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Debate resumes over illegal immigrants' status in LDS Church
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John Lambert | 1:24 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I think church members need to stop treating people who have fled the
oppresion of foriegn lands where the United States has been funding oppresion as
sinners.
Remember Elder Uchtdorf's family fled East Germany illegally.
I think we need to advocate a compasionate policy where we not only say in Church that all men are equally God's children but embrace this idea in our politics. Why is it ok for us to live in a rich and prosperous nation and deney our borhters and sisters these blessings. I would say that anti-immigration feelings are anathema to the gospel. They are built on the theory that we have more rights to the blessings we recieve than others of God's children. I reject these ideas and think we should end all restrictions on immigration based on quotas.
It may be true that some people should be kept out because they are dangers to our society. However, always remember that we are not after Jorge Bin Laden. Even here in Metro-Detroit where many of our immigrants are from Iraq other mid-east nations I do not fear immigrants. The most recent wave of Iraqi refugees tend to be Christians fleeing violence in Iraq.
Remember Elder Uchtdorf's family fled East Germany illegally.
I think we need to advocate a compasionate policy where we not only say in Church that all men are equally God's children but embrace this idea in our politics. Why is it ok for us to live in a rich and prosperous nation and deney our borhters and sisters these blessings. I would say that anti-immigration feelings are anathema to the gospel. They are built on the theory that we have more rights to the blessings we recieve than others of God's children. I reject these ideas and think we should end all restrictions on immigration based on quotas.
It may be true that some people should be kept out because they are dangers to our society. However, always remember that we are not after Jorge Bin Laden. Even here in Metro-Detroit where many of our immigrants are from Iraq other mid-east nations I do not fear immigrants. The most recent wave of Iraqi refugees tend to be Christians fleeing violence in Iraq.
CJem | 1:23 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Christ criticized the pharisees who put obedience to law above compassion/
charity for others. We are blessed to live in this great, very rich country.
The lesson of the scriptures is to be compassionate to those who are not so
blessed. That appears to be the message of the representatives of the various
churches referenced in the article. I don't know but I suspect when the
final judgment spoken of in the scriptures comes around, the level of a
person's compassion for others will be more important than the level of
his/her obedience to the immigration law of the land.
Comments continue below
Mike | 1:56 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
What Elder Jensen seems to not know is that trespassing is a crime! If someone
comes into my house uninvited you can be sure I'm going to call the police
and have them removed from my home. The LDS church doesn't really seem to
be serious about its members "obeying the law".
Bizman | 2:05 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm a Mormon who hires illegals for my cleaning business. I do it for the
money, but now I can see it as compassionate, too.
Migra man | 5:47 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
When LDS illegal aliens use counterfeit S.S. cards and fraudulent ID's to
obtain employment, lie to their employers alleging that they are in the country
legally and have permission to work, and live a life of duplicity, then as a
fellow Church member I have serious problems with these folks being accepted
with open arms as though everything is fine and we're supposed to just look
the other way. We CAN'T have it both ways and a lot of TOUGH LOVE is
needed NOW! Go back home and get your situation straight!
John in FL | 6:04 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Thinking about the changes I have made in my life since my baptism 31 years ago,
I see that being "squeaky clean" at the recommend interview has been a
positive force in my life. I have been taught that if I disagree with a law, I
first of all obey it and then I try to change it. Can it be justified that
"the law just isn't fair or right"? I really doubt that "it
seemed right at the time" will fly on judgment day. My wife and I have
served 2 Spanish missions and we love Latin people. I hate to think about
sending people back into a situation where the big worry in a person's life
is how to get enough money to feed my family. But does that justify breaking
the law? I think our compassion should inspire us to do something more than
"do nothing".
compassion | 6:38 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
comes in the form of helping others help themselves and improve their inherent
situation. The perpetual education fund was established so that those in less
fortunate circumstances can get an education and improve their lives and the
general standard of living in thier home countries. If we allow them to come
here and stay here illegally, all we are doing is facilitating sycophancy, which
helps neither the sycophant or their home country.
Anonymous | 6:41 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
If our elder brother Jesus Christ praised the kind deed of a smaratan to help a
Jew who was in need. I See no reason why we shouldn�t
baptize illegal immigrants who are hard working and responsible and believe the
same value as us. Is this question posted only for discussion or trying to
divide us in the name of privilege?
Steven Yu Canada
Steven Yu Canada
JWK | 6:50 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I agree that we must be compassionate in our approach but I also agree that the
law must be followed. Therefore, if we arrest illegal immigrants we can treat
them compassionately as we deport them. While they are here we can be civil as
well as stepping up to help in time of disaster and true need but they must
understand that if they are arrested they must accept that they are returning to
their home.
Compassion does not mean you have to disregard the law. It does mean that we treat them with respect. The Church is right that it is the government who needs enforce the law and we the people are the force behind the government. Therefore, we have the right and obligation to voice our concerns to the government and demand action be taken on the illegal immigration issue. That stance is within the letter and spirit of the law, but we can do it without rancor and vitriol towards those who are illegally here.
Compassion does not mean you have to disregard the law. It does mean that we treat them with respect. The Church is right that it is the government who needs enforce the law and we the people are the force behind the government. Therefore, we have the right and obligation to voice our concerns to the government and demand action be taken on the illegal immigration issue. That stance is within the letter and spirit of the law, but we can do it without rancor and vitriol towards those who are illegally here.
JWK | 6:50 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
As far as Bizman is concerned, he is breaking the law because his employees are
to provide documentation they are here legally and have been granted the legal
status to be able to work. I have worked in human resources and know the
documents that must be shown.
Therefore, Bizman, you are breaking the law and should be subject to the current laws and fines that are appropriate. If you are Mormon, you cannot say that you are dealing truthfully in all that you do because you know your are breaking the law.
Therefore, Bizman, you are breaking the law and should be subject to the current laws and fines that are appropriate. If you are Mormon, you cannot say that you are dealing truthfully in all that you do because you know your are breaking the law.
Joseph from Oklahoma | 6:59 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Fortunately, sometimes we as members of the Lord's church must take a stand
on right vs. wrong. Many instances from the scriptures confirm this fact.
Sometimes this choice puts the Lord's people at odds with the local law.
Pres. Joseph Smith and Pres. John Taylor come to mind in relatively recent
times. So does Abraham and Moses from the Old Testament. Peter, Paul, John and
the rest of Christ's original 12 come to mind. All of these prophets gave
their lives in defense of what's right. The blessings of having a living
prophet is very evident in this case. As Moses advised ancient Isreal,
"Look and Live!"
Concerned | 7:08 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I understand that many of the illegals come to our country because they want to
start a better life. But to come to any country without going through the
proper and legal process is not a productive way of starting a better life. I
am a member also and take my temple vows and interview with my Bishop and Stake
President very serious. Obeying the law and not commiting any illegal act is
part of living in accordance with our Father In Heaven and the church. Those
that want to join our church that are illegal should be guided and counciled
through caring and compassion so they understand they should do what is right.
I do have compassion for those. We are all Gods childern and we love and
welcome others.
to JWK | 7:40 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Bizman is being sarcastic. It's obvious. Therefore, your answer is less of
a higher-ground reprimand and more of point for laughter. Sorry dude. You got
punked.
Mayhem Mike | 7:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm a devout Mormon, but cannot fathom how the Church can logically say
"we believe in honoring. . .the law," but not THIS law of immigration.
Compassion is irrelevant is determining if one will "honor (i.e., obey) the
law."
Anonymous | 7:55 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Rationalization is such a sweet thing when it we can use it to justify our
positions. Illegal live here illegally and dishonestly. They're
duplicitous lives affect my life without any choice of mine to be compassionate.
As a former ex-communicated member who struggled to get back into the church
and who is now a member of a bishopric, I have a real problem with members
picking and choosing which commandments they deem important or not. If a person
is living dishonestly, breaking the law, and getting advantage to the detriment
of others, they should not (in my opinion) have access to a temple recommend.
That should be reserved for those who are striving for righteousness in all
things. What ever happened to the Absolute Truths that President Kimball used
to so eloquently speak of?
prefer illegal and law abiding | 7:59 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I do not live in Utah. In our state, most of the publicized crimes we hear about
(rape, DUI, burglary, assault etc.) are committed by LEGAL immigrants. I guess
they figure since they are legal, they can get away with this kind of behavior.
Illegals live below the radar, trying to stay out of the authority's
notice. Those we know are kind, helpful, law abiding, very hard working and
take care of their families. They rarely if ever seek medical treatment for
fear of being discovered. The one doctor I know who treats them, charges them on
a sliding scale according to their income. If EVERYONE in America were charged
this way, there would not be all this offended cry about illegals obtaining free
services. There are plenty of Legal Americans, who do not pay anything for
services either. All should pay according to their ability to pay.
I commend the LDS Church for putting compassion at the top of the list.
I commend the LDS Church for putting compassion at the top of the list.
RE: Mike | 8:08 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
As a former attorney and legal expert, Elder Jensen LIKENED illegal immigration
to CIVIL trespass. In other words, (1) it was an analogy, and (2) civil
trespass is different from criminal trespass. I imagine he was using this
analogy to compare the moral effect.
Ann Chovie | 8:14 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
This doesn't seem complicated to me. The worthiness questions at baptism
and for recommends place the accountability squarely on the individual, where it
belongs. I agree the church's mission doesn't include the
enforcement of governmental laws. If someone lies to their bishop and gets away
with it they will eventually answer for it. I know a family where the husband,
an illiegal alien, joined the church and got married. The couple decided to do
it right so he went back to his homeland and they were separated for the two
years it took to gain legal status and come back. Tough but I agree with them
that it was the right way to handle the situation.
Beth | 8:33 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Acts 10:28 >>
New American Standard Bible (�1995)
And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."
Why do Christians have such a hard time reconsiling what they feel is socially convenient with the teachings of Christ? Because they know in their hearts that God has not placed a huge mission field in our back yards without a higher purpose and degree of accountability for the souls we affect with our words and actions.
God doesn't want us to live in chaos, and thus has given us laws and government. But he also expects much of us with our blessed nation - not the least of which is that we judge men by the content of their hearst... the same way we are judged by Him.
So it is not a huge dilemma that we should ammend our hearts and laws to fulfill our purpose and role as a "Judeo-Christian" nation.
If you're not a missionary, then you're a mission field.
New American Standard Bible (�1995)
And he said to them, "You yourselves know how unlawful it is for a man who is a Jew to associate with a foreigner or to visit him; and yet God has shown me that I should not call any man unholy or unclean."
Why do Christians have such a hard time reconsiling what they feel is socially convenient with the teachings of Christ? Because they know in their hearts that God has not placed a huge mission field in our back yards without a higher purpose and degree of accountability for the souls we affect with our words and actions.
God doesn't want us to live in chaos, and thus has given us laws and government. But he also expects much of us with our blessed nation - not the least of which is that we judge men by the content of their hearst... the same way we are judged by Him.
So it is not a huge dilemma that we should ammend our hearts and laws to fulfill our purpose and role as a "Judeo-Christian" nation.
If you're not a missionary, then you're a mission field.
Joe | 8:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
As much as I get angered at the undocumented that has hit and run my car twice
this year, and as frustrated as they make me, I agree with the church. This is
a world wide church without borders. Let them be baptized, they go home and
help continue to establish the kingdom in their own lands.
I am very much against illegal immigration, but I think the church should take a neutral on this. Good thing we are lead by a living prophet!
I am very much against illegal immigration, but I think the church should take a neutral on this. Good thing we are lead by a living prophet!
Re: Concerned | 8:48 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I can appreciate your fervent desire to obey the law, but have you ever
considered if a particular law is moral in itself? Just because it exists in the
books does not mean it is beyond reproach. This country's immigration laws
_are_ atrocious. They are the broken remains of a corpse of law that hurts
everyone much more than it helps anyone.
We desperately need a comprehensive reform that recognizes not only the economic necessity of orderly immigration, but also the human dignity of those that the current "system" has failed as well.
I guess, in the final analysis, when you distill your comments we come to this simple question: would you have been the one to bump Rosa Parks from her seat? (She was breaking the law after all.) Sad to say, it sounds like you would have.
We desperately need a comprehensive reform that recognizes not only the economic necessity of orderly immigration, but also the human dignity of those that the current "system" has failed as well.
I guess, in the final analysis, when you distill your comments we come to this simple question: would you have been the one to bump Rosa Parks from her seat? (She was breaking the law after all.) Sad to say, it sounds like you would have.
lifer | 8:46 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Who Would Jesus Deport?
ME | 8:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I guess I'd better go talk to my Bishop because last time I went to the
temple I was late and was speeding, which is breaking the law. But isn't
that okay because I was just trying to do the Lords work?
carl in idaho | 9:09 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I home teach a lady who is a lead prosecuting attorney for our county. She
stated on Monday that at least 70% of our violent crime (across our entire
state)is committed by hispanics, most of whom are here illegally. We all pay a
huge price for those who come here illegally. And every one of the adults who
crosses our borders knows that they are breaking our laws to do it. I wonder
what the church would counsel an LDS border agent? Don't stop them because
this is really more of a civil issue and its just not right for us to keep them
from crossing? Of course the church is not an enforcement agent, but its members
right now are left scratching their heads trying to find consistency in this
policy. Perhaps it would be easier if we suspended the 12th article of faith and
the temple question that deals with honesty. True we have all done things that
are wrong. But we repent of those things and move on. The illegals are here in a
constant state of wrongness.
Mr. Jensen | 9:16 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I doubt Mr. Jensen has much contact with typical illegal immigrants. No doubt
there are salt-of-the-earth, church-going families. But does he also consider
the gang members? Does he read the news and see the disproportionate crime rates
committed by this group? Has he been in two accidents w/ uninsured, illegal
immigrants who gave false information (as I have)? Does he live in Rose Park,
Glendale or Ogden? I doubt it. It seems that Mr. Jensen, no matter how well
intentioned, is out of touch with the practicalities driving this legislation.
The Raven | 9:25 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To live and work in this country illegally you have to lie and be deceitful. You
have to lie to your employer and use a fraudulent/stolen SS#. And the LDS Church
is okay with this? I'm puzzled by these Church leaders who are saying I
have to live the commandments and not lie, cheat, or steal. But, if you are an
illegal alien then it's okay. Illegal aliens can do whatever they want and
they'll be welcomed with open arms. Outrageous!
Al D. | 9:30 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
How many temples would be needed if every LDS member was completely honest in
how they answered temple recommend questions? Before we point out the visible
faults in others, let�s take a moment to reflect on our own
short comings in being obedient and disciples of Christ.
Johnny Utah #9 | 9:37 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I'm sorry to say but, Elder Jensen is wrong. Trespassing is trespassing,
whether it's civil or criminal. What is the action that should be taken
with trespassers? They should be removed from the area in which they are
trespassing and placed back in their place of origin. That is VERY compassionate
and humane if you ask me. Try to be an immigrant from Guatemala and trespass
into Mexico via the southern border, you'll most likely be shot and killed
on the spot. If they want to attend church fine but I don't think they
should be baptized here or given temple recommends because they are living a
life of lies and deceit (not very "Christlike"). If they want to go to
temple, there's a nice one in Mexico City they can attend.
Feed up | 9:40 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The line "'This isn't the church's issue,' he said
(Elder Pingree)'This is a government's issue'"
What kind of logic is this? How about rape, murder, and molesting? Okay that is the extreme, but stealing isn't. They are stealing my children's future. Church issue or government issue?
What kind of logic is this? How about rape, murder, and molesting? Okay that is the extreme, but stealing isn't. They are stealing my children's future. Church issue or government issue?
Arationalguy | 9:48 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
To deprive Mexico the prosperity of having all these hard working people who
left shows a lack of compassion for our neighbors south of the border.
Wouldn't we show greater compassion by encouraging them to return home and
help make Mexico blossom?
Anything less seems quite selfish and short sighted of us.
Anything less seems quite selfish and short sighted of us.
Stealing Your Child's Future | 9:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
If your child's future is landscaping, housekeeping, and work in the
service industry, tell your kid to get some more education and then he'd
have a future.
Liverpool - England | 9:56 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I read the deseret news each day to be part of the community in Utah, I would
like to live and work in Salt Lake but I can't. I would if it was legal so
my view is how can someone who lies to there bishop can attend the temple.
The church does need to change it's policy
The church does need to change it's policy
A Few Points | 10:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
1. For years the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy and even
formed its own militia in defense of that. This is no longer Brigham
Young's wild-west kingdom but don't be surprised that certain
spiritual matters may seem to trump the law particularly controversial
one's like immigration.
2. The "SLC Church" can actually be a rather liberal/compassionate Church on many issues. Immigration is one in which the thinking from SLC appears to lean very left. Even other social issues are more left leaning than the typical evangelical rehtoric. But the "Local Ward Church" tends to lean much more conservative and judgemental and rigid. In other words, the general membership often is much less compassionate and liberal than I think our SLC leaders tend to be. Perhaps it is because our general authorities have reached the point of true compassion and love while members still mire around in the muck of wanting to sign off on everyone else's temple recommends.
3. I think the Mitt Romney who ran for MA Governor was actually very much in line with compassionate but value based SLC leadership thinking. Too bad he felt he had to move to the judgemental evangelical George Bush right.
2. The "SLC Church" can actually be a rather liberal/compassionate Church on many issues. Immigration is one in which the thinking from SLC appears to lean very left. Even other social issues are more left leaning than the typical evangelical rehtoric. But the "Local Ward Church" tends to lean much more conservative and judgemental and rigid. In other words, the general membership often is much less compassionate and liberal than I think our SLC leaders tend to be. Perhaps it is because our general authorities have reached the point of true compassion and love while members still mire around in the muck of wanting to sign off on everyone else's temple recommends.
3. I think the Mitt Romney who ran for MA Governor was actually very much in line with compassionate but value based SLC leadership thinking. Too bad he felt he had to move to the judgemental evangelical George Bush right.
JMHO | 10:18 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
As a law enforcement officer of 20 years, I never had a problem reconciling
compassion for my fellow man with upholding the law. The law must be supported
and sustained first and foremost, and there is help available for those who
choose to change their circumstances and submit to the law. What bothers me is
that the church wants no role in enforcing immigration since it is a
�government issue� (which is as it
should be), but then claims the right to suggest a soft approach on immigration
law directed specifically to our lawmakers on the grounds that it is a
�moral issue.� Moral issues can
loosely be attributed to just about any legal topic, so where does one draw the
line? JMHO, but I think we are riding a slippery slope when religious leaders
of any denomination address government representatives on behalf of a church
with the intent of influencing policy, no matter how subtle.
Re: Stealing Future | 10:27 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Stealing our future, stealing our resources: 1) Education; why are we teaching
english as a second language? 2) Health care; why do I have to pay such high
premiums? 3) Taxes; who gets paid under the table? & 4) Culture; When was
the last time you when a day and heard english only?
I work in the construction trades and love it. Although, I do not like seeing my wage fall. The construction & service industries will survive w/o illegals because there are people like me that are willing to get their hands dirty.
I work in the construction trades and love it. Although, I do not like seeing my wage fall. The construction & service industries will survive w/o illegals because there are people like me that are willing to get their hands dirty.
Chris | 10:35 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I struggled with this while serving in a Spanish branch. I still don't
know how someone is able to say they are honest when they break the law for
financial gain, but I finally concluded that was between them and the Lord.
Personally the hardest part about serving in the branch was that I wanted to help these people find better jobs, but I was unwilling to ask anyone to break the law to give them jobs, or even to employ them myself with odd jobs when they were out of work.
As to whether or not the policy of the church is correct, I can't say. Its not my stewardship, and I'm having enough trouble looking after my own to be too critical of someone else's handling of theirs. I suspect that if I had been setting policy I would have opted for close questioning in interviews and fairly rigid enforcement. But I have also seen a few people progress after baptism who probably wouldn't have done anything outside of the church, and who I probably would have excluded. The couple I'm thinking of are now planning to return home once they get their affairs in order.
Personally the hardest part about serving in the branch was that I wanted to help these people find better jobs, but I was unwilling to ask anyone to break the law to give them jobs, or even to employ them myself with odd jobs when they were out of work.
As to whether or not the policy of the church is correct, I can't say. Its not my stewardship, and I'm having enough trouble looking after my own to be too critical of someone else's handling of theirs. I suspect that if I had been setting policy I would have opted for close questioning in interviews and fairly rigid enforcement. But I have also seen a few people progress after baptism who probably wouldn't have done anything outside of the church, and who I probably would have excluded. The couple I'm thinking of are now planning to return home once they get their affairs in order.
MikeMan | 10:37 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Illegal immigrants are not criminals. They are not trespassers. Nobody gets
thrown in jail because they have crossed a border, except in communist or
paranoid countries. Illegal immigrants have not followed the outlined rules to
become "documented." They are here without permission. There will
always be the discussion about their contribution or damage. If people are able
to get from one country to another with little effort - or insufficient
opposition, then it would be important to shore-up the borders. Priority of
status should not happen just because someone has breached the borders. A line
is a line. Perhaps we should not over react to the "illegal" tag.
Maybe we should be more balanced in our approach. Since punishment has never
been a part of this program, then we shouldn't start now. Since
citizenship offers benefits, along with the obligations, then rewarding
"undocumented" people should be avoided.
clarity is always important | 10:40 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Any clerk in the church would point out that we don't ask for drivers
license, SS cards, birth certificates, etc for proof of citizenship or even who
they really are when they get baptized. The MLS doesn't have a field for
citizenship either. This is a responsibility of each individual to be honest.
If a member of the bishopric or stake presidency becomes aware of someone's
illegal status then we are talking about a situation that I think the church
needs to take a stance on. Counseling them on the law and potentially denying
them a recommend until they are law abiding in this regard is definetely
something they should consider. But to be clear it currently is not a
requirement of the church to specifically ask about "legal status" and
if all the other questions do not prompt the member to answer in a way contrary
to the standard then the interviewer has no choice but to approve them (IMHO
they should deny the opportunity to be interviewed IF they are aware of an
illegal status). Many states allow for "undocumented people" to have
licenses why should priveleges in a church be different?
Former INS Officer | 10:45 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
President Marion G. Romney said that Latter-day Saints need to be willing to
live the laws of the government in which they live. Those that
�keepeth the laws of God hath no need to beak the laws of
the land.� As a former law enforcement officer, I had the
unique opportunity to observe that breaking the laws of the land usually also
involves breaking God�s laws. It seems especially hard to
be honest when breaking the law.
2 Nephi 1:6 | 10:41 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The church is only being consistent to its scriptures regarding immigration:
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
6 Wherefore, I, Lehi, prophesy according to the workings of the Spirit which is in me, that there shall none come into this land save they shall be brought by the hand of the Lord.
Curtis | 10:46 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I would question whether or not my faith were Christian if it took an official
stand against illegal immigration. As christians we are instructed to obey the
law. However, early christians disobeyed Roman law by not offering sacrifices to
Roman gods and these people were real saints. What if a law is immoral? If you
refuse to sacrifice your first-born child, even if it were a state law, can you
get a temple recommend? And when you go to get said temple recommend, does your
Bishop ask you if you've gotton away with speeding or J-walking recently?
Does he make you go to the DMV and turn yourself in? I'm not mormon, but
I'm guessing not. And to the reader who said that as members of
"God's Church" you must differentiate between what is
"right" and "wrong" as if being here illegally inorder to
give your family a better life is akin to murder or rape, I must agree with you
on one point. What is wrong? It is wrong to enjoy a prosperous, happy lifestyle
while preventing others from doing so. I think Jesus would agree. I commend the
Mormon church for taking a Christian stand in this matter.
Betsy T | 10:48 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Before standing in judgement, why not try putting yourself in the shoes of
illegal immigrants? Imagine living in a home without even the most basic of
necessities, no money for food or clothing. And imagine having children to take
care of on top of this. If you saw your children suffering, and you knew of a
way to end that suffering, who among us would not take that path? The vast
majority of these immigrants are hard-working and they take the jobs no one else
here even wants. I completely agree that the system needs to change, but please
don't forget that these are people in serious need or they would not be
here. It is not our place to judge. It is our place to help.
Former Mormon and -LDS employee | 10:57 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Mr. Jensen: The LDS church speaks out of both sides of its mouth. I could not
handle the duplicity any longer, and this is one of the main reasons I left the
LDS church.
It goes something like this:
We believe in...obeying, honoring and sustaining the law EXCEPT if we are Mexican and can pay tithing down the road, or at least add to the membership numbers on the rolls. All other nationalities should file paperwork and wait in line for years.
Yes, bishop, I'm honest in all my dealings (even though I jumped the border to get to the United States, refuse to file paperwork and pay files fees--so I'm stealing from the government, but that doesn't count, does it? Oh yeah, and I steal SSNs and write false information on my I-9s so I can work a reputable job and make better money. I don't pay income taxes, but even if I did, it would be money I don't warrant because I'm not legally allowed to be here.
Gee, thanks for my shiny new recommend, bishop! Awesome. Now I can become bishop one day and deny someone else a recommend for drinking a beer.
It goes something like this:
We believe in...obeying, honoring and sustaining the law EXCEPT if we are Mexican and can pay tithing down the road, or at least add to the membership numbers on the rolls. All other nationalities should file paperwork and wait in line for years.
Yes, bishop, I'm honest in all my dealings (even though I jumped the border to get to the United States, refuse to file paperwork and pay files fees--so I'm stealing from the government, but that doesn't count, does it? Oh yeah, and I steal SSNs and write false information on my I-9s so I can work a reputable job and make better money. I don't pay income taxes, but even if I did, it would be money I don't warrant because I'm not legally allowed to be here.
Gee, thanks for my shiny new recommend, bishop! Awesome. Now I can become bishop one day and deny someone else a recommend for drinking a beer.
Geez, | 10:56 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
The church doesn't care about their immigration status, they're just
potential converts. Since when has the church limited who it would baptize?
Think of them as numbers, not illegals. Just numbers to be added to the big
book in the sky, I mean the church office building. Numbers, numbers, just
numbers. My Dad's a mission president in South America, please don't
tell me I don't know about the "numbers"...
Anonymous | 10:57 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
illegals should do the right thing if they want to be baptized. go home
strengthen the church elsewhere. come back when you have papers. its not hard.
do the right things. if you want to be 100 percent free from sin obey the laws of your country,we will show compassion for you regardless. but please make it easier on everybody go and do things right.
its like the family who needs assistance year after year. life is hard we will help but please fix your situation.
do the right things. if you want to be 100 percent free from sin obey the laws of your country,we will show compassion for you regardless. but please make it easier on everybody go and do things right.
its like the family who needs assistance year after year. life is hard we will help but please fix your situation.
Re: A Few Points | 10:52 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
A Few Points | 10:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
1. For years the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy and even formed its own militia in defense of that. This is no longer Brigham Young's wild-west kingdom but don't be surprised that certain spiritual matters may seem to trump the law particularly controversial one's like immigration.
Not a bad entry over all but the comment above should be ammended if we are to be accurate.
1. For years members of the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy by continuing marriages already conscecrated after the law changed. During the time that polygamy was practiced in midwestern states it was not against the law in the U.S., while they were in Utah and still practicing with approval of the Church they were not a state and therefore not bound by the U.S. laws. Checking historical facts will show that the Church banning polygamy was a requirement before they could receive statehood, so therefore the Church was not breaking the law, even though some members did.
BTW - the militia was not formed because of polygamy but rather to protect us from persecution and extermination orders unlawfully enacted.
1. For years the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy and even formed its own militia in defense of that. This is no longer Brigham Young's wild-west kingdom but don't be surprised that certain spiritual matters may seem to trump the law particularly controversial one's like immigration.
Not a bad entry over all but the comment above should be ammended if we are to be accurate.
1. For years members of the Church knowingly broke the law regarding Polygamy by continuing marriages already conscecrated after the law changed. During the time that polygamy was practiced in midwestern states it was not against the law in the U.S., while they were in Utah and still practicing with approval of the Church they were not a state and therefore not bound by the U.S. laws. Checking historical facts will show that the Church banning polygamy was a requirement before they could receive statehood, so therefore the Church was not breaking the law, even though some members did.
BTW - the militia was not formed because of polygamy but rather to protect us from persecution and extermination orders unlawfully enacted.
Decendent of Illegal Immigrants | 10:53 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I am a decendent of illegal immigrants. My earlist ancestor arrived at
Plymouth, Massachusetts in 1621.
Now we know how the native americans felt!
Now we know how the native americans felt!
RE; all you who have it easy | 11:16 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
It is easy to tell them to go home and obey the laws. It is easy to tell them
the are bad people stealing your hard earned money. The illegal immigrants work
twice as hard as you. I think all of you would run across the border if your
family was starving to death. I am not a Mormon but family is important to me
and I thought that was a major part of the Mormon belief. I put my families
well being ahead of anything. All of you who have so much hate for the Hispanic
people should be ashamed to call yourself Christians. If they can not go to
your temple for being illegal you should not be allowed in your temple for being
hate filled people.
It's between God and the person | 11:22 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Leave law enforcement to the authorities. Leave personal worthiness to the
individual. We all know who we're ultimately accountable to. It's up
to each person to do the right thing. The church just needs to "teach
gospel principles and let them govern themselves."
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I want my government to protect it's borders and it's people from financial drainage and terrorist threat, but I want my church to love and accept all of God's children equally. I do not see any entanglement between the two.