Deseret News | Utah still ranks last in student spending

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Utah still ranks last in student spending

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Bus | 12:30 p.m. April 7, 2008

The market system is at work in the public schools, that's why there were 400 unfilled slots in the teaching core. Yet in the past some teachers loved to teach and were willing to do so for minimul pay. Today they are given no respect within the system or by the parents which often means more than the money. Why don't they have any respect? Sadly in some cases they don't deserve any because they fell into teaching because they couldn't do anything else, but also because teachers are at the bottom of the economic ladder so they can be bullied by dissatisfied parents and gutless administrators who can't understand why anyone would have expectations of their child.

re YouGoFirst | 12:16 p.m | 1:21 p.m. April 7, 2008

If we are paying our teachers so much as you claim, why are we suffering from shortages and unable to attract people in grade school who can teach world class math?

Re: You Go First | 1:27 p.m. April 7, 2008

I also checked out salary.com. The numbers quoted by the website are based on the posted salary schedule in Davis District. They are not based on the actual median salary. Your numbers report would only be accurate with the assumption that every teacher were working across the salary schedule by earning a PhD. The real world doesn't work that way. Not everyone gets a doctorate degree in their field of study. The median salary is skewed by about $7,500.

Comments continue below

Legit question. | 1:33 p.m. April 7, 2008

You can say it isn't about the pay but it is.

We can't get teachers to work and stay here.

What are your solutions to that?

Don't be Snookered | 1:49 p.m. April 7, 2008

When we see statistics put out about how "much" Utah teachers make, we need to take them with a grain of salt. The Utah Taxpayers Association is dedicated to keep teacher pay low. They will continue to do so. Chances are good it is they or one of their allies who are putting out these statistics.

The market disagrees that Utah Teachers are paid enough, we are unable to attract the quality and the numbers that we need.

Utah needs to get off the bottom of the list, when it comes to funding ... Period

Average Salary? | 1:51 p.m. April 7, 2008

I agree - something's wrong with the assertion above that average Utah salary is $49k. My wife has 15 years experience and only makes $42k. Luckily for us, hers is the second income. If hers were the primary, we'd be toast!

YouGoFirst | 1:56 p.m. April 7, 2008

Um, even with the median salary skewed by $7500, you would be better off in Bountiful vs Boston. Granted not by a whole lot. However, the numbers that I quoted were for a public school teacher with 2-4 years experience with a bachelor's degree in both Bountiful (84010) and Boston (02101). The cost of living analysis was based on Salt Lake area and Boston area.

So, I wasn't claiming anything, just reporting facts.

I don't know why we are not attracting teachers, I only think that it takes more than money to improve the system. Parents, community, values, and other sources that cannot be regulated or controlled by a school district need to be included into the equaion.

Consider This | 2:01 p.m. April 7, 2008

I am an engineer, but would love to be a teacher and stay here in Utah. You say it isn't about money? Well I would be willing to give up a few dollars to trade careers, but I would have to give up more money than would be fair to my family.

You say it isn't about money? Well my kids need to go to college, get married, and I would like to be able to give them a good house in a decent neighborhood and go on vacation.

Even if I didn't have all these values, my wife would, so it is about money. Teachers need to live the same as everyone else, with a similar education investment. (college education)

Why get a four year degree and then life the rest of your life in near poverty when there are other better options out there?

Do we want want to continue to pay those who educate our kids these low wages then complain about the quality of education?

Yes education has gone downhill, but if we think we are going to fix it without paying teachers a decent wage we are misguided.

Misleading statistic | 2:07 p.m. April 7, 2008

Utah has the largest family size in the country so any statistic on a per child basis is going to come in low unless some other area is even more severly underfunded. Utah has the lowest transportation, healthcare, welfare, dental, you name it spending per pupil in the country.

More kids on the same income levels will equate to LESS per kid.

Rob | 2:05 p.m. April 7, 2008

RE: Geezer.

Then lets look at the graduation rates of Utah which is over 80% (in top five in the nation), and New York (which tops the list in spending per pupil), below 60% rate (in the bottom five in the nation). The grad rate covers both amibitious, would be college students, and those that are less ambitious. Utah still comes out ahead. Fact is, money has nothing to do with a quality education.

To Rob | 2:34 p.m. April 7, 2008

It's all about the money. You can't get people to work in Utah without paying them.

How is it not about money when we can't even fill the job openings?

You are kidding yourself.

re Misleading statistic | 2:07 | 2:32 p.m. April 7, 2008

Since we are saving so much money on everything else as you point out, then we can afford not to be dead last when it comes to education.

Quality education would benefit everyone, society, business, the kids themselves, and the state of Utah as a whole.

There is no better investment,

If we decide to invest more, competition to become a teacher will increase, the best and brightest will gravitate towards teaching, this is the way it should be.

Educational quality will increase, as will long term productivity.

If we don't do this, other societies will clean our clocks.

Vouchers are the answer | 3:35 p.m. April 7, 2008

We have a lot of children, we only have a limited amount of resources, we have a teacher shortage. Solution: provide $3,000.00 vouchers to give parent's choice, put less strain on our public education resources, and reduce the teacher shortage by taking children out of the public education system. Darn, guess we missed out on that one!!!!! Last time I checked $3000 < $5,437.

As a side note. I think we should measure our State's effort to support education by looking at the percentage of total taxes dedicated to education. Utah ranks right up at the top when you look at the piece of the total pie going to education. Do we want to shut down all road construction, health and employment programs to fund education? Until we are willing to look at scary, unconventional solutions to educating our children I don't want to hear any more bellyaching!!

Wondering | 3:48 p.m. April 7, 2008

Where, specifically, are these "400 job openings". I know an experienced, documented, and respected teacher who dearly wants to work in Utah (as a teacher- gladly at the current pay), has repeated submitted her paperwork to Utah districts, and has yet to get any substantially positive response. Lip service, yes,(highly qualified, would love to have you) but no follow-thru.

Wondering | 3:53 p.m. April 7, 2008

Perhaps the demands on the school system of trying to educate a never-ending uncontrolled stream of resource sapping undocumented foreign nationals, is also a significant strain on our educational economy. Perhaps Utah should move forward and follow Oklahoma's lead - eliminate such perks/incentives for such undocumented law breakers. I'll bet Utah's ability to adjust the per pupil spending level increases significantly.

Republican Patriot | 4:01 p.m. April 7, 2008

I am laughing at the people saying it isn't about money.

WE CAN'T GET PEOPLE TO TAKE THE JOB OF A TEACHER!!!!

Please explain how that isn't about money!!!!??????

When no one will take the job there are only two solutions in this great country...

Bring in an illegal to do it or pay the American worker more.

Happy in the Midwest | 4:02 p.m. April 7, 2008

I agree that it takes more than money to run a quality education system. However, resources are a big part of the equation. I grew up and was educated in Utah but have sinced moved away. I have lived in two other states, one on the East Coast and the other in the Midwest. If I owned the same home in Utah (size, location, quality, etc.) as I have in both of the other states I've lived in, I would pay around $2,000 a year in property taxes. I now pay close to $8,000 a year. I am willing to pay the higher property taxes because I know I am directly benefitting the public schools. Even with strong family values, Utah's schools will never be what they could without resources. You get what you pay for and you have to be willing to pay the price. I would love to move my family back to Utah but I am concerned about the unwillingness of the residents to adequately fund public education. Utah should be leading the nation in education. I am sorry to say that I believe the worse is yet to come if you don't start funding education.

Can't fool Me | 4:11 p.m. April 7, 2008

I've said it many times, make the school districts accountable for what they spend, it's NOT the Principles, it's NOT the Teachers that spend too much. It's the School Districts waste of money that takes away from the students and teachers. Until they can downsize nothing positive will ever happen. The only thing that will be constant is the demand to have more money for students and trying to be like DC or New York.

Yuck!

An Honest Athlete | 4:09 p.m. April 7, 2008

The only time I considered steroid use was was after my athletic days were over and congress unintentionally made the point with their hearings how the best became better with them. While it scares me to admit it, I would have done them to put me over the top had I had access and knowledge about them.

I am just glad I had no one who recommended them and coaches in High School and College who were very vocal about not using anything that could get us banned or damage our bodies.

Willie | 4:23 p.m. April 7, 2008

lowest in spending per child.

Highest in production of children.

If you can't afford them without welfare, don't have them. Yes, you are receiving welfare through tax deductions.

Vouchers??? another source of welfare.

Good Publicans are supposed to be against welfare.

Dreaming of 23 | 4:24 p.m. April 7, 2008

I dream about having "only" 23 students per class. This year, my smallest class has 37 and my largest has 40. With a very small classroom (space wise), 36 student desks, and 36 textbooks it is very interesting when every student shows up. In several of my classes, I have one or two students sitting at my teacher desk.

We were promised by Morley, Ferrin, Way, etc. that with the opening of local Charter Schools our class sizes would go down. Wrong! Mine have gone up by 3 or 4 per class. Thank goodness the great citizens of Utah didn't fall for the lies of the Oreo Cookie pro-voucher commercial. I would be teaching classes of 45!

willie | 4:49 p.m. April 7, 2008

you go first.... how do you explain the difference in education levels between Boston and SLC?

Massachusetts has one of the highest educational levels in the country.

I think it is still a problem of people having more kids than they can afford, either in time or money.

Learn em cheap, stack em deep.

Interested Parent | 4:56 p.m. April 7, 2008

The Deseret News and the State Dept. of Education need to tell the whole story. Yes we spend less per student but we also spend a greater percentage of our taxes on education. There is no equal sign between per pupil spending and a good education. The real answer isn't spending more money but better parental involvement in their children's education. If a child is held accountable to actually attend school, to do their homework and to actually read rather than watch TV or play video games then the child will be successful at school. Of course that would require parents to actually take an active role in their children's life, which means that they would have to turn off the TV and Internet and pay attention to their children. We will reap what we have sewed; parents need to be involved in the lives of their children.

Chiming In. | 5:31 p.m. April 7, 2008

There the DMN goes again. I post something that they feel is just too much for lilly white sensitive ears. Their censor software must have the term HeadTax on the censor list, because that's what I posted on, and well... it didn't get onto this forum. Again, shame on you DMN!

When are you going to let truth, reality and uncomfortable issues be aired, especially when they were not abusive, offensive, off topic or misrepresentative of the issue being discussed here?

Now that I've gotten in posted onto this discussion, what do ya all think of a fair and fiscally responsible headtax? This is of course targeted to all you neocon ultratightwad fiscal conservatives out there... who just happen to have the largestfamily sizes in the State of Utah!

bhparkman | 5:45 p.m. April 7, 2008

Teachers get plenty of compensation; just not in money. Combine the benefits packages, the protection from prosecution for affairs with students, the retirement funds, the numerous awards from multiple societies, the fundraisers going to pay their outings - there is no end to the actual compensation teachers get.

The State and Unions stealing money through taxes and dues, and the lack of parents removing their children from these schools is the problem. The state and feds must recognize the household's sovereignty and the institution of the family.

Families educate their own children one way or another. Utah doesn't need a public education system based on socialism and theft.

Nailed on the head! | 5:42 p.m. April 7, 2008

Utah has a factor that no other state has when it comes to dealing with funding education and getting our dollars worth out of the money spent. No other state deals with this factor to the level Utah does. No other states legislature has to juggle this factor to the degree Utah does. And this single factor alone means Utah needs different solutions, effective solutions, to pull it off.

That unique factor is KIDS! Now for Utah that's a codeword meaning 'The highest population growth per capita in the nation, and growing like a run-a-way freight train about to hit a 90 degree curve ant full speed.'

That's the factor that must be factored into this discussion, like it or not!

Science Teacher | 6:01 p.m. April 7, 2008

It's a simple ECON 101 situation. If you don't pay teachers more, they will leave.

Down 400 teachers last year doesn't mean that there are 400 classes with no teacher standing in front. It usually means that those kids are split up amongst the rest of the teachers.

Thus, my class jumps up 1-3 kids from the previous year. My workload increases and your kids see me less. I can't talk to them, can't answer their questions, and don't have time to even circulate around to see how they're doing. I know some teachers that still haven't learned all their kids' names. It's hard when you have 160-180 every year.

Keep it up, Utah. Soon we'll have an average of 40 per class and scores will nose-dive.

leroy | 6:08 p.m. April 7, 2008

Last and darn well proud of it.

could be a great bumper sticker, no?

Fred | 6:16 p.m. April 7, 2008

Some of you people are really funny. The education system is being held together by a thread. If you look at the number of years of service for teachers in any given district you will find a common trend. over 60% of the teachers have less than three years of experience, or more than twenty. Over half of those teachers with three or less years will leave the profession or the state before their 5th year of teaching. In the next 5-10 years there will be a large number of teachers retiring. By then my kids will be out of the system who will be left to teach yours? To say that money doesn't make a difference in the quality of education is to deny reality. If Utahn's don't wise up quickly, the whole system will come crashing down. How many businesses that would bring good paying jobs have chosen to locate somewhere other than Utah because of the lack of commitment to education? Wake up before it is to late.

I know 2 teachers | 6:30 p.m. April 7, 2008

who both are single, live in the Salt Lake metro area, both own homes, the both make 49,000+, neither of them have been teaching for more than 15 years. They get a ton of time off work. I don't see how this so bad. They aren't living in poverty as many of the teachers on this board would have you believe they are.

Anonymous | 6:41 p.m. April 7, 2008

My thoughts are that there are many things that are needing attention in our schools. I have 2 children on the SL school dist. and when I spoke to the princaple she said there is student to adult ratio of about 100:1 at recess. Now how is that safe? I have seem teachers come and go more often the seems appropriate. And what does the percent of the population have to do with the dollar amount spent on children? Our princaple refered to the school as a business, and had the attitude that she isn't responsible for what goes on in the school. Well if it is looked at as a business then the leader I'm charge is ultimatly responsible for the events in that school. I wish more of my tax dollars would go to the school system instead of new cars for government employees every year which are usualy abused anyway.

Anonymous | 6:44 p.m. April 7, 2008

Any culture that ignores the future of its own children (last in educational spending) is a doomed culture.

St. George Resident | 7:09 p.m. April 7, 2008

What do you expect when you dilute the budget with 150,000 illegal hispanic students... who's parents pay little or no income tax or property tax.

Families | 7:21 p.m. April 7, 2008

Yes, it is the families in Utah! I hope that all states in the nation can take a look at how Utah performs so well while spending so little per child. I'm for compensating teachers fairly, but the evidence seems to suggest that the parents and families are the greatest influence on student success.

Solution | 7:34 p.m. April 7, 2008

The solution isn't more money, it's less students. Enforce the laws, remove illegal immigrant students, and the situation will significantly improve.

To: YouGoFirst | 7:54 p.m. April 7, 2008

You are assuming that teachers who teach in Boston, live in Boston. I know several teachers who teach in Boston, but can't afford to live in Boston. The world isn't as black and white as you make it sound. I say give the teachers disposable income. Who are you to say who can and cannot have a disposable income. Teaching our children is priceless, and we should be willing to pay what it takes to get the best to teach our kids. I knew that many Utah folks were coupon clipping people, but subjecting our children to the lowest bidder is a downright shame. Raise your kids first, and then buy your expensive toys when they are out of the house. Investing in your child's future is your foremost priority, not complaining about the $49,000 a teacher of 20 years is making. My doctor, dentist, lawyer, insurance agent, and plumber make a lot more than that, and all I can remember from them is a lot of pain, discomfort, and bad smells.

Dh | 9:11 p.m. April 7, 2008

Utah will always be last. We have TOO MANY KIDS to educate. There is only so much money to spend. There must be limits to how much we are taxed.

Beef Stew | 9:26 p.m. April 7, 2008

To Leroy:

LOL. Make that: "Last and darn prowd of it."

Last in funding 9th academic | 10:17 p.m. April 7, 2008

Funny that the first 2/3rds of the article bemoan how poorly funded Utah education is and then it suddenly proclaims that Utah is 9th academically. Seems like they must be doing something extremely right in order to be $1000 per student behind the next lowest state Idaho and yet 9th in the nation overall. Guess the "correlation" between funding and achievement isn't direct...

Prosecutor | 10:55 p.m. April 7, 2008

Yeah, let's rush to make our schools more like New York's! Or maybe Detroit's or Cleveland's.

Teacher's union bombast aside -- we are clearly paying enough for education in this state. The tests don't lie. The dirty little secret teacher's unions want to hide is this: The amount of money spent on schools has no demonstrable effect on the education a child receives.

Why can't teacher's unions just come out and say they want to hold us up for more money? We'd still say no, but then, at least the discussion would be honest. It's not about the kids, it's about the educators.

Just wait.... | 10:56 p.m. April 7, 2008

The fact is all of the states have had a shortage of teachers the last decade. Utah teachers are not leaving for other states, teachers have been leaving for other vocations - everywhere. Those who keep saying teachers are leaving for other states are just plain wrong.

However, the good years in other lines of business are about to dry up. By this time next year there will be a surplus of teacher candidates as they all come flocking back to 'secure' government employment. Cycles happen, this one is just turning the down now. Before you know it there will be thousands willing to teach in Utah at our natinally -average- teacher salaries.

Observer | 11:19 p.m. April 7, 2008

People in Utah love to have lots of kids, and hate to pay for their education.

YouGoFirst | 8:51 a.m. April 8, 2008

I do have a solution that could help take care of the lack of teachers, and it doesn't involve increasing teacher salaries. If you are a stay at home parent, retired, or about to retire, apply with the state to join the Alternative License Path for teachers. If you are a parent, and your youngest is in school, just think how involved in their education you can be if you taught at their school. If your big concern is for the math education, then do what you need to do so that you have a math endorsment. The great thing is if you have kids in school, you would have all of the same days off. Also, it would be good for the environment because you only make round trip to school each day, instead of 2.

Rules for stats 101 | 2:00 p.m. April 8, 2008

Earlier I mentioned the costs of doing business is substantially higher in places like CA/NY/NJ/MA etc. than it would be in UT. So the cost of doing business is goint to be higher in those places and we haven't even touched teachers pay.

If UT has a lower cost of housing, they can have lower costs per student on basic business infrastructure and can also pay less to teachers who won't have to pay as much for a house.

My sister's Draper house (6,200 sf on 1/4 Ac lot) is on the market for $475k. This would make the house payment per month around $2,850. Our neighbors 4,650 sf house on 1/2 Acre in Oxnard CA is on the market for $2.2 million making the payment for that house would be $13,200 a month. So for 75% the house in Oxnard CA one would have to pay 450% more dollars a month to live there. The same holds true for the schools.

Therefore, the cost per student analysis does not account for the market variances and is therefore a very weak way to analyze resource to benefits.

2 + 2 =? | 2:00 p.m. April 9, 2008

Just a few observations from reading the comments:

1. Some discount the success of the student because it doesn't fit into their paradigm of success which is a student can't do well unless there is a lot of money spent on them.

2. Some think the increase in student spending should all be spent to increase teacher salaries. My experience has been that just because I give someone a raise doesn't mean they become that more productive.

3. Some say we are already getting a bang for our buck. Results seems to bear this out.

4. Many say that those getting the good scores are the over achievers an we shouldn't count them. Based on that rationale, we shouldn't count the underachievers either.

Teachers know what they are getting into when they went to college for their chosen profession and then once there, they complain about pay, hours etc. Welcome to the real world. Many other professions have self complaints. What makes your cry special?

Spending money to just spend money will never improve or solve anything. Look at the money spent on AIDS education yet the number of new cases is rising.

utah tax payer | 6:43 a.m. April 10, 2008

Good! no more taxes, no more raises. We need to cut every tax funded organization without exception. Education needs to be the first.

Taxes for education | 7:21 p.m. April 10, 2008

Education is financed by taxes. People don't want to see taxes increase because it puts a financial strain on their income. Teachers will always have that working against them. As for taxes paid by illegal immigrants, there is a great article about this topic on msnbc today but I can't post the URL. One of the comments in the article states: "a majority of economists agree that illegal immigrants are a net benefit for the U.S. economy." These same illegal immigrants are helping fund our students' education.

deadikation | 1:18 p.m. April 14, 2008

Yer skool teechers donnt need mor money jest a pat on there bak!

JJ Crest | 1:55 p.m. April 23, 2008

Give teachers more money, give teachers more money, you say. Yes, I agree, the teachers need to be paid more. But all those salary figures need to include also the money spent on teacher benefits. How much do teachers pay out of that salary figure for health insurance I ask? Not much. They just get it. Full 100%. Our family spends thousands of dollars on health insurance yearly. Teachers just get that benefit and not pay for it out of their pockets. The amount government spends on teachers health insurance and other benefits is part of teacher pay. So in reality teachers get more than being quoted if include all the benefits.
The teachers actual salary is not very big, I agree. But the benefits might be worth working for, which is why so many of the teachers stick it out, especially those close to retirement. How many of regular Americans have guaranteed employment with benefits guaranteed for life. I say guaranteed, because the whole public school system is set up in such a way that it is impossible to get rid of a teacher because of all the union protection,
to be continued...

To: JJ Crest | 10:08 a.m. May 2, 2008

I'm an 11th year teacher in the Granite School District. JJ Crest states that teachers just get insurance handed to them - 100%. Well, JJ, I have $134 per month deducted for medical, $43 per month for dental, and no vision insurance for myself, wife and two kids. In addition to this we have a $1000 per person and $2500 per family (out of pocket deductable!). So, my FULL 100%, just handed to me, insurance cost me aprox. $3700 last year alone. AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO ASSERT "They just get it. Full 100%"??????

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