Deseret News | First look inside YFZ Ranch

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First look inside YFZ Ranch

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nate | 4:14 a.m. April 14, 2008

In response to Hal, 12:32 pm April 13 (first page, last comment) -

The Amish and Mennonite seclude themselves, but do not cut off the outside world. Outsiders may enter, provided they follow some simple rules (no picture-taking), and most Amish and Mennonite villages trade with the outside world. They are not strictly self-sufficient. Obviously it's not illegal to cut out the world entirely, but cutting out the world is not usually done to protect children from the world. IT is done to hide questionable acts from the authorities. Never, ever, in the history of any sect, has any sect found it necessary to cut off the world entirely and not had something illegal, immoral, and often sexual going on behind closed doors, not even when the first Christians were praying in the catacombs.

m | 4:20 a.m. April 14, 2008

When people behave like animals and they break the laws of this country in such a heinous way then they should be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law. I noticed only 2 people were actually arrested, there were warrants for the search and after entering it was decided there was an imminent threat to the children at which time they were removed in a very legal way. The children were potential witnesses in a case who were in danger of being manipulated and hurt. If there was no crime the children will be returned. Now if a crime has been committed I hope everyone wishes that they be punished to the fullest extent of the law and that the sickos who commit crimes against children rot in the pits of hell.

Dennis | 4:39 a.m. April 14, 2008

OK, let's assume polygamy was being practiced there.
Why is this criminal, but having children out of wedlock is OK? How many children in America have been abandoned by their fathers or traumatized by divorce, yet the government can't seem to get a handle on these social problems.

Leave it to politicians to make a mountain out of a mole hill so they can portray themselves as heros. From what I've seen, most of them can't manage their own lives much less tell others what's best for them.

Comments continue below

noel | 4:37 a.m. April 14, 2008

boys who are over 18 are thrown out because they are a threat to older men. who are these older men who don't want to be threatened? and what is the threat? the battle for the women, especially the younger women and girls? does anybody see a problem here?

dNova | 4:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

If the children weren't being abused before, they certainly ARE being abused now.

Stephanie | 4:46 a.m. April 14, 2008

I dont know what is wrong with all of you?? There were SEVERAL PREGNANT teenagaers which prove there is child abuse going on inside this cult. I am appalled that anyone can sit here and say we should not have gone in and taken all the children. We need to protect them first and foremost above anyones religion. How dare anyone say getting a teenager pregnant is ok!! I am ashamed that no one on here has any morals!

Debbie | 4:58 a.m. April 14, 2008

This is one of the few things that the government has done that's right! These people aren't abusive? Not in their own eyes, of course. Their god wants them to marry off 13 year old girls to 50 year old men. They don't deny it. This isn't a case of people accusing them of doing such things. They freely acknowledge it and don't see it as abuse. They also throw out young men so that there will be enough women to go around. What kind of loving parents throw their children out?

Ann | 4:59 a.m. April 14, 2008

At puberty (could be as early as 9 if not earlier), these mothers willingly hand over their daughters to be "married" and sexually abused. duh.

Mother of 3 | 5:07 a.m. April 14, 2008

The media can spin a story any way it feels will get the best reaction and this has absolutely higlighted the natural feelings of mothers for their children without taking in to account that these same mothers are party to some very shocking abuse. As a mother I understand the distress such a forceful separation would cause. Let us keep in mind however that the women interviewed were unwilling to talk about underage marriages or any of the alleged abuses related to the siege in the first place. My heart is with the poor 16 year girl who already has FOUR children! It is a very traumatic time for all involved but better to save the children from such a future, not forgetting that their mothers were allowing the alleged abuse to continue. Those mothers would do better to find some help for themselves in order to better protect their children.

Valerie | 5:10 a.m. April 14, 2008

Sex without desire is painful for a woman; sex without desire is rape.

A judge is convinced that there *is probable cause* to believe that the women have been victims of rape while the young girls are at high risk of rape.

Current thinking is that rape isn't a wholesome thing. Current thinking is that child rape is particularly heinous. Current thinking is that the government has a duty to protect girls who are at high risk in their homes.

If you don't like the way Texas handled this, lobby to make child rape legal.

Let parents mentally torture their little girls, making them believe that they'll burn in hell if they don't have sex with a man they don't desire the moment they get their first periods.

Make child rape legal. Let 50 yo men take frightened, pubescent girls and rape them. Yes, child rape is mostly ugly, but out in the country with girls who are first properly conditioned to believe that this is the way to earn Heaven in the afterlife, child rape could be a beautiful thing.

Gag.

Stockholm Syndrome.

Justin | 5:07 a.m. April 14, 2008

The problem is the sexual abuse of children. Everything else that is being brought up is a smoke screen. The mothers agreed to talk if they were not asked questions about sexual abuse, therefore they have nothing of substance to add to the discussion.

There is no easy way to protect children when it is the parents who prepare the children to be raped. To allow it to continue would make us guilty of the crime as well, in the eyes of God.

wow | 5:20 a.m. April 14, 2008

it is stupid government telling their people how to live. They want to live the way they do, it's their business. Law enforcement officers should respond to 16 year old case only in her family, not rest of families!

Govt presumed all families are stereotypically guilty of one 16 year-old's rape, therefore all raids are justified in their own eyes. Not my eyes.

Ralph | 5:26 a.m. April 14, 2008

Why would you publish such a one-sided interview? What purpose does this serve? Would you publish an article about the government's claims when there was no willingness to address questions or "undesirable" topics? Clearly these folks were polygamist child abusers, they need no sympathy.

RM | 5:30 a.m. April 14, 2008

I personally think this is another case of the government out of control.I mean it makes no sense to remove anyone except girls ages 13-16 that was the issue.I mean it starting to come out now the guy accused has not even been in texas since 1979 and so they dropped the warrant and no arrest is Being made.I gather my kids up and we stand in a big circle and everybody takes their turn praying we do this everyday.I imagine someday the goverment will consider this brainwashing and conditioning.I hope people realize what they are advocating more intrusive government and more government control.Today its some kids from a sect in Texas tomorrow it will be your home your kids and you'll wish you stood on the side of freedom because by that point it'll be gone.

just a Lutheran | 5:35 a.m. April 14, 2008

i am praying for all involved.
too much pain to think about,
too much recovery to go through,
but these people must begin somewhere.
Jesus, heal the broken hearted and set free the captives, as your Father has sent you to do.
Amen

texyak | 5:38 a.m. April 14, 2008

I find it interesting that the Deseret News chose to paint the FLDS church in such a glowing light after years of writing negative articles about it. Opportunism at its finest. The people of Utah and the LDS church can't stand FLDS either. Thus, they moved to another state where they thought they could be less conspicuous. The facts of the case are that a child made an outcry of sexual abuse against a member of the compound and that the alleged sexual abuse is widespread throughout the compound. What the news doesn't tell you is the mothers were all given the opportunity to leave with their children when the kids were removed and some of them chose to remain with the men instead. Funny...none of the women interviewed express any concern about the sexual abuse allegations.

agenda | 5:40 a.m. April 14, 2008

"...So did I miss the story where they took the boys away from the catholic priests? Or the one where they took the Muslim kids away because they had more than one wife?..."

Nope, you didn't miss it; but you might have missed the fact that it isn't a part of their 'program'. Child rape is not organized nor is it condoned.

Todd | 5:49 a.m. April 14, 2008

Simply put, religions must abide by all the laws of the community they live in. They were not abiding the laws, hence the children were taken.

Mike | 5:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

While it may suit to justify the Law Enforcement communities actions in this case that 400 children, some so young as to be NURSING, were taken from their homes and separated from their mothers, who now allegedly are not allowed time with their children even when documentation is presented that proves the relationship, It is a false justification that pregnant underage girls were found , or even underage mothers. I am sure that these eager Lawmen could have found pregnant underage girls in Houston or Dallas, or by subpoenaing medical records at any abortion clinic, as was recently attempted to be done in Kansas. That deal caused a huge public backlash because the guilty parties were not a religious group. If these folks would have been abouting the children to avoid any evidence that anything was happening, it would have been ok and they still be happily molesting each other with no consquences... At least the LDS folks had the good judgement not to resist the confiscation of their children, so that no state sponsored cremations resulted.

Rock | 5:45 a.m. April 14, 2008

Texans...when will you rise and take back the state that used to be yours?

These folks might appear different, but so do Baptists, Jews, Catholics...and Gun-owners, Hunters, Constitutionalists, etc. Show me their crime!

How long will God-given rights be stolen? How long will yï¿½all allow the prejudice of bureaucrats to trump the rights secured to you by generations of vigilance and sacrifice?

With apologies to Neimoller:

In Texas, they first came for Davidians,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Davidian.
Then they came for FLDS,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an FLDS.
Then they came for gun-owners,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a gun-owner.
Then they came for Conservatives,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Moderate.
Then they came for me -
and by that time no one was left to protest.

Can't happen in Texas? It just did (Again!)! And y'all do nothing!?!

Sam Houston said, Texas has yet to learn submission to any oppression, come from what source it may. Today, heï¿½s apparently wrong! Where are your cajones?

This ex-pat Texan living temporarily in Virginia is ashamed that this tyranny is unopposed in Texas.

Nutvise | 5:52 a.m. April 14, 2008

It was only a matter of time before someone wrote a sympathetic article in defense of the pedophiles and their servile, submissive wives. Oddly, there is no mention of the fumarase deficiency caused by inbreeding, the techniques similar to waterboarding that they use on their children to force them into obedience, or how they expel many of the male children from the sect to eliminate the competition for the young girls. Inclusion of the above would bring a whole new meaning to the statement, "We love our children".

Helen | 5:51 a.m. April 14, 2008

Earlier "Pat" commented that they should have taken the men out of the compound and left the women and children. I couldn't agree more. Who in our country allows men to be married to 7 or 8 women, whether true marriages or "spiritual" marriages. These men wanted unlimited sex with young girls and all the babies they could make to keep them under control. But, Texas got it backwards. Remove the predators, not the prey.

John Gilbert | 5:56 a.m. April 14, 2008

Wether the government was right or not. the article is clearly bias. No mention of older teenage girls taken away. No comment from any male, just 30+ and older women. If the article had comments from a teen girl taken away that was having sex since 13 or 15 you might feel different. Point being it showed a side of the ranch, which is fine, but don't allow that to cloud the fact of sexual activities in the ranch of minors with men. None of this is good. Its a sad situation that a group of men are responsible for.

Cate | 5:56 a.m. April 14, 2008

So many people are claiming that since polygamy is still on the books as a crime, these people are fundamentally criminals who deserve the treatment they're getting. In most states, adultery and cohabitation are still on the books as crimes (or at least they were until recently), and yet, no one expects the police to round up the 90% of Manhattan and Orange County CA who are living "in sin".

What about the man who has a wife and kids and a pregnant mistress. Should they round up all his kids and throw him into jail?

If there is proven child abuse, punish the abusers. Otherwise the law should be upheld (or ignored) equally.

Also, when I was a foster mom, the state wouldn't remove any children from a home except the one who had actually sufferes abuse. Even then, the goal was to get them back home as soon as possible. Let's see some evidence of abuse other than a few sensational minutes on Nightline or Montel before overreact.

You'd think our government would've learned the lessons of WACO.

Rach | 6:02 a.m. April 14, 2008

It's the filthy old men that need to be removed- not the children from their mothers. I can't believe that was the course of action chosen. How ignorant.
I think polygamy is wrong on many levels, but if a consenting adult chooses that lifestyle then so be it. On the other hand, they should not be forcing little girls (or FORCING ANYONE for that matter) to wed and bear children for old men. There's a difference between choosing that life and being forced into it. It's the use of sexual and marital force and deception that is a crime here- not the polygamy.

Quick to condem | 6:05 a.m. April 14, 2008

People seems rather quick to condem the government today, yet you don't have many facts. How many 12 year old girls have to be found pregnant before you change your mind? How many pregnant teenagers did they find? Is that just cause for pulling the at risk 9-12 year olds out too? What about the emotional toll of breaking up families? Depending on what is happening that we don't know about, taking every child and the mothers could be the most benevolant solution.

Bewildered. | 6:05 a.m. April 14, 2008

I would like to know more about the Texas officials who initiated this action.

Michael | 6:06 a.m. April 14, 2008

The tyranny we fought a revolution over 200 years ago we have now created. An unsubstantiated phone call from a 16 year old, and American authorities March into a community and take away the children from their parents. If we are not outraged and fight for these people, the government will come for our children next! Freedom of Religion my foot!

Thank God the Mormons are peaceful people, and the Clintons are not in the White house or: we would have had another Waco.

George | 6:07 a.m. April 14, 2008

The most troubling aspect of these comments is the defense of the FLDS cult and its obvious, clear and convincing abuses of human rights and oppression of women and children.

Those commenters complain about "the government".

Can you imagine what our government would be like if FLDS believers were in control of our government?

Can you imagine what our lives would be like if we lived under an FLDS-controlled government?

THAT is frightening to conjure.

Anonymous | 6:11 a.m. April 14, 2008

Churches are safe in America but cults are not. God bless USA

Ryan | 6:12 a.m. April 14, 2008

Nobody is saying the "c"-word, but that's really what this is. It's a cult. It's the reason for the isolation and it's the reason for the Stockholm Syndrome-like reaction.

And if the possibility exist that any of these children are being arranged in marriage before the age of 16 or 17, then the government is correct in protecting them.

mindcrime | 6:13 a.m. April 14, 2008

Yeah these kids were well cared for until they hit age 13, then they were abused. Maybe if the members had of been more cooperative with authorities it wouldn't have came to this, but the fact that they wouldn't tell them what children belonged to what mother sounds like they were trying to be evasive. Misguided religious zealots should not be tolerated. Religion should not conflict with the larger societies laws to the degree that this cult did.

Mike Dashner | 6:21 a.m. April 14, 2008

Only in Utah and in an LDS owned paper would any one justify Polygamy. The apple does not fall far from the tree. I guess its all right for a mother to let her daughter be raped in the name of furthering the so called Kingdom of God.

Russ from MI | 6:16 a.m. April 14, 2008

This is another case of our government out of control and slow removal of personal freedoms and parental rights.I mean the warrant that was issued is dropped because the man accused hasn't been in Texas since 1979 and no arrest have been made.I could almost see them removing girls 11 or 12 -16 I mean that was the issue to begin with. I gather up my children everday and we stand in big circle and take turns praying this is we start our days before everyone heads out.I imagine the day will come when this is determined dangerous and brainwashing then my kids will be the ones being removed. Today its some sect in Texas tommorow it'll be you kids,your beliefs,and your personal property the government decides to strip away.As a christian I morally disagree with polygamy but as a liberterian I always side with personal freedoms for that is the only way to ensure all our freddoms.I mean I disagree with adultery,fornication,homosexuality,
and many other thing but I don't think our government should be making laws about these things and riping people lives apart.Freedom is the key that keeps the door of liberty open.

Wayne | 6:25 a.m. April 14, 2008

I have only one concern. And that is that the children here have been traumatized deeply. This entire situation should be handled carefully.

RG | 6:19 a.m. April 14, 2008

At least they are not as bad and the global warming cult. YFZ is not trying to bring down the world economy with there lies like the GW cult is doing

Anonymous | 6:23 a.m. April 14, 2008

This is the most unbalanced article I've ever read. No details on why the children were taken, just a sentence at the very end.

Pathetic reporting.

Also, no information on how many of the children were already married and had children of their own.

Terrible, terrible reporting. You should be ashamed of yourself.

And I don't know what church keeps a bed in the temple, specifically for the purpose of sex with minors.

Stephen Clark | 6:30 a.m. April 14, 2008

These mothers are good and decent people. You can tell by the way they dress(with decency and modesty) and the things they're now saying about their lives and children. The state is wrong in doing this and we must rise up and defend these people against this evil government. This travesty of justice (much like the evil practice of torture and spying) is just another small step in the dismantling of our constitution and bill of rights. The government is not protecting these children, they are in fact now placed in a greater danger. It's well known and documented that many children taken by CPS end up sexually abused in that system. These mothers and fathers know what is best for their children, not the state. This criminal government should release all of the children back to their parents now and stop violating our rights as US Citizens!

motherof3 | 6:33 a.m. April 14, 2008

Poligamy, incest and rape are illegal. How can mothers let this happen to their daughters and have their sons banished so the older men can have more wives?

cwm | 6:35 a.m. April 14, 2008

In W's Texas no less! Well folks there are no longer the civil rights that there once were. You are now living in W's post 9-11 country. What absolutely shocks me is that this happened once again in Texas. Before, during, and after W ruled there as governor. What kind of leadership does he offer? I think that the present state of the US economy offers an answer, as does the state of affairs in Afghanistan and Iraq. Incomplete and failure are this man's signature. This too will become a part of his legacy.

God bless the chicks they called him correctly years ago. Time has proved them correct too.

J.Raye | 6:29 a.m. April 14, 2008

As long as we're quoting the constitution, how about the 13th amendment: "Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude...shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction." These young girls are kept as chattel slaves by the old men of this sect. The old men forced these young girls "marry", force them to become pregnant over and over, year after year, and keep them imprisoned behind a locked gate. Where is John Brown when we need him? No one should be importing slavey into the great state of Texas.

get off it | 6:40 a.m. April 14, 2008

it happened all the time in American History..to the Native Americans and nobody was griping then. Then you wonder why we keep from going under!

Susan | 6:41 a.m. April 14, 2008

I am a bit surprised by the all the comments about how wonderful and noble this particular FLDS compound is. Sure this mother is missing her children....and sure she wants to know that they are o.k. But where were those instincts when her daughters were being married to older men as a second or third wife...Come on. The issue here isn't whether or not this mother loves her children....some of the worst parents in the world will say they "love" their children. The issue at hand is whether or not these mothers knowingly supported practices that put their children's mental and social development in danger. Call it whatever you want....But I call it decades of brainwashing control. Funny how quickly some are willing to defend adult males exercising sexual control over minor females. I guess society has not advanced as far as I thought it had.

Stephen Clark | 6:43 a.m. April 14, 2008

gunnut I agree completely with your post! You said it so well that it deserves another look. "Make no mistake. This action was not necessarily to protect the children. It was an excuse for a deeper motive of the Government of Texas. The action, like Waco, was an effort to stretch and test the limits of the Texas constitution and the Constitution of the United States. Also, the first amendment does say that CONGRESS shall MAKE NO LAW, regarding the ESTABLISHMENT OF RELIGION. I don't believe the government has the right to tell any faith they can't practice polygamy. What it can do is protect prosecute people for hurting others. NO PROOF HAS BEEN BROUGHT FORTH in this case. The FLDS's culture is different than the vast majority of the rest of America. That doesn't make their culture bad. Just different. If they are breaking laws concerning rape, statutory rape, physical abuse, incest and or marriage before coming of age, then the State of Texas can do something. Otherwise, leave'em alone. I agree that the men should've been taken off campus, leaving the women and children there."

Shelley | 6:44 a.m. April 14, 2008

I have no opinion about the way these people live at all BUT I do have a problem with the fact that there are children pregnant, made to marry fifty year old men, sex rooms off of the chapels where they have church services and I am sure much more that we have not heard. That is sick!! They needed to take these children until they can sort out and make sure they are safe! This is NOT about religion so people stop making it about that!! This is about emotional and sexual abuse to innocent children!!!

from_the _woods | 6:40 a.m. April 14, 2008

You have to wonder if some of the men you join the Church are sex offenders. To many stories of 14 year old girls getting 'married' in the church, but in society it would be called rape.

Anonymous | 6:48 a.m. April 14, 2008

There was an informant inside for 4 years. This was not a rash decision. it is a very complex situation when you have 400 + people involved - many of whom are brainwashed 2nd and 3rd generations abuse vistims! Don't be so quick to judge when you don't know all the facts.

Daniel | 6:42 a.m. April 14, 2008

I see a lot of women angry at men, and people in general angry at authority harping on how this is so wrong and the officials that came in are horrible. Give me a break. If I was in their situation I would want to react quickly, and effectively. If there are kids in a potentially abusive home you would have to be an idiot to leave them with a parent (even if it is the mom). All of the complaints about how the fathers need to take responsibility is garbage. The mothers are likely just as guilty for being enablers or possibly for abuse themselves. Does anyone honestly think that the law enforcement went in there thinking "I want to be as evil and illogical as possible". NO, they were acting the best way possibly to diffuse a difficult situation. To clean a dirty room it's always easiest to pull everything out and separate it first then put the necessary things back where they go and throw out the trash. Law enforcement acted responsibly here and if there was a kid living with abusive parents I would hope that they wouldn't leave the child with the mom.

Rick | 6:43 a.m. April 14, 2008

A little faith in the justice system please. The state was justified in acting because we had serious allegations of child abuse, forced mariages and rape in this compound. Is any of that true? Maybe not, would not be the first time the US Govenment was overzealous, but then it wouldn't be the first time we found some cult was brainwashing young women into slavery either. On the facts presented it sounds to me like this was a clasic cult, not a legitimate religious group and the state was perfectly justified in their actions. You'll have your day in court to disprove that. Bring FACTS to court with you not emotional appeals.

Robert H | 6:43 a.m. April 14, 2008

Remember, the reason the authorities went in there was a 16-year old girl calling in that she was being physically abused by an older "husband" who'd fathered children on her. This 'church' turns out many of their young men once they reach 18 to leave the underage girls for the middle-aged men. It is strictly illegal in Texas for an adult to engage in sex with an under-18 female, yet this group has done so for years in other states under color of religion. They picked the wrong place to try their pedophilic nonsense, and I only hope those taken away can be helped to understand the abusive nature of what was done to them.

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