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Attorneys representing FLDS looking for custody changes, visitation
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Jake | 9:55 a.m. April 18, 2008
Ronnie, you have spun my intent. The hasty action to which I refer is not the
rush to a hearing within the 14 day legal requirement,. It is the hasty rush to
literally invade and remove all children, en masse, rather than take their
initial findings before an open hearing and then remove the likely offending
principles. It is the overly broad use of juvenile court powers to wreak havoc
on this community when a little reasoned thought would have provided effective
and less intrusive (abusive) means to the same end. It refers to the hasty
ability or propensity to run roughshod over 4th amendment safreguards under the
panacaea that means always justify the ends.
Additionally, the suggestion that Ms. Voss' language was emotionally charged because she was dealing with children who might have been at risk, evades the actual reasons she gave for her fear. She said it was a scary environment because there were men all around and people watching. What did she expect, that the people whose lives she was invading would run and hide. They peacefully let the "investigators" in and then watched them turn their world upside down. Trojan horse??
Additionally, the suggestion that Ms. Voss' language was emotionally charged because she was dealing with children who might have been at risk, evades the actual reasons she gave for her fear. She said it was a scary environment because there were men all around and people watching. What did she expect, that the people whose lives she was invading would run and hide. They peacefully let the "investigators" in and then watched them turn their world upside down. Trojan horse??
Ned | 9:49 a.m. April 18, 2008
The sooner they they put some of these FLDS cultist and deviates in jail the
better it will be for women. Everyone hates people who use God to do evil. It
doesn't work for normal thinking people.
Comments continue below
Anonymous | 9:58 a.m. April 18, 2008
At thepetitionsite, free-the-innocent-flds petition, you can read comments of
hundreds of outraged citizens from all over the country. At Day of Praise blog,
see video on horrors of Texas Foster Care system.
more questions | 10:09 a.m. April 18, 2008
Can someone explain why they didn't round up all the men and remove them
from the ranch - instead of taking all the children away and forcing them into
unfamiliar situations? It seems like if they wanted to really hear from the
children - they would get more reliable information from them while in familiar
surroundings.
avengeance | 10:10 a.m. April 18, 2008
"Polygamy is a CRIME, people. It is child abuse and pedophilia."
Polygamy is the belief that you are married to more than one person at a given time. Beliefs are not illegal. Child abuse has nothing to do with marital status. Pedophelia involves prepubescent children. How can only eleven words contain so much stupid?
Polygamy is the belief that you are married to more than one person at a given time. Beliefs are not illegal. Child abuse has nothing to do with marital status. Pedophelia involves prepubescent children. How can only eleven words contain so much stupid?
James | 10:14 a.m. April 18, 2008
Anyone who condones the practice of plural marriage and the slavery of women is
completely barbaric in their thinking. Somehow these kind of people have a
perverse way of thinking. There has never and never will be a God commanding men
and women to live in Adultery.
I am quite satisfied with my one wife whom I love dearly. I do not desire another. It disgusts me as well to think of that kind of betrayal. It is in no way of God.
I hope God smites down the FLDS heathens who do this criminal behavior towards women.
I am quite satisfied with my one wife whom I love dearly. I do not desire another. It disgusts me as well to think of that kind of betrayal. It is in no way of God.
I hope God smites down the FLDS heathens who do this criminal behavior towards women.
BobP | 10:15 a.m. April 18, 2008
The Law of unitended consequences strikes again. The Texas CPS went in there to
with preconcieved theories of what was happening.
When I first got married my wife and I had lots of theories on raising kids. After having lots of kids we have no theories left.
I am LDS, active not polygamous, but this whole thing is a horrendous breach of personal and religious freedom.
When I first got married my wife and I had lots of theories on raising kids. After having lots of kids we have no theories left.
I am LDS, active not polygamous, but this whole thing is a horrendous breach of personal and religious freedom.
Jared | 10:43 a.m. April 18, 2008
I can see that the daily SICKOS are on this post who believe in polygamy and are
preaching their daily ignorant half a man nonsense!
Re: more questions | 10:09 a.m. | 11:02 a.m. April 18, 2008
Unfortunately our laws are far from perfect. I have heard many people ask why
the men weren�t rounded up and taken away, leaving the
women and children home in a familiar environment, which of course would have
been an ideal situation in Texas.
The short answer is that based on the complaint, adult FLDS males were considered suspects from the onset. Suspects in our country have rights (yes, I know the children have rights, too�) and without an arrest warrant, detention can only be minimal while investigating. When officers consider someone to be a suspect and not a witness, they must be afforded their Miranda rights and there must be enough evidence to hold them in custody...usually not the case in the beginning of an investigation when evidence has not yet been uncovered. (Note I am speaking of our criminal laws, and not GWB�s anti-terrorism act, which disregards these boundaries for detention and arrest).
Juvenile Court laws are not as rigid, presumably because minors do not have the capacity to protect themselves. When attempting to separate suspects from juvenile victims during investigation, the victims can be removed immediately in the interest of safety without violating rights of suspects.
The short answer is that based on the complaint, adult FLDS males were considered suspects from the onset. Suspects in our country have rights (yes, I know the children have rights, too�) and without an arrest warrant, detention can only be minimal while investigating. When officers consider someone to be a suspect and not a witness, they must be afforded their Miranda rights and there must be enough evidence to hold them in custody...usually not the case in the beginning of an investigation when evidence has not yet been uncovered. (Note I am speaking of our criminal laws, and not GWB�s anti-terrorism act, which disregards these boundaries for detention and arrest).
Juvenile Court laws are not as rigid, presumably because minors do not have the capacity to protect themselves. When attempting to separate suspects from juvenile victims during investigation, the victims can be removed immediately in the interest of safety without violating rights of suspects.
To Bot and Jakc | 11:06 a.m. April 18, 2008
Amen!
To Russ at 0559 | 11:07 a.m. April 18, 2008
You're right. Utah would've handled it with respect for the due
process rights granted by the Constitution. Here's how:
1. Take the people whom you suspect and have evidence have been abused--that would be the 16 named in the "Bishop's record," according to news accounts.
2. Secure the compound while you investigate. Allow people to live their lives, as much as possible. If people want to leave, allow them to do so if there is no evidence to hold them. That's the law.
Texas is violating constitutional rights like Sherman violated Atlanta, and it's going to come back to hurt them. They're in a no-win situation now, and there going to look bad no matter what they do.
1. Take the people whom you suspect and have evidence have been abused--that would be the 16 named in the "Bishop's record," according to news accounts.
2. Secure the compound while you investigate. Allow people to live their lives, as much as possible. If people want to leave, allow them to do so if there is no evidence to hold them. That's the law.
Texas is violating constitutional rights like Sherman violated Atlanta, and it's going to come back to hurt them. They're in a no-win situation now, and there going to look bad no matter what they do.
Dear Jack | 11:15 a.m. April 18, 2008
The article says "the majority". What about the ones who are not part
of "the majority"? I don't think that "majority rules"
is relevant here.
Anonymous | 11:44 a.m. April 18, 2008
I am getting really disgusted with the way that some of you are dissing CPS. I
am a single mom, with 2 kids. I live in San Angelo, Texas and. I have never had
any problems with CPS, APS, or any other agency for that matter. I work for a
living, support my kids etc. Maybe that is the difference. I do not depend on
any government agency for any support. Some of you who have done nothing but
complain, judge, whine and so on are beginning to make me think that maybe your
welfare check has been cut off or maybe they are expecting you to go to work and
not stay on the computer complaining all day. Go figure!
David | 11:44 a.m. April 18, 2008
If I am one of those of "the People" or "the governed",
how do I not have the right or power to do that. In the founding documents of
this country, this government it says: "deriving JUST powers from the
consent of the governed" (Declaration of Independence), "WE THE
PEOPLE, ... do ordain and establish this Constitution..." Now if I as one
of "THE PEOPLE" or "the governed" do not have the right or
power to take children from their parents, where does the government get their
power to do so? They cannot have any power that "WE THE PEOPLE" do not
have. The creature cannot exceed the Creator.A body of water cannot naturally
rise above its source. If WE THE PEOPLE do not have the power to take children
from parents, from where does the government derive that power?
(cont)
(cont)
David | 11:51 a.m. April 18, 2008
The Founding Fathers never even conceived the possibility that children might be
taken from their parents by a tyrannical government. Read the Declaration of
Independence and you will discover that of all the crimes charged, not even King
George the Third could be so cruel as to do such a thing. It was seen as such a
self-evident truth that parents have the ultimate authority from God over their
children, that no mention should be neccesary in the Bill of Rights enumerating
such God-given rights.
(cont)
(cont)
Re: Grow Brains | 11:53 a.m. April 18, 2008
Most of these posts regard the violations of the
constitutional rights, due process rights, and civil
rights protections, even these people to have their
rights protected. I am tired of people pretending
to be more intellectual just because they hate FLDS or LDS. I am Catholic and I think these Christians
have a right to exist peacefully without goverment interference.
constitutional rights, due process rights, and civil
rights protections, even these people to have their
rights protected. I am tired of people pretending
to be more intellectual just because they hate FLDS or LDS. I am Catholic and I think these Christians
have a right to exist peacefully without goverment interference.
Clearly | 12:21 p.m. April 18, 2008
Clearly, the front page of the Deseret News today reveals the glaring hypocracy
of how sexual abuse is handled in America. On the one hand children are ripped
from family, possibly never to return,whole communities are invaded and arrested
because the children might grow up and become preditors and victims.
In the next article all the Pope has to do is apologize and pray with the victims of their sexual scandals and all should be forgiven and forgotten. Where is the justice in that. Where are these clergy now? No one can find them. No one has searched their churches for evidence, no one has put them in jail. No one has seized their cell phones. The altar boys grow up and do the same thing. Is this not an environment for producing preditors??? But hey, since they are not polygamists, we will overlook that and let the Catholic church deal with it instead of the government.
If you think none of this has to do with religious prejudice and Baptist bigotry it's time to get your head out of the sand.
Clearly sexual abuse is a huge blight and needs to be dealt with in fairness and equality.
In the next article all the Pope has to do is apologize and pray with the victims of their sexual scandals and all should be forgiven and forgotten. Where is the justice in that. Where are these clergy now? No one can find them. No one has searched their churches for evidence, no one has put them in jail. No one has seized their cell phones. The altar boys grow up and do the same thing. Is this not an environment for producing preditors??? But hey, since they are not polygamists, we will overlook that and let the Catholic church deal with it instead of the government.
If you think none of this has to do with religious prejudice and Baptist bigotry it's time to get your head out of the sand.
Clearly sexual abuse is a huge blight and needs to be dealt with in fairness and equality.
Holly | 12:45 p.m. April 18, 2008
The life of the polygamists in this sect reminds me of Oprah's show on the
puppy mills, only in this case we are dealing with humans. We've got
50-year-old men married to as many as 20 women each, producing hundreds of
babies. It's a human factory. CNN showed a tour of the Texas ranch which
was very disturbing. With 400+ children there seemed to be no evidence of
their existence other than the beds they slept in. Where were their toys,
bicycles, balls, etc.? That's right, they don't have toys!
Don't most families hang pictures of their children on the walls and their
drawings on the refrigerator? All that I saw on those walls were photos of
Warren Jeffs. It's sick! I do think the children ought to be with their
mothers but those mothers and children need some major psychiatric intervention.
I suspect the women and children have been brainwashed. Do you hear the way
the women talk? They are so uneducated they can hardly utter a complete
sentence. This shouldn't happen in America. Those children have a right
as U.S. citizens to receive a proper education. Thank you Texas for doing
something!
Your own backyard | 12:48 p.m. April 18, 2008
Re: Clearly 12:21 -
It sounds like this individual has issues with the Catholic Church.
What's the saying about "cleaning up your OWN backyard..."?
It sounds like this individual has issues with the Catholic Church.
What's the saying about "cleaning up your OWN backyard..."?
let them chose! | 12:49 p.m. April 18, 2008
I think what people are missing here in defending teenage pregnancy is CHOICE!
Most teenage girls that are pregnant do so by choice. They, more often than
not, have sex with someone of their choosing. FLDS girls on the other hand have
no choice. They are essentially given to these old men (usually relatives) like
property. Everyone should have the choice to whom they love, marry and have a
family with. Let them make that choice for themselves when they are an
appropriate age. If at 18 that is what they want-great! By the way, to bring up
Anna Nicole Smith is rediculous, she was an ADULT, not 13, and she made the
choice. How are people not seeing the difference!
NOt the only ones | 12:55 p.m. April 18, 2008
I lived in Montana for several years, and there were a couple of Huiterite
colonies nearby that would come in and shop at the store I worked in.
Their relgion, the girls are dropped out of school at age 8, and the boys at age 10. The state of Montana tried to force the 18 yearold stay in school type laws, and LOST. Their religion does not believe in our schools, and the courts upheld it. I really do not see much difference between the Huits. and the Flds wanting to be left alone. Seems that Montana is more willing to allow personal and relgious freedom than Texas.
Their relgion, the girls are dropped out of school at age 8, and the boys at age 10. The state of Montana tried to force the 18 yearold stay in school type laws, and LOST. Their religion does not believe in our schools, and the courts upheld it. I really do not see much difference between the Huits. and the Flds wanting to be left alone. Seems that Montana is more willing to allow personal and relgious freedom than Texas.
You sound... | 1:00 p.m. April 18, 2008
Like an expert "let them choose". Please state the source of your
expertise on the faith and practices of the FLDS other that what has been given
to you by the ex members and the media. Fell free to state your opinion, but
don't state as fact what you, in fact, do not know. These people are
different, no doubt, but from someone else's eyes, so are you. since when
did you become the arbeiter of what must be deemed normal and therefore
accepted?
Civil lawsuits for Texas | 1:09 p.m. April 18, 2008
False impressment is criminal in most states, if any of the "children are
over 18."
The Texan | 1:08 p.m. April 18, 2008
Well, that is what has happened in the Texas polygamist sect case. We have
watched more than 400 children being taken from home by bus.
Most of the children were accompanied by their mothers. But now the sect's mothers and children older than 5 have been separated.
And the question heard around the country is, "Can this happen in America?"
The short answer is yes, and thank goodness.
In fact, in this case, both law enforcement officers and officials from the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had every right to remove these children.
Sorry, case not closed yet.
Most of the children were accompanied by their mothers. But now the sect's mothers and children older than 5 have been separated.
And the question heard around the country is, "Can this happen in America?"
The short answer is yes, and thank goodness.
In fact, in this case, both law enforcement officers and officials from the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services had every right to remove these children.
Sorry, case not closed yet.
Very Concerned | 1:17 p.m. April 18, 2008
There are three very important issues in play here.
1- The abuse of innocent children, which must be addressed anywhere it's happening. I've had siblings in my family abused by our stepfather and I feel passionately that those children who are definitely being abused must be protected!
2- The inappropriate, forced removal from their homes, of all other children in that community, regardless of any proof of abuse taking place. This should never happen! None of us would want our children taken from us solely because one or more of our neighbors abused their children, even though there is no evidence that we have done, or would do, likewise to our own kids. If it's not OK for it to happen to us, then we shouldn't be OK with it happening to anyone else.
3- Religious bigotry, as I feel is evidenced by the hasty actions of Texas agencies and the comments of some posters on this site. Please get the facts right. People (including Mormons) who are opposed to the unnecessary removal of unharmed children from their homes are not saying that we condone any form of child abuse or that we agree with the practice of polygamy.
1- The abuse of innocent children, which must be addressed anywhere it's happening. I've had siblings in my family abused by our stepfather and I feel passionately that those children who are definitely being abused must be protected!
2- The inappropriate, forced removal from their homes, of all other children in that community, regardless of any proof of abuse taking place. This should never happen! None of us would want our children taken from us solely because one or more of our neighbors abused their children, even though there is no evidence that we have done, or would do, likewise to our own kids. If it's not OK for it to happen to us, then we shouldn't be OK with it happening to anyone else.
3- Religious bigotry, as I feel is evidenced by the hasty actions of Texas agencies and the comments of some posters on this site. Please get the facts right. People (including Mormons) who are opposed to the unnecessary removal of unharmed children from their homes are not saying that we condone any form of child abuse or that we agree with the practice of polygamy.
To: Floyd | 1:24 p.m. April 18, 2008
you said: "This Ms Voss obviously has a problem with men. She seems to be
intimidated and terrified by the presence of men. Did she expect to find only
women present? How does she handle exposure to men in the rest of her
life??"
Why such a personal inuendo against Ms Voss???? You werent there, and I'm sure if your wife was doing that job under those conditions that she would have nerves of steel and totally fearless.. I'm sure she was briefed beforehand on how the raid and investigation could go sour. My hat goes off to her in doing her job even with fear in a tense situation. She was doing her job and what she felt was the right thing to do.
Downrating our law officials who put their lives on the line for the sake of justice is just wrong. and to me it is anti-authority i hear coming from your writing!
Why such a personal inuendo against Ms Voss???? You werent there, and I'm sure if your wife was doing that job under those conditions that she would have nerves of steel and totally fearless.. I'm sure she was briefed beforehand on how the raid and investigation could go sour. My hat goes off to her in doing her job even with fear in a tense situation. She was doing her job and what she felt was the right thing to do.
Downrating our law officials who put their lives on the line for the sake of justice is just wrong. and to me it is anti-authority i hear coming from your writing!
Seems to me (cont.) | 1:19 p.m. April 18, 2008
Ifn we're talking child molestation her, it seems to me that it depends on
the definition. In one state, you're guilty of it at 14, in another at 16.
So' if I cross the state line, I've not guilty of child abuse.
Arbitrary, isn't it. Which correct thinking citizens are the truly correct
ones? I'm not talking about children before puberty, and neither are the
people of Texas, but has any evidence been found of a true child molestation
been found, or are we talking statutory legalities and social differences?
I'm not a polygamist. That lifestyle is not for me, but then, I'm not a Baptist, vegetarian, Wicken or satan worshipper either. S, which one of you gets to rain judgement over my beliefs and pull in the state to enforce your point of view???
I'm not a polygamist. That lifestyle is not for me, but then, I'm not a Baptist, vegetarian, Wicken or satan worshipper either. S, which one of you gets to rain judgement over my beliefs and pull in the state to enforce your point of view???
Hey Holly | 1:32 p.m. April 18, 2008
Are you a smoker? A drinker? Someone who doesn't use the proper child
restraint for your child? A speeder? A spanker of your children...How hard is
too hard and how just enough? Do you only feed your children health food? Are
your sexual habits when no one sees, acceptible to others? Is your language when
you're angry appropriate for your childrens ears? How many toys is enough
to pass your standard?
Has your child ever gotten out of your sight in the park? Any one of these could get you a visit from DCFS and put you into hell. Your judgement of someone else's lifestyle from your tower of self righteousness is offensive to many, even if acceptible to others.
Has your child ever gotten out of your sight in the park? Any one of these could get you a visit from DCFS and put you into hell. Your judgement of someone else's lifestyle from your tower of self righteousness is offensive to many, even if acceptible to others.
A Texan | 1:28 p.m. April 18, 2008
God Bless Texas including the CPS for doing the right thing!!!!!!!!!!
Re: David | 1:42 p.m. April 18, 2008
It says derived from the CONSENT of the governed, not derived from the powers
the governed have and want to give up to government. They can do the things
they do because we allow them the power to, not because we cede that power to
them.
Your argument suffers from some severe fallacies in its presumptions.
Your argument suffers from some severe fallacies in its presumptions.
WOW | 1:36 p.m. April 18, 2008
One person in Texas has not had his or hers rights trampled on. I now know 416+
Joe | 1:48 p.m. April 18, 2008
Ms Voss was expressing her personal feelings about being on the ranch, so its
natural that others should question and analyze those expressed feelings,
especially since she made them in public.
LB | 1:47 p.m. April 18, 2008
It is astonishing that so many have absolutely no understanding of the
Constitution, the religious freedom it protects, or even the way it dictates the
government be run. You do not have a religious or any other right to break the
laws duly enacted by the government. American citizens, through their
representatives, have outlawed polygamy and sex with children under a certain
age. You certainly have no right to religious practices that violate the basic
protections that all citizens enjoy, even children, if you can believe it!! It
is sickening that some people want to let them live in peace even though their
peaceful society is breaking laws for which you and I would be immediately
prosecuted if we were found practicing such things. Do you feel free to give
your 13 yr. old daughter to the highest bidder? Is that part of the religious
freedom you believe is protected in the USA? Many people are approaching this as
parents who would never want to lose their children. Well, you have nothing to
fear if you don't break any laws in the way you treat them.
Quit complaining!! | 1:49 p.m. April 18, 2008
I find it interesting that so many people have an opinion on how to do every one
else's job!! I think it is interesting that if this girl truly made this
call and was screaming out for help and the Texas authorities said "Oh
let's just ignore this because they are sweet religious people" every
one of you blasting the Texas authorities would be up in arms over that!! This
government, law enforcement, judges, and any public office is darned if it does
and darned if it doesn't. Welcome to America!! The land of the unhappy no
matter what!! It wasn't okay for the Catholic priests who were outed in
the huge sex abuse scandal to hide behind their religion as a defense. Let the
authorities do their jobs. If you could do it so much better, why haven't
any of you been voted into office?
The devils own | 1:44 p.m. April 18, 2008
You people in Utah are some very ill human beings. None of us out her who are
normal care about how many women be can take to bed. You people are totally
warped from head to toe.
Re: David (again) | 1:48 p.m. April 18, 2008
I guess you could look at it from the other way around, as well.
If I am bigger and stronger than you, I have the power to take your children and put them in my custody. Why then is it illegal? Because we gave the power to do that lawfully to the government.
Your argument still suffers from some severe fallacies in its presumptions.
If I am bigger and stronger than you, I have the power to take your children and put them in my custody. Why then is it illegal? Because we gave the power to do that lawfully to the government.
Your argument still suffers from some severe fallacies in its presumptions.
Sokol | 1:58 p.m. April 18, 2008
Over 400 children losing their mothers and fathers based on fabrications,
subjective opinions and unsubstantiated allegations.
Another words, this is just another day in the American Family Court system.
Another words, this is just another day in the American Family Court system.
Rights of the Children | 1:58 p.m. April 18, 2008
It's disturbing that the people who are complaining about civil rights
abuses and about "families" being torn apart have so little regard for
the children.
Apparently, the "unalienable Rights... of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" only apply to the men in charge of the FLDS sect.
If you're a young 13 y/o girl, you'll marry who they say, when they say, and start having babies as soon as they say. You'll have no right to a proper education. You'll have no access to the outside world. In short, you'll have no right to make ANY decision concerning your own life.
And, if by some miraculous means, someone from the outside world does decide to come to your defense, thousands of people who supposedly care about your rights, will demand that the government return you immediately to that living hell from which you momentarily escaped.
Apparently, the "unalienable Rights... of "Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness" only apply to the men in charge of the FLDS sect.
If you're a young 13 y/o girl, you'll marry who they say, when they say, and start having babies as soon as they say. You'll have no right to a proper education. You'll have no access to the outside world. In short, you'll have no right to make ANY decision concerning your own life.
And, if by some miraculous means, someone from the outside world does decide to come to your defense, thousands of people who supposedly care about your rights, will demand that the government return you immediately to that living hell from which you momentarily escaped.
Re: 1:32 comment | 2:03 p.m. April 18, 2008
You can criticize my opinions all you want but I stand by what I said. We do
have parenting, child protection, and education standards here in America.
Parents who don't want to rear their children by those standards should
either move to a different country or fear CPS who will be there to protect the
children whose parents are not protecting them according to our American
standards. I am all for religious freedom but as it appears this particular
sect has crossed the line and is putting their children at risk. That's
when intervention is necessary.
S. Greene | 2:17 p.m. April 18, 2008
Holly's comment: "The life of the polygamists in this sect reminds me
of Oprah's show on the puppy mills, only in this case we are dealing with
humans... It's a human factory."
I agree with your observation.
A clarification for "Not the only ones." The Hutterites (along with the Amish and Mennonites) live with the ideals of pacifism and a community of commonly held goods. They do not practice polygamy, nor do they promote producing children as a goal in and of itself. As others have pointed out there is much in our collective society
that is worthy of avoiding, which the Hutterites do quietly without condemning others.
Yes, individuals have a right to choose how they live within a collective respect for everyone else's right to do the same. The laws of a country are designed to define this boundary. We, the people, seem to agree that the rape of underage girls or their marriage to legitimize the act is a crime. It is the evidence that FLSD men committed statutory rape and that this behavior is condoned and central to their beliefs and culture which mobilized social servies.
I appreciate Texas CPS's willingness to act.
I agree with your observation.
A clarification for "Not the only ones." The Hutterites (along with the Amish and Mennonites) live with the ideals of pacifism and a community of commonly held goods. They do not practice polygamy, nor do they promote producing children as a goal in and of itself. As others have pointed out there is much in our collective society
that is worthy of avoiding, which the Hutterites do quietly without condemning others.
Yes, individuals have a right to choose how they live within a collective respect for everyone else's right to do the same. The laws of a country are designed to define this boundary. We, the people, seem to agree that the rape of underage girls or their marriage to legitimize the act is a crime. It is the evidence that FLSD men committed statutory rape and that this behavior is condoned and central to their beliefs and culture which mobilized social servies.
I appreciate Texas CPS's willingness to act.
A Texan | 2:21 p.m. April 18, 2008
If people don't like the laws of our USA and are so pro pedifilia and
flds... why dont all of you just go start your own country where there
isn't any laws except the ones that suit your own immorality. Hey, I hear
the land Jim Jones and the koolaid bunch is up for sale down in Guyana!!!!!
God Bless Texas
God Bless Texas
SueM | 2:28 p.m. April 18, 2008
If they return the kids to their parents
the state Needs to make it manditory that they
register all Births with state
Get a state birth Certificate and SSN
the state Needs to make it manditory that they
register all Births with state
Get a state birth Certificate and SSN
Matt | 2:41 p.m. April 18, 2008
"A culture of younger girls having sex with older men?" Sounds like
Hollywood...
Tom | 2:41 p.m. April 18, 2008
I think that most anyone would support an effort by authorities to help an
abused person who makes a phone call, regardless of that person's religion.
But the massive deportation and reprogramming effort by Texas authorities seems
to me like swatting a fly with a hand grenade. Well then, suppose there were a
lot of flies to be swatted? Maybe then a can of bug spray. But a hand grenade is
way over the top, and sets a precedent which threatens the civil rights of far
more people than just the FLDS.
I'm not making light of child abuse. I'd protect my 10 year old child with my life. I watched the Catholic church in my area sell off expensive real estate in order to generate funds to pay off abused victims. And rightfully so. But the authorities stepped in with a measured response to the problem, not like the Texans with their machine guns, tanks, and statements that they felt "scared" by the presence of peaceful parents who were present to observe their kids being hauled off in Baptist buses to who knows where.
I'm sure that there are other minority religions studying this situation very carefully! Who's next?
I'm not making light of child abuse. I'd protect my 10 year old child with my life. I watched the Catholic church in my area sell off expensive real estate in order to generate funds to pay off abused victims. And rightfully so. But the authorities stepped in with a measured response to the problem, not like the Texans with their machine guns, tanks, and statements that they felt "scared" by the presence of peaceful parents who were present to observe their kids being hauled off in Baptist buses to who knows where.
I'm sure that there are other minority religions studying this situation very carefully! Who's next?
G | 2:54 p.m. April 18, 2008
"A Texan":
The problem is not the "laws of our USA", the problem is that the CPS of Texas has no regard for the Constitution.
By the way, the Mormons had their own de facto country once, the US took it away.
The problem is not the "laws of our USA", the problem is that the CPS of Texas has no regard for the Constitution.
By the way, the Mormons had their own de facto country once, the US took it away.
Frustrated | 2:55 p.m. April 18, 2008
Since the Catholic priest scandal was brought up, I don't recall that EVERY
priest in the church was investigated. It was handled on a case by case basis.
Yes, the Catholic church in general suffered a black mark because of the
scandal, but those of us with half a brain could see that it was NOT something
that every priest participated in. This situation is not any different.
Whether you agree or disagree with the practice of polygamy, what this issue
boils down to is the investigation of "isolated" incidents where a
young teenage girl is forced to marry an adult male. Not everyone who practices
polygamy would subject their teenage daughter to this type of abuse. So,
instead of raiding the entire compound based on an anonymous phone call, perhaps
a little bit of investigating could have taken place, so that only the few
actual perpetrators would be in custody.
Isn't it interesting that only the children, who haven't committed any crime, are the ones in custody?
Isn't it interesting that only the children, who haven't committed any crime, are the ones in custody?
Come one Come all! | 3:02 p.m. April 18, 2008
And the devil spoke! Come to me my fellow polygamist men. I will teach you all
the ways of the devil and how to be womanizers! And the worms did follow.
Anonymous | 3:09 p.m. April 18, 2008
More indicators of our society in decline.
Rights of the Children | 3:05 p.m. April 18, 2008
You said it well! My earlier comment was excluded because it was apparently
either "offensive or abusive." I did not think so, but you said it
better anyway. We are not dealing with "families" here; we are dealing
with broods, but there are still children that must be protected. Don't
blame Texas, the government, society, CPS, or any other entity for the
situation. The blame lies at the feet of the FLDS leaders and elders (all men)
who have promulgated this travesty of freedom.
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When they realized this wasn't the case, they left.