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Fallout from FLDS raid is intense
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Norma | 10:10 a.m. April 16, 2008
Polygamy is nothing but sexists slavery of woman and children. It's kind of
like the Nazis camps as well, either way you look at, in the cult or out of the
cult. I hope Texas gets the children out of this cult.
jpmaxwell | 10:12 a.m. April 16, 2008
I saw that my previous comment needs clarification in that I am infuriated with
the moms thus far interviewed because they evade completely saying how old the
girls have to be to be married!
Comments continue below
John | 10:13 a.m. April 16, 2008
What happened to due process, and the necessity of showing cause or suspected
guilt before children are removed? Was this done in all 416 cases? It was done
in none - authorities can't even find the person originally of interest -
let alone have given him due process or investigated to show cause - he
wasn't even there.
I strongly support the removal of children who are abused - but were all 416? No way. Whether you agree with polygamy or not, this act trampled on constitutional rights and requirements.
I strongly support the removal of children who are abused - but were all 416? No way. Whether you agree with polygamy or not, this act trampled on constitutional rights and requirements.
Re: Red | 10:16 a.m. April 16, 2008
You CONVENIENTLY omitted one very important detail, all of the apparently
underaged girls who were pregnant and/or are already mothers that Texas
authorities discovered when they raided the compound, potential EVIDENCE, that
the very same type of child sexual abuse that prompted the search was
OCCURING.
I guess, if you had been in charge, you would have simply chosen the easy way out and left all the other abused kids to fend for themselves.
I guess, if you had been in charge, you would have simply chosen the easy way out and left all the other abused kids to fend for themselves.
Ben M | 10:20 a.m. April 16, 2008
It is astonishing that the word religion is even used in all this. This
so-called religion is all about men dominating and controlling women and, sadly,
little girls. The mothers, brainwashed since birth, take orders from the men and
let it happen. By doing so, they are as guilty as the men and I hope all of
those involved end up in prison. The brave, bold men of the FLDS are hiding
their faces while sending their women out to show their phony tears. It's
not unbelievable that the state of Texas took action. It's unbelievable
that any rational person would defend the actions in that compound.
Anonymous | 10:21 a.m. April 16, 2008
Such a waste of time, all this speculative talking.
Recommendation: why not all shut up until evidence is presented--if there is any, that is.
If not, TX better open up its big check book.
Recommendation: why not all shut up until evidence is presented--if there is any, that is.
If not, TX better open up its big check book.
Good Grief | 10:23 a.m. April 16, 2008
What is the matter with people that think it is okay to arrest and/or detain
someone based on the "POTENTIAL" they MIGHT be a victim of abuse.
Don't you understand that every man, woman, and child alive is a potential
victim of some crime? There is something seriously wrong with a society that
condones tearing families apart with no facts of wrong-doing, just basing their
actions on the potentiality that maybe, just maybe, there will be abuse.
In America | 10:23 a.m. April 16, 2008
Where the Consitution still stands for Law and Order.
We don't convict prior to due proces... oh, 'cept in Utah lots of times.
oh, and take away parental rights immediatly in Texas..
We don't convict prior to due proces... oh, 'cept in Utah lots of times.
oh, and take away parental rights immediatly in Texas..
Thomas | 10:25 a.m. April 16, 2008
Hearing all the people argue that it's unseemly to question the legality of
Texas' operation, given the sheer badness of the FLDS, I'm reminded of
a scene from the play "A Man For All Seasons":
"Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake."
Food for thought.
"Roper: So now you'd give the Devil benefit of law!
More: Yes. What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country's planted thick with laws from coast to coast -- man's laws, not God's -- and if you cut them down -- and you're just the man to do it -- do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake."
Food for thought.
well, Daniel | 10:27 a.m. April 16, 2008
a sucker is born every minute
but these gals are not even really all that good at fake crying
but these gals are not even really all that good at fake crying
mel in lv | 10:33 a.m. April 16, 2008
I don't understand you people!!!! In order to conduct a thorough and
complete investigation to determine who was and who wasn't abused requires
the state to remove all of the children and keep them from the influences
(brainwashing) they were exposed to. It has been said by some that the mothers
did not abuse the children. How do you know? Were you there? If the mothers knew
of the activity and allowed it to continue they were contributors. Have you not
heard of the word accomplice? I also don't understand the mass sympathy for
these law-breaking people. No matter what else is going on there they are
breaking the law by practicing polygamy!!!! It's funny, when something
horrid comes out like what is happening in Colorado City with the birth deffects
ocurring from inter-marrying in another polygamous sect, I think it would be all
of you people to cry , "Why didn't the government do something?"
"Why didn't they do something to save these poor children?"
Doug S | 10:37 a.m. April 16, 2008
I'm just curious - why is it that when the TX authorities saw pregnant
teenagers, they automatically assumed that the fathers were not also teenagers?
Are the rumors spread by a couple of disaffected members with book deals
sufficient to establish "probable cause" in such a case?
don't mess with texas | 10:41 a.m. April 16, 2008
i'm curious. alotn of the bloggers on this site is critisizing texas cps
for for the removal of minor children who they believe is in immenant danger.
and they beleive it is their parents who are putting them in danger. this agency
has the right to by law to remove these children.
now i understand that they are having trouble locating this minor named sarah. and it should not matter if they ever find her, for the children were remove by what authories found while conducting their investigation.....remember....these are allegations of abuse....sexual abuse to children. there is vidence of several minors pregnant. an the flds are commonly know to marry children with older men...thats illegal...so is rape.incest and polygamy....RIGHTS RIGHTS RIGHT....is what i hear alot of people shouting.what about the right of a chold to live and grow up free from the abuses of predators of the likes of the flds.....if this was your neighbor you would be appalled.....i feel for the children...but this is surley what needed to be done....doing the right thing is not always popular
now i understand that they are having trouble locating this minor named sarah. and it should not matter if they ever find her, for the children were remove by what authories found while conducting their investigation.....remember....these are allegations of abuse....sexual abuse to children. there is vidence of several minors pregnant. an the flds are commonly know to marry children with older men...thats illegal...so is rape.incest and polygamy....RIGHTS RIGHTS RIGHT....is what i hear alot of people shouting.what about the right of a chold to live and grow up free from the abuses of predators of the likes of the flds.....if this was your neighbor you would be appalled.....i feel for the children...but this is surley what needed to be done....doing the right thing is not always popular
Lionheart | 10:35 a.m. April 16, 2008
To Anon 10:21. TX open up its big check book? I doubt any FLDS will sue, that
would open them up to further investigation, something they really don't
want. They won't be taking on the State of Texas. They will have figured
out Texas is not a friendly environment. Maybe they will move to Mexico. Many
polygamist did in the early 1900. Don't know how many of them survived the
bandits.
Re: John | 10:42 a.m. April 16, 2008
"I strongly support the removal of children who are abused..."
Don't you also support the removal of the siblings of an abused child? Or should we just leave the other children in the home until they also show signs of being abused?
And, what if the home includes a half-dozen "wives" and a couple dozen kids with several more 13-16 y/o girls? If one of the 13 y/o sisters has already been forced into an arranged marriage, should we just wait until the others are actually abused in the same manner before we act?
Sorry missy, it looks like your sister was sexually abused by being forced into a "spiritual" marriage with a 50 y/o pedophile, but you're apparently okay. Give us a call if that changes.
Don't you also support the removal of the siblings of an abused child? Or should we just leave the other children in the home until they also show signs of being abused?
And, what if the home includes a half-dozen "wives" and a couple dozen kids with several more 13-16 y/o girls? If one of the 13 y/o sisters has already been forced into an arranged marriage, should we just wait until the others are actually abused in the same manner before we act?
Sorry missy, it looks like your sister was sexually abused by being forced into a "spiritual" marriage with a 50 y/o pedophile, but you're apparently okay. Give us a call if that changes.
JND | 10:36 a.m. April 16, 2008
To michaelh who wrote, "I WILL NEVER SET FOOT IN TEXAS!!!": On behalf
of all Texans, I say, "THANK YOU!!!"
CA | 10:44 a.m. April 16, 2008
When the police went to find the girl that called they saw many teen aged
looking girls who also appeared to be pregnant. When the officer asked one girl
how old she was, the girl did not answer but looked to the husband. The husband
said "You are 18." The girl turned to the officer and said
"I'm 18." That why all the kids were taken- because they were
lying. The phones were removed when it was realized the men were calling and
telling the women and kids what to do and say. The women would not ID the kids.
That's why they were separated. These people are making it worse on
themselves by being dishonest. If the kids wnat to go back when they grow up-
Great! But no children should be raised with only one life choice. The women
(and children)are clearly brainwashed- listen to their modulated "keep
sweet" voices. Look at their lack of tears. Observe the lack of
books/toys.They are not allowed to show emotion- it disturbs the men.
Califas | 10:51 a.m. April 16, 2008
WAIT FOR THE EVIDENCE, FOLKS! It will be so damning and so horrifying, that all
these crocodile tears for the "poor moms and dads" will be for naught!
This "religion" will be outed for what it is: A SEX CULT! The old
pervs, masquerading as "church elders", will be unmasked. We will
discover--as the government of Texas has known--that little girls are traded as
sex slaves throughout the cult. FLDS will make the child sex industry of
Thailand look like Disneyland!! Worse yet, these so-called mothers will be
shown to be abusive when the plight of their "lost boys" is
publicized. These mothers have allowed the perverted older men of the community
to banish their defenseless young sons to the outside world, where these same
sons must fend for themselves on the streets of America! These so-called
mothers and fathers callously abandon their sons to the world, because the old
perverted men see the boys as potential competition for sexual access to the
little girls! How grotesque is that? Huh? What monsters are these
"parents" to have so utterly failed their children?
Anonymous | 10:45 a.m. April 16, 2008
I THINK THEY HAULED THE WRONG GENDER OUT, THEY SHOULD OF ROUNDED UP THE MEN
!!!!!!!!!!!!!
THOSE POOR WOMEN ARE IN SLAVERY.....
IF THEY TAKE THE CHILDREN AWAY IT WILL BE THEIR LUCKY DAY !
THE WOMEN SHOULD RUN FOR THEIR LIFE.
THOSE POOR WOMEN ARE IN SLAVERY.....
IF THEY TAKE THE CHILDREN AWAY IT WILL BE THEIR LUCKY DAY !
THE WOMEN SHOULD RUN FOR THEIR LIFE.
observer | 10:54 a.m. April 16, 2008
I'm really sick and tired of this ongoing saga, and don't plan on
reading the paper anymore.
Anonymous | 10:57 a.m. April 16, 2008
THE ONLY LAW THAT THE FDLS PEOPLE OBSERVE IS THE WELFARE SYSTEM.
ALL OF THESE UNWED MOTHERS ARE ON WELFARE, WE THE TAX PAYER ARE FUNDING THEIR CAUSE EACH MONTH.
LET'S GET A CLUE.
EVEN THIER OWN LEADER JEFFS DENIES HIS DEVINE ROLE, HE IS A FRAUD.
LET THESE PEOPLE FREE.
ALL OF THESE UNWED MOTHERS ARE ON WELFARE, WE THE TAX PAYER ARE FUNDING THEIR CAUSE EACH MONTH.
LET'S GET A CLUE.
EVEN THIER OWN LEADER JEFFS DENIES HIS DEVINE ROLE, HE IS A FRAUD.
LET THESE PEOPLE FREE.
Mike | 11:03 a.m. April 16, 2008
I proudly live in Texas!!
Apparently the defenders of this ongoing child abuse have never read or listened to former members who finally escaped this insanity.
Don't mess with the kids of Texas.
Go Texas!!
Apparently the defenders of this ongoing child abuse have never read or listened to former members who finally escaped this insanity.
Don't mess with the kids of Texas.
Go Texas!!
Jacob | 11:05 a.m. April 16, 2008
Anyone who condones child abuse and slavery of women is a true loser!
Preston Naylor | 10:59 a.m. April 16, 2008
If any abuse has occured why are not the men occused of the abuse arrested?
Tragically the Court authorized heavily armed law enforcement officers to take
(arrest) the victims, women and children, against their will based on a single
spurious, unsubstaniated phone allegation of child abuse while the men were left
alone and free. What ever happened to due process? Does any one think for a
second these families feel safe in the protective nurturing care of the state?
Frankly the only substantiated abuse that has occured has been by the State of
Texas. Futhermore all parents should be concerned about this horrible precedence
which will only jepordize the constitutional rights and responsibilities of
Parents and further embolden unjustified goverenment interfence into our
personal lives.
to Califas | 11:01 a.m. April 16, 2008
Califas: You are exactly right. The Mothers should be prosecuted along with the
fathers. This has gone on since the beginning and it is time to bring it to an
end.
stay sweet | 11:04 a.m. April 16, 2008
the 3 gals fake sobbing was priceless. ducking the question about if there are
any 16 year old girls married to older men
Don't Mess... | 11:11 a.m. April 16, 2008
Just a comment that the "Don't Mess With Texas" slogan is from an
anti-litter campaign, not an expression of the character of the people of Texas.
katie | 11:06 a.m. April 16, 2008
i have a hard time with this subject. on one hand i feel texas did what they
thought was right. it's an odd situation with the FLDS church. They are
isolated and do things very different than most people. People have a hard time
understanding why they do the things they do. A lot of people don't even
understand just what is going on in those towns. Social services received a call
from a girl who claimed to being sexually abused. That's a definite call to
action. Well when you enter a community that seems very strange compared to the
rest of the country, seeing MANY children, MANY wive (many of which are very
very young), you begin to suspect the worst. So them taking hundreds of children
was the only thing they knew to do with the situation they were given. We
defintely want to protect children from harmful situations.
At the same time though, I'm worried it might have been taken too far. I feel sorry for the innocent people involved, which likely is most of them. They do what they feel is right. Just because its strange to the rest of the country, doesn't make it wrong.
At the same time though, I'm worried it might have been taken too far. I feel sorry for the innocent people involved, which likely is most of them. They do what they feel is right. Just because its strange to the rest of the country, doesn't make it wrong.
Justin | 11:15 a.m. April 16, 2008
It is inherently harmful to children of religious zealots to inculcate their
children with religious views which anyone with common sense knows is false.
The State can and should protect the children of these zealots by taking custody
of these children by force, deprograming them, and replacing their belief system
with one that is approved by the State.
Definition of religious zealot: anyone who believes sincerely and passionately in a faith system which is obviously not true nor believeable as determined by those in power, i.e. that a person can die and come back to eternal life, that a person not present can "hear" the thoughts not only of my mind but of billions of others at the same time, that water or blood can take away the guilt of my wrongful acts, that by merely professing belief in a person, my eternal happiness in assured, . . .
Definition of religious zealot: anyone who believes sincerely and passionately in a faith system which is obviously not true nor believeable as determined by those in power, i.e. that a person can die and come back to eternal life, that a person not present can "hear" the thoughts not only of my mind but of billions of others at the same time, that water or blood can take away the guilt of my wrongful acts, that by merely professing belief in a person, my eternal happiness in assured, . . .
To Good Grief | 11:16 a.m. April 16, 2008
Good Grief: If a policeman is walking down the street and sees someone pointing
a gun at someone else. Should he (a) Wait until he actually shoots him or (b)
Stop the situation and see what the situation is about. I recommend stopping the
situation, even though you only have a potential dead man, because once the guy
is dead you can not make him un-dead. You can not make a child un-abused.
Ned B. | 11:16 a.m. April 16, 2008
I agree with STAY SWEET,
Those women yesterday were the biggest fakes I have ever laid eyes on while watching the news, when the media cameras hit their faces, the FLDS women immediately started their fake acting and sobbing. That was the worst acting I have ever seen in a quick movie. Geezes!
Those women yesterday were the biggest fakes I have ever laid eyes on while watching the news, when the media cameras hit their faces, the FLDS women immediately started their fake acting and sobbing. That was the worst acting I have ever seen in a quick movie. Geezes!
Natejess | 11:18 a.m. April 16, 2008
I do not condone abuse of any kind against any person (male, female, adult, or
child).
But I feel that Texas has gone about this situation the wrong way by discarding the constitution in rounding up these families.
They have opened Pandora's Box, and I doubt anyone is going to be able to close it now, even the Supreme Court.
But I feel that Texas has gone about this situation the wrong way by discarding the constitution in rounding up these families.
They have opened Pandora's Box, and I doubt anyone is going to be able to close it now, even the Supreme Court.
Scared Crapless! | 11:29 a.m. April 16, 2008
Anytime a government agency goes in to a community and absconds with ALL its
children in the name of 'child safety policy,' something is seriously
wrong with the system, and regardless of if that community's religious
beliefs and practices are agreed with or not (of which I strongly disagree
with), certain Constitutional factors should be very carefully held to, or the
backfire can be huge and onerous on the government.
When the dust settles on this one I'm betting that the legal machines are going to finally get into high gear and chew the State of Texas (and any other religious organization that participated in this fiasco) up and spit them back out with huge settlements to the FLDS.
The FLDS compounds may be the personification of Stepfordville squared, with all its inherent problems, but this thing of acting on anonymous tips in Tiger-like fashion has got to be pulled in and all states CPS agencies made to be accountable to the law, not to perceived best interests of a child. And, a whole community should not suffer for what a few miscreants do in that community, leastwise to the point of absconding with all their children.
It's wrong!
When the dust settles on this one I'm betting that the legal machines are going to finally get into high gear and chew the State of Texas (and any other religious organization that participated in this fiasco) up and spit them back out with huge settlements to the FLDS.
The FLDS compounds may be the personification of Stepfordville squared, with all its inherent problems, but this thing of acting on anonymous tips in Tiger-like fashion has got to be pulled in and all states CPS agencies made to be accountable to the law, not to perceived best interests of a child. And, a whole community should not suffer for what a few miscreants do in that community, leastwise to the point of absconding with all their children.
It's wrong!
take out the trash | 11:25 a.m. April 16, 2008
RE:
Don't Mess... | 11:11 a.m. Apr. 16, 2008
Just a comment that the "Don't Mess With Texas" slogan is from an anti-litter campaign, not an expression of the character of the people of Texas.
approprate none the less!
I bet Texas can't wait to get this FLDS trash cleaned out of their state
Don't Mess... | 11:11 a.m. Apr. 16, 2008
Just a comment that the "Don't Mess With Texas" slogan is from an anti-litter campaign, not an expression of the character of the people of Texas.
approprate none the less!
I bet Texas can't wait to get this FLDS trash cleaned out of their state
Taylor | 11:36 a.m. April 16, 2008
It was a pretty childish act the FLDS woman did for the Media yesterday. I
watched the whole thing on CNN and those FLDS women looked like 5 year old girls
instead of grown mature women. Quite pitiful! I'm just wondering what on
earth those FLDS men are doing to the minds of those women for them to act like
that? It was way too weird. My family freaked when they saw those kind of
actions coming from grown women.
unsupervised POWER of DCFS | 11:42 a.m. April 16, 2008
We have been victims ourselves of DCFS's unsupervised POWER.
But this experience showed us how much they can HURT families, not help.
They are needed but they need to have some supervision themselves. Yes it may be true that children may not speak openly with parents around but how hard would it be to put one more SAFETY NET in place? I think that any interview with a child should be TAPE RECORDED to protect the Child, the parents, and the worker. I've seen too many workers put thoughts into a child's mind and play with words to the point of confusing a child. What damage would there be to keep them in check by recording the interview? In the longrun it protects all parties involved!
But this experience showed us how much they can HURT families, not help.
They are needed but they need to have some supervision themselves. Yes it may be true that children may not speak openly with parents around but how hard would it be to put one more SAFETY NET in place? I think that any interview with a child should be TAPE RECORDED to protect the Child, the parents, and the worker. I've seen too many workers put thoughts into a child's mind and play with words to the point of confusing a child. What damage would there be to keep them in check by recording the interview? In the longrun it protects all parties involved!
Texas Neighbor | 11:36 a.m. April 16, 2008
The fact that the legal age to marry is 16 is important only is you are talking
about a man's first legal marriage. Any later spiritual marriage is not
recognized by the state, so it is the statutory rape laws that apply.
Anonymous | 11:45 a.m. April 16, 2008
Texas is the worst state in the union.
Texans need to get a life! | 11:44 a.m. April 16, 2008
Why all the whoop'n and holler'n about Texas? This has nothing to do
with Texas pride.
"Don't mess with the kids of Texas" is a great slogan, but the success of Texas CPS belies the slogan.
These are kids. Most born outside Texas. Who cares where they are from? If they are being abused, arrest the abusers. Don't 'arrest' 416 kids who might be abused.
And keep your arrogant Texas pride to yourselves. It is not germane to the issue. What is germane is if people abused their children and if the authorities abused the constitution.
I say we divide Alaska into three different states so Texas can be the fourth largest state.
Texas pride. What a bunch of idiots!
"Don't mess with the kids of Texas" is a great slogan, but the success of Texas CPS belies the slogan.
These are kids. Most born outside Texas. Who cares where they are from? If they are being abused, arrest the abusers. Don't 'arrest' 416 kids who might be abused.
And keep your arrogant Texas pride to yourselves. It is not germane to the issue. What is germane is if people abused their children and if the authorities abused the constitution.
I say we divide Alaska into three different states so Texas can be the fourth largest state.
Texas pride. What a bunch of idiots!
kay | 11:39 a.m. April 16, 2008
i to believe if child abuse was honestly committed then let judgement stand
according to the law.....but in my case after getting out of polygamy with my
childern and seeking help from my family in ohio, the state of ohio arbituarly
stripped me of my parental rights of my childern. i was never charged of any
crime. i carry a medical liscence and you cant do that if you are a criminal of
child abuse. i called flora jessop and tapestry against polygamy to help me
during these 3 yrs trying to get my childern back. i went to the media and
received retribution by the court of cuyahoga county for telling my story to the
public. i pray with all my heart that texas will treat each case FAIRLY and with
TRUE proof and not make and example of these mothers as happened to me in ohio.
Women will NEVER seek help from the system to come out of polygamy if they see
others being mistreated. i havnt seen my childern in over a year nor am i
allowed to call them. REMEMBER i was never charged with a crime.
Non-Texan | 11:45 a.m. April 16, 2008
I thought we lived in America where we, the people, have rights. Innocent
people should never be persecuted under threat of having children removed from
the family simply because of their regious beliefs. Especially by their state
or federal government. What we should be asking is if probable cause standards
of abuse have been met prior to separating the children from the parents. If
so, procecute the guilty and leave the innocent alone. Shame on you Texas and
shame on us for not holding the state responsible for their actions.
Joyce | 11:46 a.m. April 16, 2008
First, let me say that I think polygamy between consenting adults should be
legalized, however, I support Texas completely. They went in on a warrent, saw
evidence of another crime, in this case obviously underage pregnant girls. They
were within the legal rights to take these girls and their parents and
"husbands" and other children of the same families into custody.
These girls would not identify their families, or even give their last names.
Under those circumstances, all the children of the "residence," in
this case ranch, legally should be taken into custody. The women of the FLDS do
not have true free will. They think they do, but because of how they were
raised, they do not. Even the Amish are allowed some contact with the outside
world, and their teens are encouraged to look at the outside world before
committing their lives to the church lifestyle. The FLDS don't have that.
Actually, I think even most of the men are victims of just a few men that have
become insane with power and lust.
Califas | 11:48 a.m. April 16, 2008
HEED WELL THE WISDOM OF SOLDIERGAL! HER VOICE IS THE MOST COMPASSIONATE OF THEM
ALL...
Which Governor | 11:56 a.m. April 16, 2008
Which Governor used the following words to justify the actions of the state over
which he governed?
"I have received by [state employee] one of my aids, information of the most appalling character, which entirely changes the face of things, and places the [religious group] in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this state. Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operation with all possible speed.
The [religious group] must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace--their outrages are beyond all description."
Everyone who thinks they know which governor wrote this raise your hands.
Everyone who guessed Texas Governor Perry lower your hands and retake U.S. history.
Now, everyone who thinks that these words would never be applied to their religious group lower your hands and read the words of George Santayana [1863-1953, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"].
The answer? Governor Lilburn W. Boggs.
The treatment of girls by the FLDS is a perversion and I abhor it. That, however does not justify Texas.
"I have received by [state employee] one of my aids, information of the most appalling character, which entirely changes the face of things, and places the [religious group] in the attitude of an open and avowed defiance of the laws, and of having made war upon the people of this state. Your orders are, therefore, to hasten your operation with all possible speed.
The [religious group] must be treated as enemies, and must be exterminated or driven from the state if necessary for the public peace--their outrages are beyond all description."
Everyone who thinks they know which governor wrote this raise your hands.
Everyone who guessed Texas Governor Perry lower your hands and retake U.S. history.
Now, everyone who thinks that these words would never be applied to their religious group lower your hands and read the words of George Santayana [1863-1953, "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it"].
The answer? Governor Lilburn W. Boggs.
The treatment of girls by the FLDS is a perversion and I abhor it. That, however does not justify Texas.
Good Grief | 11:52 a.m. April 16, 2008
Wake up. The cop in your scenario will take instant control. Either the person
holding the gun will be arrested for its misuse or the person being held will be
arrested for threatening the gun holders life or property. There is no
"potentially wrong person" in your scenario. Somebody screwed up and
will be arrested.
good for the goose? | 11:55 a.m. April 16, 2008
Why is it that the same people clamoring for the heads of our illegal immigrant
Mexican brothers and sisters now want us to put blinders on and ignore the
law-breaking actions of this group?
Texas | 11:55 a.m. April 16, 2008
To all you weirdo Utahns that are so quick to criticize Texas and say Texas is
out of line - that is nothing more than the pot calling the kettle black. If
Utah had done what it was supposed to have done, this whole issue would have
been cleared years ago and Texas wouldn't have to clean up the mess Utah
refused to clean up.
I lived in Utah (born and raised), and now live in Texas, and I love it here. I will never return to Utah, and plan on staying in Texas my entire life.
Again, Texas is only doing what Utah should have done many, many years ago but was too afraid to do. Yep, it's Texas taking care of America again!!
I lived in Utah (born and raised), and now live in Texas, and I love it here. I will never return to Utah, and plan on staying in Texas my entire life.
Again, Texas is only doing what Utah should have done many, many years ago but was too afraid to do. Yep, it's Texas taking care of America again!!
My Outrage | 11:59 a.m. April 16, 2008
Do I believe that the government of Texas should take action to protect the
victims of abuse? Absolutely.
My outrage is twofold. First, I am outraged that "religious" men would abuse children in such an evil way. Second, I am outraged that the Texas law enforcement system would show such contempt for the law and violate the rights of their citizens.
Prosecuting and punishing the people responsible for these atrocities on women and children is hard work that takes years to yield results.
My fear is that five years from now, the Texas legal system will have failed have convicted a single FLDS pedophile because they did not take the time and effort to follow the law and do the long thankless work that Mark Shurtleff has engaged these past eight years in Utah.
I fear that five years from now, all Texas will have accomplished is setting a precedent for unjustified search and seizure of children from families that CPS deems, in their "wisdom", to be unworthy.
In its rush to do "whatever necessary to protect children", I fear Texas will have made it more difficult for people like Mr. Shurtleff to punish the real criminals.
My outrage is twofold. First, I am outraged that "religious" men would abuse children in such an evil way. Second, I am outraged that the Texas law enforcement system would show such contempt for the law and violate the rights of their citizens.
Prosecuting and punishing the people responsible for these atrocities on women and children is hard work that takes years to yield results.
My fear is that five years from now, the Texas legal system will have failed have convicted a single FLDS pedophile because they did not take the time and effort to follow the law and do the long thankless work that Mark Shurtleff has engaged these past eight years in Utah.
I fear that five years from now, all Texas will have accomplished is setting a precedent for unjustified search and seizure of children from families that CPS deems, in their "wisdom", to be unworthy.
In its rush to do "whatever necessary to protect children", I fear Texas will have made it more difficult for people like Mr. Shurtleff to punish the real criminals.
Sokol | 12:05 p.m. April 16, 2008
I am boycotting Texas for the remainder of my life.
If anyone organizes rallies to support the families
and their children, I will be there...It is fascistic. There is a stench of discrimination.
The state had one allegation about one parent...NOT
416...This will show the nation the frightful power
that states have grabbed to deny parents their rights
over allegations not proven facts....Meisner can say anything about the children's welfare. It was traumatic, unneccessary, unconstitutional and the
worst event I have witnessed in the United States
in my life...The children and parents should sue
this state for every penny they have...AVOID THE
TEXAS NAZI STATE OF AMERICA. Go somewhere else to
spend your money.
If anyone organizes rallies to support the families
and their children, I will be there...It is fascistic. There is a stench of discrimination.
The state had one allegation about one parent...NOT
416...This will show the nation the frightful power
that states have grabbed to deny parents their rights
over allegations not proven facts....Meisner can say anything about the children's welfare. It was traumatic, unneccessary, unconstitutional and the
worst event I have witnessed in the United States
in my life...The children and parents should sue
this state for every penny they have...AVOID THE
TEXAS NAZI STATE OF AMERICA. Go somewhere else to
spend your money.
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Rep. Drew Darby addresses the media during a briefing in San Angelo, Texas, Tuesday. "As a human being, none of us like human misery, nor do we like the abuse of children," he said. "We have a saying here: 'Don't mess with Texas.' I'm going to change it up and say, 'Don't mess with the children of Texas.'"
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I�m not FLDS, nor do I sympathize with child abusers.
This article indicated that the medical staff has not been involved in conducted any sexual abuse exams to date. Yet, the CPS rep stated �If we have evidence to warrant a sexual abuse exam, we would go forward.� From this I derive that none of the children have come forward to admit sexual relations in order for the State to proceed with an exam. Unless all the victims are pregnant, conducting a sexual abuse exam is an important part of evidence�.There can be �clues� that a child has been abused or sexually active.
Surely the government is not going take custody of ALL these children based solely on testimony from ex-members or rumors of widespread abuse disguised as religious practice. There should be some corroborating evidence besides observing a few pregnant teens---at least direct testimony from victims. Without direct evidence, the State would have to rely on indirect evidence, which is essentially asking for custody because they believe sexual abuse is a known FLDS religious practice. I wonder how it will fly? It leaves the appellate door open. Hope the State has a stronger case than what appears.