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Mountain Meadows meetings in Arkansas
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Silence is not golden | 1:21 p.m. March 27, 2008
What history books do you guys read? Rumors existed there may have been a few
of the Fancher party who participated in prior attacks on Mormon settlers,
including Parley P. Pratt (killed in Arkansas by the husband of one of his
plural wives), but any involvement by the Fancher party was complete
speculation. The victim�s bear no responsibility for this
horrible act.
As a life long LDS member, I will be glad when leaders openly address all aspects of church history, good and bad, rather than stay silent or leave history to the armchair apologists. I grew up hearing stories of Haun�s Mill, but knew nothing about Mountain Meadows until I took a church history class at BYU (1970's). Even then, the instructor spent 10 minutes on it, making very sure BYoung was absolved of any complicity, and then refused to lecture on the subject any further. The room was filled with stunned LDS students who had never heard of this terrible chapter in our history. I applaud any attempt to engage in an honest and open dialogue. Too many good LDS members have left because they are confused by the past policy of silence on church historical issues.
As a life long LDS member, I will be glad when leaders openly address all aspects of church history, good and bad, rather than stay silent or leave history to the armchair apologists. I grew up hearing stories of Haun�s Mill, but knew nothing about Mountain Meadows until I took a church history class at BYU (1970's). Even then, the instructor spent 10 minutes on it, making very sure BYoung was absolved of any complicity, and then refused to lecture on the subject any further. The room was filled with stunned LDS students who had never heard of this terrible chapter in our history. I applaud any attempt to engage in an honest and open dialogue. Too many good LDS members have left because they are confused by the past policy of silence on church historical issues.
Anonymous | 1:26 p.m. March 27, 2008
Just more evidence that there will never be civility
between the two parties.
What a world!
between the two parties.
What a world!
Comments continue below
The Truth | 1:34 p.m. March 27, 2008
of what fully happened there will never be known. What we do know is there was
a coverup. I in no way believe BY was party to the deed, and any attempts to
paint him as directing MMM are ludicrus at best, but he did participate in the
coverup. He probably felt somewhat responsible for putting these people out in
such a desolate land, driving them crazy.
There were many lies started at the site, and many LDS unknowingly perpetuate them even today. I used to till I learned more. But the truth is it was a very few Indians who were forced participants, and not the other way around. These people were from Arkansas, not Missouri, and had absolutely nothing to do with atrocities against LDS people. And they were not going around poisoning Indian watering holes. As far as we now know, the Arkansas wagon train did absolutely nothing to provoke the attack.
MMM is too complex to discuss in 200 words.
There were many lies started at the site, and many LDS unknowingly perpetuate them even today. I used to till I learned more. But the truth is it was a very few Indians who were forced participants, and not the other way around. These people were from Arkansas, not Missouri, and had absolutely nothing to do with atrocities against LDS people. And they were not going around poisoning Indian watering holes. As far as we now know, the Arkansas wagon train did absolutely nothing to provoke the attack.
MMM is too complex to discuss in 200 words.
Confused | 1:33 p.m. March 27, 2008
Here's the Facts"
Your facts about Op Rockewell are so off base, it's funny.
OP Rockwell did not become the fierce and ornary persona until he was attacked at the big blue river (after Haun's Mill).
OP was a pretty low keyed person up until that time. It was the phyiscal beating of OP that changed his persona.
If you read the book by Harold Schilder(sp?) who is NOT LDS. He details and debunks your theory with actual facts.
Hauns Mill was caused without provocation by the Missouri Milita. Haun, had a agreement with the Local Missourians that his settlement would not be attacked. This Militia ignored the agreement and the rest is history.
The bottom line is that the Missourians who perpatrated this and other incidents wanted the land that the saints had built up. Anyone who studies the mentality of the time frame under stands this.
Your facts about Op Rockewell are so off base, it's funny.
OP Rockwell did not become the fierce and ornary persona until he was attacked at the big blue river (after Haun's Mill).
OP was a pretty low keyed person up until that time. It was the phyiscal beating of OP that changed his persona.
If you read the book by Harold Schilder(sp?) who is NOT LDS. He details and debunks your theory with actual facts.
Hauns Mill was caused without provocation by the Missouri Milita. Haun, had a agreement with the Local Missourians that his settlement would not be attacked. This Militia ignored the agreement and the rest is history.
The bottom line is that the Missourians who perpatrated this and other incidents wanted the land that the saints had built up. Anyone who studies the mentality of the time frame under stands this.
The Truth cont. | 1:40 p.m. March 27, 2008
I will say this. Our (the LDS church) ownership of the MMM memorial is aiken to
the fox guarding the hen house. We were the perpetrators of the crime. I
understand the Church's vested interest in wanting to ensure the other
extreme version of events is not told (the one that manages to implicate every
last Mormon there ever was), but seriously; It'd be like if Charles
Manson's ancestors ran a memorial for all of his victims. Granted, his
ancestors might be good people, but you'd never want them running the
memorial.
SL Cabbie | 1:38 p.m. March 27, 2008
I've been privileged to be friends with Will Bagley, and I'm afraid
facts he's shared with me about Mountain Meadows and other events in Mormon
history have pretty much paved my parking place in Outer Darkness.
I offer these to "Confused," with the suggestion some legitimate research might lead to a change of monikers.
Confused notes, "Yes, some misguided Mormons did something both Wrong and Stupid."
I fin this spinmeistering is minimizing a great evil. Moreover, it's clear BY covered up their misdeeds, and G.A. Smith stirred up religious fanaticism leading otherwise decent people to participate in the monstrous atrocity.
And I note--source Dudley Leavitt, a participant and an ancestor of the former Utah governor--BY led a party to the site some years afterward, saw the crude rock memorial, raised his arm to the square, and watched approvingly as his followers tore it down.
Not exactly the actions of a remorseful soul . . .
Finally, Mormons have been raised with the mythology of Fancher provocations which Bagley proves to be nonsense . . .
This is similar to the myth involving Mormon innocence at Haun's Mill; Google "Battle of Crooked River" if you doubt me on this one.
I offer these to "Confused," with the suggestion some legitimate research might lead to a change of monikers.
Confused notes, "Yes, some misguided Mormons did something both Wrong and Stupid."
I fin this spinmeistering is minimizing a great evil. Moreover, it's clear BY covered up their misdeeds, and G.A. Smith stirred up religious fanaticism leading otherwise decent people to participate in the monstrous atrocity.
And I note--source Dudley Leavitt, a participant and an ancestor of the former Utah governor--BY led a party to the site some years afterward, saw the crude rock memorial, raised his arm to the square, and watched approvingly as his followers tore it down.
Not exactly the actions of a remorseful soul . . .
Finally, Mormons have been raised with the mythology of Fancher provocations which Bagley proves to be nonsense . . .
This is similar to the myth involving Mormon innocence at Haun's Mill; Google "Battle of Crooked River" if you doubt me on this one.
Jamie | 1:43 p.m. March 27, 2008
I notice for some reason all the history on the Arkansas pioneers who taunted
and made threats at th Mormons, is not being spoke of on here??? That was the
reason for the Massacre. At least this is what I learned while going to school
in Washington.
an exmormon's view | 1:53 p.m. March 27, 2008
In the recent Sept. ed. Ensign article the church sheds some light on a few
interesting things. Notice that those who were involeved in the killings,
specifically the the stake presidents, felt justified in their actions. They
felt as though Young would support there actions, why is this? Here is an
excerpt:
�In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements,� Young continued, �we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them.
Notice 2 things here. First Young states we must not interfere with them "UNTIL". Does that hint at maybe they were talking about "interfering" with immigrants but the time wasn't right. 2nd, is that he basically says the Indians will have there way with them. Wait a minute didn't the leaders of the LDS church plan to use the Indians to do their dirty deeds? Do you suppose the leaders in southern Utah included information about using the Indians as scape goats in the massacre. Is that why Young mentions, the "Indians will do as they please"?
�In regard to emigration trains passing through our settlements,� Young continued, �we must not interfere with them until they are first notified to keep away. You must not meddle with them. The Indians we expect will do as they please but you should try and preserve good feelings with them.
Notice 2 things here. First Young states we must not interfere with them "UNTIL". Does that hint at maybe they were talking about "interfering" with immigrants but the time wasn't right. 2nd, is that he basically says the Indians will have there way with them. Wait a minute didn't the leaders of the LDS church plan to use the Indians to do their dirty deeds? Do you suppose the leaders in southern Utah included information about using the Indians as scape goats in the massacre. Is that why Young mentions, the "Indians will do as they please"?
magnus | 1:56 p.m. March 27, 2008
To those of you who insist the Mormons who commited this crime (or all Mormons
because of this crime) as "frenzied, fanatical, and self-justified"...
And to mormons who insist doing the same with the mobs that drove them from their homes, calling them barbaric lawless monsters...
I wonder...do any of us know what it is like to live in fear that someone could come to your house and take everything you have or kill you or your family and there would be nothing you could do about it? Or worse, do you know what it is like to have it actually happen, and live in fear that it will happen again?
As educated people living comfort and safety we like to look back on mistakes our predecessors have made and say things like "only a monster or a crazy person could do such a thing". How would you know? Sure you can read the stories and study the facts, but can you feel the fear and pain, or smell the burning...
Truth is, most of us are a little bit of fear and a few bad choices away from the thing we claim we could never be.
And to mormons who insist doing the same with the mobs that drove them from their homes, calling them barbaric lawless monsters...
I wonder...do any of us know what it is like to live in fear that someone could come to your house and take everything you have or kill you or your family and there would be nothing you could do about it? Or worse, do you know what it is like to have it actually happen, and live in fear that it will happen again?
As educated people living comfort and safety we like to look back on mistakes our predecessors have made and say things like "only a monster or a crazy person could do such a thing". How would you know? Sure you can read the stories and study the facts, but can you feel the fear and pain, or smell the burning...
Truth is, most of us are a little bit of fear and a few bad choices away from the thing we claim we could never be.
Linda | 1:59 p.m. March 27, 2008
I meant to look for the website Mountain Meadows Massacre by-Frank Kirkman. He
is not a direct descendant of the group, but has an very angry website. I
don't see peace for the LDS church in what he writes.
Re: magnus | 2:29 p.m. March 27, 2008
Any history that Brigham Young would have on himself would have been written
after the fact, to cover his hide. Lets think how he would of thought. Huuumm?
not so hard.
Jaye | 2:30 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:What the...religious people also burned thousands of innocent men and women
and young girls at the stake on charges of heresy and witchcraft, throughout
Europe, and also here in the New World.
Religious people slaughtered other religious people wholesale during the Crusades, religious
Christian factions murdered each other in the name of the same Christ...and religious factions still kill other people in the name of Jesus Christ.
And religious people are currently strapping explosives to young men, women, teenagers, children and developmentally disabled individuals and detonating them in crowded market places.
Religious people slaughtered other religious people wholesale during the Crusades, religious
Christian factions murdered each other in the name of the same Christ...and religious factions still kill other people in the name of Jesus Christ.
And religious people are currently strapping explosives to young men, women, teenagers, children and developmentally disabled individuals and detonating them in crowded market places.
Anonymous | 2:37 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:CougarKeith...certainly there were children spared...only those who were too
young to be able to report what had happened.
As far as any water sources being poisoned by the Fancher train...this is only rumor and not verifiable by fact.
But the LDS Church has always admitted that poisoning water sources was one of THEIR methods.
As far as any water sources being poisoned by the Fancher train...this is only rumor and not verifiable by fact.
But the LDS Church has always admitted that poisoning water sources was one of THEIR methods.
To: Here's the Facts | 2:45 p.m. March 27, 2008
Rockwell was the reason for Hauns Mill?
You believe in the tooth fairy too.
240 armed men against approximately 18 people and you blame Porter? I think he was onto something. More power to Porter. We needed more people like him, no one else came to our aid.
You believe in the tooth fairy too.
240 armed men against approximately 18 people and you blame Porter? I think he was onto something. More power to Porter. We needed more people like him, no one else came to our aid.
Bill | 2:46 p.m. March 27, 2008
No amount of apologizing will ever satisfy those who demand apologies ad
infinitum. They're sick on their own narcissic dreams
Jaye | 2:55 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re: Jamie...did you also learn in school about how the Fancher train had camped
peaceably, and without incident outside of SLC for almost a week while waiting
for stragglers to catch up? That they bought supplies in SLC without incident
before continuing their journey?
That Brigham Young had already alerted and activated the County Militias with his suspicions of Gentile invasion and attack... and instructed Mormon settlements not to sell or trade with Gentile settlers, and he did this AFTER the Fancher train left SLC valley? That they had no way of knowing they wouldn't be able to purchase or trade for much needed supplies before crossing the Rocky Mountains?
Sorry Jamie...but the rumors that the emigrants taunted the Mormon settlers are unfounded and not verifiable. They are nothing but rumors.
That Brigham Young had already alerted and activated the County Militias with his suspicions of Gentile invasion and attack... and instructed Mormon settlements not to sell or trade with Gentile settlers, and he did this AFTER the Fancher train left SLC valley? That they had no way of knowing they wouldn't be able to purchase or trade for much needed supplies before crossing the Rocky Mountains?
Sorry Jamie...but the rumors that the emigrants taunted the Mormon settlers are unfounded and not verifiable. They are nothing but rumors.
to exmormon's view | 3:05 p.m. March 27, 2008
There's a big difference between interfering with a wagon train's
forward progress, and killing everyone over the age of seven.
At the time of MMM, the US government was getting ready to declare war on Utah. Young did instruct interference with wagon trains, as some could've been spies for the US government. In recorded fact, he did encourage the local Indians to steal their cattle, as a means of discouraging innocent wagon trains from passing through. Would make it easier to spot the ones that intend harm.
The motive for MMM is that while interfering with the Arkansas wagon train (force helping a few reluctant Indians steal cattle), the Mormon leaders involved were spotted. After a harried deliberation, their solution was to kill anyone who could witness against them; but children younger than eight are pure before God, so couldn't kill them.
How that many people went along with the plan, I'll never know, nor understand. How half of them didn't commit suicide over the guilt, I'll never know. It was an atrocious crime, one that because of the coverup deserves to finally come to light.
At the time of MMM, the US government was getting ready to declare war on Utah. Young did instruct interference with wagon trains, as some could've been spies for the US government. In recorded fact, he did encourage the local Indians to steal their cattle, as a means of discouraging innocent wagon trains from passing through. Would make it easier to spot the ones that intend harm.
The motive for MMM is that while interfering with the Arkansas wagon train (force helping a few reluctant Indians steal cattle), the Mormon leaders involved were spotted. After a harried deliberation, their solution was to kill anyone who could witness against them; but children younger than eight are pure before God, so couldn't kill them.
How that many people went along with the plan, I'll never know, nor understand. How half of them didn't commit suicide over the guilt, I'll never know. It was an atrocious crime, one that because of the coverup deserves to finally come to light.
Mark | 3:08 p.m. March 27, 2008
For those who don't believe that events in the 19th century have an impact
today, then you are claiming that history has no purpose.
The real issue with the Mountain Meadows Massacre is that Mormons can't put it to rest. Like polygamy, it keeps creeping back like a bad nightmare. Denial and justification will not work. It will only be put to rest when we take the lessons that can be learned from the event and weave it into our religious narrative. Establishing a monument may help us deal with this in a positive light.
The real issue with the Mountain Meadows Massacre is that Mormons can't put it to rest. Like polygamy, it keeps creeping back like a bad nightmare. Denial and justification will not work. It will only be put to rest when we take the lessons that can be learned from the event and weave it into our religious narrative. Establishing a monument may help us deal with this in a positive light.
Jaye | 3:09 p.m. March 27, 2008
According to Sally Denton, an investigative reporter who delves into the hidden
history of the West, the Fancher Train was quite wealthy.
They owned, between them, a thousand head of prize beef cattle and dairy cows, and a herd of prize thoroughbred horses from Kentucky.
They carried as much as $100.000 in gold coins and other currency. They were armed with quality weapons, mostly Kentucky muzzle-loaders, and a stockpile of expensive ammunition.
They also had 3 fine carriages in which the women usually rode.
The estimated value of the train above and beyond the money and gold they carried, was about $70,000.00.
Now why do you think these people were murdered? What became of the gold, the currency, the prize cattle and horses? The weapons and ammunition? The wagons and teams and carriages? All their belongings which were carried in the wagons?
Google Sally Denton. Google Frank Kirkman's Mountain Meadows Massacre site.
Learn about how the Mormons were instructed to deny these settlers the supplies they sought to purchase.
This is something that goes against what the Lord instructed of His true followers.
They owned, between them, a thousand head of prize beef cattle and dairy cows, and a herd of prize thoroughbred horses from Kentucky.
They carried as much as $100.000 in gold coins and other currency. They were armed with quality weapons, mostly Kentucky muzzle-loaders, and a stockpile of expensive ammunition.
They also had 3 fine carriages in which the women usually rode.
The estimated value of the train above and beyond the money and gold they carried, was about $70,000.00.
Now why do you think these people were murdered? What became of the gold, the currency, the prize cattle and horses? The weapons and ammunition? The wagons and teams and carriages? All their belongings which were carried in the wagons?
Google Sally Denton. Google Frank Kirkman's Mountain Meadows Massacre site.
Learn about how the Mormons were instructed to deny these settlers the supplies they sought to purchase.
This is something that goes against what the Lord instructed of His true followers.
RE: Linda | 3:15 p.m. March 27, 2008
I read that site you wrote about on here. Looks like an angry man trying to
start another mobbing on the Mormons. This F. K. looks like he is looking for
blood, and he isn't even a descendant of the massacred group...he's
definitely a wild and strange character. I wonder why he is so filled with hate
for Mormon's when the church hasn't done anything personally to him? A
true Odd-Ball!
Simon Says | 3:16 p.m. March 27, 2008
To "Hunt Them Down" - grow up bud! That is absolutely ridiculous, and
I am embarrassed for you for even making such an idiotic statement. Some
fanatical LDS leaders living under fear make the dumbest move ever and the
entire LDS church is to blame? It's like saying all Muslims are evil
because a small group of Radicals blow themselves up in the name Allah.
Goodness me, but you are childish and absolutely ignorant. MMM was a terrible
and an unnacceptable event, but that was ages ago. I think that the problem
with the world and people today is that we hang onto these terrible things that
happen and we let them rule our lives. Move on - you weren't there,
neither were any of us - anscestors on either side or not!!!!
Confused | 3:12 p.m. March 27, 2008
Anonymous:
You are correct about the Wildcats that WAS part of the party had already left.
Now you mentioned the gold. I have no clue what happened to it, my guess the raiding party of mormons took it.
But let's get a little historical here:
Johnson Army was coming to Utah, Brigham Young issued a proclaimation that Members needs to store up supplies just in case they need to flee, These immigrants as the came down the trial could not buy supplies that they needed to cross the deseret because of the mandate of Brigham Young. They were upset, they started making accusation and claims about being in Missouri (I guess to get back at the Mormons, it backed fired)at the time of the mobs.
This is not as clear cut as some people think it is.
You are correct about the Wildcats that WAS part of the party had already left.
Now you mentioned the gold. I have no clue what happened to it, my guess the raiding party of mormons took it.
But let's get a little historical here:
Johnson Army was coming to Utah, Brigham Young issued a proclaimation that Members needs to store up supplies just in case they need to flee, These immigrants as the came down the trial could not buy supplies that they needed to cross the deseret because of the mandate of Brigham Young. They were upset, they started making accusation and claims about being in Missouri (I guess to get back at the Mormons, it backed fired)at the time of the mobs.
This is not as clear cut as some people think it is.
Big Al | 3:18 p.m. March 27, 2008
There will always be those who choose to hate. There will always be those who
look to past wrongs to try to criticize those in the present.
You believe what you have heard (or looked up on some anti-Mormon website) and try to use it to bash the 'Mormons' because you like to hate the present day Mormons.
Regardless of YOUR version of MMM, the LDS church of the present has taken it upon themselves to lead the greatest non-government humanitarian effort world-wide in the history of the world. Whenever there is a natural disaster, the LDS church is among the first with donations and help. Many members of the church spend countless hours in humanitarian efforts each year.
You may have been offended by one of these people, so in order to justify your hatred of one, you attack all.
I find it quite enlightening that the haters have to go back as far as MMM to find substance for their hatred.
The LDS church and people of today will continue their efforts to spread peace and comfort around the world, even while their detractors find ways to hate them.
You believe what you have heard (or looked up on some anti-Mormon website) and try to use it to bash the 'Mormons' because you like to hate the present day Mormons.
Regardless of YOUR version of MMM, the LDS church of the present has taken it upon themselves to lead the greatest non-government humanitarian effort world-wide in the history of the world. Whenever there is a natural disaster, the LDS church is among the first with donations and help. Many members of the church spend countless hours in humanitarian efforts each year.
You may have been offended by one of these people, so in order to justify your hatred of one, you attack all.
I find it quite enlightening that the haters have to go back as far as MMM to find substance for their hatred.
The LDS church and people of today will continue their efforts to spread peace and comfort around the world, even while their detractors find ways to hate them.
Ernest T. Bass | 3:17 p.m. March 27, 2008
The Fancher party DID NOT poisen fresh water springs.
The Fancher party HAD NOTHING to do with Hahns Mill.
The Fancer party WERE THE VICTIMS!
Why does the Church want to consecrate the sites of the Wiley and Martin handcart companies in Wyoming, yet have been very disrespectful of MM?
The Fancher party HAD NOTHING to do with Hahns Mill.
The Fancer party WERE THE VICTIMS!
Why does the Church want to consecrate the sites of the Wiley and Martin handcart companies in Wyoming, yet have been very disrespectful of MM?
I'm tired | 3:26 p.m. March 27, 2008
I'm sick of us LDS who seek to excuse MMM as if it was justified by
taunting (which it wasn't), or okay because the Catholic Church is
responsible for the Inquisition (which I believe they have apologized for). How
would taunting justify murder, and how in any person's mind would
kidnapping children excuse the murder of their parents.
"It's okay I killed your mom and dad. I'm kidnapping you"
I realize most of you LDS who are defending the defenseless are like I used to be, in that you've fallen for fifty year old literature that's long since been disproved.
They were from Arkansas, not Missouri. They had nothing to do with Haun's Mill, or Nauvoo, or Jackson County, or anything! They simply had the worst luck in the history of mankind.
We can seek to understand why they did it, but in the end, no matter what theory you believe, they, in a very pre-meditated fashion, killed in cold blood. May God have mercy on their souls. This much we know: most never repented while in this life.
"It's okay I killed your mom and dad. I'm kidnapping you"
I realize most of you LDS who are defending the defenseless are like I used to be, in that you've fallen for fifty year old literature that's long since been disproved.
They were from Arkansas, not Missouri. They had nothing to do with Haun's Mill, or Nauvoo, or Jackson County, or anything! They simply had the worst luck in the history of mankind.
We can seek to understand why they did it, but in the end, no matter what theory you believe, they, in a very pre-meditated fashion, killed in cold blood. May God have mercy on their souls. This much we know: most never repented while in this life.
Anonymous | 3:39 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:Exmormon's View's comment:
If they were not supposed to kill children younger than eight...then these Mormon murderers were most certainly guilty of shedding the blood of those who were pure before God, by their own standards of belief.
Mary Lovina Baker - 7
America Jane Dunlap - 7
Sarah G. fancher - 7
Margaret A. Fancher - 7
If they were not supposed to kill children younger than eight...then these Mormon murderers were most certainly guilty of shedding the blood of those who were pure before God, by their own standards of belief.
Mary Lovina Baker - 7
America Jane Dunlap - 7
Sarah G. fancher - 7
Margaret A. Fancher - 7
JIM H | 3:51 p.m. March 27, 2008
BOY, AFTER READING SOME OF THESE COMMENTS IT'S APPARENT THE CHURCH NEEDS
TO MAKE CLEAR TO IT'S MEMBERS WHAT THEIR OFFICIAL POSITION IS!
IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THE CHURCH'S POSITION THAT THE GRAVITY OF THIS CRIME (SLAUGHTERING CHILDREN) IS SOMEHOW MITIGATED BECAUSE OF MURDERS BACK EAST OR PROVOCATIONS BY THE WAGON TRAIN.
IT CAN'T POSSIBLY BE THE CHURCH'S POSITION THAT THE GRAVITY OF THIS CRIME (SLAUGHTERING CHILDREN) IS SOMEHOW MITIGATED BECAUSE OF MURDERS BACK EAST OR PROVOCATIONS BY THE WAGON TRAIN.
Anonymous | 3:55 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re Earnest T Bass
You no darn good well that the Franchers poisoned the water. It's written in many of the pioneer diaries. You need to face the facts about things, just as the Mormons need too, and quit shoving the blame on just one group.
You no darn good well that the Franchers poisoned the water. It's written in many of the pioneer diaries. You need to face the facts about things, just as the Mormons need too, and quit shoving the blame on just one group.
CB | 3:53 p.m. March 27, 2008
For all those who talk about what a nice gesture it "would be" by the
LDS church to have a monument at Mountain Meadows, PLEASE GET INFORMED!!! There
already IS a very nice, large monument maintained by the Church there. Have any
of you ever actually been there?
As far as designation of a National Historic Landmark goes, why is that necessary for these organizations to let go, forgive, and move forward? The Church spends its own funds to maintain a really nice monument at the location. In general, the LDS Church does a much better (and cost-effective) job of maintaining historical sites than the already-over-its-budget government. Mountain Meadows is already a beautiful place appropriate for quiet reflection for anyone who wishes to stop there and visit, free of charge. It doesn't require our tax dollars to maintain it. The Church has already expressed "profound regret". Why can't the Arkansas and Missouri organizations get over it and move forward? And, frankly, how many of those folks are going to spend a lot of time at the monument, anyway? There a lot of causes in the world. Isn't there a more positive way these people can spend their time and energy?
As far as designation of a National Historic Landmark goes, why is that necessary for these organizations to let go, forgive, and move forward? The Church spends its own funds to maintain a really nice monument at the location. In general, the LDS Church does a much better (and cost-effective) job of maintaining historical sites than the already-over-its-budget government. Mountain Meadows is already a beautiful place appropriate for quiet reflection for anyone who wishes to stop there and visit, free of charge. It doesn't require our tax dollars to maintain it. The Church has already expressed "profound regret". Why can't the Arkansas and Missouri organizations get over it and move forward? And, frankly, how many of those folks are going to spend a lot of time at the monument, anyway? There a lot of causes in the world. Isn't there a more positive way these people can spend their time and energy?
Fredd | 3:55 p.m. March 27, 2008
Big Al, I'm betting the Catholic Church far outspends the LDS Church on
humanitarian efforts. I'm sure ther are many NGO's that do also. Its
great what the LDS church does but don't over inflate your claim, it
detracts from your accomplishments.
exmormon view | 4:12 p.m. March 27, 2008
The reason I believe the children 8 and younger were spared was because, well
think about it, at what age are children accountable for their sins? (according
to LDS theology)
Age 8. Anyone older was accountable for their sins. Whether the francher party poisoned water holes, killed Mormon apostles in Arkansas, or whatever, they were dubbed sinners.
Brigham Young taught a doctrine called Blood Atonement. It basically teaches: that there are certain sins which one commits that Jesus Christ's atonement won't cover. ie. Murder, adultry, and possibly lying and stealing. So in order to have these sins paid for (the law teaches) you should shed your own blood to atone for your own sins. Or you can shed someone elses blood to give them salvation. See Journal of Discourses.
The MMM was not a round em' up wild west shootout. It was a well planned execution to offer salvation to the "sinning" Francher party. With the indians to blame. Those who were not acountable (8 and younger) were spared.
Age 8. Anyone older was accountable for their sins. Whether the francher party poisoned water holes, killed Mormon apostles in Arkansas, or whatever, they were dubbed sinners.
Brigham Young taught a doctrine called Blood Atonement. It basically teaches: that there are certain sins which one commits that Jesus Christ's atonement won't cover. ie. Murder, adultry, and possibly lying and stealing. So in order to have these sins paid for (the law teaches) you should shed your own blood to atone for your own sins. Or you can shed someone elses blood to give them salvation. See Journal of Discourses.
The MMM was not a round em' up wild west shootout. It was a well planned execution to offer salvation to the "sinning" Francher party. With the indians to blame. Those who were not acountable (8 and younger) were spared.
Anon | 4:13 p.m. March 27, 2008
Hauns Mill, Jackson County, Carthage,
Enough said
Enough said
Confused | 4:14 p.m. March 27, 2008
The whole problem with MMM, is no one on either side knows what really
happened.
Anonymous believes that everything said about the Francher party is unstandiated.
No, They did not Poison water holes
No, They did not brag about event they particpated
Yes, They were innocent bystanders.
The problem with that is the fact that several pioneers who had nothing to do with MMM, report that this group did indeed do these things in their Journals.
My Ancestors ran across them as they came through the Beaver County area. Yes they were crude toward the women, they posined the watering holes.
The bottom line is know one knows for sure, they all have conjecture about what caused it.
No matter how much debate is going on it will not change anyones mind. You are going to believe what you want to believe and ignore other facts as unsatandiate documentation.
Anonymous believes that everything said about the Francher party is unstandiated.
No, They did not Poison water holes
No, They did not brag about event they particpated
Yes, They were innocent bystanders.
The problem with that is the fact that several pioneers who had nothing to do with MMM, report that this group did indeed do these things in their Journals.
My Ancestors ran across them as they came through the Beaver County area. Yes they were crude toward the women, they posined the watering holes.
The bottom line is know one knows for sure, they all have conjecture about what caused it.
No matter how much debate is going on it will not change anyones mind. You are going to believe what you want to believe and ignore other facts as unsatandiate documentation.
Jaye | 4:21 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:BigAl...I do not see that people are attacking the modern LDS Church as a
whole...but are discussing a historical event that was brought up in this
article.
There are a great many informative sources for information on this atrocity. Some could be considered to be 'anti-sites'...and others simply relate historical evidence based upon much investigative effort.
I doubt there is a person here who would dispute the fact that the LDS Church has engaged in huge efforts and cost in serving the world through their humanitarian efforts.
But we are discussing an event that should not be forgotten by anyone. The cold blooded and calculated murder of American emigrants, including men, women, teens, adolescents, and four little 7 year old girls.
If this angers you that this is being discussed at length...I suggest that you decline to read the comments any further.
There are a great many informative sources for information on this atrocity. Some could be considered to be 'anti-sites'...and others simply relate historical evidence based upon much investigative effort.
I doubt there is a person here who would dispute the fact that the LDS Church has engaged in huge efforts and cost in serving the world through their humanitarian efforts.
But we are discussing an event that should not be forgotten by anyone. The cold blooded and calculated murder of American emigrants, including men, women, teens, adolescents, and four little 7 year old girls.
If this angers you that this is being discussed at length...I suggest that you decline to read the comments any further.
Anonymous | 4:24 p.m. March 27, 2008
Sounds like a Hatfield's vs McCoy's story to me.
Jaye | 4:46 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re:Anonymous's response to Earnest T Bass...according to the journal of
Dimick Huntington, the brother in law of Brigham Young, who was present at a
meeting between Young and the southern Paiute leaders, Young encouraged the
Paiutes to seize all the cattle of emigrants who traveled on the south route
through southern Utah to California.
Furthermore, according to Huntington, Young told the Indians he was 'giving them' any cattle they seized. And Young had already sent George A.Smith with instructions for the Paiutes to let them know that Brigham Young considered emigration of Gentiles through Utah to be a threat to the well being of Mormon and Indian residents of the territory.
So much for pioneer journals.
Furthermore, according to Huntington, Young told the Indians he was 'giving them' any cattle they seized. And Young had already sent George A.Smith with instructions for the Paiutes to let them know that Brigham Young considered emigration of Gentiles through Utah to be a threat to the well being of Mormon and Indian residents of the territory.
So much for pioneer journals.
Lima | 5:02 p.m. March 27, 2008
It is embarrassing how the church refuses to put this issue to rest. The church
knows what happened and they choose to hid their resposibility rather than face
it. Do they think God is blind to the history. It is hard to keep the faith in
those who lack the courage of honesty.
Futile but neccessary | 4:57 p.m. March 27, 2008
It's usually futile to try to satisfy the anger of those who have been
harmed (no matter what you do it isn't enough), but that doesn't mean
you don't try.
I hope both sides can find what it takes to heal.
I hope both sides can find what it takes to heal.
oh for the love of... | 5:01 p.m. March 27, 2008
Did some of you even BOTHER to read the article?? These organizations
aren't asking for apologies on top of apologies! They simple want it to be
registered as a NATIONAL HISTORIC SIGHT, so that development doesn't
encroach upon the finally resting places of their ancestors. Development is
expanding rapidly in Southern Utah, and it seems some of the gravesites might
have the potential to one day be covered up by a golf course or something. Do
everyone a favor and actually READ the article, instead of getting all puffed
up, with your fingers itching to type some stupid response simply because the
title mentions Mountain Meadows.
Jaye | 5:09 p.m. March 27, 2008
Your information is incorrect exmormon view. All in all...four little 7 year old
girls were also murdered.
Google a list of the MMM victims for names and ages of the murder victims.
Google a list of the MMM victims for names and ages of the murder victims.
Observer | 5:08 p.m. March 27, 2008
I'm sure the people who were doing the killing didn't stop to ask
every child how old they were.
Not a member /spectator | 5:11 p.m. March 27, 2008
I am so tired of reading all the one sided views from both sides on this blog! I
think both sides were to blame for the massacre! And not just one group, but
both Mormon and the pretentious innocent?... Francher wagon train. IT TAKES TWO
TO TANGLE FOLKS! You guys are all guilty!
All you numb-sculls out there need to GO-GET-A-LIFE!
All you numb-sculls out there need to GO-GET-A-LIFE!
Confused | 5:18 p.m. March 27, 2008
ExMormon View:
Your view of Blood Atonement is not correct.
Blood Atonement doctrine is for indivuals only!!. What must they do to over come certain serious sins committed by the indivual.
This is a myth that people has spread with all the other anti mormon garbage.
No where does it say or ever spoken across the pulpit that people could use this doctrine as a method of killing people (LDS or Non LDS) with justification.
You have understand that the JD's(Journal of discourses) is not doctrine. Just opinion.
Your view of Blood Atonement is not correct.
Blood Atonement doctrine is for indivuals only!!. What must they do to over come certain serious sins committed by the indivual.
This is a myth that people has spread with all the other anti mormon garbage.
No where does it say or ever spoken across the pulpit that people could use this doctrine as a method of killing people (LDS or Non LDS) with justification.
You have understand that the JD's(Journal of discourses) is not doctrine. Just opinion.
Confuse | 5:16 p.m. March 27, 2008
Oh for the love:
In the article, you are correct.
Now ask yourself this question, why are they asking?
Because they have stated in the past that they feel the LDS church has not apologized "Well enough" for their liking.
In the article, you are correct.
Now ask yourself this question, why are they asking?
Because they have stated in the past that they feel the LDS church has not apologized "Well enough" for their liking.
Confused | 5:19 p.m. March 27, 2008
Exmormon View:
No where in the doctrine of Blood Atonement, does it say you can exercise this practice for anyone but yourself.
The JD, is the opinions of Brigham Young. Just because he has an opinion,does not make it doctrine.
No where in the doctrine of Blood Atonement, does it say you can exercise this practice for anyone but yourself.
The JD, is the opinions of Brigham Young. Just because he has an opinion,does not make it doctrine.
Missing the point | 5:24 p.m. March 27, 2008
The MMM ocurred a long time ago and is of no great historical significance. So
why all the passion and heartburn? There appears to be an underlying agenda on
the part of some that maybe simple as it is dirty. They engage in emotional
attacks that attempt to discredit the LDS church as an institution (they really
don't care what the topic is). LDS members who respond with poor reasoning
and rediculous examples (like "bad things happened to Mormons at Hauns
Mill") to justify the MMM simply play into the hands of those seeking to
hurt the LDS Church. The best way to handle the fanatical anti's and
ex's is to not waste time, they're not interested in genuine
dialogue. Just keep telling the truth to our friends and good people
everywhere and work jointly with people who sincerely want to heal old wounds.
Grule | 5:26 p.m. March 27, 2008
Hey Linda!
Thanks for the web-site! I read it too and it's quite VILE!
Thanks for the web-site! I read it too and it's quite VILE!
Jaye | 5:29 p.m. March 27, 2008
I read the account of one child survivor, Sara Frances Baker who was three, and
her 5 year old sister who also survived and witnessed the murders of their
entire family, and anyone over the age of 8, and who watched their 8 year old
sister Mary Levina being dragged away, never to be seen again.
Sara was sitting on her father's lap when the slaughter started. The very first shot felled a child eating breakfast.
And after the men surrendered their weapons, having been promised safe conduct to leave with their families, Sara witnessed their cold blooded murders.
The bullet that killed Sara's father also nicked her left ear, leaving a permanant scar. She witnessed two of the Dunlop sisters, 16 and 18, kneeling before John D.Lee begging him in vain to prevent their rape and murder. They were raped, and their throats slit.
Both Sara and her 5 year old sister Beth witnessed Mormons washing war paint off their faces down at the creek when it was all over.
Sara, Beth and their 2 year old brother Billy were taken into Mormon homes until the Federal Troops managed to rescue them.
Sara was sitting on her father's lap when the slaughter started. The very first shot felled a child eating breakfast.
And after the men surrendered their weapons, having been promised safe conduct to leave with their families, Sara witnessed their cold blooded murders.
The bullet that killed Sara's father also nicked her left ear, leaving a permanant scar. She witnessed two of the Dunlop sisters, 16 and 18, kneeling before John D.Lee begging him in vain to prevent their rape and murder. They were raped, and their throats slit.
Both Sara and her 5 year old sister Beth witnessed Mormons washing war paint off their faces down at the creek when it was all over.
Sara, Beth and their 2 year old brother Billy were taken into Mormon homes until the Federal Troops managed to rescue them.
magnus | 5:40 p.m. March 27, 2008
Re: lima
The church can not put this to rest while others are so intent on raising it up. They can only appologize and be honest, which I think they are finally doing.
They have openly admitted that high ranking local church officials orchestrated the massacre, that there where attempts to cover it up and blame it on the Native Americans, they have opened their archives for scrutiny, and they have appologized in numerous ways on numerous occations.
It is now the duty of the Mormon church, as the perpetrator of the crime, NOT to close the book. The church needs to take all of the abuse, answer all of the questions, and try to heal the wounds so long hidden. Hopefully this happens, or continues to happen, so the people truly hurt by this tragedy can take find peace, close this book for themselves, and move on without the burden of it hanging over their lives.
The church can not put this to rest while others are so intent on raising it up. They can only appologize and be honest, which I think they are finally doing.
They have openly admitted that high ranking local church officials orchestrated the massacre, that there where attempts to cover it up and blame it on the Native Americans, they have opened their archives for scrutiny, and they have appologized in numerous ways on numerous occations.
It is now the duty of the Mormon church, as the perpetrator of the crime, NOT to close the book. The church needs to take all of the abuse, answer all of the questions, and try to heal the wounds so long hidden. Hopefully this happens, or continues to happen, so the people truly hurt by this tragedy can take find peace, close this book for themselves, and move on without the burden of it hanging over their lives.
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