Deseret News | Reader comments: Teachers' merit pay needs study, ed board says

Reader comments
Teachers' merit pay needs study, ed board says

Anonymous | 12:05 a.m. March 8, 2008

Legislators were COWARDS on this one.

They think merit pay sounds good on paper. But they know there is no fair or just way to implement it.

So they dangle a carrot out there hoping the districts will write a policy they can steal.

Here is my proposal.

I teach more than 30 kids per period for 6 periods a day.

That MERITS anything you can send my way.

Thanks.

Socialist | 3:43 a.m. March 8, 2008

How can you run a socialist institution if you allow the corrupt practice of merit pay to creep into the institution? Rewarding excellence promotes more excellence. If you draw positive attention to some teachers, other less gifted teachers will be left out. How can that be fair?

Being fair to the weaker, less gifted or motivated teachers is more important than doing what is best for children.

Paid on Merit? That's crazy! | 5:07 a.m. March 8, 2008

Anonymous:

I wonder if there is anywhere in the private sector that a statement like "I have as much work to do as anyone else in the company, I should get paid as much as anyone else" would work. I think the answer is a big "no". Teachers have a tough job, no doubt about it, but lots of people have tough jobs, but they also live with the expectation that if they do their job well they'll get paid more, and if they don't do it well they'll get fired. What makes education so special that you should be exempt from this?
We need some way to separate out those teachers who teach because they love to and because they care about what they're doing from those who teach because the union provides job security for even the most mediocre in the profession. Merit pay is a great start.

Comments continue below

Elementary teacher | 7:48 a.m. March 8, 2008

And give me gifted students rather than struggling ones..that way my students will do better on tests.
Oh, and how does merit pay address the teacher shortage? One of the reasons for high teacher turnover is the difficulty in seeing that you can't make a difference in all students. Some just refuse to be a part of the class.
It takes years to develop a good teaching style-one that would possibly deserve "merit pay". New teachers might think that this is an impossibility and it may drive more people away from the profession. However, I would like to see some of these ideas, although I'm skeptical that they will produce any results among teachers.

Anonymous | 8:56 a.m. March 8, 2008

I don't want to teach any but the motivated kids so I can get paid more than those less fortunate teachers that are stuck in the lower programs.

Honestly, that is how merit pay is looked at form a teacher's point of view. It is so bad for those kids who are average and below as the veteran teachers will avoid them even more now.

No way to win | 8:58 a.m. March 8, 2008

The districts/ed establishment complain when the Legislature implements it's own program and complains when the Legislature sends the money and asks the districts to come up with their own plan.

You can't have it both ways.

To supporters of Merit Pay | 9:53 a.m. March 8, 2008

To all you merit pay advocates...

I am a good teacher. I would love to get more pay based on that. Can even ONE of you give me a good plan as to how we can make that work?

Seriously. I would love to see one. I'm just as sick of the bad teachers as you are. I have to deal with them every day. Their poor performance affects the students in my class as well.

Please. Submit a plan right here on the comments section. I will forward it to my local legislator ASAP. He is a good friend of mine.

Thanks.

Clare | 11:58 a.m. March 8, 2008

As a teacher of 23 years, I have no problem with merit pay. My only question is: What is a great or even good teacher? How can you prove it? I've known teachers who love their kids and work hard but just don't have the talent to really connect with their students. Is is like any other talent, you must have a gift for something before you can truly be great at it. For example, I'm a singer who has had 30 years of vocal training. Regardless of this training, if I hadn't been born with a good instrument, I would never be able to sing Puccini or Mozart well. Good teaching is so subjective. I've known teachers who have been in the Hall of Fame at my school that I don't believe to have deserved the award. Obviously, a lot of people disagreed with me. Hopefully, merit pay won't be based on popularity, as so many things are these days, rather than on true talent.

Merit Pay Plan | 11:57 a.m. March 8, 2008

In response to your call for a merit pay model, here is a partial plan. The biggest problem determining what is meritorious. Student performance is key, but how to determine student performance?
The best way to do it is with longitudinal tracking; that is, following a student's test scores from grade-to-grade. So student improvement, rather than a student natural aptitude, becomes the benchmark for student performance; if your students improves over last year you get a bonus. This answers the concerns that only teachers of gifted students would get a bonus. The problem here is that the state would need to more uniformly track and monitor student success from year-to-year. Quarterly assessments during the year may also be helpful. Other factors might also be considered, but students' academic progress should be the first criteria.
Additionally, merit should be based on both teacher and school level performance. A teacher's merit bonus should be based on his/her individual performance, but no one in a school should receive a bonus unless a minimum school-wide performance level is achieved. This overcomes the "free rider" problem, because lower performing teachers will be held accountable by high performing teachers to improve their performance.

Science Teacher | 12:05 p.m. March 8, 2008

Merit pay is impossible to deal with in education. That's EXACTLY why the legislature left it up to the districts... they can't figure it out!

In business, companies are allowed to get rid of bad product, inferior materials, and deal with clientele that pay.

Not so in education. You take the kids that come through the door, regardless of their motivation or IQ.

What this will effectively do is make all veteran teachers scramble for the easiest and brightest classes. All the below average IQ kids, the resource, options, and lower grade classes in each school will be left to the new and inexperienced teacher.

Vet teachers get the awards and raises. New teachers get burnt out and leave.

All this does is exacerbate the problem we already have!

Good challenge | 12:51 p.m. March 8, 2008

But it won't happen because there is no good way to create a merit pay system.

Base rewards on test scores--even increases? If a special ed teacher is compared with the teacher of gifted and talented students, what's a fair score?

Base it on parent or student satisfaction? I've been the best teacher in the world and the worst teacher on earth all during the same semester. Who was right?

Base it on classroom instruction? My style is very different from another teacher's style. Whose is better?

I spend quite a bit of time after school correcting papers, planning, etc. Most of my colleagues leave the building at the end of the contract day, but take work home with them. Who is more productive? How can you tell?

Some teachers have student groupies who hang around their classrooms in the morning. I prefer to get ready for school in solitude. Which of us is the better teacher?

Denver teachers seemed to work something out, so maybe they have a model. I, however, remain sceptical.

maybe | 1:45 p.m. March 8, 2008

Merit pay has some merit, but the devil is in the details as many have pointed out above.

It is a good idea to form another group to study the concepts, but the question is whether legislators will actually show up now that they won't get $3000 each over the year as was the original compensation plan in HB 81.

shadow | 3:25 p.m. March 8, 2008

Lots of accurate statements. My experience is that merit pay is just an excuse for the administration to reward those who play the game, and kiss up. The people in the trenches? They are not going to get any merit pay.

Trying to quantify a quality is not easy: heck, it probably is impossible. Think back to the teachers who honestly improved you... you did not like them at the time? The other teachers did not like them? Longitudinal studies are ok, but for how long? Who tracks? What is measured? Student's contribution to society?

Let's take the high road for a change. Pay teachers what they are worth: they train the next generation, the future taxpayers, technologists, etc. How much is it worth to society to compensate the teachers?

Put enough money on the table to allow the teacher to be middles class. Put enough incentives to bring in the believers, who put students first and foremost. Put out the word that teaching is a prime career choice, honored all the time.

Japanese do it. Germans do it. Russians do it. Koreans really do it. And in Singapore they worship teachers. Can we do it?

The Shadow Ponders.

russ | 3:32 p.m. March 8, 2008

Mr. JN Washburn, you deserved merit. Every year. All the time. Darn, you were good.

Thanks.

Teachers should leave the state | 5:40 p.m. March 8, 2008

Teachers are already overburdened with high class sizes, lack of materials and resources, and fairly low wages as compared to other states. Now the idea is to connect their pay with how well parents do at raising and disciplining kids at home. Who in their right mind would go to college to be a teacher in such a thankless profession? Even 15 year old babysitters get more appreciation and pay than your most veteran teachers in this state. The true professional teachers need to leave the state and go where they are appreciated, and leave our classrooms to the part-time mom who has 10 years of experience teaching Sunday school and a husband who can make a decent living in the private sector. The last time there this much hatred and vitriol against a group of people was in Nazi Germany. Fortunately, some Jews got out of Germany. Unfortunately, many Jews couldn't get out of Germany. I'm afraid that similarly, many good Utah teachers will get stuck in a place that hates them as well, I just hope this persecution of teachers doesn't snowball into something worse. Merit pay is already a step in that direction.

to "teachers should leave" | 10:00 a.m. March 9, 2008

I am a teacher, and I agree that it is often a "thankless profession." But comparing us to persecuted Jews in Nazi Germany is completely ridiculous. I haven't noticed any gas chambers around my district lately.

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