least
as long as I have been around, that we need to prepare for its return!
If you and/or the people you are associating with are 'preaching' this or 'hoping' for its return, you are on a very slippery slope indeed. Individual members of the Church can never receive 'revelation' on behalf of the Church - only the Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the Church - currently Thomas S. Monson!
If you and/or the people you are associating with are 'preaching' this or 'hoping' for its return, you are on a very slippery slope indeed. Individual members of the Church can never receive 'revelation' on behalf of the Church - only the Prophet, Seer and Revelator of the Church - currently Thomas S. Monson!
My Side | 12:18 p.m. April 21, 2008
I am a born and raised member of the LDS church and a returned missionary. When
I was 19 I decided to look into other religions, study and learn for myself the
differences and similarities so I could decide for myself which religion I would
belong to. At no time did my LDS parents discourage me, never have my parents
tried to hide me from the outside world or limit my achievements for the sake of
religion. Never did my parents send me to be subject to a man three times my
age. The LDS faith asks people to study and find out the truth, it seems to me
that for the FLDS it is about instilling fear and keeping all outside influences
away so no other option is known or available. I feel sympathy for those being
subjected to this difficult situation, however if there is no crime being
commited they should not fear the outcome.
Tom | 12:31 p.m. April 21, 2008
I wish these FLDS stories would cease. We mormons do a fine enough job scaring
people away, without this "other" group.
masked_data | 12:40 p.m. April 21, 2008
Whether it's LDS, RLDS, FLDS, NFLDS or whatever, they're still Saints,
right?
Justin | 12:38 p.m. April 21, 2008
I have made a few posts over the past weeks and read many other posts. Much of
what has been posted is polarizing. Now instead of trying to perpetuate my own
opinion of the situation in Texas, I would simply like to try to understand the
various points of view. Very often opinions are stated as fact and
"facts" are proclaimed as if set in stone but are really assumptions
and conclusions. My humble opinion is that crimes have been committed, well
meaning government officials have overstepped their authority, more children and
families are suffering than need be, the men who are proven to have committed
crimes should be punished, and children who have not been abused should be
returned to their families. To those who worry about future abuses, the message
is out, abuse will not be tolerated. You will find that behavior will change.
Prison sentences tend to effect change. If you feel differently, that is okay.
I am sure that your opinion is well reasoned and thought out.
HappyGirl | 12:39 p.m. April 21, 2008
If the FLDS leave their cult - by and large they do not join the LDS church.
Why? Because their religion is NOTHING LIKE OURS!!
There is no association - there are NO similarities.
There is no association - there are NO similarities.
Wrong RE: Chet | 12:44 p.m. April 21, 2008
There is harldy anything in common between the FLDS and LDS People.
LDS people don't live on compounds, they don't wear old fashioned clothes, they don't have "prophets" who break the law and they certainly don't practice polygamy. The differences are so astounding that an observer who can't see the differnce is like an individual standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon claiming it's not a very deep hole.
LDS people don't live on compounds, they don't wear old fashioned clothes, they don't have "prophets" who break the law and they certainly don't practice polygamy. The differences are so astounding that an observer who can't see the differnce is like an individual standing on the edge of the Grand Canyon claiming it's not a very deep hole.
RLDS | 12:45 p.m. April 21, 2008
Now the LDS know the burden the RLDS have been carrying for all these years.
How do I distance myself from my nutty cousin (all one happy mormon family).
re: . Try Again... | 12:54 p.m. April 21, 2008
This is not about paying for the mistakes of the past.
The mistake being paid for here is not dealing with current FLDS illegal polygamy/child abuse/welfare fraud before it scarred so many innocent lives.
The mistake being paid for here is not dealing with current FLDS illegal polygamy/child abuse/welfare fraud before it scarred so many innocent lives.
Family History | 12:57 p.m. April 21, 2008
I have a question, if someone could clarify things for me, I'd appreciate
it. Several years ago a co-worker told me about the LDS Family History Library
and suggested I go and begin doing research, she ran the library. I was under
the impression that family history is very important to the LDS. Today on the
news, two FLDS women (I know, not the same, but came from the same roots) said
the reason the children don't know their last name is because if
they've (the women) been in multiple relationships, the children can take
any last name they want. How can they trace their family history if they do
that?
No Wonder | 12:55 p.m. April 21, 2008
While traveling in Europe annualy, the only thing I hear when people find out
that I live Salt Lake is "how many wifes do you have". It won't
go away in my lie time.
nantz | 12:59 p.m. April 21, 2008
Well said Tom.....it's only going to get worse! Shame we are one of the
same....
Re: Justin | 1:15 p.m. April 21, 2008
If the FLDS practice marrying off under age girls to much older men, than
isn't it the responsibility of the Texas authorities to protect every child
in that situation? The families that are living that religion are guilty by
association. It is very sad that this cult has put these children in harms way
in the first place. I also feel very sorry for the moms because they seem to be
so brain washed.
Alex | 1:16 p.m. April 21, 2008
Tom:
"I wish these FLDS stories would cease. We mormons do a fine enough job scaring people away, without this "other" group. "
Ahh, you worry too much. Any press is good press for the church. Besides, polygamy is a great conversation starter. We need to just take it and don't expect to ever be fully understood by the world. That's life.
"I wish these FLDS stories would cease. We mormons do a fine enough job scaring people away, without this "other" group. "
Ahh, you worry too much. Any press is good press for the church. Besides, polygamy is a great conversation starter. We need to just take it and don't expect to ever be fully understood by the world. That's life.
Re: HappyGirl | 1:15 p.m. April 21, 2008
When the FLDS leave their religion they don't join yours because they are
fed up with organized religion all together. They are very weary about being
hurt by people and organizations that say they are speaking for God. The FLDS
that leave their religion I hope will learn that all of their questions can be
answered by looking within. Anyone who has to look outside of themselves for
answers is being lead astray.
Anonymous | 1:15 p.m. April 21, 2008
What is the mormon's problem?
They've been trying since day one to set themselves apart.
So - mission accomplished.
They've been trying since day one to set themselves apart.
So - mission accomplished.
Gayle | 1:25 p.m. April 21, 2008
I live in San Angelo,TX, and not a LDS, but a Methodist. Please rest assured
that only the most ignorant people are lumping the YFZ sect and the LDS
together. Most of us know and enjoy the company of our LDS friends and
neighbors.
It is indeed a tragedy for the children who lived at the YFZ Ranch. We are doing our best to make these children as comfortable and content as possible. It is a little complicated because they are being exposed to a world that is as foreign to them as going to the moon. Bless their innocent hearts. They wouldn't be in this situation if the older men on the Ranch had not taken advantage of the adolescent girls. And yes, there are some pregnant teenagers in the bunch. Blame Warren Jeffs and the elders in his sect. The women are good, loving mothers but are considered accomplices to the sexual misconduct--they stood by and allowed it happen. They will not come forward and claim their children, although they insist they they love and miss them so much. They are protecting the men once again. So the DNA is the only solution to unravel the mess.
It is indeed a tragedy for the children who lived at the YFZ Ranch. We are doing our best to make these children as comfortable and content as possible. It is a little complicated because they are being exposed to a world that is as foreign to them as going to the moon. Bless their innocent hearts. They wouldn't be in this situation if the older men on the Ranch had not taken advantage of the adolescent girls. And yes, there are some pregnant teenagers in the bunch. Blame Warren Jeffs and the elders in his sect. The women are good, loving mothers but are considered accomplices to the sexual misconduct--they stood by and allowed it happen. They will not come forward and claim their children, although they insist they they love and miss them so much. They are protecting the men once again. So the DNA is the only solution to unravel the mess.
ScottAZ | 1:30 p.m. April 21, 2008
Anonymous......the LDS Church is still trying to set themselves apart from the
FLDS, and by reading this board how can you even begin to say 'mission
accomplished.' It is the misinformed who think they know the LDS Church
that continue to spread rumors and outright lies about the LDS Church that do
not want the 'mission accomplished.' I totally agree with
Alex.....there really is no bad publicity...use it as a tool to start
conversations to dispell the myths and rumors.
William | 1:40 p.m. April 21, 2008
Hope none of this mess gets tied into some of our leaders, perhaps visiting
the "ranch", As Texas will probebly dig deep into this.
Re: Alex | 1:35 p.m. April 21, 2008
I agree with Tom and I would add that it may not be mormons themselves that
scare people away, it is probably the history that is so scary. If the LDS
religion is ever going to be taken seriously it has to come to terms with
it's ugly past.
Freedom_Fighter | 1:41 p.m. April 21, 2008
It's amazing to see how many current LDS members don't have a clue
about their heritage. If Joseph Smith were alive today he's find much more
of what he restored in the FLDS faith than in the current LDS faith. The pure
simple reason the LDS church is trying so hard to distance themselves is because
they are embarrassed about their heritage and justify their current position by
hiding behind a manifesto which was never claimed by Wilford Woodruff, or his
contemporaries, to be a revelation. It was simply an agreement drawn up by
George Q. Cannon and others to satisfy the government so Utah could become a
state. All you LDS people need to do your homework and find out the truth about
the manifesto. There has NEVER been a revelation form GOD that started out,
"To Whom It May Concern." The LDS people should be outraged at the
violations of personal and civil rights in Texas and turn their energy towards
seeing that wrongs are made right instead of adding insult to injury!
Terry O. | 1:44 p.m. April 21, 2008
It is completely understandable that there is confusion over polygamy and
authority in the LDS Church. Joseph Smith left things very ambiguous when it
came to succession in the First Presidency. That is why Sidney Rigdon (First
Counselor for 11 years) was a valid contender to be President when Joseph and
Hyrum (Assistant President) were killed. Brigham Young took over under
controversial circumstances - not at all the clean and miraculous transition
members are taught. The transitions from John Taylor and Wilford Woodruff were
equally "messy". Then the same ambiguity was compounded (no pun
intended) when polygamy was ended. The FIRST Manifesto (1890) merely announced
to the government that the LDS Church was not practicing polygamy. It
wasn't until the SECOND Manifesto (1904?) that sanctions were put in place
for those practicing it. The fact that the First Presidency and Apostles were
all cohabiting with their plural wives between 1890 and 1904, along with some
"secret" ordinations, left the public and general Church membership
unclear whether or not polygamy was part of the Church. On hindsight, it is easy
to claim you would chosen correctly. But in the heat of the time, few of you
would have been clear.
Alex | 1:40 p.m. April 21, 2008
Thanks, Gayle.
TheMadNuker | 1:48 p.m. April 21, 2008
I have a dream, that all the bloggers, can stop falling into trivial issues,and
cease venting their
bigotry, and hate. A lot of people involved in this
FLDS raid have been hurt, are scared, confused, both
men, women and children. What is most important is
the truth, and following constitutional law.
If wrongs have been perpetrated by either side of
the issue, they need to be addressed properly.
I have my perceptions just like anyone, however I do
not know what the true facts are, anymore than the
next person. But please no more unconstructive finger pointing. :-)
bigotry, and hate. A lot of people involved in this
FLDS raid have been hurt, are scared, confused, both
men, women and children. What is most important is
the truth, and following constitutional law.
If wrongs have been perpetrated by either side of
the issue, they need to be addressed properly.
I have my perceptions just like anyone, however I do
not know what the true facts are, anymore than the
next person. But please no more unconstructive finger pointing. :-)
One Not Confused | 1:50 p.m. April 21, 2008
Ref: Family History
Since the FLDS church chooses not to subject themselves to the Laws of the land it can hardly be assumed, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the ability or the responsibility to solve their family history problems.......period.
Since the FLDS church chooses not to subject themselves to the Laws of the land it can hardly be assumed, that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints has the ability or the responsibility to solve their family history problems.......period.
Freedom_Fighter | 1:45 p.m. April 21, 2008
It's amazing how the main stream media can portray all the (Alleged graphic
details), and we as Americans jump on the bandwagon and convict the FLDS BEFORE
ANY proof has been brought out. Let's remember that the government has had
over two weeks now to produce actual proof of wrong doing and has failed to do
so. This is so much like what happened to the early saints in Illinois,
Missouri, Ohio, and New York. It's AMAZING to me that the main stream LDS
people don't see the similarities and rise up in strength and DEMAND that
Texas restore the personal and civil rights to ALL people including the FLDS!!!
WAKE UP AMERICA! Where are the patriots? Today it's the FLDS, tomorrow
it's the LDS and others. Let's not put our head in the sand any
longer. It's time to get these kids back to their parents and deal with
abuse on a case by case basis!!!
stand a little taller | 1:52 p.m. April 21, 2008
To all LDS worried about differentiation I say this; just be the best
"you" possible. Help your neighbors, love your kids, adore your
spouse (only one), support your community, be the best you can be. No one will
ever confuse you of being FLDS at that point. I've lived in Washington
State for 30 years. Not one of my neighbors could ever think I was a
polygamist, child abuser, or radical. I'm just plain 'ol me and
that's what differentiates.
Ozark Bubba | 1:52 p.m. April 21, 2008
I wonder why we criticize the media for the confusion between LDS and FLDS
sects? Why not place the blame for the "confusion" squarely on the
backs who those who initiated and continue to perpetuate that confusion--on the
organizers and leaders of the FLDS group.
They could have chosen a name like the Anti-LDS Mormonites or something similarly appropriate. They can still change their name. After all, the RLDS are now the Community of Christ.
They could have chosen a name like the Anti-LDS Mormonites or something similarly appropriate. They can still change their name. After all, the RLDS are now the Community of Christ.
FYI | 1:58 p.m. April 21, 2008
I am a "Mormon" woman who belongs to the Church of Jesus Christ of
Latter Day Saints (the LDS). I can legitimately use the word "Mormon"
to describe me because I have been baptized into this church, and the church
holds the copyright to the word "Mormon". No other church, no matter
what they think, can use this word. Not only that, no other church, no matter
what they think, has the authority to act in the name of God. This is the
Lord's church.
I fit well into the description that Elder Cook gave about our church; I was 28 when I got married, I hold a masters degree, and have 30+ credits of post graduate work--I'm not uncommon in our religion. Many of my friends fit this same description.
About this unfortunate group of people. My heart goes out to them. I feel many of their rights are being impinged but I don't feel the LDS church should "go to bat for them". That's the ACLU's role. Our church is to teach and succor those in need. We don't usually get involved with legal battles--especially ones that don't involve us.
To Be Continued. . .
I fit well into the description that Elder Cook gave about our church; I was 28 when I got married, I hold a masters degree, and have 30+ credits of post graduate work--I'm not uncommon in our religion. Many of my friends fit this same description.
About this unfortunate group of people. My heart goes out to them. I feel many of their rights are being impinged but I don't feel the LDS church should "go to bat for them". That's the ACLU's role. Our church is to teach and succor those in need. We don't usually get involved with legal battles--especially ones that don't involve us.
To Be Continued. . .
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Moises Andrade watches as Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints missionaries talk with church members on Sunday at the San Angelo Spanish-speaking branch in the Abilene, Texas, stake.
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Anything left of Genghis Khan is trying to change our (your) country, right?...
You're right! BYU should forfeit the win because of his 'words' after the...
I want to personally thank our law enforcement officers who put their lives...
Would the new LDS Ambassador to China be of any help to this family? Just a...
"As I have loved you...."
Max, there are plenty of us out there that feel as you do, you just happen to...
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