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Attorneys representing FLDS looking for custody changes, visitation
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DeepintheHeart | 3:13 p.m. April 18, 2008
Clearly CPS testimony is that being a member of this church is prima facie
evidence you are either a victim or a sexual predator. I do not support the FLDS
in any way, shape or form, but the legal argument the state is using is that
these people's religion is the problem and is justification for removing
all children, whether there is evidence of abuse or not. I'd like to see a
Supreme Court ruling on that. As others have pointed out, an unmarried teen
mother is not uncommon in Dallas, Houston or anywhere else, and we generally
don't take away their children if they keep them clean and healthy. Find
the father and prosecute him, but give the kids to the mothers, even under
supervised conditions if necessary.
Very concerned | 3:24 p.m. April 18, 2008
As I stated before in an earlier post, one of my concerns is with the obvious
religious bigotry that seems to be so inextricably wound up in this
situation.
It is very unfortunate that there seems to be so many posters on this site that are determined to consider anyone that is opposed to the unnecessary removal of unharmed children from their natural homes and families, as a sicko, warped, "devil's own", pro-pedophile, or any of the other demeaning and untruthful labels that some hateful and narrow minded posters on this site have used.
The fact remains that children who are actively being abused, in any form, should be protected and removed from harms way, but this does not mean that all the children in a given community are in harms way and in need of protection, just because some of their neighbors children have been abused. To say that those other children need to be protected from abuse that may, or may not, happen in the next 10-15 years is like saying that all Muslim children should be removed from their families because they might become terrorists. How Ridiculous!
Let's cut out the name calling. It's gets us nowhere.
It is very unfortunate that there seems to be so many posters on this site that are determined to consider anyone that is opposed to the unnecessary removal of unharmed children from their natural homes and families, as a sicko, warped, "devil's own", pro-pedophile, or any of the other demeaning and untruthful labels that some hateful and narrow minded posters on this site have used.
The fact remains that children who are actively being abused, in any form, should be protected and removed from harms way, but this does not mean that all the children in a given community are in harms way and in need of protection, just because some of their neighbors children have been abused. To say that those other children need to be protected from abuse that may, or may not, happen in the next 10-15 years is like saying that all Muslim children should be removed from their families because they might become terrorists. How Ridiculous!
Let's cut out the name calling. It's gets us nowhere.
Horrified by FLDS | 3:25 p.m. April 18, 2008
I�ve had such an interest in these women that
I�ve taken the time to research the history of the FLDS,
their lives and books written by those who have left the FLDS church.
It�s just shocking to see what is being done to these
women. When you get down to it they are being instructed to defraud the
government (welfare fraud) and perhaps tax evasion. Now
let�s add bigamy, child molestation, and pedophilia along
with child abuse to the list of obvious crimes. If the state of Texas did not
remove these children they would eventually become victims and think that this
life style is normal. Also the young men are being trained to be abusers or if
they fall out of favor they will be excommunicated. How nice is this, what a
great way to treat your people. I�m glad that the state of
Texas and the US Govt. have step in and brought this out into the open so the
public will know what is happening in our own back yards
Comments continue below
Old Blue | 3:31 p.m. April 18, 2008
I am not a believe in plural marriage, but why is it PC to have to apologize for
every comment made about homo-sexuals, e.g., gay marriage, but it is okay to
raid this group of FLDS and kidnap their children...what about the trama of the
state's actions vs. the alleged mistreatement of minors?
I suspect the so called christian groups who are responsible for this action are just the other side of the line of Atilla. "You believe what I believe or you cannot believe" Who is running Texas, Annie Richards or Huey Long?
Whose going to pay for this debacle and what how many millions of dollars is it going to cost the tax payers of Texas?
At least there are 49 other states to live in where at least some of the people actually believe "Love thy Neighbor!"
I suspect the so called christian groups who are responsible for this action are just the other side of the line of Atilla. "You believe what I believe or you cannot believe" Who is running Texas, Annie Richards or Huey Long?
Whose going to pay for this debacle and what how many millions of dollars is it going to cost the tax payers of Texas?
At least there are 49 other states to live in where at least some of the people actually believe "Love thy Neighbor!"
Getting to the bottom of it | 4:18 p.m. April 18, 2008
Why were all 416 children removed when only one man had been accused by one
accuser?
Simple.
The DFPS came and checked the place out, and decided that every last one of those kids, as opposed to only the children of the accused, were in danger.
And how did they know that?
Because they're FLDS! What more do you want? We all know that a person's religion is grounds for incriminating them, don't we? And we can't overlook the danger the children were in of becoming the next generation of crazies, can we? We had to save them from their religion.
Why did they come in tracked APCs, with a mob in ski masks carrying fully automatic assault rifles?
That too is simple.
Because they are FLDS, silly! And who wouldn't want to blow away some fruity adherents of an unfashionable religion? Nobody would miss them. Nobody would care. It's fun. Too bad none of them gave the mob an excuse.
I'm being sarcastic, for the record.
Simple.
The DFPS came and checked the place out, and decided that every last one of those kids, as opposed to only the children of the accused, were in danger.
And how did they know that?
Because they're FLDS! What more do you want? We all know that a person's religion is grounds for incriminating them, don't we? And we can't overlook the danger the children were in of becoming the next generation of crazies, can we? We had to save them from their religion.
Why did they come in tracked APCs, with a mob in ski masks carrying fully automatic assault rifles?
That too is simple.
Because they are FLDS, silly! And who wouldn't want to blow away some fruity adherents of an unfashionable religion? Nobody would miss them. Nobody would care. It's fun. Too bad none of them gave the mob an excuse.
I'm being sarcastic, for the record.
Pope supporter | 4:29 p.m. April 18, 2008
I like what the Pope had to say today. He made more sense than any of this FLDS
nonsense. At least he's a good man and thats what we all need more of. The
FLDS are bunch of angry vicious men throwing women at their feet. You men will
go to hell for your evil deeds. You only follow after satan, and not God. QUIT
USING GOD FOR YOUR EVIL ABUSE!
Horrified by FLDS | 4:51 p.m. April 18, 2008
These children were not kidnapped by anyone; they were taken into protective custody until the allegations of abuse can be thoroughly investigated. If the State of Texas finds that none of these children are in harms way they will be returned to their parents, but as it stands and it was documented that children as young as 13 years old have been impregnated and given birth at this Ranch. Now how can anyone believe that what they (the flds members) think is right? As we all know the LDS church denounced polygamy over 100 years ago and even then I'm sure men like Brigham Young did not mean for men to have sex with children. That is what this is all about men of age having sexual relations with children (minors under the age of 18) not the religion they practice or their faith in the Father, Son and Wholly Ghost. So let�s get our heads on straight and support the State of Texas who is looking to protect these children from being mistreated.
When is a child a child? | 12:05 a.m. April 19, 2008
I'm not in favor of polygamy, nor child abuse, nor the economic and social
stranglehold the leaders of the FLDS have on their followers, but I do find it
interesting that anyone under the age of 18 is now being considered a
"child". I was married 4 months after my 17th birthday--I was a high
school honor graduate and within 4 months of having a 2 year college degree. I
certainly didn't consider myself a child, and neither did others of us who
married young--nor the young men who went into the Army or Navy at 17, or to
work at full-time jobs. I was 18 when my first child was born, and I certainly
didn't consider myself a "child having children." One of my
ancestor's brothers married at 16, took his 15 year old bride pioneering
into the wilderness and grew up to become a Revolutionary War General and the
first governor of Tennessee. They were considered adults, not children.
Today's teenagers seem well able and even encouraged to be sexual, but not allowed to be responsible. I see some interesting changes in society and I'm not sure it's good!
Today's teenagers seem well able and even encouraged to be sexual, but not allowed to be responsible. I see some interesting changes in society and I'm not sure it's good!
helen lyon | 7:56 a.m. April 19, 2008
Texas=Nazis have performed a breach of trust. Restitution should be given to
the children and mothers for traumatizing them. You do not infiltrate a home or
private property by an allegation, from a phone call. You seek proof that this
is correct, not on heresay. Perhaps the CPS, and Voss and that judge should
read the Constitution. I am not for the FLDS, not for poligamy. If Texass
cared about children, there are
thousands of them being abused and teenage pregnancies are rampant. The males of the FLDS should be held accountable, not just the women and children. They separated the women from their children. Put the women into another room, surrounded them and someone
came in and declared "The children are ours" Is this familiar? This happened in Nazi Germany. TEAS-NAZIS, examine yourselves!!!
thousands of them being abused and teenage pregnancies are rampant. The males of the FLDS should be held accountable, not just the women and children. They separated the women from their children. Put the women into another room, surrounded them and someone
came in and declared "The children are ours" Is this familiar? This happened in Nazi Germany. TEAS-NAZIS, examine yourselves!!!
John | 9:59 a.m. April 19, 2008
Russ, this has nothing to do with children's rights or abuse. It is simply
practice to go after bigger fish like the church of LDS. I went to college with
the types of women (man hating feminists and lesbians) who run most cps offices
in this country (SF State). The children are safer where they are than in
mainstream America. If 400 children were taken from mainstream american
families and given the physicals these children were forced to have, they would
have found a lot of sexual abuse. According to dps Sgt. Danny Crawford, they
are yet to have found any sexual abuse. Don't believe the lies of our sick
news mediaa.
John Lambert | 8:57 p.m. April 20, 2008
To Andrus:
The reason you do not hear polygamy criticized is because it is not legal, and no one is trying to make it legal. The ACLU in Utah has tried to decriminalize it, which is odd because the ACLU has supported the idea of fighting polygamy in Africa. It is also odd because the ACLU used the ruling in Reynolds vs. US to speak of how it is good that judges draw on legal precedents from other countries.
The state does not provide legal recognition to polygamy. This is why Warren Jeffs is in jail. The same-sex marriage group want to give such marriage full legal protection and benefits. You are comparing apples and oranges. No one is being hauled off to jail for same sex marriage. Where is the FZ or Short Creek attack on homosexuals?
The reason you do not hear polygamy criticized is because it is not legal, and no one is trying to make it legal. The ACLU in Utah has tried to decriminalize it, which is odd because the ACLU has supported the idea of fighting polygamy in Africa. It is also odd because the ACLU used the ruling in Reynolds vs. US to speak of how it is good that judges draw on legal precedents from other countries.
The state does not provide legal recognition to polygamy. This is why Warren Jeffs is in jail. The same-sex marriage group want to give such marriage full legal protection and benefits. You are comparing apples and oranges. No one is being hauled off to jail for same sex marriage. Where is the FZ or Short Creek attack on homosexuals?
John Lambert | 10:20 p.m. April 20, 2008
I think part of the problem is that we are confusing pedophilia and statutory
rape. Pedophilia and child molestation involve pre-pubescent children.
Statuatory rape is often a very different type of crime. The legal system essenstially groups them together, treats the perpetrators similarly and so on. Statutory rape is the obtaining of sex from people who are assumed to not be able to be consenting adults.
The problem in this case comes up due to the illogical case where we allow parental consent for marriage in cases where if there was no marriage there would be statutory rape. This is in part based on the assumption that with parental consent and a marriage this will avoid older men routinely exploiting younger women for sexual favors, doing this often and repetedly and so on.
This is where we enter some problems. There has been a failure to fully reconcile statutory rape laws with marriage laws. One could also ask if a man's wife is on child support on the grounds that her husband has abandoned her what the difference between this and statuatory rape is. I think it would be better to pursue welfare fraud charges.
Statuatory rape is often a very different type of crime. The legal system essenstially groups them together, treats the perpetrators similarly and so on. Statutory rape is the obtaining of sex from people who are assumed to not be able to be consenting adults.
The problem in this case comes up due to the illogical case where we allow parental consent for marriage in cases where if there was no marriage there would be statutory rape. This is in part based on the assumption that with parental consent and a marriage this will avoid older men routinely exploiting younger women for sexual favors, doing this often and repetedly and so on.
This is where we enter some problems. There has been a failure to fully reconcile statutory rape laws with marriage laws. One could also ask if a man's wife is on child support on the grounds that her husband has abandoned her what the difference between this and statuatory rape is. I think it would be better to pursue welfare fraud charges.
John Lambert | 10:24 p.m. April 20, 2008
I would have to say that those who applaud this raid and violation of civil
rights and denounce Utah and Arizona for slowness should realize that there are
civil liberties for a reason.
The state should have pursued a workable case. When they could not find the 16 year old with broken ribs they should have backed off and waited for a workable case on welfare fraud or a real person claiming forced marriage.
However, I think this problem is a result of people judging others too much by their own standards. I get the inpression that the child welfare workers have not tried to see the whole situation from anyone else's view.
The state should have pursued a workable case. When they could not find the 16 year old with broken ribs they should have backed off and waited for a workable case on welfare fraud or a real person claiming forced marriage.
However, I think this problem is a result of people judging others too much by their own standards. I get the inpression that the child welfare workers have not tried to see the whole situation from anyone else's view.
Women | 9:24 p.m. April 21, 2008
As a woman the polygamist women in the media appear to be detached from
reality....if this is the case how can they protect their children?
Joyce | 10:52 p.m. April 21, 2008
I bet the judge being a woman is really a burr in the men's saddle.
LOL
LOL
To KSR | 1:22 p.m. April 22, 2008
Don't think religious law doesn't apply in the US. The Lubavicher
sect of Judaism demanded and received this: The U.S. Congress officially
recognized the Noahide Laws in legislation which was passed by both houses.
Congress and the President of the United States, George Bush, indicated in
Public Law 102-14, 102nd Congress, that the United States of America was founded
upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah, and that these Laws have been the bedrock
of society from the dawn of civilization. They also acknowledged that the Seven
Laws of Noah are the foundation upon which civilization stands and that recent
weakening of these principles threaten the fabric of civilized society, and that
justified preoccupation in educating the Citizens of the United States of
America and future generations is needed. For this purpose, this Public Law
designated March 26, 1991 as Education Day, U.S.A.
britney | 1:28 p.m. April 22, 2008
The court took away, for a time, ALL Britney's rights as a parent when she
did not behave as one. The court is allowing some FLDS mothers the privilege to
maintain contact, though with supervision and without cell phones and they
complain? This is the same group of women that allowed underage girls to marry
without reporting it? This is the same group of women that allowed incestuous
marriages. This is the same group of women that also shunned 13 year old boys
when they were seen as competition? This is the same group of women that
tattled when other women wanted to escape? My only question is why are these
FLDS women receiving unprecedented privileges that I would not receive if I were
in the judicial system for committing these same heinous crimes.
re: women | 2:14 p.m. April 22, 2008
They don't protect their children. Just look up "lost boys."
They are abandoned boys.
Narrow is the Way | 5:49 p.m. April 27, 2008
Polygamy was NEVER condemned by God.
Taking innocent children away from their parents when no proof of a crime was ever committed is Un-Constitutional.
Those children did not look abused. But they are subject to abuse now! They were taken away from God fearing parents and given to Catholic Foster homes that have statues of a dead Jewish young women 'Mary' holding a rosary. Now those innocent children are doomed to hell with their Catholic sodomizing homosexual Foster Care Givers. (by the way Mary was only 12 years old when she gave birth to Jesus-The Messiah).
But nothing is done about the real abuses going on for decades, the homosexual priests molesting, raping, and sodomizing young alter boys in the Catholic church.
Why doesn't the Texas Government round them up? The Catholic Cult are the real abusers.
Everyone should stand up for these people because If the government gets away with this they will have no problem taking your children away from YOU, on a whim or a bogus phone call, or because they don't like the way you comb your hair.
Taking innocent children away from their parents when no proof of a crime was ever committed is Un-Constitutional.
Those children did not look abused. But they are subject to abuse now! They were taken away from God fearing parents and given to Catholic Foster homes that have statues of a dead Jewish young women 'Mary' holding a rosary. Now those innocent children are doomed to hell with their Catholic sodomizing homosexual Foster Care Givers. (by the way Mary was only 12 years old when she gave birth to Jesus-The Messiah).
But nothing is done about the real abuses going on for decades, the homosexual priests molesting, raping, and sodomizing young alter boys in the Catholic church.
Why doesn't the Texas Government round them up? The Catholic Cult are the real abusers.
Everyone should stand up for these people because If the government gets away with this they will have no problem taking your children away from YOU, on a whim or a bogus phone call, or because they don't like the way you comb your hair.
gal50 | 2:31 p.m. April 28, 2008
The latest news is that 31 of the 53 girls between the ages of 14 and 17 who
were living on the ranch in Eldorado already have children or are pregnant, most
if not all by older men. Under normal circumstance CPS would remove all of the
children residing in the same homes as these girls, in other words, their
"husband's" children. They would also remove all of the children
from these girl's parents' homes.
If this information is true,it may be possible that there is a home on the ranch which remains unaffected by this, but it is unclear as to whether those children should be returned. On the one hand those parents were not involved in statutory rape. On the other, they sure were exposing their children to a culture that tolerated statutory rape.
If this information is true,it may be possible that there is a home on the ranch which remains unaffected by this, but it is unclear as to whether those children should be returned. On the one hand those parents were not involved in statutory rape. On the other, they sure were exposing their children to a culture that tolerated statutory rape.
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