Deseret News | 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Alex, part 3 | 1:06 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The reality is that we get grace for our works motivated by our faith. You might believe that a profession of faith is where we show our faith in Christ. To us, we show our faith through covenant. You see, when Mormons talk about ï¿½earningï¿½ our salvation, we are only talking about that small part that He requires of us for His grace to be efficaciousï¿½the only thing that we can do anything about. We believe that show our faith in Christ and bind ourselves to Him by entering into covenants that we must be faithful to. When we are faithful (not perfect), we get grace for our works. We are made into a new creature. We are made into His image. If we continue in grace (covenant) we eventually become like Him. In other words, we become a god.

Anonymous | 1:16 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

If the FLDS can't call themselves Mormon because the LDS say so, then the LDS can't call themselves Christians because the Chrsitians say so

Living in the Bible Belt | 1:21 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The intellectual and spiritual traditions of Jonathan Edwards and Charles Haddon Spurgeon are not the teaching of Jesus Christ. They are only the ossified, private interpretations of a group proud of its ability to define Christianity in restrictive, non-Christian terms.

Edwardsites or maybe Spurgeons but not Christians.

How's that register on the Cult-O-Meter?

Comments continue below

Part of the problem | 1:22 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Here's a big part of the problem, everything is evil:
We have to include the wicked stuff. The wicked Jews. The wicked blacks. The wicked Lamanites. The wicked coffee drinkers. The wicked people who drink alcohol. The wicked who don't pay tithing. The wicked people with beards. The wicked music. The wicked apostates. The wicked people who question authority. The list is endless. Us vs. them. We are right and they are wrong.

When will it ever end?

Here is me jesting, | 1:25 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Robb, "It appears there is nothing I could say that would help you enjoy a more lighthearted approach to life. No doubt you find unintended offense in many places. Though this may offend you, you will be in my prayers."

I am very light-hearted with things that should be taken lightly. This is not one of them. I laugh and joke with my friends and family but you are neither my friend or my family and neither is Johnston so I don't have intention of getting to nonsensical and pointless banter. You a free to pray for me as much as you wish because I will be praying that you will stop being a rude jerk and fake. Note the sarcasm when I say this is my way of bantering!!!

Anonymous | 1:38 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I loved this article!

And I agree with 'anonymous'
Why do the evangelicals get to decide what a Christian is?

russ | 1:33 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

to Alex Part 3.
Yah lost me. In Christianity grace is God loving you. No encombards. Just God loves you. You can be a jerk, a cad, a cheater, a butt-head! You can openly sin or hides your sins. God still loves you and calls you. All fall short.

This unconditional love is just that: unconditional. There are no works or deeds. It is called love. It has been the basis of Christianity since... well... since Christ.

Some saved sinners get so worked up over this newly found love and forgiveness that they do deeds. But God loves them no matter what they do or don't do. Through Christ, all are saved. No deeds, no works, just unconditional love.

It is hard concept to put your arms around if you have been brought up otherwise. But once you know that God is love then all is well. You will sin every day and fall short, but you are called home and God opens the door with love.

As I said, it is a hard concept to put yours arms around if you have been brought up to be deed oriented. The Lord has no such restrictions.

He loves us.

Mike | 1:36 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The born agains believe that I'm going to hell. My reply to them is always, at least I'll be with good believing people instead of smug, self righteous, Pharisees like you. Jesus will get so sick of you that he will spend his time visiting with us poor cultists.

Anonymous | 1:47 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

My wife was Southern Baptist Evangelical before we married in the St. George temple.

100 people | 1:57 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Wow, over a 100 comments from people who proved, immediately, that they totally missed the point of the article.

Neat!

SLC gal | 2:06 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

You wouldn't use smug to define Mike Huckabee? Someone needs to slap him.

Alex | 2:07 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

russ:

Of course He loves me! As proof of His absolute love, he is not content to save me in my sins (give me a pass), but to actually save me from them (to change me and perfect me). He not only wants to waive the penalty, but he actually wants to sanctify us too!

Steve from CA | 2:10 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I am not the least offended that people in other churches feel that I do not fall within their definition of "Christian" based on what church I belong to. If they looked at my life, my words, how I treat others, and concluded that I could not be a Christian, then that would concern me. But I spent two years (and many since) trying to tell others that every church but mine was NOT the true church. For those who do not accept that message, but hold to their own beliefs, to accept that mine are correct would be apostasy. The last thing I would want to see would be the LDS Church as just another brand on the shelf. I think that many people in the LDS Church of late are getting all lathered up over nothing. Will our Church be truer if Baptists admit we are Christians? Wasn't the message to Joseph Smith in the grove, in effect, that he was not intended to fall within the prevailing definition of "Christianity?" I would sooner have people think I am not a Christian but believe I act like one than think I am and wonder why I don't.

Jaywhiz | 2:21 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Questions ...

Where does the "Mormons are not Christians, they are a cult" idea fit into this dialogue? Isn't this a judgement that will be done by one ("whose shoe latchet we are unworthy ...)mightier than us all?

If so, then Jerry's "love thy neighbor, we can agree to disagree" undertone seems appropos. Let's all live the Golden Rule and get along.

The "Mormons are cultists" comment does rankle a bit -- I have to wonder, does it have a foundation in the 'count my sheep' battle for converts?

And where does the Nicene Creed fit into the whole shebang?

It has been said that a camel is a horse designed by a committee. Isn't the Nicene Creed (in its many forms, starting in 325 AD and ending with the most recent version written in 2006 by the Lutheran Church -- see wikipedia for details) a description of God drafted by a committee?

As the King of Siam said to Anna, "It is a puzzlement!"

I think Jesus Christ said "Loving people who are just like you is easy ... love those who are not like you!" or something like that!

Pope Benedict XVI | 2:16 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I regret to inform all you enthusiastic Mormons and Evangelicals that your petty squabbles over labels are meaningless. You are all apostates from the one and only true Holy Roman Catholic Church, and are no better off than the Jews and the Muslims. Sorry. Better luck next religion.

DC | 2:18 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I've never looked at the choice to follow Christianity or religion in general as a choice between right and wrong. I've always seen it as a choice between good, better, and best. I feel that my chosen faith gives me the best understanding of God's purpose and desire for me not only in this life but throughout the eternities. The more I understand and know about His purposes and desires for his children on earth the more dedicated I can be to living by His guidelines and obeying His rules. I would never tell another member of another faith he or she was wrong. If they are following Christ's example they are not wrong, I would simply suggest there is more to discover and learn about Him and His work and our responsibilities as his desciples, much of which is in the Bible. However, anyone who has done any scholarly study of the Holy Bible knows it is not a complete record in it's modern form. If you rely on an incomplete record you will have incomplete information and knowledge. Not wrong but not completely right either.

porky | 2:29 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

sad that after thousands and thousands of years humanity is still warring (both physical & mental) over religion.

Steve | 2:37 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

If evangelical Christians and Mormons sought to understand each other, instead of passively accepting what they are told about each other, the bridge would be gaped. However, their seems a big blockade of pride and preconceptions. Half-truths, mis-information, distortions and outright lies are accepted as fact by persons who falsely believe that they know everything that there is to know about the other group.I have found much widely-accepted info. concerning both groups is false or distorted.

Richard | 2:39 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I love my non-mormon friends, who live their religions the best they can. Despite differences we can and do respect each other. Most of my co-workers are not members of the church (18 of 20- and I hired them all!), but these are my best friends in this world outside of my family. They consider me to be a true christian by the way I treat and trust them. This is way I measure whether someone is a christian or not- not based on some real doctrinal differences. Besides you never get ahead arguing with another- just by living the way you should. Thanks

Ellen | 2:41 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The article really was enjoyable. The comments also were interesting. I have been living in the "Bible Belt" for the last two years and have chuckled to myself how little people know about the LDS faith and how very little tolerance they have for other religions other than their own. I had a very ecumenical childhood. One doesn't need to have a degree in theology to understanding the "Gospel". One only has to know Christ and keep his commandments and understand what the restoration is all about. We need to keep in mind that there is a higher power with all the answers and to trust in His plan.

Anonymous | 2:54 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Ryan, When evangelicals tell you that you are going to hell for your beliefs, yeah, they are doing it for YOUR own good.

Not in my Bible | 2:51 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Faith without works is dead being alone. I saw an evangelical rip James chapter 2 out of his Bible and exclaim "That's not in my Bible."

Greg | 2:52 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Sigh. Why don't we all just decide to agree that Evangelicals believe in the traditional, "creedal" Christianity, and Mormons believe in a "restored" Christianity and be done with it already.......

Another part of the problem | 2:58 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The ï¿½us vs. themï¿½ dichotomy is an inherent part of Mormon beliefs. Mormonism is the one and only true church. It is led by the one and only prophet, who is the only one who has all of the keys of the priesthood. If you want to be with your family after you die, you must join the Mormon Church. The Mormon Church is the only Church that performs ordinances necessary for salvation that are recognized by God as valid.

Hard to bridge that.

to: part of the problem | 3:14 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Yes it is hard to bridge that for us mortals. Good thing the Savior can do it with perfect mercy, grace and justice.

Why do we try so hard to explain things in ways we feel we can solve them. Only Christ can save us - not ourselves. I think Mormons and Evangelicals both believe that.

I'm going to hell :o] | 3:15 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

My mother-inlaw is a Baptist, and she HATES Mormons! She says we are the church of the devil and that we are going to hell. I once gave her a book of Mormon and she literally burned it in her trash can. She said if I ever gave her another one she would do the same. She is very hostile towards the LDS church and blames me for her daughter joining the Mormons. My mom inlaw says I am taking myself and her daughter straight to hell in the worst way possible. We are not aloud to bring up our LDS religion in their house whatsoever. We are pretty much just outcasts.

Saved Christian to Mormon | 3:21 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Nice article. I was saved in Christ and became a Christian. A few months later I took the LDS missionary discussions and was baptized. Did I undo my being saved because of my works? Christians live in ignorance of the living Christ that Mormons worship. Its revelation from a loving Father. I love being saved. I love God's more sure word through His current prophets that teach being saved is a gift unearned, and its not enough for a fulness of joy of God's love.

Keith | 3:16 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

To Russ: I agree that God is love and wants the best for His children. However, the assumption you make disregards much of Christ's teachings. To the adulterer he said, "Go and sin no more." To others he said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments." If God gives us commandments as guidlines then what you propose contadicts the very teachings of the Bible. As a token of our gratitude for the gift of Grace that he offers we commit to keep the commandments to the best of our ability. Why? BECAUSE WE LOVE HIM! Keeping the commandments allows us to live so as to be instruments in the Lord's hands.

So, what you are saying is that if I want to be saved, I accept Christ as my personal Savior without regard to the commandments or my personal conduct in relation to them. Grace supercedes repentance as well since God loves me so much He has already decided to save me in spite of myself.
Don't the scriptures tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Paul taught that we should be careful that we not fall from Grace.

I choose to keep the commandments.

Jose Kanyusi | 3:21 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The word "evangelical" means those who out and evangelize, meaning preach the gospel. Mormons usually prefer the term "to proselyte" though that is not actually a verb, the verb form being proselytize. Whatever, it is the same thing. Mormons are the most evangelical Christians of the bunch. Then there are the other evangelical Christians, and then the non-evangelical types that do not actively engage in missionary work.

Sinner | 3:32 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Are we all talking about the same Jesus? When Jesus was asked, ï¿½What is the greatest commandmentï¿½? He basically said love God and love your neighbor as yourself. I sure wish all you aspiring Christians arguing over words, interpretations, who is right and who is wrong would remember his answer to that very important question!

Mormon Version of "Works" | 3:29 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

One of the differences with "Mormon Works" versus others is that Mormons spend a ton of time telling each other what they must DO and what will happen if they DON'T. At a minimun this leads to the conclusion that works are extremely important in Mormonism often even more than faith in Christ or the atonement. Mormonism has a LONG list of requirements for temple attendance, missionary service or otherwise being considered a worthy member of the Church and much of that list requires regular reporting back to Bishops or other leaders as to whether you are completing that long list. This is not usually the case is the real faith-based Christian churches. It is hard to make the argument that Mormons don't do their works largely out of pressure, guilt or requirement rather than out of love or a faith in the Savior.

Alex | 3:45 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Saved Christian to Mormon:

"I was saved in Christ and became a Christian. A few months later I took the LDS missionary discussions and was baptized. Did I undo my being saved because of my works? "

Bingo. If transgression can't undo your salvation according to Evangelical doctrine, then becoming a member of the LDS church can't either. Wouldn't telling you that you need to leave the Mormon church to find salvation be like telling you that Christ's grace is insufficient? God loves us, Mormon and all.

Mormon in IL | 4:19 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Just one more comment to add to the pile...

I think the whole problem Mormons have with not being called "Christian" isn't so much that we want to be included, or need some sort of validation. Inclusion is great, and if we can find some common ground and work together, fabulous. But more significantly, it's that calling us "non-Christian" requires a very special definition of Christianity which is usually conveniently omitted in discussions like these. Uninformed parties take that to mean "oh, Mormons don't follow Christ." That in turn creates more misunderstandings and confusion.

Why do you suppose the whole "different Jesus" argument has arisen? To try to narrow down that definition. And that in turn has created more misunderstandings and confusion. We're just trying to counteract that, we're not trying to crash anyone's party.

God will judge | 4:22 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I think anyone who believes in God and lives a righteous life no matter what religion he/she may be will be saved. God looks to what is in the hearts of all men and how a person lives ones life. So many in all religions are shallow at heart, and as soon as they leave church on Sunday they turn into demons. So I suppose in the long run it will be all up to God to look seriously at each individual and decide who will and who will not enter his kingdom. It will not be our decision. We are not given that power of judgement. Although some people seem to think they are some kind of God here on earth... Not good thinking.

Jack | 4:39 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Interesting article. The spirit will touch hearts and melt them together. Only, and only, when the teachings of Christ are taught by the spirit will there be a true conversion. It is impossible to kindly or outwardly debate a person into the waters of baptism.

Truth -Sayer | 4:46 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I have yet to see where those of "evangelical persuasion" believe that "good works" are not to be done. I have yet to see where evangelicals compare their good works with another's in another religion.

Evangelicals, at least the ones I know, believe "good works' are a result of Salvation and not the means of Salvation. Both Mormons and evangelicals believe in good works---the difference's between the Mormon faith and the evangelical assertion is simple: Evangelicals believe good works are a result of Salvation and Mormon's believe it is "the way" to Salvation.

Jesus said, "I AM THE TRUTH, THE LIFE AND THE WAY." Is there any other way? The way I see it,comparing "good works" is counter-Christian---it smacks of self-rightousness and is sinful behavior.

Good works are good, but they do not produce Salvation---it's like putting "the cart in front of the horse!"

If the LDS people could see this truth they would spare themselves much sorrow. "The Truth" is found in Jesus Christ only---he is the embodiment of all truth and fullilled the "whole law" through his supreme sacrifice on the Cross.

The "Agape Love" spoken of in scripture fulfills the whole law. Practice Love!

Both Have Requirements | 4:52 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

In reality both LDS and Evangelical/Christian teachings have requirements for salvation. LDS requirements for the highest kingdom are largely based on completing certain requirements whether in this life or the next. Evangelical is based on faith. Both require concerted action and both assume they best understand God's requirements for salvation. One thing I will say about the LDS version - they believe everyone will have another chance to accept the truth after death and that only a very few will actually go to hell no matter their belief or actions in this life. Evangelicals believe this life is your one shot and the millions who do not profess belief will go to hell. I have a lot of struggles and doubts about LDS history and doctrine but I can never accept that a loving God truly will send those who do not profess belief in him in this life will go to hell - that to me is the epitome of unchristian.

Better to talk | 5:02 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

If this article teaches anything, it is that words are ALWAYS better than fists or weapons. Imagine how different places like Northern Ireland would be if they followed that counsel.

Roger | 5:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

If Jesus came back to earth today what church would he join, he would continue his membership in the Jewish church. He didn't apostatize from his Jewish faith he only tried to enforce its proper practice and reform the corrupt officials. Not too different from what needs doing in our government today.

RE: Both Have Requirements | 5:21 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I wish all LDS people thought like you. The the church would be perfect. You have a good point of view. I like it. Thanks 8o)

russ | 5:32 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

to Rev. Erthein: very well said. You sound like a fine leader. Being calm and such when discussing things felt deeply is a rare trait.

I probably would enjoy a sermon or two from you. And a chance to talk about life and death.

Wish I lived in Pennsylvania.

Keep the faith.

observer | 5:52 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I'm weary of people of any denomination (including my own) who claim to be "religious." All of them think they're doing a good deed by pointing out how wrong someone else's beliefs are. People who claim to "know that they know" bother me, no matter how pure their motives.
I prefer nice people, who treat others with consideration and respect. I couldn't care less if they go to church or not, which church they go to, or if they go at all. Nice article.

Alex | 5:49 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Both Have Requirements:

You made the point I was making. Effort is required but insufficient to obtain salvation for both Evangelical and Mormon Christianity.

Red Bull | 6:12 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

To Observer,
I'M WITH YOU COMPLETELY!!!!

ROBERT | 6:32 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I thought the article represented both sides views quite well. Many times Evangelicals are called anti-Mormon because they share the dramatic differences between traditional Christianity and Mormonism. Evangelicals believe that these difference have eternal consquenses and therefore are viewed by the LDS as being persecuted.

Let me ask you this, if you were walking by a lake and saw someone drowning, would you walk on by or would you try and help them? Would you swim out to them or maybe throw them a lifeline? Of course you would because you know that if no ones helps them they will drown to death.

This is all we Evangelicals are trying to do, is to throw our LDS friends a lifeline because we see them drowning in their doctrines and we care about their eternity.

When the LDS missionaries knock on my door, I don't call them anti-Christian. I invite them in for a cold drink and a friendly conversation about eternity.

Huh | 6:53 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

What is an ex-evangelical LDS? Why aren't you an Evangelical Christian? Should I be saying I'm an ex-Methodist instead of a Mormon? May I'll get less criticized...or MAYBE it will just let me stir up people...that would be fun!

Misunderstood | 6:57 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The point of the article was not to prove one religion right or debase another. It was merely to point out what many posts have tried to do is wrong. You can not convince a "true believer" mormon or evangelical that their position is wrong.

Religious denominations spend way too much time defending themselves and attacking each other.
Time that could be better spent doing good for others.

I think the author is terrific and look forward to reading more of his articles

alex lover | 7:05 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Alex is officially the wisest person I know. Best comment in the history of comments!

Rachel | 7:59 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

To Roger, I think you are right, so what are all these different churchs fighting over, if they want to be in Jesus's church they need to join the Jewish religion.

Strong in my beliefs | 8:03 p.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I was raised as child to believe that the Methodist church was the only true church on the earth. Then later I learned through all my prayers, and search for the truth, and true religion, that it was truly the Lutheran church all along. I looked into LDS before hand and the people before I joined the Lutherans, and low in behold...my spirit said LUTHERAN was the one. IT IS THE TRUE CHURCH OF GOD!

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