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First look inside YFZ Ranch
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GK from England | 1:14 a.m. April 13, 2008
The media in England are having a field day with this story, especcially the
Daily Mail newspaper who are Anti-Mormon and love to print articles which
associate polygamy with the LDS Church, despite the fact that this story is
about the FLDS Church. As for the children being taken away into care, their
needs and safety must be met first. But let's not forget, before we all
pass a judgement, that all the people of the FLDS community are innocent until
proven guilty.
puzzled | 4:30 a.m. April 13, 2008
Proven guilty of What? I worry about making judgements concerning God fearing
people who largly obey the law and conduct themselves with dignity and
decency.
Are there pedophiles and 'dirty old men' lurking among these religious people? Most likely. The same could be said about almost any religion or sect. Surely most Americans are aware of the problems other churches have faced over the years in that regard.
As a child growing up, my Family lived near a compound of polygimists; they were polite and hard working. During the 50's and early 60's they chose to mainstream their children in public schools and it really was a benefit for them and the community at large.
My father was a principal in our community and welcomed their children into mainstream lifestyle. The complication of scrutiny and hate drove these folks underground and eventually into hiding. What damage has been done because of our persecution of their beliefs?
Let's punish the abusers and leave the rest of them alone to worship their God as they see fit.
Are there pedophiles and 'dirty old men' lurking among these religious people? Most likely. The same could be said about almost any religion or sect. Surely most Americans are aware of the problems other churches have faced over the years in that regard.
As a child growing up, my Family lived near a compound of polygimists; they were polite and hard working. During the 50's and early 60's they chose to mainstream their children in public schools and it really was a benefit for them and the community at large.
My father was a principal in our community and welcomed their children into mainstream lifestyle. The complication of scrutiny and hate drove these folks underground and eventually into hiding. What damage has been done because of our persecution of their beliefs?
Let's punish the abusers and leave the rest of them alone to worship their God as they see fit.
ST. George | 5:45 a.m. April 13, 2008
Shows we live in a police state, and the "Law Enforcerment" are really
just Nazi's.
One call, they should have found that girl first, then decided who needed to be taken. What about preliminary interviews of the children first, before wholesale taking of everyone.
One call, they should have found that girl first, then decided who needed to be taken. What about preliminary interviews of the children first, before wholesale taking of everyone.
Comments continue below
Edwards | 5:53 a.m. April 13, 2008
If the mother in this article insist on how much,
how can she explain and justify their practice of
expelling their sons from their families when they
are 18 and considered a threat to the older men of
the community? These boys are still their mothers
son even though they are older.
how can she explain and justify their practice of
expelling their sons from their families when they
are 18 and considered a threat to the older men of
the community? These boys are still their mothers
son even though they are older.
Thomas Moore | 6:27 a.m. April 13, 2008
Who will they see as unfit next? Whom will they come for next? In Bible thumper
land anyone who is different is vulnerable. Anyone may have their
constitutional rights denied.
Pete | 6:48 a.m. April 13, 2008
"Let My People Go..." I believe Texas has made a big mistake. They
have scared the hell out of 400 children, their mothers and their fathers, on an
assumption. Where were the overweight, undereducated deputy sheriffs when the
Priest were abusing choir boys? We cannot allow this to continue, No church is
safe in America anymore.
Pat | 7:30 a.m. April 13, 2008
There IS absolute power & abuse in polygamy. But only from the men. They
have total control of their families and have "sold" this
"religeon" over the generations to the women and children. If that`s
all you know for generations, it is and stays the way you live.
The MEN should`ve been rounded up & removed and questioning done with THEM off the property. The women & children questioned ON the property while the children were left in familiar surroundings!
It is unforgivable for the state to abuse and traumatize the good, obediant and sweet women and children of this community. The damage done to these children is horrendous! Why is America putting up with this? These are good people with the exception of the MEN, some who use every inch of "power" their invented "religeon" gives them. Make the MEN accountable, not the innocent.
Remove the MEN, question THEM, have THEM identify and straighten identies out or allow THEM to self-destroy the community instead of the state. The place would likely close down if the men were prevented from returning (because of non-cooperation).
The MEN should`ve been rounded up & removed and questioning done with THEM off the property. The women & children questioned ON the property while the children were left in familiar surroundings!
It is unforgivable for the state to abuse and traumatize the good, obediant and sweet women and children of this community. The damage done to these children is horrendous! Why is America putting up with this? These are good people with the exception of the MEN, some who use every inch of "power" their invented "religeon" gives them. Make the MEN accountable, not the innocent.
Remove the MEN, question THEM, have THEM identify and straighten identies out or allow THEM to self-destroy the community instead of the state. The place would likely close down if the men were prevented from returning (because of non-cooperation).
Brooke | 7:43 a.m. April 13, 2008
We clearly live in a police state where religious teachings are not allowed. No
prayer in school. Parents who believe in polygomy will not be allowed to raise
them. They will be raised in Foster Homes where religion is frowned on. Every
year they will be assigned to a new one. This action has been brought upon us
by Godless judges and liberals. People need to tell Texas to give back the
children!!! Their actions are evil.
Blackbane | 7:48 a.m. April 13, 2008
No proof there even is a 16 year old girl. I don't see anyone busting their rump looking for her. It could all be a hoax, some disgruntled x-FLDS woman pretending to be 16 and now she's doing it again in Arizona.
The way I see it, the local folks feared being out populated and thus out voted for local office like Sheriff.
So what's next, raid a sub-division because of an anonymous tip to a private re-hab clinic of a meth-lab in one out of the hundreds of homes in the town?
This is so kool, the government just conveniently gets a third party "he said she said they said" tip and they can raid a whole town.
Questions for those in favor | 8:07 a.m. April 13, 2008
Seriously, I can't see how anyone can believe that this was the right thing
to do. Please explain to me how you came to the conclusion that this was the
justified correct course? Explain how taking children from their parents is not
exactly what Satan would do?
Anonymous | 8:35 a.m. April 13, 2008
I think Texas will be funding the FLDS church for some time. This travesty will
cost Texas citizens hundreds of millions in lawsuits. How in the world can such
unqualified people become judges in this land? All of these volunteer lawyers
are so kind to represent the children? Rather I think they realize the potential
for a huge settlement for this very un-american act. The judge should resign, or
better be impeached.
Eddie | 8:58 a.m. April 13, 2008
There has been no conclusive proof offered by authorities to indicate that the
alleged victim even exists. I believe that this raid was initiated by
authorities who had no legal or justifiable reason to seize and take these
children away from their mothers.
The cops have nothing!! And they know it. I hope they get the hell sued out of them to the tune of several hundreds of million of dollars. The people of that compound just want to be left alone and nosy busybodies probably the "outraged" wives of politicians who don't have any other cause to pursue have latched onto this as their cause du jour.
The cops have nothing!! And they know it. I hope they get the hell sued out of them to the tune of several hundreds of million of dollars. The people of that compound just want to be left alone and nosy busybodies probably the "outraged" wives of politicians who don't have any other cause to pursue have latched onto this as their cause du jour.
DQ | 8:56 a.m. April 13, 2008
WE THE stupid, common, ordinary PEOPLE.
Uh...now what exactly is this group's sin?
Living communally and raising their children communally. Im sure our friendly Government Services pimps know how to raise kids better than us, the common man.
The so called 'services' the state provides would vanish if people realized the the value of SELF RELIANCE. :)
The state must create as many 'victims' as it can in order to continue it's growth. Keep feeding the beast 'victim pimps' and eventually you will have a government that knows better than you too.
Good government, Good job. Bad ordinary people, listen to your masters!
Uh...now what exactly is this group's sin?
Living communally and raising their children communally. Im sure our friendly Government Services pimps know how to raise kids better than us, the common man.
The so called 'services' the state provides would vanish if people realized the the value of SELF RELIANCE. :)
The state must create as many 'victims' as it can in order to continue it's growth. Keep feeding the beast 'victim pimps' and eventually you will have a government that knows better than you too.
Good government, Good job. Bad ordinary people, listen to your masters!
Spyros | 9:10 a.m. April 13, 2008
I have to say, this is nothing more than the Texas government going after the
FLDS members... for some reason, they see or hear the word "ploygamy",
and instantly, they assume this is some sinister and abusive cult.
This whole tragedy is unfounded, outrageous, and deeply offensive to me. I am not FLDS, but I sympathize... number one, the girls who supposedly made this call has not been found. Two, no damning evidence has been found. Three, the primary male suspect questioned, can prove he did no wrong. Third, no charges were filed before the raid, so what was there to base such a powerful warrant on? The word on ONE child, which cannot even be found? Is that the basis upon which the Texas Rangers justify destroying the lives of so many, and ripping apart families?
Also, what the heck was the Baptist Church doing, transporting these people? If the law enforcement agents wanted to take these people, let them do it themselves... use Sheriff's transports... don't have the Baptists come and help... there was NO reason for that, other than to "stick it" to the FLDS, as if to say, "we've saved you". Yeah, right.
This whole tragedy is unfounded, outrageous, and deeply offensive to me. I am not FLDS, but I sympathize... number one, the girls who supposedly made this call has not been found. Two, no damning evidence has been found. Three, the primary male suspect questioned, can prove he did no wrong. Third, no charges were filed before the raid, so what was there to base such a powerful warrant on? The word on ONE child, which cannot even be found? Is that the basis upon which the Texas Rangers justify destroying the lives of so many, and ripping apart families?
Also, what the heck was the Baptist Church doing, transporting these people? If the law enforcement agents wanted to take these people, let them do it themselves... use Sheriff's transports... don't have the Baptists come and help... there was NO reason for that, other than to "stick it" to the FLDS, as if to say, "we've saved you". Yeah, right.
Aaron | 9:07 a.m. April 13, 2008
Regardless of what you think of someone's religious views or practices,
this woman has a right to be with her children. Texas has committed a serious
mistake, shame on them.
VegasBaby | 9:26 a.m. April 13, 2008
Texas had four years to put together a solid case against these liars and
abusers. All they needed was probable cause under the fourth amendment to move
in. I hope the children never go back to their parents but that will be
decided when the the parents have their day in court. The children are now
allowed to laugh and cry, something that wasn't allowed in their
"loving" homes.
mom" | 9:32 a.m. April 13, 2008
In the early 60's the state of Arizona did this same thing. What did
anyone learn? It is against the law in the United States to practice having more
than one wife. So why now with all these fourty some years past is there the
same practice still being allowed among the same families among the same church?
Why haven't the men who are practicing something that is againt the laws
of our contry still living out in the open and not being accountable. You allow
the women of these men to be taken and the children. I can tell you as one who
know you will have problems for these children for the rest of their lives over
the way this has been handled. Just because they are children and everyone can
control a child but not it's parents.
Yes, we all are in danger and it doesn't have to be about anything different. Just the one who holds the power to say you are out of line and it is going to get a lot worse in the years to come. Practice and keep the laws of the land. This is America and we can change it. Mom:
Yes, we all are in danger and it doesn't have to be about anything different. Just the one who holds the power to say you are out of line and it is going to get a lot worse in the years to come. Practice and keep the laws of the land. This is America and we can change it. Mom:
LDS | 9:47 a.m. April 13, 2008
I agree with Pat.
Leave the children with their mother's, remove the men for the deeds.
Leave the children with their mother's, remove the men for the deeds.
Anonymous | 9:56 a.m. April 13, 2008
I'm simply amazed at how one news article has so drastically altered
people's stated opinions from what y'all were saying yesterday.
Grow brains | 10:05 a.m. April 13, 2008
PEOPLE, POLYGAMY IS A CRIME. Figure it out! It appears that the majority of
comments consider this dangerous cult to be a wonderful, delightiful lifestyle
just minding it's own business.
GROW BRAINS ALREADY! Polygamy is incredibly harmful to children, robs women of independent thought, costs the taxpayers millions a year in welfare fraud and assistance and is a haven for pedophiles and those wishing to engage in incestual behaviors. Absolutely criminal and should be ERADICATED from the planet. Utahns are wacky people and generally support the wrong idea on any topic (thanks for sweeping the tyrant GWB into office) but this Texas YFZ FLDS nonsense has to go the way of the dinosaur. Wake up.
GROW BRAINS ALREADY! Polygamy is incredibly harmful to children, robs women of independent thought, costs the taxpayers millions a year in welfare fraud and assistance and is a haven for pedophiles and those wishing to engage in incestual behaviors. Absolutely criminal and should be ERADICATED from the planet. Utahns are wacky people and generally support the wrong idea on any topic (thanks for sweeping the tyrant GWB into office) but this Texas YFZ FLDS nonsense has to go the way of the dinosaur. Wake up.
Anonymous | 10:06 a.m. April 13, 2008
Polygamy is wrong on many levels. If abuse is happening, it should be stopped.
If underage marriage is forced, it should be stopped. However, in a society that
allows (and often celebrates) gay relationships, gay "couples"
adopting children, out-of-wedlock births and rampant divorce, for the government
to punish every member of this society is ludicrous!
In America we can have sexual relations with whomever we want, male or female, have children with whomever we want, in and out of wedlock, and it's not punishable by law. But get married to more than one woman and have children and it's worthy of a government raid. As anti-polygamy as I am (it makes me sick), there is something seriously wrong with the Texas government taking over 400 children from their homes. It's hard to believe that they were ALL being abused.
In America we can have sexual relations with whomever we want, male or female, have children with whomever we want, in and out of wedlock, and it's not punishable by law. But get married to more than one woman and have children and it's worthy of a government raid. As anti-polygamy as I am (it makes me sick), there is something seriously wrong with the Texas government taking over 400 children from their homes. It's hard to believe that they were ALL being abused.
Reenie | 10:14 a.m. April 13, 2008
I am a member of the LDS church and do not believe that polygamy should be
practiced. I initially thought it was right to have these children removed from
their homes, but have changed my mind somewhat about that. So polygamy is
unlawful - so is adultery and child abuse. When will our government start
rounding up adulterers and child/women beaters. Come on Texas, go after
"the really bad guys." They are everywhere. How do we judge these
good mothers who have lost their children? In my eyes, they are misguided.
Pray the next move is not to tell us how, when, where and whom to worship in our
churches.
Emma | 10:14 a.m. April 13, 2008
I feel very sad for the Children. I'm sure the Mothers are good to their
young children but what about making your teenage girls get married so young and
taking away their free agency????? The men are the ones who should have been
taken away. I do have to say that the poor young girls are married way to young
and do not have a freedom or Free agency to choose to go to college and marry a
man she falls in love with. In my eyes that is abusive...Not letting them choose
there Husband. When A female child/teenager is forced to get married and told
it is what God wants her to do. I think that is abusive and needs to stop.
It's one thing to choose it in your twenties but forced into in your teens
is just Wrong and against the law. Girls need to be teenagers not teenage
Mothers...
Human Puppy Mill | 10:36 a.m. April 13, 2008
What does this article tell us? That the mothers love their children. So what.
I really have no sympathy for any mother who turns her teenage daughters into
puppy-mill-style baby factories.
Remembers Reenie :-) | 10:36 a.m. April 13, 2008
I feel so sorry for the whole group. I think most of them are honest,
hardworking people. But the men who had a hand in forcing the youg girls to
maryy at such a young age, should be punished! They are SO wrong!
To have taken all of these children away from their homes is not right either. What good does it do to break up those families? Surely there are better ways to deal with this problem.
To have taken all of these children away from their homes is not right either. What good does it do to break up those families? Surely there are better ways to deal with this problem.
Darin | 10:39 a.m. April 13, 2008
Wow, this is what happens to children because of their fathers who are greedy
stupid men. The children are paying for the sins of their fathers. End of story!
What gives here? | 10:49 a.m. April 13, 2008
A few points:
1. Where I live a father that allegedly abuses a child is hauled off to jail, and the mom and child are not forcibly sequestered in a different location, they remain at home or in a professional facility to receive medical or other offered help for their wounds, physical or otherwise.
2. Mom gets to stay with child and nurture / comfort the child and receive help and solace from those willing to help.
3. Someone who usually exists steps forward or is usually found That made the allegations against the father, not a phantom that cannot be found, usually. Maybe they remain publicly anonymous but authorities are in contact with the person, usually. That person usually has not disappeared into the mist.
4. The mom and child usually are not hauled off to parts unknown to them. The child and mom usually remain in comfortable surroundings or at home.
5. There are usually far fewer offending dads than abused children and moms. Isn't it far more efficient and possibly LEGAL "usually" to haul the alleged offending dad(s) off to jail instead of traumatizing the mom and child further?
6. Are we the USA, or NOT?
1. Where I live a father that allegedly abuses a child is hauled off to jail, and the mom and child are not forcibly sequestered in a different location, they remain at home or in a professional facility to receive medical or other offered help for their wounds, physical or otherwise.
2. Mom gets to stay with child and nurture / comfort the child and receive help and solace from those willing to help.
3. Someone who usually exists steps forward or is usually found That made the allegations against the father, not a phantom that cannot be found, usually. Maybe they remain publicly anonymous but authorities are in contact with the person, usually. That person usually has not disappeared into the mist.
4. The mom and child usually are not hauled off to parts unknown to them. The child and mom usually remain in comfortable surroundings or at home.
5. There are usually far fewer offending dads than abused children and moms. Isn't it far more efficient and possibly LEGAL "usually" to haul the alleged offending dad(s) off to jail instead of traumatizing the mom and child further?
6. Are we the USA, or NOT?
Systemic Abuse | 10:56 a.m. April 13, 2008
Instead of justifying the lifestyle, the mainstream LDS members would be better
served to break up these compounds where abuse is systemic. They will tarnish
the image of the church in the way the Islamic fundamentalists have tarnished
mainstream Islam. It's really in your best interest to denounce these
groups. Also, when you compare the Texas Rangers to the Nazis it really destroys
your credibility. The Texas authorities had no choice but to follow up on the
phone call from the distressed girl. What good is a help-line that ignores
their callers? The reaction of removing the children was not based entirely on
the phone call, it was based on 4 years of research into the community and
interviews with informants and other sources.
Listen to Truth | 11:07 a.m. April 13, 2008
I find here that most people are believing the possibly fabricated stories of
ex-members, they wouldn't be ex members unless FLDS wasn't something
they hated. I'm not convinced beyond a doubt that all they say is
absolutely true. I think there is two sides to every story, and I don't
believe that the state of texas has done the right thing in doing what they did.
It is reminiscent of a police state. I'm sure there is some abuses, but I
seriously doubt that everything that everybody is saying is gospel.
culture shock | 11:08 a.m. April 13, 2008
Wow. Its clear not many here would survive living in a culture of arranged
marriages. I never knew my ancestors were so abused.
Texan no more | 11:10 a.m. April 13, 2008
Which FLDS leader chose to move to the state of Texas? Who did the research.
Texas takes more children out of the home per capita than any other state. The
FLDS people are breaking the law to allow young girls to marry and they were
unwise to escape the 'safer haven' of Utah/Arizona to practice such
crimes. They may be peace loving people, in general, but they certainly know
that they are breaking the law and that anyone who breaks the law can and may be
prosecuted at some time. They were not thinking of their families and children
when they chose to walk at the edge of the cliff.
Secret Society | 11:13 a.m. April 13, 2008
Another story about the victimized mothers. I notice the men are conspicuously
silent. Most of the comments I have read lead me to believe that most people
(myself included) could care less what alternative lifestyle their neighbors
practice. Very few people however, will stand by and condone underage
�marriages� of young girls to older
men or the abandonment of the excess young boys.
I�m a married mother of 3 beautiful children and I�m insulted that the FLDS teach their children that we �outsiders� in the world are evil and not to be trusted. It�s the same faulty generalization that the polygamists complain they are characterized by. It�s unfortunate that the Texas raid will have the unwanted effect of increasing their already substantial paranoia.
Jeffs has not only brought himself down, but his entire congregation by wielding excessive power and control over their lives in creating his secret society. Most polygamists skirt bigamy laws by legally marrying only one wife. I personally don�t agree with polygamy and strongly object to welfare payments, but many polygamists have chosen to integrate into society and practice their faith without subjecting minors to these abuses. Obviously, the FLDS just can�t figure this out.
I�m a married mother of 3 beautiful children and I�m insulted that the FLDS teach their children that we �outsiders� in the world are evil and not to be trusted. It�s the same faulty generalization that the polygamists complain they are characterized by. It�s unfortunate that the Texas raid will have the unwanted effect of increasing their already substantial paranoia.
Jeffs has not only brought himself down, but his entire congregation by wielding excessive power and control over their lives in creating his secret society. Most polygamists skirt bigamy laws by legally marrying only one wife. I personally don�t agree with polygamy and strongly object to welfare payments, but many polygamists have chosen to integrate into society and practice their faith without subjecting minors to these abuses. Obviously, the FLDS just can�t figure this out.
Mom | 11:31 a.m. April 13, 2008
Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps these mothers should have said who their
children were when initially given the opportunity, so that they could leave
with them. Perhaps they should have taught their children to always be honest,
so that when people ask who their parents are, they can give a straight
answer.
If the "men" on this compound were really men, they'd own up to the abuse and trauma they've put these women and children through and turn themselves in. I can understand why there is some reluctance to place these women back with their children. In Utah, the law they are violating is "failure to protect" when they know abuse is occuring and stand idly by. I'm sure Texas has a similar law.
If the "men" on this compound were really men, they'd own up to the abuse and trauma they've put these women and children through and turn themselves in. I can understand why there is some reluctance to place these women back with their children. In Utah, the law they are violating is "failure to protect" when they know abuse is occuring and stand idly by. I'm sure Texas has a similar law.
Don | 11:33 a.m. April 13, 2008
Reading the vicious comments over the past few days,
it clearly portrays the hatred that sits just under
the surface in peoples hearts. Punish the offending individual, if the facts are there. But to destroy an entire community is beyond the pale.The Native Americans know exactly what is being done in Texas.
In the late 1800's, this same "Program" being used
against these people today, was used to "Deprogram"
the Indians, and break them from the "Old Ways", of
their people. They were ripped from their families,
and sent far from them. They were not allowed to even speak their own language, of worship as they belived. History is repeating itself. Now the story
is coming out, that the purported phone call, may have been a hoax. If this proves true, then what. Will the State of Texas change their story as to why
they conducted themselves in such a tawdry manner, and how will they justify themselves. At least in Waco, Texas and the Feds got to burn up the evidence.
it clearly portrays the hatred that sits just under
the surface in peoples hearts. Punish the offending individual, if the facts are there. But to destroy an entire community is beyond the pale.The Native Americans know exactly what is being done in Texas.
In the late 1800's, this same "Program" being used
against these people today, was used to "Deprogram"
the Indians, and break them from the "Old Ways", of
their people. They were ripped from their families,
and sent far from them. They were not allowed to even speak their own language, of worship as they belived. History is repeating itself. Now the story
is coming out, that the purported phone call, may have been a hoax. If this proves true, then what. Will the State of Texas change their story as to why
they conducted themselves in such a tawdry manner, and how will they justify themselves. At least in Waco, Texas and the Feds got to burn up the evidence.
Right Thing | 11:34 a.m. April 13, 2008
Texas did the right thing in removing these children from an abusive situation.
From Arizona | 11:51 a.m. April 13, 2008
Amen to Don's comment.
Unfortunately, vicious people and vicious practices still exist in this country and will never be stamped out.
I just hope that "innocent until proven guilty" survives. I don't agree in any way with the FLDS, but let's prosecute the real offenders, where and when they exist, and let's PROVE they are guilty.
Unfortunately, vicious people and vicious practices still exist in this country and will never be stamped out.
I just hope that "innocent until proven guilty" survives. I don't agree in any way with the FLDS, but let's prosecute the real offenders, where and when they exist, and let's PROVE they are guilty.
wrz | 11:47 a.m. April 13, 2008
>>But let's not forget, before we all pass a judgment, that all the
people of the FLDS community are innocent until proven guilty.<< - GK from
England
Then why, one would wonder, are the kids being kidnapped by Texas law enforcement and "jailed?"
Then why, one would wonder, are the kids being kidnapped by Texas law enforcement and "jailed?"
wrz | 11:56 a.m. April 13, 2008
>>Are there pedophiles and 'dirty old men' lurking among these
religious people? Most likely.<< - puzzled
I'm sure there are dirty old men lurking in perhaps Dallas, Houston, or Fort Worth. Do you see Texas law enforcement emptying those communities of all their children?
I'm sure there are dirty old men lurking in perhaps Dallas, Houston, or Fort Worth. Do you see Texas law enforcement emptying those communities of all their children?
CL | 11:58 a.m. April 13, 2008
Underage girls forced to marry and yes, I said forced because they have been so
indoctrinated that everything else in the world is so evil, is just wrong and
against the law. Why do the polygamists marry off the girls so young? Can
somebody answer that? This is the 21st century, not the pioneer days when people
lived much shorter lives.
Isn't it just an abuse of power over others?
Believe what you will, but it's not a free choice when you live in fear. They have to investigate whether there was abuse. The story sounds so pitiful from these moms, but sorry, the inbreeding and coercion makes me think they wouldn't admit abuse anyway.
Isn't it just an abuse of power over others?
Believe what you will, but it's not a free choice when you live in fear. They have to investigate whether there was abuse. The story sounds so pitiful from these moms, but sorry, the inbreeding and coercion makes me think they wouldn't admit abuse anyway.
wrz | 12:03 p.m. April 13, 2008
>>Regardless of what you think of someone's religious views or
practices, this woman has a right to be with her children. Texas has committed a
serious mistake, shame on them.<< Aaron
You're right, Aaron. And if I were the FLDS I would get the best lawyers in the land and sue the pants off Texas.
You're right, Aaron. And if I were the FLDS I would get the best lawyers in the land and sue the pants off Texas.
What Rights? | 12:06 p.m. April 13, 2008
I would like 2 point out The Fourth Amendment "The right of the people to
be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable
searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but
upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly
describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be
seized." AMERICA is FAILING and will 4ever go down hill If we as a people
don't stand up for our Constitutional Rights...Our Forefathers fought lived
and died 4 our freedom. Is this how we repay them?...
Tell The Truth | 12:10 p.m. April 13, 2008
CL what proof do you have that more than 1 or 2 cases of what you call underaged
is happening? As I'm aware it wasn't even illegal in that state until
Congress pushed a law through specifically targeting this group. I though
Congress was to pass no law like that. You are the ones that are brainwashed to
believe all that the media tells. Or all that people with less than pure
motives express. I am chagrined to see so many people pass judgment here, and
want to take these precious pure children and indoctrinate them in the
"freedom" of the world this day. Let's teach them that
premarital sex is ok, that not covering your body is a expression of freedom,
that dirty old men go everywhere in this world to fulfill their filthy desires.
Let's pull all the children out of the slums in NY, Detroit, and on top of
that the child trafficking that is happening all over the globe to fulfill
men's sickness. You are all hypocrites, and know full well that this boils
down to their religion and their beliefs. Keep spouting all your perceived
wrongs with this group and manifest your own hearts.
Tell the Truth | 12:08 p.m. April 13, 2008
What Rights!!
Smack on comment. America doesn't care, they have lost their rights so far now in the name of protection, and safety that before they know it, they will have none left and our Once Great Country will be a shell of itself, and we will be subject to greater tyranny than could be thought possible. I am moving from this nation.
Smack on comment. America doesn't care, they have lost their rights so far now in the name of protection, and safety that before they know it, they will have none left and our Once Great Country will be a shell of itself, and we will be subject to greater tyranny than could be thought possible. I am moving from this nation.
loveathome | 12:11 p.m. April 13, 2008
What I don't understand is why the FLDS were so secretive about their
lifestyle? If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why
not just live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the
rest of the Christians do? Maybe because it wasn't?! ... well, duh...
Susan | 12:18 p.m. April 13, 2008
**I'm simply amazed at how one news article has so drastically altered
people's stated opinions from what y'all were saying yesterday.**
It is amazing what happens when the truth becomes known.
It is amazing what happens when the truth becomes known.
CL | 12:19 p.m. April 13, 2008
This is where the social imperative of protecting the young and the vulnerable
collides with the constitutional guarantee of freedom of religion.
There are laws in that state about underage marriage whether you like it or not. Look it up.
Go on and on about all the other abuses in the world, but because this is associated with "religion" it is more palatable to you?
I'm for equal opportunity in going after abusers, whether they are religious nuts or anything else.
That's not hypocrisy. Saying that is about their religious beliefs alone is hypocrisy. Victims are often voiceless and that's part of the problem with all types of abuse cases. Don't try to tell me it's about religion only. It's not.
There are laws in that state about underage marriage whether you like it or not. Look it up.
Go on and on about all the other abuses in the world, but because this is associated with "religion" it is more palatable to you?
I'm for equal opportunity in going after abusers, whether they are religious nuts or anything else.
That's not hypocrisy. Saying that is about their religious beliefs alone is hypocrisy. Victims are often voiceless and that's part of the problem with all types of abuse cases. Don't try to tell me it's about religion only. It's not.
camille | 12:23 p.m. April 13, 2008
i feel sorry for the mothers - most of them have been probably abused when they
were younger so they dont know any better - i dont know whether they are right
or wrong - but in my country kids are abused all the time - and if the
athorities are told of such an incident the man is immediatly removed from the
situation... and charged... too much of this has been going on and while i
disagree with the removal of so many children, i believe they were right to act
so swiftly ...children are not chattels - to be used and treated like so much
garbage. I pray for them and ask God that the truth come to light - if these
women know that their children have been hurt then now is the time to stand up
and fight for these kids... dont let the same be done to them... Please..
Re: What Rights? | 12:25 p.m. April 13, 2008
How do YOU know that their 4th amendment rights were violated? Were YOU there?
I believe this question will be addressed in court on Thursday. My understanding
is that while the authorities were there LEGALLY to search for a caller, they
found numerous underage pregnant and teen mothers. Do you really want the
police to ignore calls for help, even if it turns out the call was bogus? Would
you expect the police to turn a blind eye to violations of the law that they
actually witness?
Broadening the scope of the search warrant for evidence and removing all the children did not occur until AFTER officers had found 18 underage girls who were either pregnant or had recently given birth�a clear violation of statutory rape laws. It was in the news.
Get your facts straight and educate yourself on State and Federal laws, especially those involving search and seizure.
Broadening the scope of the search warrant for evidence and removing all the children did not occur until AFTER officers had found 18 underage girls who were either pregnant or had recently given birth�a clear violation of statutory rape laws. It was in the news.
Get your facts straight and educate yourself on State and Federal laws, especially those involving search and seizure.
Hal | 12:32 p.m. April 13, 2008
===What I don't understand is why the FLDS were so secretive about their
lifestyle?===
My guess is that they wanted to live apart so as not have their children influenced by the immoral world that we see around us.
===If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why not just live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the rest of the Christians do?===
Maybe for the same reason the Amish, Mennonites, etc., want to live apart.
My guess is that they wanted to live apart so as not have their children influenced by the immoral world that we see around us.
===If it was so wholesome and God-fearing and honest and wonderful, why not just live in mainstream society and just practice your religion like the rest of the Christians do?===
Maybe for the same reason the Amish, Mennonites, etc., want to live apart.
Nation of Laws | 12:31 p.m. April 13, 2008
Use your IQ not your emotion please. Please think with your head not with your
heart. If anyone knows what the constitution says, knows that this search was
illegal, as was the subsequent removal of these children.
We are a nation of laws. And despite what you may want, those laws are often set up to protect the accused. Our constitution was written, not for the people, but in order to keep the government at bay, to keep the government from having too much power over the people. Yes, they practice polygamy, which is in violation of our laws. But last time I checked in the constitution, the supreme law of this land, never says a word about polygamy or the practice thereof. But it does setup grounds for lawful searches and rights of the government.
We are a nation of laws. And despite what you may want, those laws are often set up to protect the accused. Our constitution was written, not for the people, but in order to keep the government at bay, to keep the government from having too much power over the people. Yes, they practice polygamy, which is in violation of our laws. But last time I checked in the constitution, the supreme law of this land, never says a word about polygamy or the practice thereof. But it does setup grounds for lawful searches and rights of the government.
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