Deseret News | Reader comments: Day for vets: Utah budget nears completion

Reader comments
Day for vets: Utah budget nears completion

oldman | 8:22 a.m. March 1, 2008

The teachers will still be whining after this pay increase. Very few jobs pay - with the level of education (education that was handed to them by the tax-payers) of a teacher - pay as well (with excellent benefits). It is time parents (most who make far less than teachers) stood up to the teachers. If teachers are so underpaid - they should quit and find a better paying job. They are using our children to extort more money. Teachers tell us what you make. C'mon now. Do your job - quit whining - or get out.

to Oldman | 8:22 | 9:09 a.m. March 1, 2008

Mr. you are short sighted. As it is now, you have many talented people who would like to become teachers who are not. You may not realize it, but there is a teacher shortage in Utah and it is only going to get worse.

If you make significantly less than a teacher, no doubt, you probably have only a high school education or not much past that. You can't judge how much other people make by how much you make.

Teachers spent 4 years of their life preparing for a profession, they are professionals and if we are to attract the best to the field, they have to make a comfortable living.

Why do I say this? Because math education has deteriorated over the past many years since I went to school. We are attracting many people with math education degrees to teach math, who aren't as well prepared as people with actual math or related degrees such as physics, or engineering.

As a result our math education has gone considerably down hill. This if we don't get it fixed will be a considerable drag on the economy. Sorry you didn't prepare well, but we need to do right today.

RMW | 9:30 a.m. March 1, 2008

Your feelings are valid, however, government officials are concerned about teacher quality. Utah's neighboring states all pay much better. They have better supplies and support. They have lower class sizes. Many Utah education graduates are leaving Utah to work where pay and conditions are better.

Utah officials know that student populations will grow. Many Utah teachers are approaching retirement age. They see a huge need for teachers, but if they can't compete with other states, they will have to settle for "lower quality" teachers to be in our classrooms.

It is a supply and demand issue. I'm not sure what you feel the state should do. If we don't pay teachers more and improve benefits and conditions, how do you expect to find quality teachers to teach here in Utah?

The key to quality teachers is to have a large enough supply wanting jobs that you can pick and choose the very brightest and best. The only way to do that is to be competitive with surrounding states.

Comments continue below

Mark | 9:37 a.m. March 1, 2008

You wrote about the money for teacher: "The money would be one-time, and would amount to a 1 percent increase in the weighted pupil unit, or WPU."

That sounds more like a one-year increse to school budgets, and districts have historically shown a reluctance to pass extra money on to teachers. How do we know this temporary increase in the WPU won't end up going to admnistrative or other expenses, instead of into teachers' pockets.

By the way "oldman", next time sign in as grumpy old man. Perhaps teachers are close to being fairly paid for their work, but they are certainly not overpaid.

Teacher | 9:32 a.m. March 1, 2008

This year my husband's salary was $30,000. Just tell me, would YOU whine? Do you want people to teach your kids that really don't care about their own living? Basically, you want good teachers - good people - teaching your kids? Or bums off the street? Because they make more than we do. He made more doing drywall per hour in college. He chose to sacrifice business and other opportunities in college to make a difference. He deserves a salary that doesn't qualify for state welfare.

Disappointed Utahn | 10:13 a.m. March 1, 2008

Oldman, why do you think taxpayers have trained teachers? I paid for college myself. New teachers often have student loans to pay off. Many teachers have quit to either move to other states and teach, or have found higher paying employment. You would know this if today is not the first day you have read a newspaper.

Disappointed Utahn | 10:17 a.m. March 1, 2008

Oldman, is today the first day you've read the paper? New teachers often have to pay off student loans. The taxpayers aren't doing this for them. Also, not all states are experiencing the teacher shortage to the same degree as Utah. Utah teachers are either moving away or leaving the profession. What was your profession? I would imagine those wages were influenced by what your competitors were paying.

Education | 10:24 a.m. March 1, 2008

People who go into education go in with a perfect knowledge of what the pay is. Then, they whin forever because they don't like the pay. They work 182 days a year, have every holiday plus extra days off, and then complain that it is not fair. If you don't like it, find another job. Of, they do that in the summer when they don't have to work but still draw a paycheck. You know what profession you are getting into. Quit complaining

Science Teacher | 10:27 a.m. March 1, 2008

Oldman sounds like he hasn't been in school for awhile. Even in my h.s. econ class this topic was covered. Supply and demand.

If you want to keep teachers in Utah, you need to pay them wages that allow them to live.

Here's my story. My wife is pregnant and extremely ill. We can't afford to have her stay at home because I'm a teacher and can't make ends meet.

Yes, I know. That's the story of almost everyone. However, when a district right across the border pays me about $10,000 more to start, what really is keeping me here?

Thus, the exodus of all our graduates. They go where the money is. Don't pay them more, lose more. It's really simple logic.

I like Old Man's Thinking | 11:02 a.m. March 1, 2008

Hey, he's old, probably had the state pay to educate his kids and is happy.
I think every teacher in the State ought to quit and go into a more lucrative profession.

With their training, knowing how to deal with 36 immature personalities at a time, knowing how to work bell to bell with no bathroom or coffee breaks, they would have most of the good paying jobs that the people out there whining about paying extra taxes have now, and those people would be forced into teaching, which they all think is a cake-walk, and the kids would be running the schools.

Unfortunately, teachers rely on legislative handouts, and don't get paid for what they produce. If it was a true market economy, we could not afford education in this State.

So, Old Man doesn't care, he's gonna be dead soon, and no one will be around to educate the kids Utahns keep pumping out like rabbits.

So, seriously, teachers...

All of you quit, and leave the state to figure out how to educate the the gifted, the special, the handicapped, the deliquent (diverse) children you keep pumping into the system, while teachers take all the high-paying jobs away.

I have a Thought | 11:15 a.m. March 1, 2008

Everyone who wonders where their education dollars are going, get a list of all administrators and support personnel, see how many there are and how much they make, and pop into the District Office and follow them around for a day and see if they really earn their keep.

Go to the State Office of Education and see what those folks get paid to sit around, drink coffee and write "policies" all day in a sterile environment, unsullied by dirty, coughing children.

The only trace of students there is artwork from the schools.

Then, do the same thing at a school, where all of the action is happening.

Swing by a classroom where a teacher is teaching a riveting lesson, where real learning is going on. Teachers wearing clothes purchased at the DI, with their 10-year-old car parked outside, with fading paint and a transmission going out.

I think what you will see is that education needs a clean sweep at the administrative level.

Hey, and swing by the homes of many of these children at 11:00 pm and see if they have done their homework, or are even at home asleep.

Yep, old man, teachers are way overpaid.

Utah County Resident | 11:51 a.m. March 1, 2008

Hey Old Man, your stirred up a hornets nest, you bad little kitten!

Some things to consider:
1. Work out a system to save some teach graduates by initiating a system that if you are a graduate of a Utah university in education, you must spend the first 5 years in Utah education....thus solving the socalled teacher shortage.
2. Revamp the teacher wage structure to have a much higher starting wage for entering teachers, with stipulations on work results.
3. Institute a more efficient method of weeding out the under performing people in education, including at the administration level.
4. Contract the number of school districts in Utah. It is obsurd to have the small districts in the farflung counties of the state. A state of the population of Utah, approx. 3,000,000 should have no more than 10 districts, maximum. Come on...let's save money at that level.
5. Allow free enterprise to enter the market on a level playing field...as in vouchers or credit on tax returns for private school tuition costs.
6. Get the legislators and school districts and the UEA out of the budget process, and consider another revenue source dedicated exclusively to fund schools. No home taxes!!!!

Backwards Oldman Thinking | 12:20 p.m. March 1, 2008

The right-wing thinking like that of oldman and others on this message board is exactly what leads to the outsourcing of jobs to India and other countries. The right wants to complain about exporting jobs but they are also unwilling to properly fund education to produce a qualified workforce. You can't have it both ways. Either fund education or outsource your jobs

RMW | 12:33 p.m. March 1, 2008

Utah County Resident, nice points, but unrealistic.

1) Force graduates to teach in Utah? Can't do it. Nice try.

2) Pay starting teachers more? That's fine until they are not "starting teachers" anymore. Base pay upon performance is a worthy goal. There should be vigorous evaluation processes.

3) Weed out bad teachers and hire better quality? Amen. The way to improve teacher quality is to hire the best and brightest from a pool of candidates. But you better have high salaries and good conditions to ATTRACT those good candidates.

4) Consolidate districts? It's a misnomer that the larger the district the more efficient it is. Most people feel large district lose touch with community.

5) Vouchers? Most are philosophically opposed to public money going to private and religious organizations.

6) Get the government out of funding? Unrealistic. Public schools require public representation. This is done through the legislature and governor.

The simple reality of education quality is that Utah, somehow, must "attract" quality teacher applicants. The legislature needs to find a way to make Utah an attractive place to teach. They are in a vicious competition with other western states. That is the blunt reality.

alfie kohn | 1:05 p.m. March 1, 2008

Despite what is widely assumed by economists and behaviorists, some things are more than the sum of their parts, and some things can't be reduced to numbers. It's an illusion to think we can specify and quantify all the components of good teaching and learning, much less establish criteria for receiving a bonus that will eliminate the perception of arbitrariness. No less an authority than the statistician-cum-quality-guru W. Edwards Deming reminded us that "the most important things we need to manage can't be measured."

It's possible to evaluate the quality of teaching, but it's not possible to reach consensus on a valid and reliable way to pin down the meaning of success, particularly when dollars hang in the balance. What's more, evaluation may eclipse other goals. After merit-pay plans take effect, administrators often visit classrooms more to judge teachers than to offer them feedback for the purpose of improvement.

Schoolwide merit pay, again, is no less destructive than the individual version. High stakes induce cheating, gaming, teaching to the test, and other ways of snagging the bonus (or dodging the penalty) without actually improving student learning.

So how should we reward teachers? We shouldn't. They're not pets.

Just be fair.

Anonymous | 1:45 p.m. March 1, 2008

to the people that keep saying "you knew what you were getting into so if you don't like it leave"....

You need to close your mouths! That is exactly what is happening. They are leaving in large numbers and now no one is left to teach the little darlings. My kids have had first year teachers for too many years. Just once I want my child to get an "experienced" teacher that has been there more than 5 years!

The simple fact is we need good teachers to stick around. We aren't getting them. We have to pay a GREAT salary not a decent one. Starting should be at least $40,000 a year.

Misplaced priorities | 3:40 p.m. March 1, 2008

According to Oldman, teachers make too much money. What about Doctors, Dentists, Lawyers, Insurance Agents, Mangers of fast food, etc, etc, etc? I haven't noticed many teachers living in affluent neighborhoods. Obviously, Oldman doesn't view education as a top priority. Here is some food for thought: A typical 15 year old babysitter is paid approx. $2.00-$2.50 per hour per kid. (Unless you have found a thrall). If a teacher was paid the same rate, the average pay would be approximately $80,000 (depends on class size). Over-sized band, choir, and PE classes would net a teacher a six-figure salary if the babysitter rate was applied. Now the shocker: The beginning teacher in Utah makes approximately 75 cents per hour per child. I hope this puts things into a new perspective for people. Investing in our children ought to be our first priority, but I think that our coupon clipping culture has forgotten where our priorities should lie. Many in our communities would rather put all their money into their fancy homes, gadgets, cars, gadgets, and expensive vacations rather than invest in their children's future. We need to re-evaluate our priorities and start behaving like responsible parents.

to oldman | 6:14 p.m. March 1, 2008

Get out and do a little reading about the state of teaching in Utah before spouting off. Do you know the state does have a problem keeping good teachers? Do you know people ARE taking your advice and quitting to find other jobs because the pay is so bad? That is exactly the problem. Get off your high horse and come try teaching for one day if you think it's all a fairy tale.

Re:Oldman | 6:49 p.m. March 1, 2008

I think everyone should just back off Oldman and give him the right to voice his opinion, after all, this is still America and all have the right to voice how they feel.

To Oldman: Dementia is a problem in the brain that makes it hard for a person to remember, learn and communicate. After a while, this makes it hard for the person to take care of himself or herself.

Dementia may also change a person's mood and personality. At first, memory loss and trouble thinking clearly may bother the person who has dementia. Later, disruptive behavior and other problems may start. The person who has dementia may not be aware of these problems.

I'm just worried about there, buddy...

A few facts | 6:59 p.m. March 1, 2008

Utah is last in the nation in percentage of education dollars that go to administration. Utah has the fewest administrators per student in the nation. Administrative costs in Utah very low.

Many people don't seem to understand why it takes a long time to fire a teacher for incompetence. The reason is STATE LAW. State law dictates that a teacher needs three consecutive negative evaluations. Teachers are evaluated twice annually meaning that it would take 1.5 years to fire a teacher, unless they've done something illegal, or horrific. The difficulty of firing a poor teacher holds education back. However in order to change that state law must be changed.

Teachers don't get paid through the summer. They are paid for the 9 months of work they do, although some divide that pay up over 12 months, but saying the get paid for the summer is wrong.

To Education | 7:21 p.m. March 1, 2008

You must have had a terrible time in school to come up with that logic. I guess you don't value education, because you didn't get one. (Spell check)

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Medal of Honor recipient George Wahlen stands and is recognized as the Utah Senate approves funding of a second veterans nursing home in northern Utah.

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