Deseret News | First look inside YFZ Ranch

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First look inside YFZ Ranch

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Dave in DC | 6:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

It's all about power and money. There is a small core of men who run the cult - that is what it is - a cult because behind the curtain, there is a small group controlling the mass of souls. Who gets to decided who is going to marry who? How about, when or if they want to marry? The people outside of the Core dont have choices. They live in the comfort provided to them by others without any worries. Their dues is a loss of rights that the rest of civilized free citizens would not put up with loosing. Children should not be exposed to that environment.

The authorities should do everything possible to break this cult up. They can start with pulling their tax exempt status - federal and state.

Fed Up American | 6:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

My father fought in WWII to protect our rights. I have always been taught that we live in the best country in the world. Now as a 44 year old father of two I can say I am truly concerned with the blatant disregard of our constitution. Our system is failing us daily in the name of fear. Everyone is convinced that we must be protected from the evil when everything I see points to evil government control WAKE UP PEOPLE! Every day another right is taken away. We as a nation are more worried about Britney Spears Rehab than our freedoms. This is just another example of "abuse of power". Innocent until proven guilty, only if you can afford $1500.00 for a lawyer.. other wise you sit in the cell until your court dateï¿½ Iï¿½m tired and disgusted with what our wonderful nation has become. I most go back to work now, I have to pay my taxes on the money I (like you) work for....

Invisible, Apparently | 6:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

I am a teacher, and I am also a very devoted mother. I homeschooled my child because the public schools would not meet his advanced needs. I was a single parent at the time and still am. My husband had left me. I am chaste. I complained about a day care I temporarily had my son in so I could raise capital for a work at home business. They had left multiple bruises on him. They knew a person in CPS and had me threatened. That traumatized me and my child. So, I had a bad experience with CPS and don't automatically assume they are doing the right thing.

However, CPS is doing the right thing in this case. The parents are not cooperating at a normal level. It is not normal for parents not to claim their individual children and state their parentage. What American parent would not produce a birth certificate and any other proof of parenting to get their children back? What parent wouldn't try to bargain, offer to live independently, etc. to get their child back? These people are playing the victims, but they are making their kids the victims. Get real, folks.

Comments continue below

Samantha | 6:52 a.m. April 14, 2008

Anything I have every seen regarding these people and their practices are very abusive to the children. You girls, not women, are forced to marry old men. Their mothers stand by and let it happen. I saw a television documentary where if the young boys get to a point where they are threatening the old guys positions, they are to pack a bag, taken to the out skirts of town and told to leave. No money and no place to go they ended up on the streets in prostitution. So I think the government did a very humane thing going in there and removing these children, giving them the opportunity to come forward if they are being abused and have to opportunity to escape that awful situation. It isn't like they went in there without a complaint being made.

Anonymous | 6:57 a.m. April 14, 2008

Amazing how my comments never get posted on this site. I am respectful, well-spoken and coherent. But, I do not support the FLDS crimes. Is there a proscribed limit to the proportion of negative versus positive comments allowed in regards to FLDS?

I would like to say, again, that the FLDS members are breaking the law in many ways and also refusing to cooperate with authorities even in identifying their own children.

My tax dollars are paying to feed and house them, just as they were when they were at the compound. I am a single mom struggling to pay my bills. Should I feel sorry for them for having to sleep on cots for a couple of weeks? Did they expect the Hilton Hotel? Who even knew there were that many children unknown to the state in there?

I am not a proponent of heavy state control, but children deserve basic protection of their rights to be safe and to be taught truthfully. Parents are obligated to obey the laws of the land or change it through political action. These people have taken no responsibility for these things and want us to feel sorry for them. Grow up.

The Dean | 6:58 a.m. April 14, 2008

Unbeknownst to many people the state(s)have the legal right to protect all children till they are 16 years old. This is written in state(s) law.

George | 6:58 a.m. April 14, 2008

That was the most boring "exclusive" story I've ever read. "Collectively, their hearts are broken but their spirits undaunted." Uh. Terrible. I love all the constitutional scholars out there protecting these sexual abusers. Dopes.

Erik | 7:06 a.m. April 14, 2008

Wow...a lot of people here are defending these people. The main issue here ISN'T polygamy, it is child abuse. Someone made an outrageous argument that the ex-members of this church are naturally going to trash this group because they had to hate the group to get out of it. That makes as much sense as saying that naturally an ex-drug dealer who rails against his former profession is only doing so because he had to hate it in order to get out of it. Nobody is mentioning the bed discovered in the sanctuary of this place where young girls were having sex with older men. As to the constitutional argument, there was probable cause. This place has been under the government microscope for years, and they held off this long before doing anything. This shows an extreme amount of restraint on the government's part.

uhhuh | 7:11 a.m. April 14, 2008

They deserved it. it was the right thing. There is no where in the bible or the law that condones sexual acts with underage kids. disgusting perverts.

mary, small town Pa. | 7:14 a.m. April 14, 2008

My heart breaks for these Mothers and children. Where is that abused 16 yr. old? The evident abuse is the with the Texan bureaucrats who, like predators , compromised the innocence of bonds between a mother and her child. Who are we to judge a lifestyle we may/may not agree with or lack understanding of? How dare they! And where is the outrage??

sandy | 7:10 a.m. April 14, 2008

THEY DID THE RIGHT THING in removing these women and children. It is NOT the same as removing one man from a woman and children. How could they protect all those women and children from the male rapist molesters in that compound when it is so large? No one was sure what the heck they were doing to children and women in that place. To make the mistake on the side of caution was the right thing to do. If they had not taken them, and something happened to them (some other men came for them and spirited them away, beat them, etc. Oh how you would all be in a rage over that!!!!
I do not care for the faulty system we have in public services, but at least these kids could have a chance to experience freedom, free will, choices, opportunities, and AVOID RAPE by some old pedophile.

Stephan | 7:10 a.m. April 14, 2008

I don't believe this would have happened if journalists would have been permitted to photograph what was taking place. Sunlight is the world's greatest disinfectant.

Jer | 7:11 a.m. April 14, 2008

A sad day in America, in which our society has dilapidated to such an extreme that the government is illegally seizing hundreds of children from their rightful families.

Imagine if the local police suddenly barged into your home and hauled off your kids to an undisclosed location.

No matter what religion you practice, even if it none at all, keep your thoughts and prayers with the welfare of the children, not with the government's fascist binge.

Slim | 7:19 a.m. April 14, 2008

Remember folks, the government owns you. We have given them the power. They, at any time can take away anything you think you own, including yourself and your family. The burden and cost is then on you to get any of it back. A sad reality, and this is one more example. Let's get these power hungry fools out of office and close down these over-powered agencies. Vote correctly and make your voice and monetary support work from your locality on up.

Julia | 7:28 a.m. April 14, 2008

I feel for the innocent among this community, but if they are not going to cooperate with authorities and turn in the rapists among their men, there is little that can be done to protect those who will be raped.

If they truly loved their little ones, they would speak up and out against the rapists and not protect them.

Mother's, grandmothers, aunts who allow their daughters to be raped and then do nothing when justice comes knocking are accomplices to crime.

save the kids from rape | 7:24 a.m. April 14, 2008

I am glad the women LOVE their children. But how is it love to give your BABIES to old rapists and tell them this is God's will? Mental abuse? THAT is mental abuse. To LIE and tell a child God says you must be sold off and raped as a child by an old man , that is the worst mental abuse there is. Are they handling it just right? Probably not. Bet they could use some help, so go help. An evil world for sure. But God is good. Brain washing, sexual abuse, these are evil things. "Better a millstone was tied around their necks then to harm the least of these (children)". Who will say rape is not harm to

Freakedout | 7:33 a.m. April 14, 2008

Let's mark this day as a symbolic date of Complete Decline of the United State of Arrests.

David | 7:32 a.m. April 14, 2008

If we regard a POLYGAMIST to be a criminal notice who we would also be calling a criminal: Abraham, Jacob, Elkanah (father of Samuel the prophet), King David (a man after Godï¿½s own heart) to name a few. You cannot find any word of condemnation in the bible for their POLYGAMIST life style. In fact Hebrews Chapter 11 stated that all these men received a righteous report. They would be in prison in America.

Whatï¿½s the point of placing our hands on the Bible in public swearing in ceremonies and in court when most people including Christians hate the words written in it? Notice this:

Exodus 21:10-11
10 If he marries another woman, he must not deprive the first one of her food, clothing, and marital rightsï¿½.

Read also Deuteronomy 21:15-16

No condemnation from the bible. In fact our Savior said that Abraham and Jacob would be in the Kingdom Matthew 8:11.

The real crime of the polygamist is the same crime the Jews committed in Germany: Be Different.

If the mothers and girls were ï¿½normalï¿½ wearing short, skin tight clothes and exposing their chest, attracting one or more boy friends, (having no husband), on welfare they would be FREE.

Pam | 7:27 a.m. April 14, 2008

There was proof that many of the girls taken away from the ranch were under aged and pregnant. Polygamy is against the law even if your faith believes in it. It's the same as Sharia law being criminal here and for good reason. These woman are not given an education, made to marry men old enough to be their grandfathers and having children. It's not exactly a healthy situation when a small number of men control such a large population and then make the boys leave so they aren't competition. That's not religion, that's a cult.

Yes there are pedophiles in other religions,and in schools, homes, etc..., but other religions don't believe in it because those responsible are breaking their own religions rules and the laws of this country.

YFZ=Sexual abuse | 7:37 a.m. April 14, 2008

Are you all actually defending this group? Are people so easily swayed? Throw a couple of heart-wrenching sob stories up there and suddenly it is the state abusing its police power?

Never mind the fact that among the children taken into custody were numerous teenage mothers. Never mind the multiple calls from girls inside the community to family violence centers.

Its just all a giant mistake because a mother wants to be with her children, right? Whatever. In this country we allow freedom of religion, bu the state has an overarching interest- to protect those who cannot protect themselves. Every single one of those "happy little girls" wouldn't be so happy when they were forced into marriage at the age of 14 or 15. Imagine that happening to your kids, and ask yourself if you'd be so sympathetic to a mother who knowingly lived in a place where that happens to everyone.

San Angelo Native | 7:32 a.m. April 14, 2008

The author wants to make this intervention about polygamy, but it is about abuse and neglect of children. And so the article forgot to mention the pregnant 14-year-olds; the 16-year-old with 4 kids and exclusion of most teenage boys. Throw in the fact that most of the children are not vaccinated or educated (many of the mothers can barely read and write - one could not write her own last name).

There are many polygamous and polyamorous groups throughout the country - they, for the most part, are left alone by the authorities. But when there are allegations of sexual assault of a minor, then the authorities must step in.

HawksOverhead | 7:37 a.m. April 14, 2008

This is a cult, people--not a religion. Cults by their very nature separate themselves from the rest of society; teach that the outside world is evil or mislead in some way; teach that their way (and only their way) leads to salvation; usually have some guy in charge who claims a unique connection to God and God's truth; and cults usually require some kind of strange or unsavory practices among their faithful. The problem with this particular cult is the self-perpetuating quality to it, since breeding seems to be its only activity in the world. Texas absolutely did the right thing when it raided this ranch. Both the mothers and the children probably need extensive therapy, and the men should all be put in jail for a long time.

Jack | 7:52 a.m. April 14, 2008

This is an outrage! The type of actions one would expect in a police state.

Gary Schroeder | 7:49 a.m. April 14, 2008

This post is not about Warren Steed Jeffs; he is serving his sentence at the Utah State Prison. No, this post is about freedom of religion, Texas and polygamy. This post is not about the LDS; they excommunicates members who engage in the practice of polygamy. Sheriff Doran, Texas Rangers and CPS conducted weeklong raids on a church in Eldorado, Texas. The hold 416 Texan kids and 139 Texans adult women. We need to ask why our US Constitutional Right of freedom of religion were violated?

Dave | 7:55 a.m. April 14, 2008

Wow, a few quick comments people. The law will have a heck of a time prosecuting any of the people for Polygamy as they typically LEGALLY marry only the first wife, other wives are married only in the church's eyes, so there isn't a law being broken there. Those of you saying they hope that this group sues the state and/or police for millions, use your heads people, the police and state get their money from the citizens, not out of their own pockets. And finally, I have a hard time believing that all of this occurred as a result of a single anonymous phone call. The sheriffï¿½s office said that they had an inside informant for at least 4 years so I'm guessing that more will come out on what prompted the raid. With that said, I feel for the children and hope they will heal from what must be an emotional hell right now.

A free country? | 8:01 a.m. April 14, 2008

This my friends.... is the US government at its worst. Whenever you hear a politician say how we must protect our freedoms etc..., bring up this example of how kids are separated from their mothers, and the mothers are unable to see their kids because they cannot prove who their kids are. My how our government is beginning to resemble certain infamous governments of the past. Can anyone honestly say that these kids are going to be better off in state foster care than with their mothers?

Marcel | 8:02 a.m. April 14, 2008

These people believe in polygamy, a practice condemned by most Americans, and unlawful. No doubt there are some bad apples in the YFZ barrel. So what do the authorities of Texas do about it? They haul in the entire barrel!!! Typical bureaucratic overkill.

Laura | 8:12 a.m. April 14, 2008

I am literally sick to my stomach with disgust at those of you who think these children were wrongfully taken. These are 14, 15 and 16-year old girls that are pregnant by older men. This is not an allegation, it's a fact.
As for the abuse, anyone who thinks you aren't better safe than sorry hasn't faced abuse themselves. Shame on all of you.

Pete | 8:14 a.m. April 14, 2008

Some crimes are so egregious that innocence is an inadequate defense.

Child abuse is one such crime. It seems that the claim of child abuse, with no evidence to support the claim, is enough to take this drastic action.

Luckily, that can't possibly happen to you or I because "those people" area little different; a little weird. I suppose that makes it OK.

its_Chet | 8:24 a.m. April 14, 2008

Given that there was an allegation that a 16 year old girl was being abused, and that the state allegedly felt a need to prevent any alleged further abuse, and that polygamy is illegal in this country regardless of whether the involved individuals are consenting, there are some very significant and egregious violations of human and civil rights here.
Allegedly, a 16 year old girl was being abused. Is that the justification for ripping crying, screaming children from their mothers? Did the alleged victim say her mother was abusing her? Even if she had, would it be grounds for mass kidnapping of 400 children? One allegation does not justify the invasion of all these homes, and the abduction of innocent children from the mothers, and their fathers too. Legality of polygamy aside, is it fair to kidnap a fatherï¿½s children just because of one allegation? This could have been handled much better. Common sense says that not every one of the fathers were monsters, and certainly not all of the mothers, if any.
This is the depraved act of a fascist state run amok. Disagree with their religion if you like, but that is no basis for mass kidnapping.

dsanunnaki | 8:35 a.m. April 14, 2008

I am outraged at the government stealing children away from their parents. It happens in my county too -- one may be CHARGED with a petty crime and the county runs in and grabs the children. You see, the more children the county has control of the more grant $$ it receives.

Think about it from the child's point of view. Can you imagine the horror and the guilt. They must surely believe that they were taken from their parents because they (the children) did something wrong . . . .

its_Chet | 8:35 a.m. April 14, 2008

Letï¿½s put aside for a moment our sentiments regarding polygamy, and its illegality in this country.

It is illogical to assume that every father of these children was a monster. Itï¿½s even more illogical to assume that all the mothers were. This act of mass kidnapping was not warranted, justified, or conscionable.

Some have speculated here that the allegation that set off all of this could have been a hoax. Maybe a lie from a disgruntled former member of the group. Maybe even a false allegation cooked up by some facet of the government in order to persecute a religion they found unfashionable. Wouldnï¿½t be the first time weï¿½ve seen that happen in America. Times like this make me ashamed of this country.

The children need to be reunited with at least their mothers, somewhere, somehow. The fathers need to be investigated and cleared if possible, as soon as possible, so the real abuse of these children (having their families ripped to pieces) can be stopped and hopefully repaired as soon as possible.

If the government feels such an urge to address polygamy, let them do it in an orderly and as low impact as possible manner.

Anonymous | 9:02 a.m. April 14, 2008

I too am outraged that this kind of injustice is happening in American...this sounds too much like Waco and it is very scary. I will pray for these people even though I am not of their faith. Patti

Jimmie | 9:19 a.m. April 14, 2008

If these people had resisted arrest in anyway how many of these children would have gotten Permanent protection (dead) Isn't it comforting to know that if I took a dis-liking to YOU I could call the STATE and tell them that I heard from some guy that his cousin said that YOU were not taking proper care of your wife and Children...say goodbye...these kids are NOT receiving good care...the STATE is just not capable. They have been harmed by the STATE (thankfully not burned) and the longer they are in custody the more harm done.

Barbara | 9:17 a.m. April 14, 2008

As I read the story interviews with the mothers/grandmothers, it became almost impossible to breathe - the depth of their pain feeling like tons of weight. I have not known a government agency yet that operates in perfection! This action puts everyone in this country at grave risk. Again. I pray for the children and their mothers. I pray for our country and a return to sanity. How dare we even attempt to police a world and expound democracy when we can't even practice it within our own borders.

Anonymous | 9:26 a.m. April 14, 2008

a DNA TEST would clearly show Who is the Mother of each Child
If this Woman Demands a DNA Test of herself and her children then this could aid in the return of her children to her.
However the mothers may not know of this technology and its wait in the court system.

Anonymous | 9:50 a.m. April 14, 2008

Teaching children such a warped view of the world is child abuse in itself. Could any one of these children ever be expected to grow up to be a biologist, doctor, astronomer, or anything regardind a rational view of the world. If adults want to live in a make believe world of pioneer dresses and sexual tyranny thats their right. The fact that they are condeming there children to such a lifestyle is abuse, whether they love them or not.

Sarah | 9:51 a.m. April 14, 2008

Oh, their living conditions in San Angelo aren't good enough for these welfare cheats? Medical examinations are horrifying for girls who have sex and babies at 12, 13, and 14 years old?

Put these mothers in jail. Along with the men. Uncover the welfare fraud, sell their compound, and pay us taxpayers back.

AloysiusMiller | 9:53 a.m. April 14, 2008

I don't have any solutions but I do think that society has a duty and obligation to protect children (that is a person < 18) from sexual and physical abuse.

I would hope that every child born into these complicated circumstances would have the choice to leave and reject this way of life and be protected from the consequences.

A few years ago Lawrence vs. Texas established the rights of adults to privacy in their sexual behavior. This was widely seen as a step toward legalized polygamy. Many were dismissive but here we are.

I say to the polygamists that if they want to protect some part of their way of life they best do it by protecting their children from abuse, allowing their children to freely choose to leave, and that they quit their depredations on the welfare system of the US.

As long as they think otherwise then the Texas type tragedies will continue but it will be their own fault.

Al | 9:52 a.m. April 14, 2008

Freedom in America is dead. Some news reporter mentions something about somebody that is different than the norm and Americans stand by and justify why they should not have the same "rights" as they do.

Freedom is ensured by the people and the constitution is merely a document that limited the power of the federal government. Without a society that puts teeth in the constitution, it's just a piece of paper. As it has become.

So most of America sits back and hears words like: Fringe religion, polygamy, sexual abuse, etc etc. Add in a supposed phone call from somebody supposedly in the compound (who for some reason they can't find or have any idea who it is) and the gov't can come in and take everyone out of the compound? They can take children away from their parents with no proof whatsoever?

Sleep tight tonight, for tomorrow the same thing can happen to you. Welcome to the new America.

Leanne | 9:54 a.m. April 14, 2008

Here's a question, why doesn't the FDLS church allow the women to have multiple husbands? They don't because polygamy is about male domination and control. Also keep in mind the allegations of child abuse are not new, the state has been hearing these stories for years. This was just the straw that broke the camels back.

ZZ | 10:01 a.m. April 14, 2008

These are the same "law-abiding" people who have children with all of their "wives" and then use them to make welfare claims for the "single" mothers, and yet operate in such a way that they individuals have no income (it's all within the church), so that they don't pay taxes. Wake up people. They've had it coming for some time. Their "prophet" is in jail for abusing children right now. You can't possibly think Warren Jeffs removal would change their culture?

metaljaybird | 10:13 a.m. April 14, 2008

Wow, no proof to substantiate the abuse. Yet, they simply go in and kidnap the children.

I am a born again Christian that does not agree with the beliefs of the LDS or FLDS, but I support their right to raise their children as they please (without abusing them, of course). The government, as usual, has grossly overstepped its boundaries and totally ignored these citizens constitutional rights.

I hope the state of Texas gets sued BIG TIME.

fwaviator63 | 10:30 a.m. April 14, 2008

I can understand the concern from LDS members, especially in Utah. But the fact remains that it is illegal in Texas, as in most if not all other states, to take a 16 year old and, without her consent or approval, put her with older men for the purpose of "marriage". That is statuatory rape under the law. The YFZ people should be the first to want to comply. They are taking on the definition of a cult. If it looks like what it probably is in many cases, it needs to come to an end or at least changed to where it is legal. Living apart is not the issue, holding people captive against their wishes and having sex with underage children is.

rhoden | 10:35 a.m. April 14, 2008

Wake up folks. These children are held under running water as infants to stop them from crying. The child rearing theory of control thru brain washing is used.
No Baptist or Catholic or Muslim or whatever is allowed freedom to treat children or any citizen abusively. These 'mothers' have been endoctrinated and brain washed by men who are power mongers. Who knows what the women and children have been programmed to say. Love and well cared for could mean anything in the language of this church.
Please, folks, may no mistake. Merrell Jessop and others are scripting these women. These are no innocent pioneer women....they are pawns of dirty old/young men.

DigitalBob | 10:37 a.m. April 14, 2008

My guess is there never was 16 year old making this call. Either it was done by law enforcement wanting an excuse to raid or it never happened, your pick. I think this entire episode is a travesty of justice. Is this lifestyle any more harmful than one of drugs, promiscuity, alcoholism, or any other of a number of modern day social ills that the youngof this sect is immune from?

The Dean | 10:37 a.m. April 14, 2008

No one is talking about the father's of these children not paying or paying child support towards these children if they are collecting welfare benefits from the state of Texas. If the mother's are recieving welfare benefits (cash, food stamps and medical )the state has a right to step in to protect the taxpayers interests. I see welfare fraud and non-payment of child support. These mother's may be collecting welfare from more than one state which is illegal. This may come down to checking DNA of all the father's on the ranch to fine out who the father are to which children.

deseretnews.com moderator | 10:39 a.m. April 14, 2008

One of our servers is down, which has slowed access to the site. In order to improve access to our Web site we will not be posting comments for the next couple of hours.

Amie | 10:45 a.m. April 14, 2008

America is the land of the free. I find this controlling, brainwashing pratice of pologomy sick. Why are they so clueless? In the name of God, they are being controlled and not experiencing love between 1 man and 1 women. The sickest part of it all is that at age 14, 15, 16 they are marrying and having sex with 40,50 year old men. This is disgusting. It is bad enough if the girls were being mated with boys their own age. It is rape- they are under 17- rape, rape, rape.

Califas | 10:53 a.m. April 14, 2008

How can anyone excuse the horrendous and reprehensible behavior of these FLDS men? And what about the adult women who have been complicit--FOR YEARS--in enabling the repetetive rape and forced "spiritual marriages" of their underage daughters to perverted old men? HUH? How innocent do these mothers think their daughters will be after a trip to the temple mattress? How is it that a felonious sub-culture is allowed to flourish in this country, today? The FLDS is an abomination and should be held accountable (like any other church in the USA) for their illegal behaviors. If these little girls were anywhere else, or belonged to any other religion--they would have been removed from their abusive environment LONG AGO!!! Just because these little girls know no other home, does not mean that they should be returned to the place of their abuse. How crazy is that? WHERE ARE THE BOYS AND YOUNG MEN OF THIS COMMUNITY? We see NO EVIDENCE OF THEM! That's because boys and young men are systematically exiled from the only homes they know when they begin to pose a threat to the perverted older men of the community. The older pervs don't want competition!

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