Reader comments
Pet project a pet peeve for some
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templework | 5:15 a.m. March 14, 2008
Hooray! People buy property because it is zoned for specific uses - in this case
rural or agriculture among other things. For someone to buy property and then
decide they want to force others to rezone to fit their personal whims (or
greed) is outrageous! Personal experience:
A 'mature' couple bought the acre next ours and went ballistic when they found out the 10 children where truly ours - not a 'daycare' - and they couldn't find a way to 'shut us down'! laugh sigh - it was a very unpleasant experience.
A 'mature' couple bought the acre next ours and went ballistic when they found out the 10 children where truly ours - not a 'daycare' - and they couldn't find a way to 'shut us down'! laugh sigh - it was a very unpleasant experience.
Farm Land | 5:49 a.m. March 14, 2008
It is sad we live in a Country community
Now we have those that want Hollywood
For those buying new homes in the country
If you buy a home under the Air Port Run way
You can expect air planes flying over.
Same for Animals
Animal Count from the City Council
It is unlawful to have a limit law on animals, Animals are considered property in the U.S Constitution, The City Council is in violation of the law
Now we have those that want Hollywood
For those buying new homes in the country
If you buy a home under the Air Port Run way
You can expect air planes flying over.
Same for Animals
Animal Count from the City Council
It is unlawful to have a limit law on animals, Animals are considered property in the U.S Constitution, The City Council is in violation of the law
Comments continue below
First come first serve | 6:09 a.m. March 14, 2008
If the alpaca ranch is legal, then no one looking to settle or develop the area
around it should whine to City Council about changing things--the llamas were
there first!
Bob G | 6:16 a.m. March 14, 2008
Maybe Carl Pack should relocate his developement, he knew going in what the
neighbors were. It seems that another devloper bought the land for the sole
purpose knowing he could convince the city council to make them close the animal
farm. That's how it works in Utah, by the land as speculative, force others
off their land and rezone for his own purposes to make a killing. Then after
forcing the closure of the animal farm, move in and secure it too for more
developement. Money and power are the moving factors, peoples rights are minimal
and overlooked. City master plans and developers are in constatnt battle and if
the land of Carl Pack is desiganted agricultrual then perhaps he should put in a
farm or raise his own Alpacas. Rezoning land once zoned should be held to that
same zoneing law and follow city master plans.
Tina Honsvick | 6:25 a.m. March 14, 2008
People need to realize that just because they want to "develop" land
does not give them the right to try and railroad everyone else out of their
property and livelihood. Obviously, if someone were buying into the
development, they would know the little critters were there first. Then it
becomes their responsibility to decide if they want to live there. I am so
tired of people who want to move into a rural area and then complain because it
smells like the country. Yes, critters smell, etc. But for those of us who
raise them, we have just as much right to that as others do to move in. Milk
does NOT come from a grocery store carton in it's original form and other
critters contribute to the planet also. Me, I think the alpaca are cute as heck
and good luck to the Bergman's. Some of us love all of the country
critters:)
MBKitchen | 6:41 a.m. March 14, 2008
Lovely and worthy hobby for the Bergmans. The money hungry developers can take a
flying leap. Kudos for the city council for not leaning toward the money mouths,
but rather following the law.
Bigbob | 7:29 a.m. March 14, 2008
The alpacas were there first and legally. This is a no brainer.
peluca | 7:43 a.m. March 14, 2008
Tina, come get some ham!
Amazing | 7:45 a.m. March 14, 2008
Can't even believe the council gave Mr. Pack the time of day on this issue.
Thank heavens they saw through him and did they right thing and sent him on his
way.
Alpacas are beautiful! (and, by the way, they are not llamas)...Congratulations to the Bergmans.
Alpacas are beautiful! (and, by the way, they are not llamas)...Congratulations to the Bergmans.
BH | 7:58 a.m. March 14, 2008
Looking at the photos you can see that this is a very well maintained farm
operation, one that I would imagine anyone who wants to live in a rural
neighborhood would be pleased to have as a neighbor.
Some rural communities in Utah have went so far as to pass resolutions or ordinances that declare the community to be agricultural based, and that no development shall force a property owner to give up his/her rights to keep farm animals. Perhaps Alpine should consider such.
Some rural communities in Utah have went so far as to pass resolutions or ordinances that declare the community to be agricultural based, and that no development shall force a property owner to give up his/her rights to keep farm animals. Perhaps Alpine should consider such.
Alpine Resident | 8:13 a.m. March 14, 2008
I live in Alpine and know the Bergman's keep a far better property and
looks better than most of the multi-million dollar plus properties around them.
A favorite hobby of ours is to go for drives and make comments how stupid and
what poor taste most people have in their properties. The majority of yards
around here look like weed breeding grounds. You should all see the immaculate
green lawns the Alpacas get to play on. They DON'T smell! I've been
there. Tell Carl Pack to take a hike.
p.s. My business is land acquisitions and developmemnt.
p.s. My business is land acquisitions and developmemnt.
Scooter | 8:09 a.m. March 14, 2008
Way to go Alpine, keep with the citizens & don't let developers or
high-society force changes to a great setting!
Re: Alpine Resident | 8:43 a.m. March 14, 2008
Take a hike, Carl Pack.
l | 8:57 a.m. March 14, 2008
Don't necessarily jump right in and villify Pack right away...it sounds
like he's looking into his options and is resigned to accept that he
alpacas are there legally. Many, many, many unethical, greedy developers and
landowners around the state have done terrible things to our agriculture
industry, so hopefully this one will turn out right.
Those that commented above definitely have it right, however, that although he has the right to develop his own property, that does not give him a right to infringe upon the rights of the Bergman ranch.
I looked at a beautiful model home in a nice new subdivision near a school with a winding river nearby, but it was right by a very busy road with a dairy right across the street. Guess what...I didn't buy it, because I didn't want to see/smell/hear the cows all day. How did I know they were there? I looked and sniffed. If more people would do their due diligence before buying property, we'd all get along better.
Those that commented above definitely have it right, however, that although he has the right to develop his own property, that does not give him a right to infringe upon the rights of the Bergman ranch.
I looked at a beautiful model home in a nice new subdivision near a school with a winding river nearby, but it was right by a very busy road with a dairy right across the street. Guess what...I didn't buy it, because I didn't want to see/smell/hear the cows all day. How did I know they were there? I looked and sniffed. If more people would do their due diligence before buying property, we'd all get along better.
Anonymous | 8:57 a.m. March 14, 2008
I'm really happy to read these comments. I feel the same way. Ranch was
there first. If your concerned, sell your land and buy to develop somewhere
else. It's crazy to see of of these developers who think they can just push
agriculture out because it doesn't mesh with their thoughts, even though
they moved to the country.
SLC gal | 9:12 a.m. March 14, 2008
Ohhh, those alpacas are sooo adorable!!!! Score 1 for the animals, 0 for stupid
corporate developers!!!!
bad neighbor | 9:53 a.m. March 14, 2008
Alpine needs more farms and fewer developers.
Take a hike Carl Pack, and take Carl Patterson with you.
Take a hike Carl Pack, and take Carl Patterson with you.
Highland resident | 10:18 a.m. March 14, 2008
An alpaca ranch does not produce the same sort of stink cattle do. My family
and I have biked past this ranch in the heat of summer and didn't notice
any smell at all (can't say that about cows or pigs). Their property is
gorgeous, the Bergman's keep it exceptionally clean, and if you didn't
see the alpacas behind the tall fences, you'd probably think it was
somebody's well-tended yard. Personally, I'd rather live next to
alpacas than some of the tacky McMansion monster homes that are being built in
Alpine and Highland.
Oh, and alpaca fiber is fabulous to work with - I'm a knitter, and I'd love to see that industry grow in the US!
Oh, and alpaca fiber is fabulous to work with - I'm a knitter, and I'd love to see that industry grow in the US!
Ranch in Alpine Now? | 10:30 a.m. March 14, 2008
When I grew up in Alpine 35 years ago, there really were ranches and dairies.
Heatons for example. Now it is just a playground for the rich who quickly want
to shut the door on anyone else and now raise exotic creatures. I don't
think there is a single person in Alpine that actually milks a cow now or uses
their ranch to feed their family. Its just turned into another Neverland from
the Michael Jackson's of the world.
JML | 10:48 a.m. March 14, 2008
I agree with the general tone of these comments. the Bergmans are in
compliance with all City zoning. The animals were there first.
I don't agree with Amazing who says Mr. Pack shouldn't be given the time of day. Everyone should ba allow to speak, right or wrong!
I don't agree with Amazing who says Mr. Pack shouldn't be given the time of day. Everyone should ba allow to speak, right or wrong!
Mike | 10:56 a.m. March 14, 2008
Property owners want to do different things with the property that they
purchased: Some want to house animals, others want to house kids, some want to
sell it to others so that they can house animals and/or kids. It is funny how
those that want to sell their property to those that have those worthy desires
are called "evil corporate developers."
Part of a Bigger Problem | 11:09 a.m. March 14, 2008
Zoning issues in Utah county in particular are part of what makes the whole area
look so haphazard. I don't know of any other part of the country where
opulent-looking homes are built next to small-time agricultural lots.
It's an eyesore and although the land developers are the obvious culprits being the newest arrivals, they are responding to demands from the market. Everyone needs to get actively involved on a city and county level to help make sure that the area doesn't swell into some weird, grossly-proportioned patchwork quilt of properties.
It's an eyesore and although the land developers are the obvious culprits being the newest arrivals, they are responding to demands from the market. Everyone needs to get actively involved on a city and county level to help make sure that the area doesn't swell into some weird, grossly-proportioned patchwork quilt of properties.
who really was there first? | 11:37 a.m. March 14, 2008
the answer is Carl Pack. He grew up on the property. It's been in his
family for over 100 years. And guess what? It used to be a farm. Well, fruit
farm. In fact the land belonging to the Bergmans used to be owned by Carl's
dad.
Still that doesn't give him the right to try to shut the Bergmans out. Their alpacas are beautiful and do not stink. I've visited the place a few times and you rarely see animal droppings. Personally, I'd rather have the view of the alpacas out my window than someone's obnoxiously large house.
Still that doesn't give him the right to try to shut the Bergmans out. Their alpacas are beautiful and do not stink. I've visited the place a few times and you rarely see animal droppings. Personally, I'd rather have the view of the alpacas out my window than someone's obnoxiously large house.
alpine | 11:37 a.m. March 14, 2008
I grew up in Alpine over 25 years ago. Carl Pack was there LONG before the
Bergmans and LONG before the elpacas. I agree with there being open and
beautiful space, but Carl Pack whos family has been there forever should be
shown some respect too.
Happy Alpaca's | 11:57 a.m. March 14, 2008
The pictures speak for themselves. The land is BEAUTIFUL, and the Alpaca's
well kept and HAPPY (the picture of the one looks like he's smiling!).
I'm glad the City Council is upholding the rights of these good American
Citizens to continue their hobby as they like. I wish we lived nearby, I'd
love to bring my kids to visit and see these great animals.
RangerGordon | 12:11 p.m. March 14, 2008
Before wondering whether hypothetical people who may or may not buy hypothetical
houses--which may or may not be built at some point in the future--would want to
live next door to alpacas, perhaps it makes more sense to ask whether or not the
alpacas, which are very real, want to live next door to the kinds of
hypothetical people who complain about them.
The dairy farm got kicked out! | 12:30 p.m. March 14, 2008
There used to be a diary farm on that road between Springville and the mouth of
the Spanish Fork Canyon. It was there when I was a student at BYU in the early
60s.
It was recently pressured out by the fat cats who didn't like the look or the smell but wanted the land around it.
It doesn't matter if cow poop smells worse than Alpaca poop. If your poop was there first the new neighbors need to move on or plug their noses.
Hope the neighborhood continues to stand up for the Alpaca park because if they don't the developers will eventually wear them out in the name of economic development.
You know how that goes--Energy Solutions--we apparently need Italian waste in Utah because of the economic development angle.
It was recently pressured out by the fat cats who didn't like the look or the smell but wanted the land around it.
It doesn't matter if cow poop smells worse than Alpaca poop. If your poop was there first the new neighbors need to move on or plug their noses.
Hope the neighborhood continues to stand up for the Alpaca park because if they don't the developers will eventually wear them out in the name of economic development.
You know how that goes--Energy Solutions--we apparently need Italian waste in Utah because of the economic development angle.
You're Right Mike! | 1:02 p.m. March 14, 2008
It isn't fair to call someone an "evil corporate developer";
it's totally redundant.
pdhmaine | 1:38 p.m. March 14, 2008
When we bought land in Maine 20+ years ago, it was zoned "highway
commercial", though it had been a pasture for grazing beef cattle for
generations. In order to build a house, we had to get a variance. One
condition of approval was that we understood and agreed we could not complain
about the dairy farm smells from next door, nor could we oppose the future
commercial use of nearby property. 4 years ago, we bought our first alpacas and
I am proud to see our land back in agricultural use.
Mr. Pack has every right to explore development of his family's property, but anyone looking to buy will need to understand that the farm was there, in full compliance of town statutes, before the development. They also need to understand that if the alpaca farmers move and pig or dairy farmers move in, they still (should) have no recourse about the smell or flies or whatever, as long as the farm is managed in accordance with customary practices.
Farming is hard enough without having to worry about encroaching development shutting you down.
Mr. Pack has every right to explore development of his family's property, but anyone looking to buy will need to understand that the farm was there, in full compliance of town statutes, before the development. They also need to understand that if the alpaca farmers move and pig or dairy farmers move in, they still (should) have no recourse about the smell or flies or whatever, as long as the farm is managed in accordance with customary practices.
Farming is hard enough without having to worry about encroaching development shutting you down.
send the critters | 2:02 p.m. March 14, 2008
back and build more ugly oversized under yarded dwellings for peoples egos -- go
Happy Valley. Without livestock we don't have a hope in h of survival and
not just for eating purposes. Same thing has happened in Draper, people bought
horse property along come a new comer and whined because they bought next to
horse property -- get a life and if you want city life then build in the city
bigbob | 2:08 p.m. March 14, 2008
For who really was there first and Alpine. At issue here is not how long Pack
has lived in Alpine, they sold the land and the rights now belong to the owners.
At issue is that the alpacas were there before the proposed subdivision.
There's no way they should be forces out!
AS | 2:14 p.m. March 14, 2008
Carl Pack sounds like a greedy, manipulative, loser. I sincerely hope he is
reading these comments. Take a hike Carl! And kudos to the Alpine City Council
for doing the right thing.
Anonymous | 2:37 p.m. March 14, 2008
Karl Pack sounds greedy and short-sighted like 99% of the rest of the developers
in Utah county. I'd much rather see an alpaca ranch than his too-close,
bigger-than-they-oughtta-be houses. Greed, greed, greed.
Glen | 2:50 p.m. March 14, 2008
Who was there first?
it doesn't matter | 5:12 p.m. March 14, 2008
It doesn't matter who was there first. What matters, at least to the
politicians, is the size of their tax base. If they are presented with a plan
that will net them more money they will claim emminant (sp?) domain and condemn
the original property, steal it, and give it over to the developer. This action
has been deemed constitutional. No one is safe from this action. Anyone's
property can be condemned if the government feels they can make more money off
of it. Look at "downtown" Holladay for an example.
GCAT | 5:18 p.m. March 14, 2008
I just appreciate such an honest and thorough examinatiion of this issue. The
alpacas are a resource we can't live without! My wise grandfather once
told me life is made of air, water, and alpacas. Thanks for preserving thie
precious and delicate resource!
Ironic | 5:32 p.m. March 14, 2008
Actually, Carl is the life long resident of Alpine who farmed the land since he
was a little boy. Bergman is the California transplant who I think made his
money developing land in San Diego.
Anonymous | 5:50 p.m. March 14, 2008
Has anyone seen this alpaca ranch? It's nice. A little too nice for
animals. The Bergman's treat these animals like spoiled children.
It's a little weird. If you can remember the movie "Best in
Show" that's the type of weird they are. There not bad people just a
little different. I wouldn't be surprised if they held birthday parties for
each of their "kids".
Yawn-er | 6:06 p.m. March 14, 2008
I can't believe this is news. Maybe if it investigated if all of the
south-of-the-border labor I saw the Bergman's use to landscape their land
last summer was legal labor then it might be worthy of a front page story.
No big deal | 7:03 p.m. March 14, 2008
1. Pack didn't try to get the Alpaca's next to his house evicted.
2. He did express concern about a new alpaca holding pen and a 18 ft. fence being built in a new area adjacent to his property.
3. If you listen to the recording available on the internet Pack was very complimentary of the alpaca farm. He simply expressed a mild concern about the new fence.
4. Pack is not a professional developer. He owns a little land behind his house where he has lived for more than 50 years and thought he sell it. What's the big deal about that?
5. Some reporter gets a hold of the story and takes a little liberty to make it more interesting and wham-o: Carl Pack (one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet) instantly becomes a villain. Carl would give you the shirt off his back in the middle of a snow storm. Anybody who knows him would vouch for that.
2. He did express concern about a new alpaca holding pen and a 18 ft. fence being built in a new area adjacent to his property.
3. If you listen to the recording available on the internet Pack was very complimentary of the alpaca farm. He simply expressed a mild concern about the new fence.
4. Pack is not a professional developer. He owns a little land behind his house where he has lived for more than 50 years and thought he sell it. What's the big deal about that?
5. Some reporter gets a hold of the story and takes a little liberty to make it more interesting and wham-o: Carl Pack (one of the nicest guys you'd ever meet) instantly becomes a villain. Carl would give you the shirt off his back in the middle of a snow storm. Anybody who knows him would vouch for that.
Gus | 7:36 p.m. March 14, 2008
Leave the alpaca ranch in peace! Don't give in to wealthy developers.
By the way, alpacas and llamas are the same.
By the way, alpacas and llamas are the same.
Phred | 9:59 p.m. March 14, 2008
We never see the back side of the moon because it is lop-sided enough that we
never get to see anything but that one perspective.
This story is about as lop-sided as any I have seen lately. Mr. Thomas did an admirable job of presenting the perspective of the Bergmans. When will we get to know the Packs? What is their story? Farmers seldom willingly give up their land but are often forced by family circumstances or rising taxes based on surrounding land values. Packs comment, very respectfully, sounded like the surrounding properties, except Bergmans, were no longer being used for agricultural purposes. Is he like many farmers who's old age income is dependant on gradually selling parcels of his land? Will he be able to get fair market value based on surrounding residential values for similar property?
How about a follow up Mr Thomas? How about the rest of the story?
And just for the record, alpacas and llamas both belong to the camel family but the alpacas are only half as big and make much better neighbors, kind of like chinchillas that are clean compared to mink who really stink.
This story is about as lop-sided as any I have seen lately. Mr. Thomas did an admirable job of presenting the perspective of the Bergmans. When will we get to know the Packs? What is their story? Farmers seldom willingly give up their land but are often forced by family circumstances or rising taxes based on surrounding land values. Packs comment, very respectfully, sounded like the surrounding properties, except Bergmans, were no longer being used for agricultural purposes. Is he like many farmers who's old age income is dependant on gradually selling parcels of his land? Will he be able to get fair market value based on surrounding residential values for similar property?
How about a follow up Mr Thomas? How about the rest of the story?
And just for the record, alpacas and llamas both belong to the camel family but the alpacas are only half as big and make much better neighbors, kind of like chinchillas that are clean compared to mink who really stink.
Oregon | 10:25 p.m. March 14, 2008
Where do you come off saying that Carl Pack's desires are fueled by greed?
There is nothing in the article that can even hint that. He made a request for
a public hearing through the proper channels and was overruled. THE SYSTEM
WORKS! Imagine that.
Unfortunately the majority of those responding to this article missed that point completely and showed their intelligence at the same time by attacking the character of a person they don't know. The sad thing is I would imagine that most of those making the absurd comments about Alpine would live there in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.
Unfortunately the majority of those responding to this article missed that point completely and showed their intelligence at the same time by attacking the character of a person they don't know. The sad thing is I would imagine that most of those making the absurd comments about Alpine would live there in a heartbeat if given the opportunity.
people matter! | 11:07 p.m. March 14, 2008
Are most of the people commenting on this article just plain rude? This issue
does not warrant this kind of personal attack on the persons involved.
Kenton | 12:17 a.m. March 15, 2008
I feel that Should leave the them alone. Leave the alpaca ranch in peace!
Don't give in to wealthy developers. I feel that developers are pushing in
the way to take way people rights to have any type animals on ranch they wants.
Marie Devine | 9:43 p.m. March 15, 2008
The land off milk and honey God wants for us will have useful pets that produce
food, alpacas also give milk I believe. We can have a sheep or goat or checkens
in many lots instead of or in addition to dogs and cats. As long as you only
have one or two and they will supply milk for making butter and cheese, put the
eggs from the chicken together with the milk and you get custard and ingredients
for many baked goods.
Natural food is for healthy bodies. We just need to choose useful pets and start removing any restrictions. There is energy savings from not processing and transporting all those foods and fibers... we need to change to God's simple enjoyable life , a retirement lifestyle of garden paradise here and now.
Natural food is for healthy bodies. We just need to choose useful pets and start removing any restrictions. There is energy savings from not processing and transporting all those foods and fibers... we need to change to God's simple enjoyable life , a retirement lifestyle of garden paradise here and now.
Carla | 12:43 p.m. March 17, 2008
Perhaps those of you who don't know the Packs personally should take the
time the find out the facts. The Packs have been there for generations and are
NOT wealthy developers, which anyone who took the time to check things out would
know. The alpacas have been there for just a few years, and what may have
started out as a "hobby" (Alpine Alpacas of America) now has a website
listing alpacas for sale. They are operating under the premise that they are not
a business. How is this NOT a business if they are selling alpacas and
processing their fleece?
A Nice Alpine Resident | 2:07 p.m. March 17, 2008
Those of you who are telling Carl Pack to take a hike obviously don't know
him at all. He is one of the nicest people I have ever met in my life! He has
lived in Alpine his whole life, as have generations of his family before him. He
is not a wealthy professional developer, but a man who wants to put a few
TASTEFUL (difficult to find in Alpine anymore!) homes on a piece of property he
has owned for years. And, for the record, the Packs were in Alpine LONG before
the alpacas and their hobby-loving transplanted owners. So do a little research
Mr. Come First Served, Bob G, Tina Honsvick, MBKitchen, Bigbob, Amazing,
Scooter, Alpine Resident, SLC gal (stay there, by the way), bad neighbor (yes,
you are!) and all other misinformed and uneducated.
Hobby My Hind Hoof | 6:00 p.m. March 17, 2008
Any journalist worth his salt knows that there are always two sides to every
story. Ethan Thomas didn't even bother to attempt to contact Mr. Pack for
his comments. Obviously, this entire article is meant as free PR for the
Bergman's and their "hobby", which, by the way is the most
expensive hobby I have ever encountered! Imagine, a hobby that includes several
dozen head of alpacas (they cost anywhere from several thousand to over a
hundred thousand per head), grazing them on dozens of acres of THE MOST
EXPENSIVE LAND IN ALL OF UTAH, if not the western United States, and a
"ranch manager". Quite the hobby I'd say! Please exercise your
journalistic muscles a little and give us the rest of the story.
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I think it would be fun and relaxing, actually, to be able to look out my window and watch them in their field.
If there is a concern about an animal smell, then the developer should let potential buyers know in advance so the new home owners won't complain and try to get rid of the ranch in the future.
Jill Bergman's ranch sounds like a good neighbor, and I hope she is able to enjoy her hobby for many years to come.