Deseret News | 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Jerry Johnston: 'Smug' Mormon takes on 'brazen' evangelical

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Betsy | 12:25 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I agree His vote is the only that counts.

omi won kenobi | 1:05 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Loved this!!!!!!!!!!Respect and dignity displayed as one of it's best.

Texas Cougar | 5:25 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

This was a great read! I almost felt as if I were reading a C. S. Lewis "Screwtape Letters" derivative. I have the opportunity to have similar conversations on a regular basis with my Evangelical friends and neighbors. I tell them that they can tell me that I am not a good Evangelical and be right, but, that they walk on very shakey ground when they tell me that I am not a Christian. I go on to say to them, that I would never judge them on their Christianity, and that I believe only Christ can judge me on my Christianity. I hope you write more on this topic. We need to learn how to better understand each other.

Comments continue below

Mohan | 5:32 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

This is good. In a lot of ways we are the same. A great deal of the conflict is semantics. We see the same words, we believe in the same words, but we each apply different meanings to those same words. We are not in a competition, yet sometimes we think we are. It's like the two friends who walk side by side all the while just picking up the pace oh so slightly so that either might just arrive at the destination before the other until both are in a footrace. I love my evangelical friends, but I also love my Mormon friends. I just wish I understood them better and I wish they understood me better.

I am just so indebted to my savior Jesus Christ, yet so are they. He makes it possible for one as sinful as me to be forgiven. He now guides my actions. If I do do good, it is because of Him. So am I a good evangelical, or a good Mormon. Actually, I am a Christian.

Lee | 5:40 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

My next door neighbor is evangelical, and brazen is the best word for them. They are self appointed judges of our eternal destination. They think it is their calling to save the unsaved, and that includes everyone but them.

Todd C. Norfolk VA | 5:52 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Evangelicals do control the right, however, they are becoming wise to what it means to be truly christian and American. You don't vote for people JUST because they adhere to your religious views. You pick the best person to represent your hopes and ideals for your country. I was thrilled to see the changes that occurred in the evangelical vote after Iowa. Iowa is politics of the past.

blind and blind | 5:59 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Funny. One has their "better book", that is not the Bible, the other does not know the Bible or follow it. You can not make a point about a subject you know almost nothing about!

mormon in the south | 5:54 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Excellent article that accurately addresses and observes the interchange between evangelicals and mormons. It describes most all of my interaction with the faithful evangelicals. They are really good people and have absolute recognition of Christ and his saving sacrifice and grace. They really don't see the whole process as a two way road though. It is all Christ and no believer.... The thought of the principle of a "covenant" would be a promise for God to save us and humans are quite passive in this covenant after "accepting the grace of God". I love talking the bible with them because it is so refreshing and confirming the principles we understand from the scriptures and prophets both modern and ancient.

Smilin' & shakin' my head!! | 6:18 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I am smiling because this article is SO TRUE!

We just had an experience in the "east" where the same accusations were hurled (by "Christians") at my 16 yr old daughter, that were hurled at The Prophet Joseph (over 170 years ago). In fact, I wondered if the tar and feathers were next!

I recieved the special edition of the Ensign yesterday; It is wonderful!! As I read through it I wondered would it do any good to send it to some of these "Christians" who verbally attacked my daughter? Probably not.

Some enjoy the state of ignorance they are in and actually prefer it that way!

I think of the words of the Savior to his Apostles, Remember before they hated you they hated me!

A branch in northern Maine this summer was not allow to participate in a softball tournament to which all "Christian" faiths were invited!
Reason.... they were a cult of course!!

Texas Mormon | 6:19 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Thanks Jerry for a wonderful essay. As a high school English teacher I encourage my students to appreciate excellent writing whatever it might be found even when something so controversial as personal faith is discussed. Beyond the excellent writing, it was exceptionally insightful. Living in Baptist country, I never cease to be amazed at the intolerance of those who claim to be so tolerant. The Jesus I love taught us not to judge yet in their "sinful state" they sit in judgment of me/us every day. But, as Jerry points out, don't try to engage them in this or any other inconsistency. They know they are right and that's all that counts.

Brad | 6:21 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I agree with the comment made by Marvin J Ashton a few years ago, "I wonder just how Christian it is to call someone Un-Christian".
We need to try to treat all people like our Savior would regardless of their faith.

lamonte | 6:21 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Jerry - this is excellent. I agree with your style, approach and every thought you express. Thanks for sharing this experience.

George C | 6:46 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Wonderful article, sounds like you have a great friend. I've often thought it is a great skill to "agree to disagree," with a friend and remain civil friends. We can all learn from both of you!

ex-lds evangelical | 6:58 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I really appreciated this writers ending word about how true believers aren't going to be able to unite heart wise on heart issues. . .we can't, simply put. However, he greatly mis-stated what true evangelicals believes when he said they believe people don't do anything. It is true the focus is on Jesus, what He's done and is doing, but that doesn't mean a true believer doesn't do anything, in fact, a true believer, I submit, would do far more than a LDS believer, but the focus is always, always on Christ who does the work and not the believer who lets it be done through them. And, all glory goes to God--because really and truly He does the work.

Joni | 7:06 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

The title had me worried, but this is one of the most eloquent articles I've read dealing with religious differences. I've always thought we should be respectful and civil with one another, while acknowledging that we "can never join hearts" as the author said.

Michael | 7:09 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

In either case, while I like what I read, I wish both of their attitudes (positive about their faith) would extend to those of us who don't follow either of their religions (as in Jewish). Both of them would have tried to convince me that the only way to heaven would be to become an apostate to my faith and follow theirs.

Christian | 7:15 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Christians don't believe in "dead works." They are opportunities to witness for Christ. First and foremost you are saved by His grace. These "works" just aren't the prerequisite to get to heaven or ascend to different levels. In a nutshell, you don't have to do works, you get to.

DeLaval Millker | 7:10 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

That's the great thing about religion. We all claim adherence to absolute truth, with no proof to offer. Then, we judge and evaluate others based on our beliefs, and they always come up short.
Wouldn't it be great if we could bring this into politics?

SCJ | 7:12 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

"Wringing your hands over being accepted by other religions is a waste of a good pair of hands. Better to use them to hold to your ideals. Let the Founder sort it all out."

That says it all.

Ray | 7:21 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Wonderful, Jerry. I have had the same basic conversation over and over again, and I agree wholeheartedly with the main themes. We might never see things the same way, but there's no good reason we can't be civil and cooperative and friends.

Bravadere | 7:23 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Well done!! Nothing like a civil religious war to keep the debate going.

Johnston comments are offensive | 7:34 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

As a Mormon I find this article to be offensive, condescending and demeaning towards Mormons and people of other faiths. Mr. Johnston writes "I suppose it's why our faiths are natural rivals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints sends thousands into the world to show people they can live better lives. Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do."

I have met my fair share of evangelicals and don't agree with them yet the statement that they send out "thousands to tell people it doesn't what they do" is a blatant distortion of their views and is bigotry at its worst. I want evangelicals who read this article to know Johnston doesn't speak for all Mormons. Some of us are decent people who respect our differences and won't distort your religious views for our own gain. This can't be said of Mr. Johnston yet every religion has its bad apples so please don't judge us based on our bad apples.

Nor is Mr. Johnston's views on the role of works, faith and grace a correct understanding of Mormon doctrine and our Jesus shows up in all scriptures and not just the gospels.

MINNIE | 7:35 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

EXCELLENT! Another thought provoking, heart warming, treatis by Jerry. THANKS!

Lynette | 7:31 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I enjoyed this article very much! Excellent!

To blind and blind, | 7:31 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

You are what I like to call a "hit & run" responder. You disagree with someone's view but don't have the intelligence to respond why, so you hit with a meaningless statement and then quickly run without any explanation of logic.
Your contribution to the comments in such an article are as meaningless as your statement.

Rob | 7:38 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Good insight. I enjoyed learning this.

Ryan | 7:46 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Lee,

You say that evangelicals feel like it's their responsiblility to save the unsaved. What about Mormons? Last time I checked the LDS Church had 50,000 people around the world trying to do do the same thing.

Other Christian faiths don't believe that Mormons are any more "wrong" than Mormons feel they're "wrong."

Stop pretending like the LDS church is always the picked on one and never the aggressor. They spend millions of dollars a year disrespecting other people culture and religion through missionary work.

The obvious response is, "we're doing it for their own good, and we're not trying to offend any one."

My response, evangelicals think they're doing you a favor. They don't want you to go to hell.

To be honest, I don't like how either of you handle things.

JWK | 7:51 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

A wonderful article. As an ex-evangelical LDS I have often considered 'dead works' those things that we did yesterday. Christ told us to do as he has done and to love one another. If actions are works, then we are commanded to do the good 'works' of Christ.

Understanding Paul and those that he was writing to we come to know that 'dead works' are those works that are done without thought, rote offerings that do nothing but make us feel good. The works of Christ are done with thoughtfulness, thankfulness, and love of service to our fellow beings. That is what makes them 'living works', which are done without thought of personal benefit.

When reading and understanding scripture we must see the whole gospel instead of the gospel we quote from chosen verses.

mk | 8:06 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I am a good person.
I can say that and feel ok with it.
Do I sin? yes, because, I am human.
what makes me a good person is that I try to learn from my mistakes and overcome them and do better the next time.
These people who call themselves christian and then treat people as if they are our judges need to wake up and not just read their bible but they need to open their hearts and minds to try and understand what is whas that Jesus taught.
He taught love and repentance and being good to your neighbor.
He did NOT teach that it was ok to sin and as long as you "believe" in him than you are saved.
We must LIVE like him to the best of our ability.
These people need to realize that they are making his sacrifice in the garden trivial.
If all we had to do was "believe" then there would be no need for repentance.
He TAUGHT repentance he did not just preach it.

DLG | 8:06 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Chrisitanity in all its forms are a complete waste of time.
Wake up!

AC | 8:19 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

When has the LDS church and there missionaries ever disrespected other peoples culture and religion. Please!! We give to years of our lives trying to help people know Christ better and live his teachings. We embrace peoples "CULTURE" and we learn their language to try and help them. Missionary work is all out of love for the lord and for our brothers who may not not the truth about Jesus Christ. We are very respectful people, and I know that the young men who serve missions are very respectful, or they wouldn't be in a different country when they are 19. Your comment was very disrespectful!

EZ Goin | 8:14 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Some folks seem to be taking offense to this article, and I don't quite see why. This was a light-hearted look at something that has gone on for years and will continue to go on for years. I liked the tone because it showed what I've found to be true--you can disagree with someone on religion and still respect each other. Well written!

Brock | 8:15 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Once again, Jerry, you completely misrepresented Evangelical Christianity. Like so many Mormons, you create a straw-man argument, then shoot down the straw-man and congratulate yourself on having "defeated the enemy". What self-delusion. What a tragic loss of opportunity for insights into a rich theology older than Mormonism.

To a degree, that is understandable. Like most Mormons, most Evangelicals don't truly understand their own history and doctrine. And so when you get a ï¿½smugï¿½ Mormon without a degree in theology bickering with a ï¿½brazenï¿½ evangelical without a degree in theology, you end up with what you described, which is much like two children arguing over whose dad can beat up the otherï¿½s. Neither of them really understand what they are talking about.
As one who DOES have a degree in theology, but who lacks space in this comment section for a full treatment, let me just say that you were farthest off and most ï¿½full of strawï¿½ when you said, ï¿½Evangelicals send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do.ï¿½ That is almost as misleading and distorted as Hollandï¿½s gross mischaracterization of the Trinitarian doctrine in General Conference! I hope Journalist ethics prompts you to repent.

ello | 8:25 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

This is a good example of why I don't go to church. I don't care what religion it is, it is all the same "better than you" attitude that anyone with a brain can detect.
And to all the LDS people posting about their "difficult" encounters with the evengelics, now you know what it is like for the rest of the world when mormons show up and be-little their beleifs. Mormons do this more than anyone else. I know, I did it for two years just like you.

Ernest T. Bass | 8:32 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

One of them is right, the other is wrong.

Gordon | 8:27 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

An excellent piece Lee. Living outside of Utah I run into this type of conversation regularly and it never ceases to amaze me the utter disdain evangelicals have for Mormons. There's no Christian love there--only disdain and disgust. That's the difference in the way Mormons generally treat other faiths. We're not perfect, and we often come across as pedantic and judgmental, but usually the intent is to appreciate, to welcome and to help.

I, for one, will refrain from hand wringing anymore.

Barry | 8:35 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Ryan, chill out. No one said that LDS always say they're picked on. This wasn't an essay on whether the LDS Church or Evangelicals are right or wrong. This was an essay on how two people with opposing viewpoints can get along, and agree to disagree, and remain friends. I have friends that are Democrats. We verbally "spar" all of the time. Life's too short to be angry all of the time.

To Hit and RUN | 8:37 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

It is not a matter of adding comment, on some subjects like personal religious thought there is not real content for comment because there is no prove of content. It is all just a matter of opinion and wishful thinking. Sit back and listen to what your neigbors have to say and you might learn something new about them and yourself.

Jason | 8:34 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

TO RYAN:

Lighten Up! This was a great article

My Opinion | 8:35 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

My opinion is that the "ex-lds evangelical" is right, and I'm LDS. We believe everyone was born with the light of Christ, which leads us to do good. That means, even in the LDS understanding of things, Christ DOES get the glory for all good things done. We just have to do a better job of remembering that.

And as a convert to the LDS Church, I never felt my religion or culture was disrespected by the missionaries. They showed great respect for it. I just had to realize that religion and culture are ultimately a choice that everyone makes, and not hereditary traits. I can't speak for anyone else, but the missionaries 1. Won't tell you you're going to hell (Maybe some do, and if they do then they're wrong), 2. Invite people to ask God if what they say is true (which I did and it worked, and for which I accept no credit). Don't just take their word for what they say.

Minnesota Prayer | 8:45 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

As a mormon I don't get it. Pastor Joel Osteen tells me all I have to say is this short prayer and if I say it I have been saved. So if I say that prayer and still do good works why am I still not considered a christian. Can some one please explain that to me.

A Christian | 8:47 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

When I say, "I am a Christian"I'm not shouting "I'm clean livin'" I'm whispering, I was lost, now I'm found and forgiven." When I say I am a Christian"I don't speak of this with pride. I'm confesing that I stumble and need Christ to be my guide. When I say "I am a Christian I,m not claiming to be perfect. My flaws are far to visible but,God beleives I am worth it. When I say I am a Christian I'm not holier than thou, I', just a simple sinner who received God's grace,somehow!

diligentdave | 8:46 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

It is interesting how evangelicals, and some of the other 'traditional Christians' (TCs) have so over-emphasized "grace" to the exclusion of obedience and works. On the other hand, I sometimes think that we in the LDS Church under appreciated, if not under emphasize (at least at the local level), the "grace" part of things.
Jerry's reference to Paul's words as found mostly in his epistles (to me, an implication that many TC's, evangelicals especially) not only overshadow, but usurp the authority of Jesus' words found in the Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke & John).
For example, Jesus didn't say ï¿½judge them by their doctrinesï¿½. In Jesus' parable of the "Good Samaritan", as pointed out elsewhere in the account of Jesus' ministry, Samaritans "know not what (they) worship(ped)"-- hence, their doctrine was wrong. Rather, it was by their "fruits" (i.e., works) that one is to be judged.

Ryan | 8:56 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Interesting comments by all. I enjoyed the article as it has described similar encounters I have had. The bottom line in my mind is that people of faith mostly live up to that faith. One of my fondest memories of Pres. Hinckley is when he said, on many occasions, and I paraphrase, "We don't want to take away from the good of a person who joins the church. We want to take the good and see if we can add a little more good to it" There is much good in all faiths, and they are our brothers and sisters. The message of the Church of Jesus Christ is that we want to share a little more good, revealed by God with others and let them decide for them selves.

Robb | 8:54 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I think the Mormon who found Jerry's comments offensive completely missed the tone of the article. The conversation was presented as light-hearted banter between two strongly religious people who know they disagree and take good-humored potshots at one another.

The "send out thousands to tell people it doesn't matter what they do" comment was part of the interplay. It certainly wasn't meant to be taken literally; it was an obvious oversimplification delivered in jest.

Having a sense of humor about our points of disagreement can help us be friends and focus less on points of contention. I think that Savior would certainly approve of that.

Great job, Brother Johnson! And to my Mormon friend who found the article offensive, you'll be happier if you'll lighten up a little and not take things so literally.

Lame story | 9:03 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

While reading this story all I could think of was, blah blah blah blah blah blah

blah blah blah

Sinner

Blah blah blah.

Boring!

Coug in PA | 8:59 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I liked this Article. If anything, I hope it reminds all of us to learn to be more tolerant of each others and to truely "love our neighbors." That is after all, the greatest commandment.

Rev. John Erthein, Erie, PA | 8:59 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

An LDS friend forwarded me this article and I enjoyed reading it. As an evangelical pastor, however, I find Mr. Johnston's understanding of evangelicalism insufficient. Evangelicalism is a much broader stream of belief than indicated in this article. I was born and raised in the Episcopal Church and now pastor a congregation in the Presbyterian Church (USA)(although I frequently ask myself if this is a Reformed denomination anymore .... but that's another topic). And I do not know of ANY evangelical who would deny that faith in Christ indeed is reflected in good works. But that is the key: faith precedes good works. We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. We respond joyfully by performing works pleasing to God. But it is monumental folly to think we can possibly win God's favor or salvation by working hard enough, or observing the right rituals or sacraments or whatever.

There are many LDS members and evangelicals who are interested in real theological dialog. There is indeed much more to discuss than is suggested in Mr. Johnston's article, although I appreciate its gentle tone.

Anonymous | 9:02 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

Funny how evangelicals get to be the ones who decide what a "Christian" is.

Anonymous | 9:07 a.m. Feb. 28, 2008

I agree with Ryan.
Thanks, Ryan

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