Reader comments
Child welfare worker describes FLDS ranch as 'scary environment'
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Trial by Jury!!!! | 9:55 a.m. April 17, 2008
Isn't this the same judge that ordered the raid? How is that being fair and
unbiased? This should be tried by jury. This is a constitutional right!
It is nice to see the defenders doing their job and blasting this trial for the sham it is. I just don't see how anything they say or do will sway this judge. She has already made up her mind and will inevitably rule to take these children away. Hopefully the FLDS will appeal this decision and take it to the Supreme Court of the United States if necessary so they will get a fair trial by jury and not be subject to the prejudice of any judge.
It is nice to see the defenders doing their job and blasting this trial for the sham it is. I just don't see how anything they say or do will sway this judge. She has already made up her mind and will inevitably rule to take these children away. Hopefully the FLDS will appeal this decision and take it to the Supreme Court of the United States if necessary so they will get a fair trial by jury and not be subject to the prejudice of any judge.
What A Farce! | 9:52 a.m. April 17, 2008
I do not support the FLDS Church in any way but it is a travesty to have these
children treated this way. They should be returned to their mothers and the FBI
should investigate to find the imposter who made the orignal complaint. I
suspect that call came from someone of a different faith.
Comments continue below
MoJules | 9:55 a.m. April 17, 2008
One problem of getting this kids back to their mothers, they don't know
which one of all these women are their mothers.
Big Time | 9:57 a.m. April 17, 2008
This judge has stepped in it Big Time. She authorized everything that has been
done and now she gets to sort it all out and deal with the mess she almost
single handedly has created. Enjoy!
John | 10:08 a.m. April 17, 2008
This is Communism at it's finest. For all the ones fighting over seas for
our so called freedom, thank you, but Texas takes the lead in moving this county
closer to Communism. What is the FLDS guilty of? Adultry period. If the
Texans want to press charges for that then they better have many of their own
judges and government officials line up for that as well, I'm sure they are
also guilty of adultry. Way to go Texas.
Bobby | 10:05 a.m. April 17, 2008
"she wanted genetic samples collected from each child and each parent in
her case, a psychiatric exam and counseling for the children, and that the
children be placed outside the five-county area that is within the jurisdiction
of this court."
So you make a call claiming the neighbors kids, who you think run wild, are abused and this is what is standard due process in Texas. Is this the reason people are having less kids?
So you make a call claiming the neighbors kids, who you think run wild, are abused and this is what is standard due process in Texas. Is this the reason people are having less kids?
BobP | 10:22 a.m. April 17, 2008
The overzealous actions of the police and Child Welfare is now coming back to
haunt them. This thing will be still going when the kids qualify for Social
Security.
Randy | 10:42 a.m. April 17, 2008
The judge has obligations under the law, so she better do what the law states.
Perfect or not. She issued the warrants, so quit whinning and get this 5 year
trial underway. The state political reps already said they would finance it.
Legal nightmare | 10:42 a.m. April 17, 2008
CNN this morning said that when they requested DNA testing etc., Texas law
automatically requires that each child now be represented individually by an
attorney. Get ready for 416 lawyers to fill up the courtroom...
Sandy & Family | 10:51 a.m. April 17, 2008
My comment on this story is simple. These parents have had thier rights
violated in the worst way and so have these children. I still have not heard
any proof of the allegations of abuse. I am not in this lifestyle but I am a
mother and my heart goes out to these parents. They are in my prayers. I
don't agree with abuse but I have not seen or heard any proof. I live very
close to this trial and really wish I could be there to support those parents
but I can still pray if I can't be there.
John | 10:48 a.m. April 17, 2008
Communisim at it's finest. Thanks Texas for taking the lead toward
totalatariam.
This is bad | 10:57 a.m. April 17, 2008
I think that they did what is right but needed to tell the women before they
took them what was going to happen. They should also find the so called "
Sarha". She may just be a fake.
Good Girl | 11:02 a.m. April 17, 2008
Go Mary Batchelor! I am glad that you are there giving your support! The
lawyers objecting to the hearing are awesome, my prayers are with the families
who have been separated.
Mother | 11:04 a.m. April 17, 2008
Hopefully these children will be reunited with their families soon. Our prayers
are with them.
No Men | 11:06 a.m. April 17, 2008
Notice how no FDLS men were reported to be at the court house. What, they
don't care about their children, or do they know if they send only the
women it looks better.
Lilathe | 11:08 a.m. April 17, 2008
"Richard, one of the polygamist fathers who has a 3-month-old child in
state custody in the San Angelo Coliseum, tried to enter the courthouse today
but finally gave up because the lines were so long"
Just how sad is that in the USA? You are on trial, your child's future and possible life (if the 3 year old is put into an abusive foster home and killed) and you can't even get into the courtroom. How on eartch can this be due process? I have seen them investigate cases in communist china with more concern for the actual people involved than this.
Just how sad is that in the USA? You are on trial, your child's future and possible life (if the 3 year old is put into an abusive foster home and killed) and you can't even get into the courtroom. How on eartch can this be due process? I have seen them investigate cases in communist china with more concern for the actual people involved than this.
Jan Shostak | 11:15 a.m. April 17, 2008
Good procedural reporting so far. Please stay with what the Judge and the
lawyers say, so we can see if the parents and children are actually receiving
due process in a true evidentiary hearing where the attorneys for parents and
children can cross-examine the State's witnesses. That cross-examination
is the adversarial hearing which Texas Family Code and Federal court cases
actually require.
Anon | 11:15 a.m. April 17, 2008
Grab your popcorn. We're going to see some brilliant lawyering from these
pro bono attorneys in from the big cities of Texas.
Don | 11:22 a.m. April 17, 2008
Judge Barbara Walther, and CPS Commissar Ellen Griffith, seem to be in a great
hurry to steal these
children. Poor Barbara is loosing patience with the rule of law, and seems to care less about truth.
Commissar Ellen wants to take the children out of the county and disperse them into surrounding county
jurisdictions, so the parents will have to fight in
multiple courts for their children.
They clearly have no case and are trying to drag out
the scam, hoping for the parents to being worn down.
This is JUST like the Mark Nifong hack job that was
done to the Duke students. The U.S. Attorney General
should step in Now,and stop this Witch Hunt.
The Texas officials responsible, should be arrested
and tried for corruption, and under the RICO laws,for conspiring to kidnap 400+ children, then sell them through the Child Prostitution Service.
I wonder how much money will be made, in the selling
of these children through the Adoption Service. It is not cheap adopting children.
children. Poor Barbara is loosing patience with the rule of law, and seems to care less about truth.
Commissar Ellen wants to take the children out of the county and disperse them into surrounding county
jurisdictions, so the parents will have to fight in
multiple courts for their children.
They clearly have no case and are trying to drag out
the scam, hoping for the parents to being worn down.
This is JUST like the Mark Nifong hack job that was
done to the Duke students. The U.S. Attorney General
should step in Now,and stop this Witch Hunt.
The Texas officials responsible, should be arrested
and tried for corruption, and under the RICO laws,for conspiring to kidnap 400+ children, then sell them through the Child Prostitution Service.
I wonder how much money will be made, in the selling
of these children through the Adoption Service. It is not cheap adopting children.
snickerdoodle | 11:32 a.m. April 17, 2008
*hold your fire*
There will be a lot of gushing about how the mothers can't see the children, how Texas is evil, how . . . bla bla bla.
snickerdoodle asks that before you say "shame on Texas!" you listen to my points:
Fact: there was abuse
Fact: there was reason to remove the children
Fact: the removals were NOT based on the phone call
Fact: IF Barbara Walther sees enough evidence for the FLDS and against Texas, she will unite the women & children. If she continues to separate the women & children, despite opposing evidence, I know there will be an uprising of some sort. Don't worry, people. Whoever has done wrong will be dealt with.
This is America.
There will be Justice.
There will be a lot of gushing about how the mothers can't see the children, how Texas is evil, how . . . bla bla bla.
snickerdoodle asks that before you say "shame on Texas!" you listen to my points:
Fact: there was abuse
Fact: there was reason to remove the children
Fact: the removals were NOT based on the phone call
Fact: IF Barbara Walther sees enough evidence for the FLDS and against Texas, she will unite the women & children. If she continues to separate the women & children, despite opposing evidence, I know there will be an uprising of some sort. Don't worry, people. Whoever has done wrong will be dealt with.
This is America.
There will be Justice.
I object! | 11:32 a.m. April 17, 2008
I object to forcing underage girls into polygamous marriages.
Justice | 11:35 a.m. April 17, 2008
I think the parents all need to be rounded up an tribunals held....
Yahoo News | 11:45 a.m. April 17, 2008
Yahoo just posted that the only Pregnant females to be entered into evidence
were ages 17 and 18!!! Unless Yahoo is incorrect and this was a typo, Texas
legal age for marriage (polygamy aside) is 16 and up.. It is possible pregancies
occurred after 16! They DID NOT MENTION RAPE OR FORCED MARRIAGE OR ANYTHING.
Makes me wonder at the validity of CPS on this..they had me going if this is
true.. Deal with the polygamy if that is the issue and stop punishing the
children for the crimes of their fathers.
re: No Men | 11:41 a.m. April 17, 2008
Yahoo new posted of men in the courtroom and in overflow... Get the facts
straight..
Angelo Frank | 11:44 a.m. April 17, 2008
From the Dallas Morning News April 17, 2008...
"The closed society rarely talks to the media, but mothers have spoken repeatedly to reporters this week in an effort to win public sympathy for the case."
"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."
"The plea for public sympathy harkens to the infamous "Short Creek Raid" in the 1950s in Utah, where media reports of crying children being ripped from their mothers' arms were so effective and poignant that the governor of Utah was voted out of office � and the polygamists enjoyed relative peace for the next several decades."
Well, we have some news for you. The sympathy propaganda by the FLDS won't work here in Texas. We see through this mind controlling, child abusing, cult and justice will rain down on them from the stand of Judge Walther.
"The closed society rarely talks to the media, but mothers have spoken repeatedly to reporters this week in an effort to win public sympathy for the case."
"Many of the attorneys representing children say one question most often asked of them by the mothers in the case is how their message is playing out on TV and in the papers."
"The plea for public sympathy harkens to the infamous "Short Creek Raid" in the 1950s in Utah, where media reports of crying children being ripped from their mothers' arms were so effective and poignant that the governor of Utah was voted out of office � and the polygamists enjoyed relative peace for the next several decades."
Well, we have some news for you. The sympathy propaganda by the FLDS won't work here in Texas. We see through this mind controlling, child abusing, cult and justice will rain down on them from the stand of Judge Walther.
Comment | 11:45 a.m. April 17, 2008
I wish all of you radical pro-polygamy supporters would please get this through
your thick skulls, this is no an atack on polygamy, this is the sexual
explotation of teenage girls, plain and simple.
Polygamy between consenting, self sufficient adults (meaning no welfare, food stamps, state aid, etc) is perfectly OK in most peoples minds, altough yes it is still illegal.
Also, those children, deserve the right to a proper education, I understand they are trying to keep them "pure" or what not, but the law requires children to recieve an education.
Polygamy between consenting, self sufficient adults (meaning no welfare, food stamps, state aid, etc) is perfectly OK in most peoples minds, altough yes it is still illegal.
Also, those children, deserve the right to a proper education, I understand they are trying to keep them "pure" or what not, but the law requires children to recieve an education.
Margaret Cooke-ex FLDS | 11:54 a.m. April 17, 2008
I think it is too soon to terminate parental rights perminantly, but I think
that the truth needs to be told. I feel for the mothers and children. I have
yet to hear of substantiated allegations. Are there underage girls pregnant? Has
anyone identified and actual child(17 or younger) that has said they are abused
or there is physical evidence they have been abused? I believe we will end up
finding there are some that have been abused and that there are some that are
not and as well that some of the parents have been invloved with abuse and that
some have just turned a deaf ear to the obviouse abuse because they dare not
question the leaders. Either way it is abuse. Blind obedience in child abuse
makes them abusers too.I lived amoungst them for 35 years and they are taught to
put total trust in the leaders decisions. The best thing those women and men can
do it to admit responsibility in this by association to others that may have
masterminded the abuse. Blind obedience is not the way to heaven, and abuse is
abuse if you know of it you can speak out against it.
Well of course.. | 11:57 a.m. April 17, 2008
there would be objections from attorneys. It's there job isn't it?
And I would also like to know where the men of this FLDS bunch are; they are the
ones who should be on trial cause they caused this mess.
hotflash | 12:14 p.m. April 17, 2008
They never found the girl who called in. I think it was a prank. And if it WAS a
prank, and the allegations of abuse are unfounded (there is NO PROOF any
occurred) then the lives of all these people has been messed up, once again, by
our government who overreacted by storming that compound based on nothing more
than a stupid phone call.
Anonymous | 12:10 p.m. April 17, 2008
Don, the judge is not in a hurry to "steal" the kids, she is doing
what she is required by law, which is hold this hearing within 14 days of the
original decision to grant the state temporary custody.
Of course the children were being abused! All children in that compound are taught from birth that they were put on earth to create body's for God's spirit babies. Every girl is taught that her life's calling is to pop out as many babies as physically possible, and to start as soon as daddy and the prophet says.
This is not religious persecution and have never been, if it was, Texas Authorities would have gone in and arrested all the men (as they did with Short Creek), but that is not what they did, is it?
Every step CPS has taken so far has been to the letter of the law. You can read up about it in the Texas Family Code. Educate yourself.
Of course the children were being abused! All children in that compound are taught from birth that they were put on earth to create body's for God's spirit babies. Every girl is taught that her life's calling is to pop out as many babies as physically possible, and to start as soon as daddy and the prophet says.
This is not religious persecution and have never been, if it was, Texas Authorities would have gone in and arrested all the men (as they did with Short Creek), but that is not what they did, is it?
Every step CPS has taken so far has been to the letter of the law. You can read up about it in the Texas Family Code. Educate yourself.
Red | 12:10 p.m. April 17, 2008
First: my standard objection--There wasn't a call from a 16-year-old girl
with broken ribs, spiritually married to a 50ish guy, pregnant and with a baby
on her hip. There was an unidentified female voice who, as those who didn't
record her call, remember as claiming to be such. Accurate reporting would
identify these claims as allegations rather than established fact.
Second: Texas law was changed after the FLDS moved in, prompted by that move, and explicitly designed to block FLDS practices. The Trib reported as much in "FLDS case puts new Texas laws to the test" (since recalled from both the paper and its archives). This change in the law was openly designed to "prohibit the free exercise of religion;" Texas had never before in its history had a problem with an age consent of 14 years.
Second: Texas law was changed after the FLDS moved in, prompted by that move, and explicitly designed to block FLDS practices. The Trib reported as much in "FLDS case puts new Texas laws to the test" (since recalled from both the paper and its archives). This change in the law was openly designed to "prohibit the free exercise of religion;" Texas had never before in its history had a problem with an age consent of 14 years.
Another Parent | 12:17 p.m. April 17, 2008
While I believe that the FLDS faith is apostate, and in my own view, quite
strange, I must object to what is happening here. These parents love their
children. They were separated from the children forcefully. As a father, I can
only imagine how traumatized both the parents and children are. The whole raid
seems suspect to me. I certainly hope there is much more to the story than we
are being told. An unknown 16 year old girl makes a call, and a few disaffected
members hurl accusations, and families are separated? I really, really hope
there is much more to it than that.
Anonymous | 12:15 p.m. April 17, 2008
Why isn't each child judged individually? Where is the justice here?
Secondly, please define "family". If a family is defined as a Mother,
Father, and children, well I think the Gay community may have issue with that.
anon | 12:21 p.m. April 17, 2008
I am glad to see the pro bono attorneys fulfilling their obligations to their
clients so completely. Kudos to the Texas State Bar for organizing this. They
have lead attorneys, they probably have research attorneys. These pro bono
attorneys have organized a large law firm overnight in the Texas desert.
If this turns into parental rights versus child protective services, as I think these attorneys are positioning, they may blow a huge hole in the CPS way of doing business. They have the case before them to do it. Judging by the actions of the attorneys, I think that they will.
The opening salvos in this battle make me think that they have gone nuclear from the outset. Who controls the courtroom? The pro bono attorneys do. It is like watching Mike Tyson land opening blows on an amateur.
If this turns into parental rights versus child protective services, as I think these attorneys are positioning, they may blow a huge hole in the CPS way of doing business. They have the case before them to do it. Judging by the actions of the attorneys, I think that they will.
The opening salvos in this battle make me think that they have gone nuclear from the outset. Who controls the courtroom? The pro bono attorneys do. It is like watching Mike Tyson land opening blows on an amateur.
re: snickerdoodle | 12:26 p.m. April 17, 2008
Fact: there are allegations of abuse
Fact: there was NO reason to remove the children
Fact: the removals were NOT based phone call
(the removals were decided upon before any alleged phone calls were made)
Fact: Barbara Walther issued the order to take all the children, so she will find "cause" to continue the separation. Any efforts to prosecute those who have done wrong have been greatly hindered by this rash/unconstitutional/tragic/massive/egregious (take your pick) child seizure.
This is America.
Justice is being strangled as we idly watch on.
[typo corrections from the original post.]
Fact: there was NO reason to remove the children
Fact: the removals were NOT based phone call
(the removals were decided upon before any alleged phone calls were made)
Fact: Barbara Walther issued the order to take all the children, so she will find "cause" to continue the separation. Any efforts to prosecute those who have done wrong have been greatly hindered by this rash/unconstitutional/tragic/massive/egregious (take your pick) child seizure.
This is America.
Justice is being strangled as we idly watch on.
[typo corrections from the original post.]
Anonymous | 12:27 p.m. April 17, 2008
I think that when they get DNA on all of them they are going to open a whole new
can of worms... incest being one of them
Great | 12:35 p.m. April 17, 2008
Ya this will help are economy, wasteing money to spit familys apart. But they
were bracking the law. We have a right to live are life's the way we wish
the government has no right to tell us one dominit way to live unless it is
hurting someone.
So I guess this wont start a revelution in any way will this lets try to stay alive by year 2012? by spending tax money to rip the biggest families apart so we can be famous.
So I guess this wont start a revelution in any way will this lets try to stay alive by year 2012? by spending tax money to rip the biggest families apart so we can be famous.
Rico | 12:38 p.m. April 17, 2008
This is one of the most disgusting abuses of power I've had the misfortune
of witnessing in my long life.
What? | 12:41 p.m. April 17, 2008
Judge Walther is a Texas Communist period and end of story.
Child Abuse | 12:41 p.m. April 17, 2008
If you aren't willing to err on the side of protecting children from sexual
abuse, then you truly aren't concerned with civil rights.
Government has an obligation to protect the rights of its weakest and most defenseless citizens; in this case, the children, who have had no voice until now.
Government has an obligation to protect the rights of its weakest and most defenseless citizens; in this case, the children, who have had no voice until now.
Just Coincidence? | 12:43 p.m. April 17, 2008
I find it rather ironic that these legal proceedings are being conducted at the
Tom Green County Court House. Unless I am mistaken, there was a polygamist by
the name of Tom Green convicted of marrying underage girls here in Utah a few
years ago. I think he is still cooling his heels out at the state prison.
Scott26.2 | 12:49 p.m. April 17, 2008
If this were any other religious group in this country, with all other
circumstances being the same...Americans would be outraged at the treatment of
these children and their mothers. Where is the ACLU...
they change laws all the time | 12:51 p.m. April 17, 2008
how many has utah done ,only when it came to these groups it let them florish.
So momas do not let your babies grow up to be these guys as their always alone
and too young even with some one they love..brainwashed through and through!
Bottom line this isn't a legal religion not with a nut case as the prophet
with a cell number and not a cell phone. So get off it! I wonder who would come
to my rescue if i started some wing ding church like this!
Bigamy and Tax Fraud | 12:51 p.m. April 17, 2008
Inevitable discovery will have all adults of this compound charged with bigamy
under Texas laws, and eventually tax fraud under IRS laws for their bilking the
US taxpapers with all of their social service claims.
If the children go back home, beware of either a kool-aid scenario, or illegal border crossings INto Mexico, as Merrill Jessop sets up Second Zion in Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua!
Don't Mess With Texas...
If the children go back home, beware of either a kool-aid scenario, or illegal border crossings INto Mexico, as Merrill Jessop sets up Second Zion in Colonia Juarez, Chihuahua!
Don't Mess With Texas...
Jump | 12:53 p.m. April 17, 2008
I find it very ironic that the name of the court house is The Tom Green County
Court House where all this FLDS activity is taking place today. You all remember
Tom Green who just got out of Utah State Prison for bigomy (many wives) who
lives west of Nephi out in the desert. David Leavitts conquest. Maybe this will
bode well for the FLDS.
jc | 12:54 p.m. April 17, 2008
I am so sick of being told the children don't know their own names or the
names of their mothers and fathers! There are 100 children under age 3 or 4.
Their parents names are Mommy and Daddy. Ask a 1 or 2 year old what their name
or their parent's names are and of course you will not get a complete
answer. Don't assume that older children are being evasive just because we
are told some children don't know the names of their parents.
Tex | 12:55 p.m. April 17, 2008
The Eldorado group of the FLDS should abandon their compound and move back to
Utah or Arizona where the people/officials are apparently supportive of their
activities.
Unibrow Mom | 1:04 p.m. April 17, 2008
Just watching the interviews of these plain and simple women who have lost their
children was heart-rendering for the very fact that they "unknowingly"
perpetuate this century-old aberration by kindly handing over their daughters to
be raped by these cowardly men.
Are the women victims or accomplices?
I think victims of this patriarchal dictatorship. Intervention is required to break up and dismantle this, and every other such commune.
God bless Texas.
Are the women victims or accomplices?
I think victims of this patriarchal dictatorship. Intervention is required to break up and dismantle this, and every other such commune.
God bless Texas.
RE: Rico | 1:14 p.m. April 17, 2008
"one of the most disgusting abuses of power"
Do you mean the state of Texas, or the polygamist men?
Do you mean the state of Texas, or the polygamist men?
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Thanks, Judge.