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Utah touted as leader in charter movement

Utah Republican | 6:06 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Charter schools violate the "one people, one state, one system" principle. We need to properly fund ONE system, not two. I had hoped that once we defeated vouchers, we could target charters. Maybe next year.

Fred | 6:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Finally Utah leads the nation in some aspect of school financing. Of course it would be in financing non traditional public schools. I am impressed to read just how far above the rest of the country Utah has gone in financing charter schools. And I thought I heard the legislators say that quality education isn't about money. It seems that we give charter schools first class funding, to bad we can't do that for your neighborhood public schools. Just think if we would have passed the voucher bill then we could have led the nation in two categories. Wouldn't that have given our legislators something to crow about.

As a public school supporter I don't expect Utah to lead the nation in financing public schools, but it would be nice to get out of last place. Maybe if our legislative leaders actually spent some time looking at the needs of public schools instead of trying to figure out how to spend money on public education alternatives we could move forward. I know I am a dreamer, but I have hope, because I am a republican who will vote democrat in November.

Common Sense | 8:06 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

First of all, I am suprised at the ignorance of the general public on charter schools. They are PUBLIC schools and, by state law, part of the Utah public education system. This means they are FREE to the students like any other public school and are open to enrollment by any Utah student. The difference is a parent chooses whether or not to enroll in a charter school rather than being designated to a school based on where they live. Charter schools are open enrollment institutions. They provide choice just like magnet schools and concurrent enrollment programs. Charter schools are just another choice, not a fully separate system. If anything, vouchers would have likely hurt charter schools more than traditional public schools.

As for the issue on "first class funding," parity means getting the same as, not more or less. Without this parity in funding Utah students attending public charter schools would be funded less than traditional public schools by anwhere from $600 - $1,800 less per student than traditional public schools. The current system isn't completely equitable but is getting closer. Instead of first class, charter schools are just getting equal funding.

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Anonymous | 8:25 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

At the charter school by me in Orem, people flocked to it when it opened up. Then they realized that the public school could offer a lot more and they came back. Problem was the funding was already set for the FTE amount which determines how many teachers can be hired. Result -- Way over-crowded classes full of returning charter school students.

Now there is a large sign on the Charter school saying "NOW ENROLLING".

Charters are an idea that sounds great on paper. Then reality sets in. Public ed can do a lot more for your child than a charter can. In another 5 years or so and we will see a decline in charter schools. People will figure out that they are doing a disservice to their children by putting the there.

We need to fund public ed properly and keep the good teachers on board. Right now the teachers that can't get hired in public ed go to the charter schools. That is a blanket statement and many charter school teachers do a good job but I have seen it happen time and time again. No teacher wants to work at a charter unless they HAVE to.

Thank you | 8:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Thanks, Common Sense, for some common sense. I'm always amazed at what morons post comments when they don't know what the hell they are talking about. People who sincerely investigate the charter school movement are usually very understanding--if they are intellectually honest. They only enhance public ed, they don't actually threaten it at all--unless the status quo is the goal!

Derek | 9:37 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

It's amazing to read the bias against charter schools by those who've posted on this message board. Some of us in Utah need to break out of our self-imposed prison of mindless devotion to a system and instead prioritize the human beings who those systems are meant to serve (i.e. parents and children). And I mean prioritize in practical terms as shown by actions, not just giving lip service to the idea to fool yourself that you're not just devoted to a system. Until this happens, we'll continue with uncivil, unreasoned emotional debates while some kids needlessly get a poor education.

Some parents like charter schools and their children do exceptionally well there, just like some parents like private, traditional public, or home schools and their children do exceptionally well in those situations. The real disservice to Utah children is to make education policy based on a flawed mentality that one system can meet every child's needs.

The only disservice a parent can do for their child in education is to not put any effort into discovering what system will best serve their child's needs, and instead just send them off to the system that's most convenient for them.

Steve | 11:46 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Charters are more than a good idea. Results show that Utah charter schools are more effective at educating students than traditional district schools. The evidence for Utah schools is clear. Charters outperform their neighborhood district schools.

Reality | 12:10 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

Charters are funded at the state average. So if you look at Alpine or Nebo School Districts, where most of the Charter Schools are located, the Charter Schools receive more funding than the local school districts. Common Sense has part of the story but certainly only the part they want to tell.

RE: Anonymous 8:25 a.m. | 1:06 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

It's incredible how far you can take your generalizations. How can your "experience" with the one charter school near you be so conveniently extrapoated to "all" other charter schools in Utah? Kids leave charter schools for a variety of reasons, not just that "they realized that the public school could offer alot more".

I'm sure your school - like many in this area - we're way overcrowded, with or without extra kids coming back from the charter school. But it makes the story better to blame it on them, doesn't it?

I wouldn't consider parents who make decisions for their children's long-term well being - instead of letting their children make short-term immature decisions - to be doing a disservice to their children. But then again, maybe I'm generalizing.

Me | 1:15 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

It is a misconception that charter schools in Alpine district receive more funding than the local neighborhood school. Alpine school district decides how much of the money goes directly to the school and how much goes to the district to pay for transportation, technology, food service, Special Education and district administration. Alpine district receives nearly $2,000 more per student than a charter school in Utah County does. A charter school has to budget wisely or cut programs that a large district can fund. Even most teachers and principals are unaware of the $$ that the district uses which the local neighborhood school never sees.

full picture? | 1:32 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

I wonder why the story doesn't mention the recent negative publicity about the "slum lords" who are taking parents for a ride on their charter school leases. I wonder why the story doesn't mention that the charter school developers are former legislators. Seems to me it isn't all rosy in the charter school world.

A parent | 4:59 p.m. Feb. 15, 2008

I don't know much about how much or where the funding for charter schools come from, but I do have experience with two different Charter Schools. I have two children, both went to charter schools. One had a great experience and the other a bad experience. Kids are different and what works for one kid doesn't necessarily work for the other. What my son needed in a school was not what my daughter needed. I like Charter schools because they give parents the ability to find what works for their child. I like how some charter schools are focused on the different intrestes and abilitys of the student such as East Hollywood High and AMES (Acadamy for Math, Engineering and Science.)Or schools that work with troubled students such as Center City School. Some of the Charter school teachers are actually Business men and women working in the field they teach or are University professors that teach part time at the school. Personally, despite my son's unfortunate experiences with a charter school, I really like charter schools, I like the idea of choice. I think our "regularly scheduled Pubilic schools" need the compatition.

alexandria | 9:36 a.m. Feb. 16, 2008

Charter schools are schools conceived of, designed by, and governed by parents, most of whom are not educators (many of whom aren't even educated), who have no idea how to run an effective educational institution. It is a communal home school. National data shows charter schools have four times the rate of cheating on national/state tests than traditional public schools do. Charters may be publicly funded, thanks to the religious zealots who pass the laws, but they are just communal home schools. The best, most experienced teachers don't choose to teach at charter schools. When the best universities in the country are full of students from charter schools, then the charter school rah-rahs can prove their schools are better than traditional public schools. Until then, the charter school claim to be a better "choice" is empty. Of course Utah leads the nation in charter schools; we also lead the nation in polygamy and Prozac.

Deena | 10:13 a.m. Feb. 18, 2008

I'm not an "educator", haven't a clue how to run a big school - but my home school runs just fine, thank you. My soon to be high schooler will be going to a small charter school, because it will meet his needs much better than the 2500 student public high school. Both choices, to home school and now to use a charter, have been with much thought and effort to meet his unique needs the best. Don't know yet exactly where the next child will go, but again it will be where she will do best. Charters are one choice that lets me meet their needs. A one size fits all system can never meet the needs of all, even if it works for most. You will have many who will not fulfill their potential, who will get lost in the system. And that's a waste. My kids were in a regular public school for 2 years - for one semester one had a former charter teacher. She was the best of the lot, willing to adapt to his special needs. The rest of their time there was mostly a waste. Typical Utah stack 'em deep, teach 'em cheap.

Wanda | 4:35 p.m. Feb. 20, 2008

Most charter schools have lower class sizes than typical public schools (try 25 students per class instead of 34). Charter schools can put specific things in their "charter" that WILL NOT be taken away no matter what. For example, if the charter school offers Spanish for all grades, or music and art, those thing cannot be taken away. If there are certain things you want you children to focus on, you can find the right school through a charter. Most charters also have higher behavior standards and dress codes. Smaller class sizes and less behavior problems in the classroom lead directly to a much less disrupted public education.

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