Deseret News | First look inside YFZ Ranch

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First look inside YFZ Ranch

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Sheryl | 2:58 p.m. April 14, 2008

Come on people - wake up! I can't believe the total stupidity of so many posters in this thread. You CAN'T round up the men because there isn't yet concrete proof of who committed the crimes - the men would be out in 48 hours and then the women and children would be in worse danger!

It was imperative that they remove all the children to keep them safe and to find out exactly what was happening to them. There's no way any of the children or the mothers would have talked while still in the confines of the ranch. Their fear of retribution and punishment would have prevented the authorities from getting any useful information.

If this had been a Jim Jones type tragedy, then so many of you here would be screaming "why didn't the government step in and do something!"

Oh - and you stupid libs - this has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with the fact that President Bush is from Texas. Making comments like that just shows your stupidity.

This article was written for the express purpose of gaining sympathy for these evildoers - and I have no doubt the leaders of FLDS were behind it!

Patrick | 2:59 p.m. April 14, 2008

Most of the commentors here are missing the point, The state of Texas did not move in because they are polygamists ( I mean, really, how long did it take to build that compound and everyone knew they were FLDS) It is the fact that these disturbed leaders are ordering underage girls into marriages of much older pedophile men.That is the true crime in all of this, If they want to remain polygamists, and all parties to a polygamous marriage are adults, who cares, but if they are forcing kids into marriage then that is revolting, and violates dozens of our laws designed to protect children.

nikalseyn | 3:01 p.m. April 14, 2008

Where are all those Republicans who were upset at the Elian Gonzales and David Koresh situations? They remain silent now. This is what happens when you want the government to take care of you---health care, schools, pay your mortgage, etc. If you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

Comments continue below

Eddie | 3:01 p.m. April 14, 2008

Since when is child rape considered free expression of religion?

Texan | 3:03 p.m. April 14, 2008

This is not about religion as some have commented. It is strictly about childhood sexual abuse.

For all the women in the audience, when was it right for you to be given away by your parents at the young age of 12-16 and offered to a 30-50 year old man as a bride? Is this not against everyhitng the women's right has fought for over these last centuries??

(an illegimate bride at that, as some have also commented that many of these men don't actually marry multiple times rather they just co-habitate with them).

For any guy here that thinks marrying a 12-16 year old (or co-habitating with them if you will) is normal, you probably are already on the sex offenders database already.

Wake up people, it is not about Gov't vs. FLDS, it is about sexual abuse!!

John N | 3:04 p.m. April 14, 2008

(1) If my religion compels me to kill you, am I free to practice it? Freedom of religion isn't license to break the secular laws.

(2) Polygamy leaves a "bachelor herd" with little hope of marrying. Young men with no prospects are dangerous.

These are not laissez faire lifestyle choices. These actions have consequences which are destructive to the culture as evidenced by other current world affairs.

Fifty year-old men bedding barely post-pubescent women isn't love, it isn't pedophilia as (biologically, at least) these aren't children. It is perversion. Even in countries where arranged marriages are common and successful, you do not have this arrangement.

(Where are all the feminists decrying the lack of 14-year-old boys being married to fifty-something women, he asked satirically?)

Nancy | 3:07 p.m. April 14, 2008

First, I think that the very small children do belong with their mothers - especially if there is no evidence of abuse. That said - I don't care how many wives a man wants, but those wives should be over the age of 18 and enter polygamy without being forced. This sounds like a bunch of pedophiles who are hiding behind religion to have sex with girls. These thirteen and fourteen year old girls are brainwashed and told that it's the only way they'll ever get to Heaven. Disgusting. I think that the mother in the article that complains that authorities are ignoring the law is laughable - their whole lifestyle is built around ignoring the laws of the land. Again - marry as many adult women as you can talk into it - but leave the little girls alone.

they're nothing but thugs... | 3:08 p.m. April 14, 2008

Well...look on the bright side: the last time the government raided a church compound in Texas, a lot of men, women, and children ended up dying as a result. I think that, too, was done in the name of "helping the abused children".
It's sickening to the core, but at least they haven't killed anyone or burned the place to the ground (yet).

Rita | 3:15 p.m. April 14, 2008

Do you people read? This is not about religion. This is about sexual and physical abuse of children.

wayne | 3:10 p.m. April 14, 2008

Is the government funding this organization through some program or welfare payments ? I got that impression through one news report. Crimes against children trump finances. What do these people do for a living ? Does our government make this possible? Follow the money.

Victoria | 3:17 p.m. April 14, 2008

I think this is just difficult in every sense.
Do they promise underage girls, yes, I was "promised" at 7 YO for later when I was 14, but my mother got me away. Even then at 16 they tracked me down and sent pictures of the man I was "promised" to. So I know that part is true.
I don't much care what happens to the parents, they knowingly set this up and supported it.However, traumatizing 400 children just cannot be the right answer.These children will never feel safe or trusting again.

I think the power of the State went a little crazy, and I hope somebody has some common sense soon. But do you send them back to this totally controlled, restricted, unrealistic situation?

How do you give them back trust, safety, normalicy?

Time for a modern day Solomon.

Why haven't these cults been treated like James Jones or David Koresh? Because they are clean and polite, its different? A cult,is a cult, is a cult, is a cult.

Rachel | 3:14 p.m. April 14, 2008

Right on, Nation of Laws. You have said it all. Find the girl, if she exists. Let the others have their God-given right to their religion.

Beth | 3:16 p.m. April 14, 2008

I feel so torn on this issue. As the mother of 2 daughters - 2 and 4 years old, I can't imagine being apart from them and not knowing if I would lose custody of them. My kids are my life . . . I feel for the children involved - how scared they must be -and the parents who are worried about losing their kids.

But on the other hand if there are underage LITTLE GIRLS being "married" to older men, in my opinion that is nothing more than a pedophile raping a little girl and that needs to stop.

wordhungry | 3:17 p.m. April 14, 2008

This from the lawyers for the no longer great state of Texas
"Attorneys for the children told the judge this weekend that cell phones needed to be removed to prevent 'improper communication, tampering with witnesses and interference with the attorney-client relationship.'

So, I guess the "stolen children" no longer can have contact with their mothers.

Famileeguy | 3:26 p.m. April 14, 2008

Wow! Another raid by jack booted thugs against women and children is Texas. Well at least Janet Reno wasn't there to send in the tanks this time around.
Funny thing, Muslims are allowed to have multiple wives. Do you think none of the practicing Muslims in this country are taking advantage of it? Of course they are. The fact is the authorities will NEVER take action against them.

janvanholland | 3:22 p.m. April 14, 2008

Yet another group that have replaced reason for belief in yet another version of the 'sky god'. This time using him to endorse their claim on reproductive rights with groups of females. Where did we see this before? They should not be allowed to brainwash their kids. But then, this kind of 'unreason' (belief in a sky god) is so widespread and persistent in this world, that chances of a cure seem remote.

Anne | 3:24 p.m. April 14, 2008

From what I've read, "What Rights" is correct; they investigated this girl's call (sobbing, obviously distraught), and found young girls pregnant, and (supposedly), some with several children already. One of the church elders is apparently serving time in Arizona for conspiracy to have sex with a minor.

Regardless of whether or not you think freedom of religion extends to polygamy (if you read Nonie Darwish's book you'll see how polygamy has destroyed trust and families in Muslim countries), an underage girl pregnant is WRONG; don't tell me laws were passed to target this group. Sex with youths is wrong and has been wrong for a long time.

If the authorities saw a pattern of this on the ranch, that's surely probably cause for a complete search. The reason the kids were taken I'm sure is over concern that instead of stopping this pattern, everyone knew about it; speaks of complicity in committing the crime (sex with a minor).

Jack J | 3:25 p.m. April 14, 2008

Adult males sexually abusing under-age girls is illegal, a felony! What part of this do FLDS members not understand? The issue here is NOT polygamy, though that is also illegal. Its about adults abusing children sexually and trying to justify it by citing some bush "religion"! I salute the Texas officials, they're doing what had to be done. Its going to be a long, tough case, because FLDS will attempt a cover-up. But they won't succeed.

patriotnky | 3:28 p.m. April 14, 2008

IF CRIMES WERE COMMITED,CHARGE THE INDIVIDUALS,PROVE THE CASE. THE WAY THIS HAS BEEN HANDLED IS WRONG AND DANGEROUS!. WHAT MESSAGE IS BEING SENT? JACK BOOTED THUGS WILL RAID YOUR HOME AND DRAG YOU AWAY IF SOMETHING AS SIMPLE AS AN ANONOMUS PHONE CALL IS RECIEVED SAYING SOMETHING ILLEGLE IS OCCURING? DO THEY (LAW ENFORCEMENT) WANT MORE WACOS? NOT EVERY HOME WILL BE "PUSHOVERS". GOD HELP US ALL! BUY MORE AMMO!

TAW | 3:36 p.m. April 14, 2008

It was wrong to remove all the children from their homes. These little ones will be traumatized by this government abuse for the rest of their lives. The investigation could have taken place without removing the children from their homes.

I remember when Florida CPS was out of control under Fl. State Attny. Gen. Janet Reno and all parents were guilty until proven innocent. Many children removed from their homes on the flimsiest of allegations.

I remember Waco and the Branch Davidians. All killed by the government on exagerated charges so the BATF could justify a bigger budget.

I remember Randy Weaver at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. FBI shot his son and wife, because 'they were those religious gun nuts'.

As a home schooling Christian, I wonder when my door will be knocked down and my children taken away because of an anonymous complaint from someone who doesn't like me or the way we live. And if I resist, and am killed, I won't be there to help you when its your turn.

Bea | 3:34 p.m. April 14, 2008

Everyone is forgetting one thing.

Polygamy is against state and federal law.

When they broke the law they opened themselves up to the authorities. It was inevitable that they would be held to account in some way. The FLDS have brought ALL of this on themselves.
Merril Jessop is a cruel and ambitious man who cloaks himself in a fake "holiness" and refuses to be humbled.

Texas | 3:39 p.m. April 14, 2008

This is Texas telling the FLDS to get out. I'm sure they'll listen after this. FLDS, and other promoters of polygamy and forced underage marriages, can go live in other states, particularly Utah.

I'd rather they stay out of mine. I applaud the governor. You elect yours. I elect mine.

Hermann | 3:42 p.m. April 14, 2008

So barely 15 years after the murderous attack on Waco, where dozens died in a self-righteous attack by government agents, the government was again at it. Without search warrant or prior public hearings, the Children Welfare Department scooped down and dragged innocent children away from their mothers.
This outrageous attach should be the incentive for a long overdue review of this governmental agency, that for so long has been allowed to trample on the God-given natural rights of every American, guaranteed by the Constitution.
Let's take back our country from the Nanny State, before it destroys us.

Richard H T | 3:40 p.m. April 14, 2008

I think it is far past time on cleaning out the polygamy cults. Too bad there have to be so many kids born to these perverts. These men are not normal men in any respect.

Margaret | 3:43 p.m. April 14, 2008

Read the book by Merrill Jessop's ex-wife. Good grief people. Merrill Jessop should be locked up, along with the other men.

Due Process? | 3:44 p.m. April 14, 2008

Some Quick Observations:

* This raid was precipitated by an alleged call from a girl that authorities can't produce or even prove exists.

* There's no way of knowing who made the call--if a call was indeed ever made.

* The alleged call allegedly named a man as the criminal, but women and children were rounded up and taken away while the men remain free and uncharged.

* Mothers with ID and birth certificate in hand are being denied access to their children.

* Hundreds of women and children are being detained without charges (if only they were Muslims, we could accuse them of terrorism and send them to Guantanamo).

* Authorities have taken all cell phones from those women and children being held. This in a country where even convicted murderers get one call.

* These and many other obtuse miscarriages of the law have been widely publicized by a media that, rather than asking questions, has merely consumed and regurgitated the news.

* Millions of Americans have followed this story without a thought to the fact that those involved are being denied their legal rights as American citizens.

Whatever happend to us, America? Seriously?

Big Brother | 3:49 p.m. April 14, 2008

This is target p[ractice. Wait until you are part of the next "undesirable" group that the government wants to "explore". It won't be long because it seems eveyone has got some politcally incorrect something that is unappealing to someone else, and anyone can call anonymously about you and report SOMETHING-- everything from dog control, to child abuse, to tax fraud. Have fun people, the roller coaster is just getting started.

And BTW I pary for these innocent children!

May | 3:50 p.m. April 14, 2008

Just because they did not get married does not mean that they are not breaking the laws against polygamy. They chose to do all of this in a state with common law marriage.

Three elements must be present to form a common law marriage in Texas.
First, you must have "agreed to be married."
Second, you must have "held yourselves out" as husband and wife. You must have represented to others that you were married to each other. As an example of this, you may have introduced you partner socially as "my husband," or you may have filed a joint income tax return.
Third, you must have lived together in this state as husband and wife.

whynot | 3:54 p.m. April 14, 2008

If sodomites and lesbians can have their practices protected why not CONSENTING(18 and older) polygamists?

Sound Familiar | 3:55 p.m. April 14, 2008

Whether you agree with their religon or practices or not; the bottom line- this all starts with a phone call from a girl that STILL HAS NOT BEEN IDENTIFIED.

Just like the WMD in Iraq... we went in on a supposition because we 'knew they were there' and did we find any...and was America judged for it.

I believe America will be judged yet again. Sure they've found 'other crimes' but we've violated these peoples Right to Privacy on an accusation that can't be substantiated.

I suspect they lived apart because they knew their way of life was not mainstream; and frankly I'm glad. I can think of quite a few religious beliefs and practices I'd love to see disappear!

Sue | 3:58 p.m. April 14, 2008

It's been known for years, if not decades, that the FLDS sexually exploits children in the name of their so-called "religion".

I would think that Law Enforcement would have their collective act together on this, and when they've completed their interviews of the women & children we'll get further details.

IN IRAQ | 4:05 p.m. April 14, 2008

Last I checked it was a federal offense to practice polygamy. We had the military sent out to Utah after us, so why have these idiots gotten a free ride up until now? I say, they're lucky it wasn't Waco II. Get counseling and join America, guys.

Matt | 3:59 p.m. April 14, 2008

Wow. They refused to address allegations of sexual or physical abuse, yet they have no problems accusing the government of abuse of power. I don't know if that's an example of irony or idiocy.

Matthew | 4:05 p.m. April 14, 2008

As soon as the government starts creating Death Camps, then we can start using the term Nazi. Until then, get a grip.

Sheryl | 4:11 p.m. April 14, 2008

It seems reading comprehension is a problem here. Yes, the initial raid was made because of anonymous complaints - but the government has the responsibility to protect children and this girl seemed legitimately traumatized. But, keep in mind that the authorities also had inside informants who could substantiate the claims.

But the most important fact here is this: once the Texas Rangers were inside the ranch, they discovered widespread abuse and many underage girls who were pregnant. At that time, they went back to the judge and asked that the warrant be expanded and the judge agreed that the facts warranted a total search of the property. Once the Rangers determined the extent of the abuse, they saw no other recourse than to remove all the children.

These were NOT "jackbooted thugs" who went in with guns blazing in the middle of the night!

The parents are getting their day in court and CPS is working hard to lessen the trauma to these children. They have provided counselors and lawyers.

The reason cellphones were confiscated is so the parents at the ranch can't "coach" their children on what to tell the authorities - again this is for the children's protection.

Rev. Craig X Rubin | 4:06 p.m. April 14, 2008

My church was raided too. There is no freedom of religion in America. This raid is crazy.

I am not a polygamist...my wife would kill me...but what happened to due process?

They can't find the person who made the complaint. The man who the complaint was made about is from another state and has never been to TX.

These people cost taxpayers nothing...now, they cost $60,000 per day. Where is the freedom and justice?

Mike | 4:08 p.m. April 14, 2008

Sounds like classic FLDS behavior was going on at that ranch, putting their own religion ahead of the secular law. Sorry, but the rights of adults to practice their religion as they see fit are superseded by the rights of children to grow up without being abused.

When you have teens becoming pregnant, children are being abused. That's a fact. Can anyone here say in good conscience that you don't believe the FLDS accepts polygamy and sex with girls under 18? You know they do. They are the reason much of America considers LDS a lawless and non-Christian cult, and you contribute to this perception when you defend them in any way.

Russ from MI | 4:08 p.m. April 14, 2008

I accidentally posted twice early but I'd like to add I totally disagree with chilren or anyone for that matter being forced into marriage or raped or any violations of someones personal freedoms. I just have not heard any proof of that anywhere yet and seems to me the government acted without due cause. I mean what if your 16 year old gets mad at you and decide to throw out some accusation without any proof other than that should the government be allowed to come in and ripp your home and life apart.I think this is a severe abuse of power. I think its scares me anytime our government starts saying your guilty without any evidence other than a phone call.These cases like this set a terrible precident. I also want to know whats in the water down there in lonestar state 1st Waco now this.

Jeb | 4:15 p.m. April 14, 2008

Seems to be a lot of people on this site support polygamy - Thank You for your Love! As a 50 year old man, I can now breathe a sigh of relief. So can my two 14- year-old wives who love me. They chose to be with me when we fell in love 5 years ago. I'm happy to say that we're expecting. Even better, their pediatrician told me that we're expecting boys! Amen and thanks for the supportive words. I'll read them these letters and maybe some day, we'll teach them to read the letters on their own. God bless!

IN IRAQ | 4:14 p.m. April 14, 2008

What happens is that we no longer see each other as fellow human beings. We see each other as a label or category. i.e. black, white, asian, Mormon, Evangelical, racist, loser, illegal immigrant, terrorist, etc, etc. It makes it easy to disregard each other that way. When a human becomes an object, we don't feel as guilty letting them get abused.

An Actual Texan | 4:15 p.m. April 14, 2008

before we all start shedding crocodile tears, lets review a few facts that this article fails to mention. Like the nearly 200 women who left of their own accord as soon as the opportunity presented itself. Like the 14 & 15 year old girls forced to wed against their will AND AGAINST THE LAWS OF EVERY STATE IN THE UNION. Like the prisoners of this sect who were never allowed outside the compound and were lied to about life outside. This article sounds all warm and fuzzy, no doubt a condition of entry into the compound

RE: Due Process? | 4:22 p.m. April 14, 2008

You read a news story and think you clearly understand the situation. You have no idea what is happening, and I wouldn't put it past the FLDS to make up a bunch of nonsense. Everything is hearsay at this point, and you are eating it up.

Due process is required BY LAW. I trust my authorities are doing the right thing, and I refuse to accept that a news story has every single little detail about the REAL situation.

Like I said, I elect my officials. You elect yours. I'm happy with the decision. Child abusers are not welcome in Texas.

Pete | 4:18 p.m. April 14, 2008

The problem with a lot of these compounds is that they abuse the children. How do they have so many more daughters than sons? What happens to the sons? Many girls get raped. Kids dont get their own free will. Not saying that this happens everywhere, but it does happen at a lot of these places.

The problem with this case is that an anonymous unproven tip ended up with 400+ children being unlawfully taken away from their parents. Anyone can make an anonymous tip without any proof out of hate or jealousy.

If anyone ever took my kids away from me for no good reason, I would definately take matters into my own hands.

I would do everything it took to get my kids back legally for 6 months to 1 year. After that period of time, if I don't have my kids back, I will do whatever it takes to get them back. By "whatever" I mean "Anything goes including revenge".

Utah | 4:21 p.m. April 14, 2008

Hey Texas-
"FLDS and other promoters of underage marrage, can go live in other states, particularly Utah"

Utah is the one PROSECUTING the REAL perpatrators like Warren Jeffs! DUH!

Actual Texan | 4:31 p.m. April 14, 2008

whynot -
OK, 18 & over. What about the 14 & 15 year olds forced into marriages? Oh, thats right, the article didn't mention them. Like it didn't bother to mention the 200 women who immediately left of their own accord, like it didn't mention the sect founder who is in jail for child molesting. Sorta makes you wonder what else the article just failed to mention

Lee | 4:28 p.m. April 14, 2008

So what's next on the agenda? Will the Texas authorities be raiding inner city slums and rounding up unwed teenage mothers who are collecting welfare and living a dangerous gangster lifestyle? It seems to me that the social environment that exists there is pretty damaging?

How about going to migrant labor camps and rounding up any children who are there? Their parents are most likely illegal aliens and prefer working to education. Many of these children get caught up in gangs and graffiti. I don't think that would past muster with the baptists either.

Maybe the authorities in Minnesota could round up the children of Muslim immigrants who are being taught anti-American propaganda by their Imams. We don't want them to carry on the the belligerent actions of their parents: Muslim cab drivers who fail to pick up fairs with alcohol, or Target workers who refuse to allow people to purchase pork chops or bacon.

Would they raid a scout encampment and round up all of the scouts if an anonymous caller alleged that he was a scout being abused by one of the leaders? These actions are just plain wrong.

Liberty is life | 4:38 p.m. April 14, 2008

Plural marriage should be legal for both men and women. The government should get out of our bedrooms and our private lives so it can concern itself with real problems like... well... government tyranny. But I guess that's really up to citizens to solve. Too bad voters shunned Ron Paul -- the only forward-thinking Republican seeking the presidential nomination.

Alex | 4:33 p.m. April 14, 2008

Let me explain something to those of you who think that this is simply resolved by prosecuting this group for violation of antipolygamy laws.

Look, you couldn't prosecute these people for polygamy, even if you tried. That is because only one wife would ever be registered as a wife with the state. In the eyes of the law, the other wives could only be considered live-in affairs at the worst, and as we all know, the law is quite comfortable with affairs and divorce, but not with plural marriage.

In the end, if anyone goes after them for unlawful cohabitation head on, would not the antipolygamy laws from the 1800s most likely be struck down by the Supreme Court on the grounds of equal protection under the law? After all, if you go after the polygamists, you have to go after everyone that is cohabiting outside of marriage.

You see the problem? People who don't want polygamy to be legalized have a vested interest that an unlawful cohabitation charge against a polygamist group never sees the light of a courtroom.

mcam | 4:37 p.m. April 14, 2008

As a mother and grandmother I feel deeply for the children envolved. I'm sure they are afraid and feel very lost but they must be protected. I have been listening to the interviews of women who left the FLDS and if what they say is true all of these children were at risk. I'm sure the mothers love their children, but most of them were raised to believe that what they are doing is right, so they are not capable of making decisions about the welfare of these underage girls. To question whether her underage daughter should "marry" a much older man and become his second or third wife would mean she would have to question her whole life and everything she has been taught by her mother who was some older mans second or third wife. The main goal has to be to protect these children from men who are nothing more than pedophiles. If the mothers are not emotionally equiped to do it, the government must.

actual texan | 4:38 p.m. April 14, 2008

OOh, wow, craig rubins church was raided and he can't figure out why. Maybe it's because you consider Marijuana a sacrament. Religion or not, pot is still illegal in Texas. Rev Rubin, do I need to use smaller words or CAN YOU HERE ME NOW?

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