Reader comments
FLDS's Barlow says he's wrong guy
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Legal Beagle | 5:22 a.m. April 10, 2008
Although I do not share the beliefs of the FLDS and adamantly oppose the idea of
underage marriages, etc., I find this massive law enforcement operation to raid
homes, search religious structures, and remove children from families based on
the uncorroborrated claim of one anonymous complainant to be a frightening
precedent. Having worked with many law enforcement agents and officers, I am
very familiar with the criminal standards of reasonable suspicion and probable
cause that are used in affidavits to support search and arrest warrants. I can
think of no case I was ever involved with where a judge would have authorized
even a search of a computer, let alone a home or religious structure, based on
uncorroborated claims of an anonymous complainant. If I call the police
anonymously and claim my neighbor has child porn on his computer, would that be
probable cause to justify a search warrant of my neighbor's home? No,
unless I was willing to identify myself and testify as to how I know about the
child porn and offer some corroborrative evidence or other witnesses. Was there
any evidence of abuse in any of the families separated in TX justifying a
sweeping raid? No.
Mahonri | 5:47 a.m. April 10, 2008
How typical that the authorities screw things up this badly.
JND | 6:20 a.m. April 10, 2008
Hey, that's right! O.J. was the wrong guy, too!
Comments continue below
Help them out!! | 6:38 a.m. April 10, 2008
Let's get the right men and help these people out of a wretched
situation.
How is it polygamy is against the law and yet we turn a blind eye to it?
How is it polygamy is against the law and yet we turn a blind eye to it?
Situation | 6:40 a.m. April 10, 2008
This situation isn't right. The authorities are a bit too quick to jump
and in so doing affirms what the FLDS preach.
Andrew | 6:46 a.m. April 10, 2008
What evidence is there that the alleged cell phone call was even made from the
YFZ ranch, much less who made it? The advantage of cell phones is that they are
mobile; the disadvantage is that the exact location of the phone at the time a
particular call is made cannot be precisely determined.
Could this whole thing have been perpetrated by someone outside the compound who had a grudge against the FLDS community? If so, they have succeeded wildly.
Could this whole thing have been perpetrated by someone outside the compound who had a grudge against the FLDS community? If so, they have succeeded wildly.
liberal larry | 7:11 a.m. April 10, 2008
Texans don't take too kindly to institutionalized child sexual abuse,
assault, and incest etc. The polygamists must be asking themselves, "Why
did we ever leave good old Utah?"
Joseph Mattews | 7:28 a.m. April 10, 2008
I was thinking about freedom in America. Lets see we went after the Mormons in
Narvoo. Everyone knew what they were doing and it had to be stoped. We went
after the Japanese in California. Someone said they may be spying. We went after
the African-Americans because they were getting out of line.
When I look at old glory tears come to my eyes when I think what it stands for. Now we can end the religion in Elderado, Texas.
When I look at old glory tears come to my eyes when I think what it stands for. Now we can end the religion in Elderado, Texas.
I don't agree with FLDS but... | 7:39 a.m. April 10, 2008
Whether or not as a society we agree with the FLDS, they do have rights, and
this article indicates that they were completely abused.
Re; liberal larry- you are a liberal because you don't believe in the constitution, glad I don't live in Texas, home of the oppressed.
Re; liberal larry- you are a liberal because you don't believe in the constitution, glad I don't live in Texas, home of the oppressed.
Are you kidding? | 7:51 a.m. April 10, 2008
I would be curious to know how many of you posting today are LDS. How can you
defend the rape of children under the age of 16? How can you defend the actions
of FLDS? Do you truly not think the government should step in to protect
children? And look at the comments we get, the government is going after them
etc... Pitiful
Glad action was taken | 7:52 a.m. April 10, 2008
Wake up people! Read the articles again! Listen to the newspapers. There is
evidence of abuse, physical and sexual! There is strict rules that this group
live by; and that is to do what ever the man says you do! This is also abuse!
What they found in their "temple" just makes me sick. If you
don't think there was wrong doing happening there, then take another
look!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
To: don't agree | 7:39am | 7:59 a.m. April 10, 2008
You are correct. They have rights. Even those 12-16 year-old girls have
rights. I'm glad Texas has decided to preserve those rights.
Anonymous | 7:56 a.m. April 10, 2008
Why don't they track down the phone number and who the cell phone belong to
and eventually they can find the girl. I felt bad for the girl regardless what
happened. She needs to be protected and authority needs to find out from her
the truth.
Jumped the Gun | 7:58 a.m. April 10, 2008
There is no evidence that the FLDS church did anything wrong. People form texas
like to jump to conclusions, like Iraq and George Bush.
The FLDS are weird so they must be doing something wrong, right? Maybe but we can't just take their children away based upon one phone call, that was most likely a prank. Americans have rights so stuff like this shouldn't happen, it is sad when fear is used to take away constitutional rights.
The FLDS are weird so they must be doing something wrong, right? Maybe but we can't just take their children away based upon one phone call, that was most likely a prank. Americans have rights so stuff like this shouldn't happen, it is sad when fear is used to take away constitutional rights.
Thank you exactly! | 8:04 a.m. April 10, 2008
Why go back to the original accusation (If it's wrong) when they've
found what the found! My goodness! They went in from a tip and found terrible
abuse and took steps to help it. Why would anybody consider the rights of this
group when they have taken away so many rights of young people?
r u kidding | 8:03 a.m. April 10, 2008
Defending FLDS... ?
I just don't get how a society claims to protect children, and then all your posts are about breaking up the family. The church already broke up the family.
I just don't get how a society claims to protect children, and then all your posts are about breaking up the family. The church already broke up the family.
Conservitive | 8:05 a.m. April 10, 2008
Those women and children and babies have constitutional rights too. They have
the right to life liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I don't think being
raped and beaten and water tortued fits those standards. Those men need to be
sitting in prison. Way to go Texas!!! Shame on Utah and Arizona!!!
You guys are increadible | 8:07 a.m. April 10, 2008
Honestly, using their informant who told them about the wedding bed, or even
past practice as the benefit of a doubt they could have gotten a warrant to go
in and inspect the children ensuring that none were abused or pregnant.
Guess what?
They were.
Guess what?
They were.
Hyrum | 8:08 a.m. April 10, 2008
sounds like this Judge Walker needs to learn her real limits and not made up
ones.
Anonymous | 8:16 a.m. April 10, 2008
Who is the "right" 50yo man to be married to a 16yo and breaking her
ribs? What are these "religious" rights to force women into sexual
slavery like breeding mares? Why are AZ, UT and CO still permitting organized
groups of up to 100K people in compounds with armed guards on towers protecting
the entrance and egress to grow?
Wondering | 8:18 a.m. April 10, 2008
You don't suppose that those individuals that are so against the FLDS and
their life style, would make a false claim by having one of their own call,
posing as this poor child, stating she was being beaten, just to cause all of
this do you?
The Texan | 8:23 a.m. April 10, 2008
The FLDS messed up and badly. Why it took so long for the authorities to act is
anyones guess. I don't offer an explanation only a heart felt thanks that
it's finally taking place.
CPS and DPS are agencies with a very good record in Texas. They have the support of the people who put them there.
To: I don't agree with FLDS but... I'm glad you don't live here either. You would be hard to explain. The only people whose rights were being abused are the victims here and trust me, they aren't middle men. Get real.
CPS and DPS are agencies with a very good record in Texas. They have the support of the people who put them there.
To: I don't agree with FLDS but... I'm glad you don't live here either. You would be hard to explain. The only people whose rights were being abused are the victims here and trust me, they aren't middle men. Get real.
Matthew | 8:19 a.m. April 10, 2008
They better find that mythical 16 year old or the FLDS is going to have a bunch more money courtesy of the citizens of Texas.
My bet is that she doesn't exist and that it was enemies of the FLDS that faked the call.
Some people never learn. There was probably less of the activity that liberal larry decries going on at YFZ than has been the routine for years in Eldorado and other nearby communities. Nobody is perfect, but some people are better at making mistakes than others.
Reader | 8:25 a.m. April 10, 2008
Looks like we'll have to run DNA tests to sort this out. Nobody wants to
admit to anything. A bunch of children and their mothers we're victims of
immaculate conception otherwise.
Barlow already is convicted once of something he said he was not guilty of. Second time, I think he'll take the same path. The truth is not in him.
Barlow already is convicted once of something he said he was not guilty of. Second time, I think he'll take the same path. The truth is not in him.
Barlow says he's wrong guy | 8:27 a.m. April 10, 2008
I guess a paternity test can take care of that.
re: are you kidding? | 8:48 a.m. April 10, 2008
I'm not sure religious affiliation has anything to do with it, but I agree
with everything else that you said. How can anyone defend rape, especially of
underaged girls, as well as the isolation and mind control....this is all wrong
and I'm glad Texas took action.
It's falling apart | 8:50 a.m. April 10, 2008
Doesn't anyone care that almost nothing in the call that originated this
huge raid is factual?
- The caller was not in the Texas compound.
- The aleged abuser was not in the Texas compound.
- Barlow is a common FLDS name, any disgruntled person could have made this call.
They could have easily confirmed some of the facts in the call just by checking to verify her story that she was taken to the hospital Easter weekend.
They obviously didn't do ANY checking. Just rounded up the police, tanks, etc (much like Waco) and went in a big show of force.
Some commenter the day of the raid actually said police were greated by automatic gunfire when they tried to serve the warrant. That turned out to be a bunch of BS (much like the rest of the claims leading up to this raid).
I hope they catch the bad guys. But I hope the rest of the people who's rights were abused just because they are of the wrong faith or live in the wrong town get justice in the end.
- The caller was not in the Texas compound.
- The aleged abuser was not in the Texas compound.
- Barlow is a common FLDS name, any disgruntled person could have made this call.
They could have easily confirmed some of the facts in the call just by checking to verify her story that she was taken to the hospital Easter weekend.
They obviously didn't do ANY checking. Just rounded up the police, tanks, etc (much like Waco) and went in a big show of force.
Some commenter the day of the raid actually said police were greated by automatic gunfire when they tried to serve the warrant. That turned out to be a bunch of BS (much like the rest of the claims leading up to this raid).
I hope they catch the bad guys. But I hope the rest of the people who's rights were abused just because they are of the wrong faith or live in the wrong town get justice in the end.
nvlawyer | 8:58 a.m. April 10, 2008
Something smells like a big rotten evangelical persecution fish in all this
mess. This will turn out to be a bunch of hearsay with no evidence. They may or
may not find the "children" who are pregnant are of proper age. If
that is the case, then what is the case?
Dare Devin | 9:05 a.m. April 10, 2008
Isn't it true that cell phones in the U.S. have a GPS chip in them that
allows their location to be known?
To Are you kidding?: Are YOU kidding? Nobody is defending rape of children or the FLDS. It is a simple fact that they have certain rights against unreasonable search. They could be sacrificing children in there, but if the law officials do not have a pretty solid reason for going in, the evidence could all be thrown out and they would all walk away free men. Same here, if law enforcement is found to have overstepped, the guilty could walk away.
To Are you kidding?: Are YOU kidding? Nobody is defending rape of children or the FLDS. It is a simple fact that they have certain rights against unreasonable search. They could be sacrificing children in there, but if the law officials do not have a pretty solid reason for going in, the evidence could all be thrown out and they would all walk away free men. Same here, if law enforcement is found to have overstepped, the guilty could walk away.
Yay Texas | 9:11 a.m. April 10, 2008
They had a good faith tip they thought was valid. When they got in there, they
saw evidence of rampant sexual abuse and rape of children. That is sufficient
probable cause to remove the children. Good for Texas. Were they supposed to
turn a blind eye when they saw what they did?
where is the 16 yr old girl? | 9:30 a.m. April 10, 2008
If they don't even have the girl who is making these claims, why the heck
can they arrest someone? I don't agree with children being abused, but come
on, they don't even know who called them! It could of been some teen in
delaware making a prank call. I don't agreee with this at all.
Kitenoa | 9:46 a.m. April 10, 2008
Now that the authorities had gone in and taken all those several hundreds of
children, what is their exit strategy for helping these deprived and abused
souls?
Seriously | 9:48 a.m. April 10, 2008
Let's get this straight. Assuming all the allegations are true, I
don't know anyone that wouldn't be in favor of raiding the compound,
rounding up all the sickos and putting them cells for the next twenty-five
years. No one is trying to defend rape. There are two potential problems: 1)
The source isn't authentic, the abuses are exaggerated and there's a
whole bunch of people who've just had their constitutional rights violated
because they're different. 2) The allegations are true, but all the rapists
will get off on a technicality because the evidence will be thrown out of court.
Perhaps I haven't read enough, but I'm not aware of any conclusive
evidence that proves any of the allegations. I suspect many of them are true,
but you can't prosecute or convict on a hunch, and the evidence they do
have may have been obtained illegally.
Benjamin Pratt | 9:48 a.m. April 10, 2008
Whether or not you agree with the premise of the raid, here are the facts (where
I work here in Houston, we deal with them on a regular basis).
Over 400 kids are going to be placed in one of the most overworked and underfunded state foster care systems in the country.
Over 400 innocent children are going to be sent to (most likely public) schools in a state that boasts the second highest dropout rate in the country.
Over 400 innocent children are stepping into the limelight of a state that boasts extreme intolerance for 'atypical' religions.
God help these children, because Texas won't.
Over 400 kids are going to be placed in one of the most overworked and underfunded state foster care systems in the country.
Over 400 innocent children are going to be sent to (most likely public) schools in a state that boasts the second highest dropout rate in the country.
Over 400 innocent children are stepping into the limelight of a state that boasts extreme intolerance for 'atypical' religions.
God help these children, because Texas won't.
eric | 9:51 a.m. April 10, 2008
state of texas, you look stupid!eric.
David P. | 10:18 a.m. April 10, 2008
To Benjamin Pratt,
Overworked and underfunded. OK.
Dropout rate. Understood.
Intolerance for "atypical" religions. Good for them! Cults should NOT be tolerated!
But over 400 kids will be out of a sexually abusive, religiously fanatic, emotionally damaging situation.
It is a good decision.
Overworked and underfunded. OK.
Dropout rate. Understood.
Intolerance for "atypical" religions. Good for them! Cults should NOT be tolerated!
But over 400 kids will be out of a sexually abusive, religiously fanatic, emotionally damaging situation.
It is a good decision.
Concerned LDS | 10:20 a.m. April 10, 2008
Where is the LDS Church responding to what is happening, (1) given the LDS
history of abuse at the hands of lawless people, (2) given the LDS history of
polygamy and the FLDS relationship to LDS doctrine, (3) given the LDS claim to
defend the US Constitution as "divinely inspired," (4) given the
recent LDS leadership statements on "compassion" for illegal
immigrants, (5) given the huge LDS emphasis on humanitarian service, and (6)
given the many LDS Wards and Stakes in the Texas areas with "Saints of
God" who love and reach out and lift up? Where is a statement from the LDS
First Presidency denouncing the treatment of the 423 FLDS children and women?
Why concerned? | 10:34 a.m. April 10, 2008
We'll Concernced LDS, you already answered your own question. The LDS
church has already spoken on these issues. Are you looking for daily statements
to come from the church?
The Shadow Knows | 10:39 a.m. April 10, 2008
Enough clues emerged from the press conference to suggest the definite identity
of the informant. No surprises.
To Legal Beagle | 10:40 a.m. April 10, 2008
The answer is Yes.
You ignore almost everything written about this story to come to your polar opposite conclusion.
Remind me to ignore you.
You ignore almost everything written about this story to come to your polar opposite conclusion.
Remind me to ignore you.
Legal Beagle | 10:53 a.m. April 10, 2008
Fortunately most of you understood my comment opening this thread as an
observation of the legality of the police raid rather than a defense of any
behaviors taking place on that ranch. I find the behaviors deplorable, as all
of you do. Now we know that the sheriff had an informant separate from the
anonymous caller, and having a confidential informant is usually sufficient to
establish probable cause for a search warrant. that was now known this morning
when i initially posted my comment. Based on an informant AND the anonymous
complainant, the judge was likely justified in issuing the search warrant, which
of course revealed a significant number of minors who appeared to have been
sexually victimized, i.e. pregnant or had already given birth. If the FLDS were
in fact using their "temple" for illicit activity with minors under
the guise of "spiritual marriage" then the separation of women from
men effected by the raid was definitely in the interest of the safety and health
of the female victims. As for "Concerned LDS" who wonders why the LDS
Church is silent, enough people already confuse the two churches. This is their
issue alone to face.
RE: Concerned LDS | 10:55 a.m. April 10, 2008
1-The LDS church is a church! Not a bail people out religion. Please remember
that!
2-This is not a crisis where they would send aid or humanitarian service. Hurricane Katrina is where the LDS church would help.
3-Bad media towards the LDS church, duh!
4-LDS Church and polygamy-and the media is like pouring gasoline on a fire
5-Your taxes pay for foster care homes. USE THEM!
6-LDS church doesn't respond because no other church is responding-bad media-polygamy is illegal since we are dealing with kids under 18-why would we help promote illegal practices?
2-This is not a crisis where they would send aid or humanitarian service. Hurricane Katrina is where the LDS church would help.
3-Bad media towards the LDS church, duh!
4-LDS Church and polygamy-and the media is like pouring gasoline on a fire
5-Your taxes pay for foster care homes. USE THEM!
6-LDS church doesn't respond because no other church is responding-bad media-polygamy is illegal since we are dealing with kids under 18-why would we help promote illegal practices?
To Legal Beagle | 10:57 a.m. April 10, 2008
The anonymity of this complaintant is paramount! Her identity will be made
public soon enough. She is an abused minor.
Assumptions | 11:10 a.m. April 10, 2008
Many are "assuming" ALL these families are guilty of abuse. I
don't know. I'm waiting for some evidence.
Look at the pictures of the kids at play on the main page...
Do they look abused? Too me they look clean, happy, kinda normal (I know, how can that be)?
I hope they can get "legally admissable" proof of these abuse claims so we can quit judging them on rumor and assumptions and start dealing with some facts.
Look at the pictures of the kids at play on the main page...
Do they look abused? Too me they look clean, happy, kinda normal (I know, how can that be)?
I hope they can get "legally admissable" proof of these abuse claims so we can quit judging them on rumor and assumptions and start dealing with some facts.
Constance | 11:46 a.m. April 10, 2008
Legal Beagle, it has been interesting reading your point of view. There have
been many claims in this blog so far as to what has been found in YFZ ranch,
most has been speculation. Why not get the facts before coming to any
conclusions. These people may be different, does that make them bad? I have
seen numerous pictures of this raid, these children don't lood
malnourished, or abused. In fact they look like they are well taken care of.
What gives the state of Texas the right to their children if they live their
religion and are not hurting anyone else? So far they have taken this raid with
a great deal of integrity and peace. If it were you,(all of you)would you be
this peacable?
To Legal Beagle | 11:50 a.m. April 10, 2008
All of the information you purport to now be available has been available for
days.
You are behind. May I suggest you get caught up before you comment again? It would save you having to explain your odd entries.
You are behind. May I suggest you get caught up before you comment again? It would save you having to explain your odd entries.
Concerned | 11:52 a.m. April 10, 2008
I am concerned:
1. That abuse of women and children is taking place.
2. That emotions are so high that those against the FLDS Church are willing to fabricate a complaint.
3. That constitutional rights are being trampled because of righteous indignation (does the end justifies the means?).
4. That I might lose some of my rights in the process.
5. That abuse of women and children is taking place (repeated for emphasis).
6. That failure to follow the rule of law could eventually allow abusers to go unpunished.
1. That abuse of women and children is taking place.
2. That emotions are so high that those against the FLDS Church are willing to fabricate a complaint.
3. That constitutional rights are being trampled because of righteous indignation (does the end justifies the means?).
4. That I might lose some of my rights in the process.
5. That abuse of women and children is taking place (repeated for emphasis).
6. That failure to follow the rule of law could eventually allow abusers to go unpunished.
Texans get out your pocket books | 11:56 a.m. April 10, 2008
Has anyone considered how this is going to affect the citizens of Texas?
Assumptions does have a point.
Are you ready for your taxes to increase, because of assumptions and speculations?
There are roughly 650 people in that compound. They have been there for about 5 years and this is the first report of trouble. That is pretty good odds considering domestic violence cases across the country.
Assumptions does have a point.
Are you ready for your taxes to increase, because of assumptions and speculations?
There are roughly 650 people in that compound. They have been there for about 5 years and this is the first report of trouble. That is pretty good odds considering domestic violence cases across the country.
Go figure!! | 12:09 p.m. April 10, 2008
Surprise, surprise! He said he's not the guy. That's a new one on most
of us, right? We've NEVER heard that one before.
Of course he says he isn't the guy. What did we expect?? How many of these snakes actually stand up and take responsibility (for children, wives or breaking the law)? I mean even with law officials standing right there, a man (33 years old) has to tell his wife she is 18 years old!?!?!
Obviously what they say and what they do are two totally and completely different things!!!
Of course he says he isn't the guy. What did we expect?? How many of these snakes actually stand up and take responsibility (for children, wives or breaking the law)? I mean even with law officials standing right there, a man (33 years old) has to tell his wife she is 18 years old!?!?!
Obviously what they say and what they do are two totally and completely different things!!!
Big Tai | 12:31 p.m. April 10, 2008
Classic example of unprofessionalism amoung America's law enforcement.
Classic example of America�s judicial incompetence.
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