Deseret News | Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Lawmakers, LDS Church brainstorm

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Re:Bob | 8:59 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

"eveything to do with getting illegals to join the church..." Are you suggesting that they are easily manipulated? There's no conspiracy dude. And just because someone is an "illegal" doesn't mean they are incapable of making a knowledgable decision regarding religion.

To Bob: | 9:03 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Did you read the article, Bob? The church took NO POSITION on the issue. They just wanted legislators to remember that they were dealing with humans when making their decisions. Don't try to spin this as disobedience to immigration laws, otherwise you just make yourself look ignorant.

DN | 9:05 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Bob, take a chill pill! As for myself I believe we need to enforce current laws regarding illegal immigration and deal with the illegals that are currently here. Border security....have never figured that one out on why we haven't put more emphasis on it in the past. In regards to the Church's stance, (Making sure we remember the humanity) side of things is great counsel. We get so caught up in the emotional and hate side of things that we do not think things clearly through. Keeping cool heads is paramount. As for your snide remark regarding the church getting illegals to joint the church...UMM, that's what the church does whether you are legal or illegal. Teach the fulness of the gospel to ALL.

Comments continue below

PJ | 9:07 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Sad but true. Illegal immigration fuels church growth, and the Utah economy. Utah sold its soul, exchanging a once-beautiful valley for a polution-fouled expanse of concrete and asphalt.

Diana Butler | 9:09 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I don't think the Church is condoning breaking the laws. I think they are trying to follow Jesus' example of compassion for others. If we are only compassionate to those who obey the law then we will have very few opportunities for compassion. Christ's example with those seeking to stone the woman taken in sin is something we ought to keep in mind. "He who is without sin cast the first stone"...

This doesn't mean that there should be no consequence for illegal immigration. But I have been shocked by the venom projected towards these people in many of the discussions I have heard. I can't help but think that our self-righteous persecution (yes, persecution) of these people is the greater sin. Compare Jesus' comments on the sinners versus what he says about the hypocrites - or have you never broken the law?

The Church is a religious institution trying to save souls. I think they are totally justified in their counsel. What will be interesting is to see how many "good members" will listen and find constructive solutions.

Travis | 9:12 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

If you're referring to Rep. Chris Cannon, he works as a Congressman, not for the Deseret News.
I think you're right to some extent--the LDS Church has a lot of success among Hispanic immigrants in Utah. But they also know that the majority of Hispanics that come to Utah remain Catholic. I think it has more to do with the fact that the LDS Church is an international church, and a large part of its membership is in Central and South America. The Utah Church has a closeness to its Hispanic members worldwide. And they would rather have their members stay there, where the Church is weaker, than immigrate to Utah.
I think it has more to do with compassion. The Church isn't condoning disobedience of the law; it's trying to influence what the law is. And it hopes that immigration laws and policies don't ruthlessly split up families and deport everyone without any consideration of circumstances. I think that the Church would not want its members in Latin America to think that the Utah leaders don't care about how they're treated.

Exmormongirl | 9:13 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

There is a major problem happening here on so many levels. First, An obvious breech of seperation between church and state. Of course the LDS church wants illegals here. The reason why the church's membership numbers are growing the fastest in 3rd world countries is because they make promises of better lives to people who have very limited resources and are vulnerable. If the church follows its own party line, which is to obey the laws of the land, then there should be no question of support for deporting illegals and making sure they receive no benefits (through the church or otherwise) that take away from legal citizens. I am not uncompassionate, but illegal immigrants are just that...illegal. The church sees the illegals pouring across the borders and they see their membership numbers on a drastic up-swing. Nobody ever tells the truth when it comes to the LDS church influence.

Anonymous | 9:23 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

No representation without taxation!

NonUtahn | 9:25 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I applaud the LDS church for trying to put compassion back into laws. Obviously the LDS church isn't perfect and so as a citizen I feel it is my duty to encourage them to do good continually.

as for Bob's comments, the immigration situation isn't as black and white as you would want. The US for years has encouraged illegal immigration. These immigrants would like to earn a living for their families. Is that hard to understand? Obviously they broke a law but so did you when you pulled the tag off your mattress.
As a citizen I encourage the LDS church to come out in favor of legislation that helps families and discourage laws that harm them. If the LDS church wants to be seen as Christians they must come out in defense of all that is Holy in a compassionate way.

Shocked | 9:26 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I thought that we were supposed to have separation of church and state in the United States. Except in Utah!!!

Jerry | 9:27 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I guess I missed something concerning the LDS church condoning illeagl immigration. To be humanistic is not the same as condoning or ignoring the laws of a country.

SRS in AZ | 9:30 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I thought we were supposed to obey the laws of the land. It is against the LAW to enter this country illegally. Is the church being hypocritical on this?

arc | 9:32 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I agree that we need to be "Civil" about those that are her illegally. Many came here legally. Our own immigration laws have put them in a no win zone. We do need to solve some basics, and need to start there.

We need to stop people coming in to the country without knowing who the are. Secure boarders.
We need to stop the identity theft system that many illegals use, and create some alternative way of tracking them. Fines for using someone else's identity should be harsh.

We do need to fix the system. If people can't get work here, they will go home. It is amazing that people have been in this country for decades and are not legal. It takes a broke system to create that nightmare and it isn't going to be fixed by getting a train a shipping illegals back to Mexico...
What boarder do you send them to, as many are from all over the world?

Ray | 9:33 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

All they said was, "Be compassionate. Remember that these are human beings involved." How can anyone in their right mind take exception to that?

Anonymous | 9:33 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Why is everyone so paranoid about Desnews editing out comments? There are always so many controversial and opinionated comments on here...I just don't get it.

TBrooke | 9:35 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

This is a tough issue. I live in Calif and just recently they made 3 Spanish Dependent Branches in our Stake. These are good members. Just throwing them across the border is not the answer. Who will run the dairies, mow our lawns, and do whatever manual labor we as a society have grown acustom to? You might notice the economy is trouble. This will make it much worse.

Barbara | 9:36 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

this is exactly how it would be if romney were elected president. the LDS would control his actions.

Bob, settle down | 9:38 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

You're reading things into this article that just aren't there. Where did anyone say anything about not obeying immigration laws? And no, it wasn't implied, either. I am a staunch conservative and strongly believe that illegal immigration is a significant problem that has to be reigned in, but I, like the church, have been appalled at some of the vicious, bigoted things and outrageous generalizations that have been said about the illegals themselves. It is entirely appropriate for everyone on all sides of this issue--or any issue for that matter--to take a step back and remember that real people with real families, though different from our own, will be affected by what we do. Don't just assume that the LDS church is being disingenuous or implying anything other than exactly what they said. Is everything an LDS conspiracy to you?

Dawn Davis | 9:43 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Re: Bob I don't think it has anything to do with illegals joining the church.
I think it has to do with remembering who we are and who they are and realizing that we are not so different. That they and our ancestors came to America for the same reasons. To have a better life.
I don't know how to fix the laws, but I do know that I should be nice to my neighbors and accepting of those who are different.

Mimi | 9:45 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Rob, are you referring to obedience to Christ's commandment to love one another?

Ummm | 9:45 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Ok Bob, they aren't breaking the law! They are simply reminding people that yes, we do need order and rules, however, there are those who are forgetting that we are dealing with people here, not animals. They are reminding people to keep that fact in mind. They are not telling them to step aside and let them all do as they please.

Just curious Bob | 9:45 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Did Mr. Cannon edit any of your ramblings out?

Frank | 9:59 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The crime rate of illegal aliens is sky high. Those sitting in high places in the church are like the politicians in Washington. They are not exposed to these criminals in their everyday lives and want to send their welcome messages to them. I am going to re-evaluate my desire to pay tithing to the church who has liberals who go against the law and the laws of the church. Just read the 12th Article of Faith. (We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the LAW.)

Stewart | 9:59 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

"We should not demonize" illegal immigrants." The Church is right about this, and it shouldn't have to be said. However, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't "demonize" the cheap labor employers that hire them. The illegal aliens in a way are victims of the cheap labor employers and our government that has enabled them. Also, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't pass and enforce laws that stop the employment of those that are illegally in the country, so that they will simply leave, as work becomes difficult to find.
Remember the LDS Church(and Catholics as well) has its own reasons, just as cheap labor employers do, in enabling illegal immigration into the United States. That is their right, but it is also the right of citizens (including Mormons) to act in what they feel is the best interest of the state. The Church in this case has had a tendency to ignore that pesky 12th Article of Faith. The Church has a world wide missionary program that can save souls in any country south of the border just as well as the in the United States. This is not a moral issue, it is economic.

Anonymous | 10:00 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

If there was a god, Joseph Smith would have been still born to save humanity his arrogance.

Tongue in Cheek | 10:04 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I think all illegals should be rounded up with their families, piled in the back of trucks like cattle, and deported. Oh, and while your at it throw in Bob and Carl. Seems like they ALL missed the point.

Watch out, Brethren | 10:12 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The church entered the debate a couple of years ago with a subtle, hardly noticed, change. They now will allow illegal aliens to serve as missionaries without returning to their home country. This puts the church in the position of aiding, abetting, and harboring. They are fully aware of the immigration status of the missionary and make his mission assignment to compensate (hence, they serve in the US to avoid crossing any borders).
Prior to that, the church could claim that they are not immigration agents and they have no business in members' lives until convicted.
So, the LDS version of "don't ask, don't tell" crossed the line.
As for being humane in our laws, how do they expect to create any semblance of deterrence without getting strong on enforcement? When the church has a General Conference talk encouraging members without lawful presence to return to their homeland and grow the church back home, give us a call.
Talks on tolerance are what got us here in the first place.

What?! | 10:26 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

How dare the Church allow Democrats to be members. That's just wrong!

To pose a question | 10:28 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The laws of the land are intended for people; therefore, only people can obey, or violate the laws. Therefore, interjecting a "compassion" factor because we are dealing with "humanity" is essentially meaningless as we are always dealing with "humanity" with regard to the violation of laws. Obviously, this just a cover for another agenda.

Mass illegal immigration has caused deterioration in the quality of life, ruined the schools, and massive budget deficits in California. Many Californians have come to Utah to escape that wretched mess. So why create incentives for more illegal aliens to come, or stay, in Utah??

They have broken the law, and should return to their native countries. This is the consequence of violating the law, and I, and most Americans, see nothing wrong, or uncompassionate in that.

Wayne | 10:58 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

To Provojo: How simple miinded are you? Does your view mean terrorists were led here by God?

Re Church comments on treating all people as human beings: Of course, but enforce the law...OK, do it with compassion, but enforce it. To me, the inference of the article is the Church wants illegals to be accepted.

I am also amazed that leaders meet with state politicians annually. Really?

Matt E. | 11:01 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I wonder what the church means by "compassion". It's not like any of Utah's lawmakers have denied that illegal immigrants are human beings or have argued against immigration itself. The issue the lawmakers are concerned with is line-jumping -- what to do with those who push others waiting in line to get what they want. There are many people in Mexico and around the world waiting in line to emigrate to America, and "compassion" would seemingly require us to protect the rights of those playing fairly, which means making those who pushed their way to the front to go get back in line.

An experienced immigrant | 11:05 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I'm not an immigrant but my wife is. Her and I have attended a Spanish speaking branch in Salt Lake. Calling the issue to a direction of humanity couldn't be more appropriate. My wife and I have tirelessly complied with the laws that are in place. Though I could become resentful toward those who fail to comply with these federal laws (which can be similar to filing taxes), I yet must say that I've felt that there are very specific elements (too boring for the average person to read) of the law that need to be altered so that there is a greater incentive by those who need to come forward and become a part of the society at large. I don't like taxes in general - I don't like thinking that my taxes went to pay the Uintah cop who tazered an innocent citizen. I don't like thinking that my taxes go to pay for a 'department' that rejected my sister-in-law a tourist visa (so that she could attend her sister's wedding) for absolutely no explainable reason. I support Mitt Romney as a whole, but on this issue I don't trust that he's merciful enough.

Anonymous | 11:08 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

What ever happened to separation of church and state? Why does the LDS church think that it should be allowed to have a say in anything around here? What about my rights to have a fair and just government, without undue influence or bias?

DR Don | 11:11 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I, too, feel love and compassion for illegal immigrants. I would love to compassionately move them all back to their country of origin, be it Pakistan, Mexico, Ireland or China.

Anonymous | 11:14 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Key to the whole thing, the LDS Church wants more converts, obeying the laws, honesty does not come into play, we can look to our very ethical law makers to know that. Send the families home and let Mexico or whatever government step up and educated and take care of their own. As a legal immigrant that had to go through the ropes, it makes me angry the the "CHURCH" is supporting illigal aliens - wonder if they would help take the burden of the tax payer and pay for the schooling and medical costs of their new illegal converts

read the article | 11:44 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I believe the lds church says that it comments on moral issues. The article mentioned that both the Republicans and Democrats were also meeting with another group of various religious leaders. I also believe that religious leaders such as Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, Billy Graham and the Teletubby guy meets regularly with government officials regarding moral issues. Don't accuse the church of being secretive and then not let them speak out on their views.

Bottom Line | 11:53 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The bottom line here is that the church knows that Utah has a huge percentage of its population that are hispanic and that a huge percentage of those hispanics are illegal aliens, and a large percentage of those illegal aliens are part of families and neighborhoods with huge church membership which equates to tithing, offerings and free labor for the church in those communities.

The Church preaches compassion and a more liberal view of the law only when it serves their financial interests. If the gay population of the church accounted for enough financial input, you can be sure that they would be more compassionate and liberal in their view of same-sex marriage and civil rights.

Utah is a shadow theocratically based legal system, wherein the Church acts as a lobbyist in purely secular affairs. Having their cake and eating it too... that's what Christianity, Judaism, Islam, and yes... Mormonism is about when push comes to shove. Theocracy is the antithesis of Democracy, as sectarianism is the antithesis of secularism. The Founding Fathers knew this which is why they established a government by the people, of the people, for the people... not churches!

Speeding | 11:55 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

That comment (above) about speeding is a good one. Utah is a state that made it nearly impossible to use a PhotoCop in West Valley City, something that actually stopped people from speeding (believe me, I drove through there every morning, and it was the only place on Bangerter that was moving at the speed limit).

I think the attitude in Utah is not "we must obey the laws." The attitude is "YOU must obey the laws, but I know what I'm doing and don't need to obey them."

Jerry | 11:59 a.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Clearly the Lord blesses all of his children. He just blesses the Republicans more, since it is clear that we adhere to His principles today. The democrats can be loved too, with counseling. The church clearly is demonstrating a Masterstroke here by reaching out to all parties.

we are all of imigrant heritage | 12:01 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I wish people really understood what is happening with the new immigration laws. I am an employer and I have a young father who has lived here since he was 5 years old went to school here graduated from high school at Provo High School. Obtained a tax ID number and has been working since he was 12 to help support his mothers family. He is now married to a local "american citizen" and they have 2 children. He only knows american culture and american ways but his mother never applied for citizenship for the children and now he is faced with trying to get a SS # and the prospects are grim. The imigration attorney we are working with to help him has indicated the very best case senario he might be able to get one in 6-8 months, worse case he will be shipped back to Mexico. That would leave a mother and two children on Welfare, devistate this man who loves his children and shut down a thriving business (he is the forman of my shop). I think we realy need to take a look at the human side. This only scratches the surface.

RayD | 12:21 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I live in Ohio. I have lived in Alabama and Massachusetts. Every large Christian denomination finds ways to express its views and concerns and feelings about political issues - and MOST do it in a much more intrusive way than holding meetings to discuss them. Most actively pick candidates and support them in very blatant ways.

If you think this is disturbing, live in the Deep South for a while. Evangelical and Southern Baptist leaders make Mormon leaders look like Boy Scouts in this regard.

Christian Evangelical | 12:22 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I am not Mormon, I am a Born Again Christian with strong evangelical views on life. But I admire the mormons and their church leaders for making sure the politicians remember God when they create laws. I applaud the mormons for doing this. We do the same thing in the Southeast, in the bible belt. Baptists, evagelicals, Assamblies of God, and others, WE LOBBY! Of course, we need to do it to protect our christian rights!

The Mormon Church has the right to lobby and counsel and advice politicians just as Billy Graham counseled several U.S. presidents.

We sould learn from the mormons and do the same thing in other states in the country.

disturbed 2 | 12:23 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

I agree 100 percent with "Disturbed" & "Utah Valley Resident" above. The real issue here is what the church says, and then turns around and does something complete different. The laws already in place are NOT being enforced. The church has it's hands in too many kettles to say it's not involved in politics.
Yes they can express their wishes but done this way they are nothing more than a lobbyist and should abide by lobbyist rules and full disclosure.

Voin Campbell | 12:24 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The LDS Church has, for many years, maintained a posture of not endnorcing political parties or candidates. That what they mean by staying out of politics, nothing more and nothing less. As the leadership its members everywhere, the LDS church has always spoken out and, hopefully, always will speak out on issues that directly impact the spiritual well being of its members, especially issure of principle and morality. For LDS leaders to do otherwise would be to abandon its membeship in the heat of a great moral battle, in which eternal souls are at risk.

Alan of Orem | 12:28 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

On Church influence in the legislature:

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (CoJCoLDS) does not "direct" the legislature in anything. As a prominent institutional citizen of the State, it requests, and is freely granted by both parties, an opportunity to express views. This is not coercion, but a freely agreed-upon meeting. IOW, the CoJCoLDS is free, like any citizen of Utah, to express (not impose) its views, and lawmakers are free to listen, which they choose to do.

On treatment of undocumented immigrants:

1. Only a relatively small proportion of Utah hispanic immigrants are LDS, or ever will be.

2. When Hispanic immigrants choose to join the CoJCoLDS, or seek temple privileges, they are *not* asked about their immigrations status. Not the Church's job.

3. I suspect that the CoJCoLDS is largely concerned about tearing families apart.

My own view:

- First: Build and use "the fence". Do it now.
- *After* it's built, drop most barriers to *legal* immigration. Quotas, etc.
- National ID system to track those who come in through airports as students, tourists, etc.
- Don't treat this is a culture war. Our society is, should be, and will remain a multicultural melting pot.

fredd | 12:36 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The story here that many glaze over to discuss immigration is that BEFORE EVERY GENERAL SESSION church leaders sit down with leaders of the house and senate. Don't ever tell me the mormon church is not involved in Utah politics. And yes there is a seperation of church and state in this country and yes this is a bviolation. Last year there was an article that said whenever a controversial bll is being considered they run it by the church because, 'without thier support it would never pass." This should end any discussion of the Mormon church running Utah.

Orson | 12:42 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

Wow. Most of the commenters here just don't get it. The church was talking to the lawmakers. That is, the people that make the laws, which are the things which determine if something is "illegal" or not.

We in this country have a terrible system in place. We tempt immigrants to come here to fuel our economy with their labor, then we punish them with a bureaucracy that makes it impossible for the legal immigration process to keep up with our demand for immigrant labor. A man who has been working in this country for years because our economy relied on his labor, and has a family, if deported, would have to take ten years working the system (with the help of a stateside immigration attorney) to get back in.

We're not talking about the Church thinking it's okay to break the law. We're talking about the Church urging compassion in crafting the law itself in the first place! We're not talking about "illegal" being okay. We're talking about having more compassion in determining what's "illegal."

Ignorant people always like to blame their problems on minorities. The label "illegal" simply gives us license to indulge in hatred and xenophobia.

Love and inforcement | 12:43 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

We can show human love at the same time we round the illegals up and shipem back. Ship back whole familys together. Bus fulls train fulls what ever it takes, but do it with love. Thats what I hear here.

An experienced immigrant II | 12:50 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

The church has a three fold mission - 1. Proclaim the Gospel, 2. Perfect the Saints and 3. Redeem the Dead. - it doesn't just 'want more converts' to have 'more converts' - 'it' "the church" has a work as well which is "to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man". In answer to the anonymous comment about the separation of church and state - I'm a member of the church and I live in this state. I served a mission in Panama and I've traveled to Mexico, Venezuela, and Peru. The people in Panama welcomed me with open arms when I was there. An LDS temple in Panama is being completed. I have very good friends there. I also have very good friends in Peru and Mexico. If there were to want to visit me, I wouldn't want to burden them with exhaustive interrogation. I can guarantee that they'd welcome me into their homes if I were to go there. They fed me and were extremely generous. There's elements of the current immigration situation that simply don't feel right. I also submit that justice is necessary, but without mercy justice is inhumane.

To Phebe, | 12:58 p.m. Jan. 19, 2008

WHAT is your problem? I am assuming you are a member of the LDS Church. And from your message, it seems clear you think you are greater, smarter, and better than the general authorities to issued this call for humanity and compassion. If you're not willing to concede to basic compassion, called for by the highest leaders of your church, and you actually do think you are better and smarter than the general authorities, perhaps you'd better high-tail it OUT of the church, and keep your nasty opinions to yourself. They are making us all look terribly bigoted. If you are not a member of the LDS church, then good. I'm relieved.

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