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Have compassion for immigrants, lawmakers urged
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2 bits | 12:21 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I think those saying, "The church is enocouraging illegal
immigration", are jumping to conclusions. All he said was, "Have
compassion".
In my mind, the best way to show compassion for them is to help them go back and start over legally. My friends wife had to go back to Honduras to clear up an immigration issue and she is back now and so glad she doesn't have to look over her shoulder and wonder if she is legal anymore.
If we think "being compassionate" is letting them live here as second-class almost-citizens who can only do the jobs we don't want and have to live every day with the fear that they could be split from their families at the whim of the government... what kind of existence is that?
Personally I would want to get legal no matter what it cost. Helping someone get legal is the best thing I could do for them, ignoring them as long as they don't rock-the-boat isn't compasionate. Turning a blind eye to those currently here illegally ISN'T compassion. The status quo [don't ask, don't tell... unless your at the wrong place at the wrong time, then your gone] isn't compassionate.
In my mind, the best way to show compassion for them is to help them go back and start over legally. My friends wife had to go back to Honduras to clear up an immigration issue and she is back now and so glad she doesn't have to look over her shoulder and wonder if she is legal anymore.
If we think "being compassionate" is letting them live here as second-class almost-citizens who can only do the jobs we don't want and have to live every day with the fear that they could be split from their families at the whim of the government... what kind of existence is that?
Personally I would want to get legal no matter what it cost. Helping someone get legal is the best thing I could do for them, ignoring them as long as they don't rock-the-boat isn't compasionate. Turning a blind eye to those currently here illegally ISN'T compassion. The status quo [don't ask, don't tell... unless your at the wrong place at the wrong time, then your gone] isn't compassionate.
Cal Jones | 12:16 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Do you think local religious leaders could muster a small amount of compassion
for the parents of 100 children who are raped and murdered annually by illegal
aliens? Or the thousands of people whose identity is stolen and their lives
subsequently ruined? How about some compassion for the families of drug addicted
teans who got hooked on drugs that came here from Mexico on in the backpacks of
illegal aliens?
While they are at it maybe they could shed a few tears for all the construction workers who used to make $15 per hour and who are now forced to work for $8. Where is the compassion for those whose lives have been and are being destroyed every day by "hard working people looking for a better life"?
Where is the compassion for the school teachers in Utah who now must teach a classroom full of illegal children who don't even speak English while trying to maintain a decent standard for the children who have a right to be in the classroom? If all these religions are so concerned why don't they foot the bill for them all?
While they are at it maybe they could shed a few tears for all the construction workers who used to make $15 per hour and who are now forced to work for $8. Where is the compassion for those whose lives have been and are being destroyed every day by "hard working people looking for a better life"?
Where is the compassion for the school teachers in Utah who now must teach a classroom full of illegal children who don't even speak English while trying to maintain a decent standard for the children who have a right to be in the classroom? If all these religions are so concerned why don't they foot the bill for them all?
Comments continue below
Mike597 | 12:23 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Well, so much for the 12th Article of Faith ...
Hey | 12:33 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
free health care,free dental, no taxes, housing assistance, being illegal sounds
better than being a citizen.
MwM | 12:36 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I agree, we should treat them with compassion, as we lead them back to the
border and then ask them to come back as soon as they can "legally".
What is compassionate about my income dwindling because of taxes to keep them
fed, clothed, educated, my health care costs sky rocketing, and crime spiraling
out of control. How many illegals are in our prison system we are supporting
Elder Jensen? We don't have to be cruel, but we do have to be fair, first
to the people of Utah. Legislators, please remember what way you are facing and
who you really should report to, I don't think it is South of you and just
down the hill.
Michael | 12:50 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
So, when will the Church revoke the 12th Article of Faith? Additionally,
I'd like to know if the Church will be announcing a list of laws that can
now be broken without fear of losing one's membership?
What a joke! I for one, do not support the apparent "message" of Elder Jensen.
What a joke! I for one, do not support the apparent "message" of Elder Jensen.
Well . . . | 12:51 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
It's pret-ty hard for the church to say "illegal immigration is
bad" when they had some stuff to clean up too . . .
BigPoet | 1:03 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
How about some compassion for the taxpayers?
Illegal immigrants are taking money out of my wallet when they receive subsidies from many public sources. Far too many are criminals.
They should obey the laws of the land they are in.
Illegal immigrants are taking money out of my wallet when they receive subsidies from many public sources. Far too many are criminals.
They should obey the laws of the land they are in.
BB KLEIN | 1:11 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
The Salt Lake Tribune included this statement by Elder Jensen:
"I was assigned to come here by the First Presidency of the church," he said, referring to the church's three most senior leaders, including LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson.
Bottom Line...are you prepared to tell President Monson that he is wrong on this issue?
I believe the Articles of Faith, but this is a living prophet's directive. I believe they can work together.
We may not know the solution to the immigration issue, but when my living Prophet says something, I don't question it.
"I was assigned to come here by the First Presidency of the church," he said, referring to the church's three most senior leaders, including LDS Church President Thomas S. Monson.
Bottom Line...are you prepared to tell President Monson that he is wrong on this issue?
I believe the Articles of Faith, but this is a living prophet's directive. I believe they can work together.
We may not know the solution to the immigration issue, but when my living Prophet says something, I don't question it.
Candice | 1:14 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Kevin Taylor, I am very comfortable asking Pres. Monson "what part of
illegal does he not understand", in an unconfronational way. In fact, I am
writing Elder Jensen and copying the Brethern.
Many people have brought up why this "support" by Elder Jensen is disturbing. How do we justify accepting illegals immigrants to our children. We have them recite The 12th Article of Faith, teach lessons on obeying the laws of the land, integrity, honesty, and inform them that one of the temple recomend questions is "Are you honest in all your dealings"? It's hypocritical!
This isn't a compasion issue. On a HUMANITARIAN stance...How does everyone feel about there direct and obvious explotation by employers?
Many people have brought up why this "support" by Elder Jensen is disturbing. How do we justify accepting illegals immigrants to our children. We have them recite The 12th Article of Faith, teach lessons on obeying the laws of the land, integrity, honesty, and inform them that one of the temple recomend questions is "Are you honest in all your dealings"? It's hypocritical!
This isn't a compasion issue. On a HUMANITARIAN stance...How does everyone feel about there direct and obvious explotation by employers?
Disgusted | 1:24 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Political issue only? Not hardly. It is the law and we don't support the
right in this country to pick and choose which laws we will obey. Neither do we
nor should we in the Church. Good friends of mine are here legally after doing
all that the law forced them to do. Until such time as those laws are changed,
my compassion for these people extends up to the border and no further. When a
person breaks the law of my country, burns its flag, takes my tax dollars in
benefits while contributing nothing financially to the system, refuses to learn
English and pushes my country to adapt its language system to suit him, I say
NO. Go home and stay there. I have lived abroad in the Orient and certainly did
not go there and demand that the Japanese change their system so that I could
live there "in English." You adapt to where you legally choose to go,
be grateful that they are willing to taker you, or don't go at all.
LDS Nonpartisan? | 1:27 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Wait I thought the church was supposed to be nonpartisan. Especially when its
authorities start preaching conflicting views.
COMPASSION? or OBEY HONOR AND SUSTAIN THE LAW?
I am sure glad God governs this church and not some of these Ignorgant General Authorities.
COMPASSION? or OBEY HONOR AND SUSTAIN THE LAW?
I am sure glad God governs this church and not some of these Ignorgant General Authorities.
wrz | 1:29 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
>
These outdated immigration laws, as you choose to call them, are what keeps this country from being over-run by the rest of the world. With no borders and no immigration laws there is no nation.
These outdated immigration laws, as you choose to call them, are what keeps this country from being over-run by the rest of the world. With no borders and no immigration laws there is no nation.
CaseySee | 1:52 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
To all who want to deport every illegal alien.
What do you do about their children who are legal? Take them from their parents, send them back with their parents so that they starve? What about the young man or young women who falls in love with a young person who has lived in the USA since they were just a very young child and doesn't know any other country. Tell them that they can't marry or that they can marry, but they can't live together after marriage because the illegal one has to be deported?
This is the compassion that the church is asking that the legislature consider.
Also, the legislature (and congress) needs to consider the compassion (not) of using US taxpayers money to pay for the illegal alien's welfare costs, housing costs, etc.
What is needed is a series of laws and initiatives that address the many causes of illegal aliens: including no work south of the boarder, our own appetite for cheap food, products, services, and such provided by their labor.
This is not a cut and dried issue. Both sides have legitimate issues and concerns. It will take compassion on all sides.
What do you do about their children who are legal? Take them from their parents, send them back with their parents so that they starve? What about the young man or young women who falls in love with a young person who has lived in the USA since they were just a very young child and doesn't know any other country. Tell them that they can't marry or that they can marry, but they can't live together after marriage because the illegal one has to be deported?
This is the compassion that the church is asking that the legislature consider.
Also, the legislature (and congress) needs to consider the compassion (not) of using US taxpayers money to pay for the illegal alien's welfare costs, housing costs, etc.
What is needed is a series of laws and initiatives that address the many causes of illegal aliens: including no work south of the boarder, our own appetite for cheap food, products, services, and such provided by their labor.
This is not a cut and dried issue. Both sides have legitimate issues and concerns. It will take compassion on all sides.
to Karen Smith | 4:31 a.m. | 1:58 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Your tone and what you say would make sense if history were not what it is. The
United States offered Mexico money several times for the land that Utah and
other states sits on. Mexico refused to sell. After war where American then
took what it wanted by force, America offered money. Which Mexico accepted,
only because it knew it couldn't get the land back anyway. In addition to
this there are numerious Indian treaties made by the US Government which were
later broken when it became apparent that the US wanted the land after all.
Given this history of Law breaking by the US, the US needs to be careful not to
insist that it holds others to standards which itself was not willing to
follow.
It is highly proper that the United States exercise compassion in this case. Given our history we need to be especially charitable and not hold others to standards which our own country was not willing to follow.
It is highly proper that the United States exercise compassion in this case. Given our history we need to be especially charitable and not hold others to standards which our own country was not willing to follow.
Get over yourselves! | 1:58 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Common people! All of these negative comments must be coming from people who
never lifted a hand to help someone else outside of their family. Are you all
so concerned about your own wallet that you are willing to forget about people,
and are willing to tear apart families? Isn't that what America is all
about? Helping the down trodden, poor and afflicted? Let's fix the laws
to help these people in a humane way.
It's a sad day when the people of America are more concerned about their almighty wallet, then a human life. Greed, selfishness and pride are ugly things.
I'm amused by all the people who claim all our problems are caused by these illegals! They are all criminals? Really? Maybe we need to take a look at ourselves!
It's a sad day when the people of America are more concerned about their almighty wallet, then a human life. Greed, selfishness and pride are ugly things.
I'm amused by all the people who claim all our problems are caused by these illegals! They are all criminals? Really? Maybe we need to take a look at ourselves!
Interesting | 2:13 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Its interesting that the church just tightened up their temple recommends: with
bar codes; they have to be submitted by the stakes to make them valid, etc. This
gives the church greater control on who enters the temple. Yet Elder Jensen
feels like our State Legislatures can't do the same type of thing to
protect what it holds sacred and precious, namely our American Way of Life. We
need this discussed in General Conference because Elder Jensen's comments
go against what we have been taught as members.
RE: Interesting | 2:36 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
You mean to say that we have been taught to uphold the American Way of life
before practicing simple Christianity? How sad.
tom | 2:49 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Mr. Jensen is a true statesman as are most of the leaders of the LDS Church. It
is sad there are so few in the legislature that can say the same. If the Church
really did have the influence in the legislature that some fear, it would
certainly be a more kindly and humane body than it is. They claim to follow LDS
teachings, they get elected because of the presumption they are good LDS, but
in reality they go against most of the principles of the Church in their
catering to special interests.
Thank you Mr. Jensen and thanks to all the hard working "illegal" immigrants that are the corner stone of the US economy and the only thing standing between us and $10 heads of lettuce.
Thank you Mr. Jensen and thanks to all the hard working "illegal" immigrants that are the corner stone of the US economy and the only thing standing between us and $10 heads of lettuce.
FD | 2:52 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I met an illegal alien once, when he was driving and hit my car from behind. I
would have liked to have gotten to know him and his family, but he gave me a
fake name and address, so I'll probably never see him again.
When we lived in California, my three sisters met an illegal alien who was living down the street. After the unspeakable things he did to them, I don't really have a desire to get to know him or his family. My sisters are still in therapy, struggling with the issues related to being assaulted at such a young age. Only one has remained in the LDS faith.
Perhaps these church leaders should spend some time with the victims of the illegal alien invasion before making suggestions to be compassionate about them. There is enough anger and frustration that in the coming years this situation could really boil over and get ugly.
When we lived in California, my three sisters met an illegal alien who was living down the street. After the unspeakable things he did to them, I don't really have a desire to get to know him or his family. My sisters are still in therapy, struggling with the issues related to being assaulted at such a young age. Only one has remained in the LDS faith.
Perhaps these church leaders should spend some time with the victims of the illegal alien invasion before making suggestions to be compassionate about them. There is enough anger and frustration that in the coming years this situation could really boil over and get ugly.
What would Jesus do? | 2:56 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Let's step back and ask ourselves, "What would Jesus do?" The
woman caught in adultery comes to mind as an appropriate example of a person
that had broken a law, which was at that time a criminal law, as well as a
spiritual law. Reading Jesus's response to this moral dillemma of
exercising compassion and forgiveness versus enforcement of the law is very
telling. We all know the result.
The question continues to come up of how the 10th Article of Faith comes into play in all of this. Fortunately, we have living prophets for just this type of situation. While not speaking on the specifics of the bills, the message from our living prophets has clearly been to exercise compassion, or stated differently, ask what Jesus would do.
The question continues to come up of how the 10th Article of Faith comes into play in all of this. Fortunately, we have living prophets for just this type of situation. While not speaking on the specifics of the bills, the message from our living prophets has clearly been to exercise compassion, or stated differently, ask what Jesus would do.
ME | 3:06 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
You can be a proponent of LEGAL Immigration and have compassion.
I say the ILLEGAL Immigrants follow the procedure of Repenting for sin/crime. Return to their Countries and do the LEGAL thing and apply for Citizenship here and enter the U.S. Legally after they have fairly stood in line behind those who are trying to do the right thing.
I can LOVE my Neighbor but if he rips me off I am not going to let it continue to happen and I am going to request justice. Mercy cannot rob Justice.
I say the ILLEGAL Immigrants follow the procedure of Repenting for sin/crime. Return to their Countries and do the LEGAL thing and apply for Citizenship here and enter the U.S. Legally after they have fairly stood in line behind those who are trying to do the right thing.
I can LOVE my Neighbor but if he rips me off I am not going to let it continue to happen and I am going to request justice. Mercy cannot rob Justice.
coverup | 3:12 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Imagine someone stealing your good name : your reputation is ruined ,your
credit rating is ruined , your Social Security is frozen , and numerous other
tragedies befall you . Each and every illegal alien who uses a phoney SSN is
doing this to some citizen without that citizens knowledge . It is called
"Identity Theft" and it is a crime even more serious than entering our
country illegally . Calling an illegal alien an undocumented worker is the same
as calling a burgler an unwanted houseguest .
Josh | 3:40 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
You people are Uneducated Fear Mongers! Illegal immigration is illegal due to
the Immigration and Nationality Act. It was determined to be a misdemeanor and a
Judge would decide if the immigrant would be sent home if caught. I want to
remind everyone that most of us choose to commit misdemeanors daily mostly in
traffic violations.If you drive 1 mph over the speed limit you are in the same
violation as these immigrants. This is why these Ecclesiastical leaders are
pleading for people to have compassion and understand them. These people are not
and taking your job, do some research.If you were born and raised in America and
have not taken advantage of all of the opportunities to help you get as much
education as possible shame on you, but guess what, you still can go back to
school with government assistance or not, you would rather stay home and
complain about the possibilities of others coming to take your job. What
happened to the statement on the statue of
liberty?��cries she with silent lips.
Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe
free,� Send these, the homeless, I lift my lamp beside the
golden door!"
Re: What would Jesus do? | 3:42 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
So, in other words, the living prophet now decides which laws can be ignored and
which should be obeyed?
Can I also assume from your response that Jesus is an advocate for the destruction of the United States, a country he had a hand in founding (if we are to believe the Doctrine & Covenants)? Yes, illegal immigration does destroy nations - it was certainly one of the factors that lead to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Can I also assume from your response that Jesus is an advocate for the destruction of the United States, a country he had a hand in founding (if we are to believe the Doctrine & Covenants)? Yes, illegal immigration does destroy nations - it was certainly one of the factors that lead to the fall of the Roman Empire.
Compassion trumps 12th AoF | 3:43 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Anyone who says that the obeying the laws of the land trumps compassion would
fit just fine as Nazi party member exterminating Jews during the Holocaust.
After all, the extermination orders were the "law of the land."
Sounds like most of the people on this board worship "the law" more than compassion. Sounds like the Pharisees. Oh ye hypocrites!
Sounds like most of the people on this board worship "the law" more than compassion. Sounds like the Pharisees. Oh ye hypocrites!
Anoid | 3:54 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Has anyone thought to put yourself in these illegals shoes? Does anyone know
what it's like to live in a 3rd world country, and living in poverty that
you are almost begging to stay alive? We say we want them to come here here
legally, but to them that is insane to think about, when they can barely feed
their families. How can we expect them to be able to pay the fees of coming
here legally? Everyone says to deport them and make them come back the legal
way. How ridiculous is that when you see their situation! That is not a
solution, it's just a reaction.
We Americans are spoiled and can't understand that sort of poverty. I agree, mercy cannot rob justice, but who made us Gods over these people?
We Americans are spoiled and can't understand that sort of poverty. I agree, mercy cannot rob justice, but who made us Gods over these people?
Native of America | 4:04 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
TO THOSE WHO DO NOT KNOW HOW HARD IT IS TO LEGALIZE YOUR STATUS, PEOPLE WHO ARE
MARRY TO AN AMERICAN CITIZENS I ENCOURAGE YOU TO TAKE A TRIP TO CD. JUAREZ,
MEXICO TO SEE HOM MANY OF THOSE WHO APPLY FOR PETITION ARE DENY EVERY DAY, WE
WANT TO DO WHAT EVER IT TAKES TO BE LEGAL IN THE UNITED STATES, THE LAWS ARE SO
SCREW WE HOPE AND LOOK FOR COMPASION AND SOMEONE WHO CAN MAKE SOME REASONABLE
CHANGES.
Bombadil | 4:11 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Just because the bretheren said it doesn't make it true. If you want to get
to know some undocumented immigrants, feel free to volunteer at the prison,
Arizona for instance supports 4000 mexican nationals to the tune of 100 million
dollars a year in their prison system. Do what you like. It's your money,
liberty and lifestyle being put on the line.
What would Jesus Do? | 4:16 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Jesus would say, "Go (leave the country),and sin no more".
Godwin's Law... | 4:12 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
...trumps stupid comparisons.
What is it with the pro-illegal crowd? Whenever someone says anything that even slightly shines a negative light on illegal immigrants that person is automatically branded a "Nazi". Can't you do any better than that?
Speaking of hypocrisy, why don't YOU show some compassion and give your social security number to these fine, upstanding "guests" so they can get a job?
You seem to be okay with them stealing the identities of other people, why not volunteer yours so they don't have to steal?
What is it with the pro-illegal crowd? Whenever someone says anything that even slightly shines a negative light on illegal immigrants that person is automatically branded a "Nazi". Can't you do any better than that?
Speaking of hypocrisy, why don't YOU show some compassion and give your social security number to these fine, upstanding "guests" so they can get a job?
You seem to be okay with them stealing the identities of other people, why not volunteer yours so they don't have to steal?
TO AC | 4:20 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
PLEASE MAKE YOUR VOICE HEAR AND GET INVOLVE IN THIS ISSUE THERE IS A LOT YOU
WILL DO IF YOU ONLY MAKE YOUR VOICE HEAR!
What would Jesus Do | 4:33 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I would again ask "What would Jesus Do?" A law was broken. If Jesus
were ruling on the earth right now, and this situation were placed before him,
would he send a family back to Mexico, where the cost of the journey would leave
them with nothing, forced to live in a cardboard box and die of starvation? Or
would he acknowledge that a law was broken, administer a consequence
commensurate with the crime, and afterwards say "Go and sin no more."
I recognize that if illegal immigrants commit crimes, that is a different story, and there is an issue of safety and protection. But what about the people that, but for entering illegally, are keeping the law the best they can? Aren't these the people that our living prophets are talking about when we need to consider treating them with compassion?
I'm afraid that if we rely solely on the 10th Article of Faith in this discussion, and ignore the encouragement of our living prophets, we will be following a dead prophet and not a living prophet, as the people that remained in Nauvoo did, failing to follow the living prophet, Brigham Young.
I recognize that if illegal immigrants commit crimes, that is a different story, and there is an issue of safety and protection. But what about the people that, but for entering illegally, are keeping the law the best they can? Aren't these the people that our living prophets are talking about when we need to consider treating them with compassion?
I'm afraid that if we rely solely on the 10th Article of Faith in this discussion, and ignore the encouragement of our living prophets, we will be following a dead prophet and not a living prophet, as the people that remained in Nauvoo did, failing to follow the living prophet, Brigham Young.
Gus | 6:03 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Even though Elder Jensen requested that we "measure twice and cut
once", he's not saying that we shouldn't pass laws that deter
illegals from living here. It doesn't mean that we allow our state's
laws to be trampled upon. He's just saying let's be sure we're
doing the right thing, maintaining an attitude of compassion toward illegals,
and then let's go ahead and act.
plumloko | 6:02 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
As children of God aren't we supposed to abide by the law?
What your saying is that its OK for other children of God to break the law?
What sort of child of God are you when you blatantly disobey the law?
Seems contradictory to me.
What your saying is that its OK for other children of God to break the law?
What sort of child of God are you when you blatantly disobey the law?
Seems contradictory to me.
Saddened by the hate | 6:21 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I'm shocked at how quick many LDS jumpp to criticize the brethren the
minute a general authority proposes something that rightwingers disagree with.
I guess that makes clear where your loyalty is. I think the word in the
scriptures is "stiffnecked."
Elder Jensen isn't talking about obeying or disobeying the law, he's talking to the legislature MAKING the law. The men who decide what counts as LEGAL or ILLEGAL. He's saying we should have compassion in CRAFTING the law in the first place. Why is that so hard for the xenophobes in Utah to understand?
The fact is, we have an unjust system here. We want it both ways: we want cheap produce and cheap labor, but we also want excuses to indulge in the hatred of people not like us. Our economy encourages immigration (illegal and otherwise), then we punish people that react to that encouragement. We need to change the law to reflect economic reality and show compassion.
Shame on racist Utahns for using immigrants as scapegoats for all their social ills. And shame on Mormons with the audacity to counsel the brethren on how to interpret the Article of Faith.
Elder Jensen isn't talking about obeying or disobeying the law, he's talking to the legislature MAKING the law. The men who decide what counts as LEGAL or ILLEGAL. He's saying we should have compassion in CRAFTING the law in the first place. Why is that so hard for the xenophobes in Utah to understand?
The fact is, we have an unjust system here. We want it both ways: we want cheap produce and cheap labor, but we also want excuses to indulge in the hatred of people not like us. Our economy encourages immigration (illegal and otherwise), then we punish people that react to that encouragement. We need to change the law to reflect economic reality and show compassion.
Shame on racist Utahns for using immigrants as scapegoats for all their social ills. And shame on Mormons with the audacity to counsel the brethren on how to interpret the Article of Faith.
Lee | 6:33 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
This is the 5th year that some of these bills (repeal of in-state tuition and
drivers licenses) have been considered. So it appears that the legislature has
measured 5 times and is preparing to finally make a cut. I guess they're
going the extra mile.
factual indeed | 6:47 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
I think the LDS people who read this need to take a deep breath and listen to
our church leaders. Soften your heart and think about the issue again. Elder
Jensen did not say that we can't enforce the laws; I hope we do. He said
to take into account the context in the *way* we enforce it.
What happens to people who are caught and deported, right now? If they are deported, they often spend time in immigration prisons, with worse conditions and without the rights that American murderers get--these are people who mostly jut wanted to feed their families. And yet people say there's no room for compassion.
It's really frustrating that despite the complexity of the problem, people want to lay all the blame and all the suffering for it on the illegals themselves, who are the least guilty. What about the fact that as a country we liked cheap fruit so much that we couldn't bring ourselves to guard the borders? What about the many businesses which have time and time again employed them, without feeling any guilt at all? Those of you without sin on this issue, cast the first stone.
What happens to people who are caught and deported, right now? If they are deported, they often spend time in immigration prisons, with worse conditions and without the rights that American murderers get--these are people who mostly jut wanted to feed their families. And yet people say there's no room for compassion.
It's really frustrating that despite the complexity of the problem, people want to lay all the blame and all the suffering for it on the illegals themselves, who are the least guilty. What about the fact that as a country we liked cheap fruit so much that we couldn't bring ourselves to guard the borders? What about the many businesses which have time and time again employed them, without feeling any guilt at all? Those of you without sin on this issue, cast the first stone.
Re: Godwin's Law | 9:13 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Address the question. Do you claim that obeying the laws of the land is a
morally superior and morally the more important thing to do than having
compassion in lawmaking? If you do, fine by you.
I never said I was okay with identity theft. Any serious immigration reform should include provisions for persons to be readily identifiable and not be so afraid of US police authorities that they have to commit identity theft. Most posters here are not "pro-illegal immigrant."
We can enforce the laws on the books, build a wall, penalize employers, institute temporary work visas, get immigrants out of the shadows, stop identity theft, pay taxes (and get tax returns too).
I never said I was okay with identity theft. Any serious immigration reform should include provisions for persons to be readily identifiable and not be so afraid of US police authorities that they have to commit identity theft. Most posters here are not "pro-illegal immigrant."
We can enforce the laws on the books, build a wall, penalize employers, institute temporary work visas, get immigrants out of the shadows, stop identity theft, pay taxes (and get tax returns too).
To Ignacio Garcia | 9:29 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Well said my friend.
I hope that we can become more educated and involve in this issue without any harsh but with the right knoledge upon us.
I hope that we can become more educated and involve in this issue without any harsh but with the right knoledge upon us.
Tiffanie A. | 11:10 p.m. Feb. 14, 2008
Premises: 1) Migration, moving from one geographic location to another, is not a
moral issue; 2) Immigration laws are civil, secondary laws of order, not morally
based constitutional laws.
Why then are so many Utahns trying to make a moral crime out of a civil infraction? (Who appreciate tickets for rolling through a stop sign?)
That reasoning is a red flag that something else, is at the heart of the matter and not the fact that Latinos are "breaking visa laws". Based on my experience, generally Utahns are really uncomfortable about having to share their schools, supermarkets, roads with darker or "ethnic" looking, Spanish speaking people. If you're uncomfortable with people who don't share your exact same culture and looks, look inside yourself and decide what is it that REALLY bothers you about immigration. At this point few if any people are willing to accept that half of Latinos are in fact, residing legally in the US. The beauty of ineffective civil law is it can be CHANGED to reflect reality (our growing economy needing specialized and low-skilled laborers; we simply cannot man all of our business ideas with only US citizens.) Don't confuse crime/sin with infraction/amorality.
Why then are so many Utahns trying to make a moral crime out of a civil infraction? (Who appreciate tickets for rolling through a stop sign?)
That reasoning is a red flag that something else, is at the heart of the matter and not the fact that Latinos are "breaking visa laws". Based on my experience, generally Utahns are really uncomfortable about having to share their schools, supermarkets, roads with darker or "ethnic" looking, Spanish speaking people. If you're uncomfortable with people who don't share your exact same culture and looks, look inside yourself and decide what is it that REALLY bothers you about immigration. At this point few if any people are willing to accept that half of Latinos are in fact, residing legally in the US. The beauty of ineffective civil law is it can be CHANGED to reflect reality (our growing economy needing specialized and low-skilled laborers; we simply cannot man all of our business ideas with only US citizens.) Don't confuse crime/sin with infraction/amorality.
John Lambert | 1:28 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Any church member who tries to denounce the leaders of the church for coming
out in favor of the undocumented immigrants ought to consider why they are still
in the church.
Some people have gone so far in trying to preach that the church should oppose illegal immigrants I really think they should be brought before church disciplinary councils and tried for their membership.
Stop calling them criminals. THEY ARE NOT CRIMINALS. Is someone who was brought here as a two year old child a criminal.
Your pay is falling not because there are undocumented immigrants but because you have colaborated with the employers in deneying them regular immigrant status. If all immigrant were under regular status, than the minimum wage law would be enforceable and they would not fear to join unions, strike, or quit low paying jobs. You are blaming the victims of the exploitation for its existence. You have the exact same rhetoric flowing from your mouth that was used by anti-slavery people who wanted to keep slavery out of where they lived to keep wages high but had no problem with people having slaves elsewhere.
Some people have gone so far in trying to preach that the church should oppose illegal immigrants I really think they should be brought before church disciplinary councils and tried for their membership.
Stop calling them criminals. THEY ARE NOT CRIMINALS. Is someone who was brought here as a two year old child a criminal.
Your pay is falling not because there are undocumented immigrants but because you have colaborated with the employers in deneying them regular immigrant status. If all immigrant were under regular status, than the minimum wage law would be enforceable and they would not fear to join unions, strike, or quit low paying jobs. You are blaming the victims of the exploitation for its existence. You have the exact same rhetoric flowing from your mouth that was used by anti-slavery people who wanted to keep slavery out of where they lived to keep wages high but had no problem with people having slaves elsewhere.
John Lambert | 1:30 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Too many people in the church seem to have nothing but hate for undocumented
immigrants. What would you do if you knew someone in your ward had come to the
United States without documents. How would you treat them. If you can not
reach out to them with love and concern then how will you act.
Remember that Elder Uchtdorf fled East Germany illegally. He never recieved legal permission to leave, so are you going to refuse to sustain him since he is obviously an illegal emmigrant, never having recieved an amnesty for his illegal emmigration.
Remember that Elder Uchtdorf fled East Germany illegally. He never recieved legal permission to leave, so are you going to refuse to sustain him since he is obviously an illegal emmigrant, never having recieved an amnesty for his illegal emmigration.
John Lambert | 1:40 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Anonymous at 7:44 has such hate towards other children of God that I figure he
must have spent too much time wathing the news and too little reading the
scriptures.
This idea that all undocumented immigrants go around stealing people's identity is the type of devisive rhetoric that we do not need. We have a choice, the church can be an inclusive organization that will grow. Or we can take an attitude towards the over 10% of the US population that has undocumented immigrants in their family that will stop the church from having any ability to grow among such people.
This idea that all undocumented immigrants go around stealing people's identity is the type of devisive rhetoric that we do not need. We have a choice, the church can be an inclusive organization that will grow. Or we can take an attitude towards the over 10% of the US population that has undocumented immigrants in their family that will stop the church from having any ability to grow among such people.
John Lambert | 1:39 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Dug,
If you are LDS and hold to your belief than why do you contradict the teachings of the church leaders? Why are you so unwilling to share the blessings you have with others? Why do you think you have such a claim on God's blessings to us that you can deney it to others? And how can you live with yourself exploiting the cheap labor of immigrants in what you buy but being unwilling to give them any rights?
To respond to the person who accuses church members of doing nothing to help those in under developed countries, what are these things called Church Humanitarian Services and the Perpetual Education Fund anyway?
If you are LDS and hold to your belief than why do you contradict the teachings of the church leaders? Why are you so unwilling to share the blessings you have with others? Why do you think you have such a claim on God's blessings to us that you can deney it to others? And how can you live with yourself exploiting the cheap labor of immigrants in what you buy but being unwilling to give them any rights?
To respond to the person who accuses church members of doing nothing to help those in under developed countries, what are these things called Church Humanitarian Services and the Perpetual Education Fund anyway?
John Lambert | 1:47 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
Too many people forget about the families that would be broken up if we were
to mass deport undocumented immigrants.
And what about all the church members who continued to practice polygamy after laws were passed against us. Joseph F. Smith had the audacity to introduce two of his wives to President Taft, not only breaking the law in doing so but in the most public way possible.
Drinking coffee is breaking the laws of God, crossing international borders is breaking the laws of man.
I still wonder though how people know that there are undocumented immigrants in their stake.
And what about all the church members who continued to practice polygamy after laws were passed against us. Joseph F. Smith had the audacity to introduce two of his wives to President Taft, not only breaking the law in doing so but in the most public way possible.
Drinking coffee is breaking the laws of God, crossing international borders is breaking the laws of man.
I still wonder though how people know that there are undocumented immigrants in their stake.
Boyd | 8:19 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
There are lots of illegals here. They live 10+ to apartments with no furniture.
They're always mad. They came for a piece of the American dream and find
that there is only one pie and their piece is too small and getting smaller.
Make all the laws you want, they ignore the present ones, why would they listen to new ones?
Go down to the border at say, El Paso Texas and look across. Why would anyone stay there when just on the other side they can see a better something that will never exist in Mexico.
Get Mexico to get it's collective head out of the sand. Quit supporting their drug cultivation, that money is killing Mexico. Get the Mexican government to allow foreign investment in Mexico. Make Mexico a place where jobs are created and not illiterate people are born with no hope.
Make all the laws you want, they ignore the present ones, why would they listen to new ones?
Go down to the border at say, El Paso Texas and look across. Why would anyone stay there when just on the other side they can see a better something that will never exist in Mexico.
Get Mexico to get it's collective head out of the sand. Quit supporting their drug cultivation, that money is killing Mexico. Get the Mexican government to allow foreign investment in Mexico. Make Mexico a place where jobs are created and not illiterate people are born with no hope.
Judy | 8:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
John Lambert You are condemning anyone and everyone who doesn't see things
in your way. I really don't like reading your malarkey! You are too full of
yourself and seem to hate for others who don't think like you. You have
twisted mind!
John McCain | 8:51 a.m. Feb. 15, 2008
I know what to do!
Let's give free citizenship to criminals!
Let's not stop there!
How about American citizenship for people still in Mexico!
How about American citizenship for terrorists!
I'm John McCain, and I have to admit I approve of this sad message.
Let's give free citizenship to criminals!
Let's not stop there!
How about American citizenship for people still in Mexico!
How about American citizenship for terrorists!
I'm John McCain, and I have to admit I approve of this sad message.
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The reason why it's hard to get permission for legal immigration is simple. There are already to many illegal people here. A country can only absorb so many before it affects the standard of living and workers rights.
MSM: That's not a majority of the senate and would not of passed.