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Senators OK 3 bills boosting education
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Tab L. Uno | 12:37 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Some of the most exciting education legislative moves on the hill in years.
Republicans seems to be stepping up and begining to deal with this important
issue. My first congratulations to Sen. Stephenson ever.
Bad idea | 1:42 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
I don't see how this will be a good thing for a lot of families that plan
trips and other activities during the summer months. It seems like it would be
very disruptive to scout camp, family reunions and other things that
traditionally happen during the summer.
My daughter is interested in a career in animation and uses the summer months to attend community college drawing/painting courses. If her High School adopts some sort of a year-round program, it would greatly impact her opportunity to participate in these kind of courses.
This would also make it that much harder for high-school aged students to obtain summer jobs, as employers would be reluctant to hire these young workers if they only have a couple of weeks off between year round school classes.
The last point is a lot of students choose to take summer courses to either graduate early, or retake a course they struggled with to catch up. If there isn't a long break like summer vacation, would there still be a way for students to have this option?
My daughter is interested in a career in animation and uses the summer months to attend community college drawing/painting courses. If her High School adopts some sort of a year-round program, it would greatly impact her opportunity to participate in these kind of courses.
This would also make it that much harder for high-school aged students to obtain summer jobs, as employers would be reluctant to hire these young workers if they only have a couple of weeks off between year round school classes.
The last point is a lot of students choose to take summer courses to either graduate early, or retake a course they struggled with to catch up. If there isn't a long break like summer vacation, would there still be a way for students to have this option?
Anonymous | 6:39 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Year round school should never be implemented in High School. Doing so disrupts
so much more making things like college admissions, band, choir AP and other
such programs more likely to fall on the cutting room floor.
Sure legislators like the idea. It did fail when done in California, so naturally they are attracted to it like a fly to dead meat.
Sure legislators like the idea. It did fail when done in California, so naturally they are attracted to it like a fly to dead meat.
Comments continue below
RaDene | 7:54 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Interesting idea.... I'd like my representatives to ask the following
questions before deciding pro or con on Sen. Stephenson's idea.
1) the summary says under this proposal Students would only be required to attend 180 days - it's the teachers and schools that would be open 220. Does that mean that this 'year round school' would just be for remediation (catching students up to grade level), optional academic or vocational 'summer courses' or other educational 'enrichment' opportunities (like a science camp at school?)
2) I can see that paying teachers for an additional 40 days of work would increase their teaching pay, but would it reduce their annual income - making it difficult for them to work in the seasonal jobs they traditionally do to augment their low teacher salaries?
1) the summary says under this proposal Students would only be required to attend 180 days - it's the teachers and schools that would be open 220. Does that mean that this 'year round school' would just be for remediation (catching students up to grade level), optional academic or vocational 'summer courses' or other educational 'enrichment' opportunities (like a science camp at school?)
2) I can see that paying teachers for an additional 40 days of work would increase their teaching pay, but would it reduce their annual income - making it difficult for them to work in the seasonal jobs they traditionally do to augment their low teacher salaries?
Anonymous | 9:03 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
This is something that needs to be implemented, but will fail and exacerbate the
teacher shortage if something isn't done to empower teachers and improve
school discipline. I am a teacher and my colleagues are saying they would
retire earlier or get out of teaching if schools went year round. We simply
can't handle the stress of being responsible for students who really
don't have to obey us.
Laurence Abel
Laurence Abel
Mariposa | 9:15 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Pastghistory most of the time is an indicator of future behavior. Howard
Stephenson and Chris Buttars have long been opponents of public education and
have voiced as much many times. Any idea that they sponsor/approve is
immediately suspect. I hope that legislators will look beyond the "good
idea" to see the ulterior motives of these two. Chris Buttars has admitted
that he does not read the bills that cross his desk, so how does he know this is
a good bill? His buddy told him so.
Anonymous | 9:22 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
The year round bill sounds great but will cause so many disruptions to families
that it will be dead before it even starts.
Why do we keep trying things that have failed over and over again and then call them new innovations?
Why do we keep trying things that have failed over and over again and then call them new innovations?
Ed | 9:29 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
I am just amazed at how the legislators believe that if they apply market place
models to public education that it is going to impact in a positive way.
Students will then HAVE to attend school daily because if they do not then they will be required to withdraw (just like getting fired from a job). Students will have to do their work EVERY DAY or.....Students will have to be respectful to their teachers (just like being respectful TO THEIR EMPLOYER).....Oh my goodness, I am in favor of this!!
Please, legislators.....give us the marketplace so that we as educators can function as if what we do IS the marketplace...and then see what happens!
Students will then HAVE to attend school daily because if they do not then they will be required to withdraw (just like getting fired from a job). Students will have to do their work EVERY DAY or.....Students will have to be respectful to their teachers (just like being respectful TO THEIR EMPLOYER).....Oh my goodness, I am in favor of this!!
Please, legislators.....give us the marketplace so that we as educators can function as if what we do IS the marketplace...and then see what happens!
look at yourself | 9:31 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Legislators, teachers would be interested in differentiated pay as soon as the
legislators start making their pay differentiated. When a Salt Lake Senator
agrees he should be paid less than a Provo senator simply because he isn't
needed as much, teachers will happily do the same!
David | 10:41 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
The answer is smaller schools! They are better academically. They are safer.
Parents are more satisfied. Teachers are happier. Check out my website for the
research supporting this at www.smallerschools.org. Concerning retaining
teachers, one article at this site "Smaller, Safer, Saner, Successful
Schools" p. 13 says:
"A number of studies concluded that teachers in small schools are much more satisfied than are teachers in large schools (Bryk, Raywid). A study of more than 2,400 Midwestern superintendents shows they recognize the importance of small schools in retaining faculty. In fact, urban, rural, and suburban superintendents whose districts have restructured schools to make them smaller rated this action the single most effective way to retain teachers (Hare).
We also need community-sized school districts. These two things will be more likely to bring about long-lasting improvement and do what everyone else is wanting.
"A number of studies concluded that teachers in small schools are much more satisfied than are teachers in large schools (Bryk, Raywid). A study of more than 2,400 Midwestern superintendents shows they recognize the importance of small schools in retaining faculty. In fact, urban, rural, and suburban superintendents whose districts have restructured schools to make them smaller rated this action the single most effective way to retain teachers (Hare).
We also need community-sized school districts. These two things will be more likely to bring about long-lasting improvement and do what everyone else is wanting.
Anonymous | 11:13 a.m. Jan. 31, 2008
More pay = more teachers
A first grader could tell you that...
A first grader could tell you that...
Ed | 12:22 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
David, I am sure that teachers in smaller schools are more satisfied than
teachers in larger schools. However, it does not translate into cost
effectiveness for schools and districts. There is that fine line that districts
have to walk, and another fine line that parents say to never cross. That fine
line deals with raising taxes in order to pay for services. The U. of Utah
study that came out a year ago dealing with large vs. small districts showed
that larger districts can provide greater cost savings to the taxpaying public
than smaller ones. There in "lies the rub". Everyone wants smaller
schools and districts but no one wants to pay for it. When the final bill comes
around on the split in Jordan....I will bet the RANCH that taxes will go up on
both sides of the valley and people are going to be screaming, especially on the
eastside. They voted for it and they deserve what they are going to get.
Scott | 1:51 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
To Anonymous:
More pay does not equal more teachers. In fact with Senator Stephenson's bill, it depends on fewer teachers, because none of the money allocated for this program goes for the extra pay for teachers. It is only for building costs, electricity, etc. (M&O money). The money to pay for the 40% increase in a teachers salary comes the assumption that with teachers teaching 220 days, there will be fewer needed, so some will have to leave and go to other districts. Their salaries will be used to pay the extra 40% that the remaining teachers receive.
Look at SB51(amended), lines 68-74 to see what the grant money can be used for. It isn't teachers' salaries.
SO in this case "More pay = less teachers".
More pay does not equal more teachers. In fact with Senator Stephenson's bill, it depends on fewer teachers, because none of the money allocated for this program goes for the extra pay for teachers. It is only for building costs, electricity, etc. (M&O money). The money to pay for the 40% increase in a teachers salary comes the assumption that with teachers teaching 220 days, there will be fewer needed, so some will have to leave and go to other districts. Their salaries will be used to pay the extra 40% that the remaining teachers receive.
Look at SB51(amended), lines 68-74 to see what the grant money can be used for. It isn't teachers' salaries.
SO in this case "More pay = less teachers".
Scott | 1:52 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Sorry, that should have read SB41.
To: Anonymous | 2:07 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Smart. It reminds me of master yoda in Star Wars talking to his young students.
Sometimes the most obvious answer is so hard to see. Until Utah's
legislators get a clue you're going to see teachers numbers/ quality
continue to slide. The avalanche is coming.
I am a teacher of ten years. I remember receiving a letter from Gov. Leavitt's aids regarding pay and my frustration saying work a few years and you'll see your pay and situation improve. Well its been 10 years- gas has tripled in price, food has doubled, housing costs have doubled, and teacher pay has done nothing. I have made less and less each year. After some discussion, my wife has told me enough is enough. As a band director my groups have continually ranked among the states top 5, but what difference does it matter? I am paid the same as all other directors on the same pay scale. Utah doesn't reward exceptional teaching. I already work year round with summer marching band, yet the district pays me only a small stipend for an activity I am expected to do- same with basketball and football games.
Alta High, you'll miss your football coach
I am a teacher of ten years. I remember receiving a letter from Gov. Leavitt's aids regarding pay and my frustration saying work a few years and you'll see your pay and situation improve. Well its been 10 years- gas has tripled in price, food has doubled, housing costs have doubled, and teacher pay has done nothing. I have made less and less each year. After some discussion, my wife has told me enough is enough. As a band director my groups have continually ranked among the states top 5, but what difference does it matter? I am paid the same as all other directors on the same pay scale. Utah doesn't reward exceptional teaching. I already work year round with summer marching band, yet the district pays me only a small stipend for an activity I am expected to do- same with basketball and football games.
Alta High, you'll miss your football coach
To Scott, | 2:30 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
Very insightful. Thank you.
I hope legislators are reading this message board and not just listening to their buddies as Mariposa noted.
I hope legislators are reading this message board and not just listening to their buddies as Mariposa noted.
GRUMPY | 5:07 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
A project has just completed four years in Title I schools in five districts.
The results from Iowa test scores are now available for the 2007/2008 school
year. This comparison is of the 2006/2007 and the 2007/2008 in one district
with 28 schools.
Grade schools Title I 2006/2007 2007/2008
3 16 YES 35 %ile 36 %ile
3 ALL 28 59 %ile 50 %ile
Grade 5 had almost identical results. The point is that the 16 Title I schools held their own and the district overall dropped 9 %ile. Why!!!!
Grade schools Title I 2006/2007 2007/2008
3 16 YES 35 %ile 36 %ile
3 ALL 28 59 %ile 50 %ile
Grade 5 had almost identical results. The point is that the 16 Title I schools held their own and the district overall dropped 9 %ile. Why!!!!
Anonymous | 8:32 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
More pay = more people getting into education as a career instead of a two or
three year stint while hubby is in college.
Faulty Market Model | 9:29 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
The legislature likes to lecture us about market competition, but they always
seem to ignore the other end. If a prospective teacher is looking at Utah as a
place to teach, but has to work another 40 days to get the same amount of money
for working 180 days in Colorado, what would the most logical choice be? This
does nothing to solve the teacher shortage problem. The legislature reminds me
of shady car dealers or home mortgage lenders, who create confusions to
obfuscate what should be simple financial calculations. The real and only
solution is to simply pay more. It is basic Economics 101. If you can't
attract employees to your company because another similar business is paying
more, you have to either compete or go out of business. Dear Utah Legislature,
that is the true marketplace.
anon. | 10:21 p.m. Jan. 31, 2008
... and the unfortunate thing about legislators not paying attention to this
true marketplace is that it is the children who suffer.
Anonymous | 8:17 a.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I'm another teacher that will be looking to throw in the towel if my
district goes year-round. I just can't handle the stress. I'd rather
have a 9-5 job, 50 weeks a year (like I used to) that I can LEAVE AT WORK.
Paying me more to work more doesn't mean a thing. All this state is doing
is taking away my sanity time.
Econ 101 teaches supply and demand. Maybe a refresher course for those who propose/support this crap is in order.
Econ 101 teaches supply and demand. Maybe a refresher course for those who propose/support this crap is in order.
Scott | 9:42 a.m. Feb. 1, 2008
Just found out more about SB41 that I hadn't realized. This is one-time
money, not ongoing. It is intended to be money to help districts convert to a
year round schedule, like (quoted from the bill):
- Air conditioning
- Planning
- Community outreach and involvement efforts
- Instructional technology
- Professional development
Once they use this money to convert, Stephenson is convinced that the district will "find" money to allow them to continue to do it.
Also be aware that this money is "awarded" to one large district, one medium, and one small district only. Districts, if they want to participate (there is no requirement to participate) must submit a proposal to specify how this money will be used. The districts with the best proposals will get the money. I'm not sure about you, but I'm not sure that I see districts anxious to try this out.
- Air conditioning
- Planning
- Community outreach and involvement efforts
- Instructional technology
- Professional development
Once they use this money to convert, Stephenson is convinced that the district will "find" money to allow them to continue to do it.
Also be aware that this money is "awarded" to one large district, one medium, and one small district only. Districts, if they want to participate (there is no requirement to participate) must submit a proposal to specify how this money will be used. The districts with the best proposals will get the money. I'm not sure about you, but I'm not sure that I see districts anxious to try this out.
Another "Banner" year | 10:23 a.m. Feb. 1, 2008
Hey Howard, thanks again for the banner year in Education. I've been in
education for 12 years and it seems that politicians like to pacify the public
time and again. Public: don't be fooled by all the money pumped into
education. Of the "huge" raise they gave us last year, I only saw an
extra 100 bucks a month more because our insurance premiums went up by
100/month. Do you really think I can keep up with housing, gas, and groceries??
It is time to stop placing band-aids on public education. We're seriously bleeding to death in our schools. Hey, maybe if the legislatures each spent a day in our classrooms, they'd consider us more of a priority....
It is time to stop placing band-aids on public education. We're seriously bleeding to death in our schools. Hey, maybe if the legislatures each spent a day in our classrooms, they'd consider us more of a priority....
Wow | 10:30 a.m. Feb. 1, 2008
So us Social Studies, English, Music, etc. teachers will not be required to put
in as much time and effort as math and science teachers since we will be paid
less.
I mean, isn't that the basic market model you are talking about?
I mean, isn't that the basic market model you are talking about?
Government at work | 1:27 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
So you have figured a way to put extra money into education, without improving
the system, teachers morale or pay.
I guess it is payback for the whole voucher fiasco.
Make sure you put in a program destined for failure instead of improving education.
That will show the UEA for messing with you.
I guess it is payback for the whole voucher fiasco.
Make sure you put in a program destined for failure instead of improving education.
That will show the UEA for messing with you.
l | 2:34 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
Didn't the legislature get the message after the people of Utah voted down
vouchers that we don't want more money going to education?
Mark | 3:07 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I am a teacher and the 220-day schedule could work well. We could hire fewer
core subject teachers for each school and pay them more, because they would
frequently work summer hours and be paid for it. I know of MANY academic
teachers at my school who would be interested at making more money by working a
summer term.
There is an opportunity for summer athletics if we held a summer term.
We could then serve more students in each high school. High schools are extremely expensive to build. Why build more when we can increase student capacity by extending the school year?
Summer vacation has become an impossibility for many parents who have to work all summer. They often pull their kids out during the school year for family time. A 220-day schedule would increase scheduling flexibility for many families.
Remediation, gifted and talented programs and other issues could benefit from a longer schedule. Look at reality folks, school is changing and it will never be the same. For once, the conservatives in the legislature may actually be on the right side of the ball in this game.
There is an opportunity for summer athletics if we held a summer term.
We could then serve more students in each high school. High schools are extremely expensive to build. Why build more when we can increase student capacity by extending the school year?
Summer vacation has become an impossibility for many parents who have to work all summer. They often pull their kids out during the school year for family time. A 220-day schedule would increase scheduling flexibility for many families.
Remediation, gifted and talented programs and other issues could benefit from a longer schedule. Look at reality folks, school is changing and it will never be the same. For once, the conservatives in the legislature may actually be on the right side of the ball in this game.
Give me a break | 3:58 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
If you take away summer - the only time where teachers and students have a
chance to relax - then you take away everybody's sanity. I'm a
teacher that would quit right away if school ever cut summers out - it's
ridiculous! A teacher works harder than anyone ever realizes and if you take
that summer away - you're going to lose a lot of good teachers. Take
summers away from students and teachers? - give me a break!
teacher for the schedule | 7:55 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I am also a teacher who chose the profession specifically so that I would not
have to work when my own children are out of school. Teaching allows me to be
off when they are off, thus increasing my family time. This was the major
PERK, the real benefit that caused me to change my major to education. If I were
required to work 220 days a year I would simply QUIT and take a job in the
private sector.
Realist | 8:28 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I am a contributer to the teacher shortage. I taught math and was good at doing
so. I left the job because I couldn't make ends meet without working two
jobs and missing the lives of my young children. How many college graduates,
specifically teachers, and some with advanced degrees, are going to be willing
to take on the rigors of increased academic requirements, huge jumps in the cost
of living, and feel happy to be altruistic contributors to society when they are
unable to afford the average house in Utah? Teachers are smart people and the
smartest thing they are currently doing is leaving the profession in droves!
You are masters in learning and equip children with tools to be successful. Use
those tools for your own good and get out before its too late!
NevadaCoug | 9:20 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I am a teacher in Nevada. I had planned to eventually move back to Utah, where
I started my career. Reading some of these comments makes me wonder if that is
a good idea.
Really, the problem in education is that A) it is not valued by everybody, added to B) every child HAS to attend school.
I really believe that we should fix education by making High School optional. In fact, let's require kids to pass a proficiency test to even get into High School. Sound like a bad idea you say? Sound like I want to "deny" kids an education? We have the greatest second chance system in the world. It's called Community College. Some kids just aren't mature enough to handle High School, and teacher's shouldn't have to put up with those problems. Why are test scores falling? Because we spend half our time disciplining. Give me a class full of kids who want to learn because their parents taught them the value of education, and 180 days a year is MORE than enough. Education starts in the home.
Really, the problem in education is that A) it is not valued by everybody, added to B) every child HAS to attend school.
I really believe that we should fix education by making High School optional. In fact, let's require kids to pass a proficiency test to even get into High School. Sound like a bad idea you say? Sound like I want to "deny" kids an education? We have the greatest second chance system in the world. It's called Community College. Some kids just aren't mature enough to handle High School, and teacher's shouldn't have to put up with those problems. Why are test scores falling? Because we spend half our time disciplining. Give me a class full of kids who want to learn because their parents taught them the value of education, and 180 days a year is MORE than enough. Education starts in the home.
NevadaCoug | 9:22 p.m. Feb. 1, 2008
I often ask myself, "would I want my daughter to be in a class I
teach?" I have to answer no. Not because I think I'm a horrible
teacher, but because I don't want her around some of the kids I have to put
up with.
No amount of money or rule changes will fix the public education system. It's broken because too many of the students are just filling seats. Some of those, we teachers can reach. Most, it's too late; at least by the time they get to High School, anyway. And why? It all goes back to the home.
No amount of money or rule changes will fix the public education system. It's broken because too many of the students are just filling seats. Some of those, we teachers can reach. Most, it's too late; at least by the time they get to High School, anyway. And why? It all goes back to the home.
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