Deseret News | Reader comments: 'Average' isn't acceptable

Reader comments
'Average' isn't acceptable

Curtis B. | 6:39 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

I agree that average isn't acceptable, especially since the average in math education since I attended public schools in the 1970's has gone considerably down hill. I complained to my son's physics teacher that he wasn't having the students learn why the formulas he was giving them were true. He said that when he first started teaching he did, but that students are no longer mathmatically prepared to be taught this anymore. The decline in math education is nation wide not just in Utah. Senator Howard Stephenson to his credit is trying to get math standards in Utah raised, but this is not enough, teachers and especially math teachers need to be paid more. In the fundamental learning years, grade school, we especially need better quality education. Why not from 4th grade and higher have the teachers who teach math, teach math exclusively, as is done in the Junior High and High Schools? Also math education professionals need to stop playing games with math education, this is not a game, our children's and all of our futures depends on a quality education. No more of this nonsense such as has been happening in Alpine School district.

Actually, | 6:39 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

As long as the percentage of minority students is increasing and as long as we don't figure out how to teach them, our scores will stay stagnant.

liberal larry | 6:59 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Teaching in Utah is a tough sell. I know of a person who quit teaching to take a job driving a truck, for one of the utilities, because the pay and benefits where better!

Comments continue below

rolandkayser | 7:11 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Since we spend the least money of any state on education, the fact that we attain average results should be welcome news. As long as spending stays where it is, results will never get better.

dave | 7:55 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

HOw much education do you need to be a "rock star" or sport celebrity?

Dennis Lisonbee | 8:08 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Utah, wake up! Our students are no longer being prepared to compete globally. It is not an issue of money, but how it is spent. It's not how it's being taught, but what is being taught.

Granite District spends most of it's money on non-productive, non-classroom salaries. Superintendent Ronnenkamp makes over $215,000 a year, plus another $50,000 in benefits. His 7 other right hand beuracratics make over $100,000 each. Their offices are places and they have money to burn. On the other hand, much less than half the yearly district salary budget goes into actual teacher salaries. Many teachers in our school districts make close to $90,000.

Legislators are asking for higher academic standards yet Higher Ed education departments fight them by dumbing down academic standards across the board. Instead of raising core knowledge standards, education departments have stuffed their curriculum with fluff pedagogy courses and removed rigorous electives from English, Math and Science departments.

Utah, do some serious research on where the money goes in our districts and what classes are being taught in our education departments. I did, and I'm shocked. Now it sounds like someone in the media is shocked.

Dennis Lisonbee
Associate Professor
UVU

jeremykidd | 8:28 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

How ironic that the Deseret News, which editorialized strongly against the voucher proposal, now bemoans the fact that no one is willing to stick their necks out for change. Um, some people did, and the Deseret News and many others were more than happy to chop it off. Voters have spoken, and vouchers are dead, but it's time to accept that the vast majority of those who were in favor of vouchers were so not because they were evil, or because they hated children, but because they saw that something needed to change in Utah education, and they came up with a proposed solution. It may have been the wrong solution, but some people have been proposing solutions for some time now, and it shows either hypocrisy or willful ignorance on the part of the Deseret News to first take part in bashing those who proposed change, and now to wonder why no one is proposing change. Hmm....

uncannygunman | 8:33 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Truly, it is always a tragedy when anyone is only "average" at anything. Let us declare war on this evil science of statistics so that no one will be average (or, God forbid, below average!) ever again!

(Bonus: canceling statistics classes = less money spent on education and lower taxes)

Instereo | 8:40 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

It amazes me how bold innovative change includes everything but investing in public schools. Utah doesn't want to spend more money on education. Paying for smaller class sizes is done in such small amounts that it doesn't even pay for growth. It would take a huge investment just to get to "average" spending per pupil but no one is even looking at such a bold innovation as for paying for a world class education system. If Utah invested at an average level, there would be smaller class sizes, support programs for special needs students, extra help for teachers with curriculum and services for students to use when they are struggling. All it seems Utah has right now is people yelling for education to do more with less. That seems pretty short sighted to me.

Grandma Jean | 8:55 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

In California, my grandchildren are being home-schooled through an online academy. Curricula is supplied by the schools plus one computer per family. This takes four children out of public classrooms. There is no cost for the teacher or building. The academy oversees the students with a monthly visit. Activities are held with families who are members of the academy. For my daughter and her family this is a win-win situation. Not everyone wants to homeschool. Not everyone wants or is able to use vouchers. But for each student who uses these resources it is one less child in a classroom. Let's offer more alternatives to parents. And yes, those who are more financially secure may benefit more in the eyes of some. But in reality, less students per teacher will benefit those who remain in the public system.

Dear Dennis Lisonbee | 9:07 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Please tell me you put more preparation into your lesson plans then you did into this uniformed rant about education spending. If not, now I know why education seems to be failing.

The latest figures I found in a quick search place your comments squarely in the realm of fiction. According to the 2004 Census, the average amount of money spent on district administration (not including school principals) nationally was $166 per student. In Utah the average was $57.

I am sure that amount has gone up in the past three years, but even if it went up to $70-$80, it still doesn't support your claim that all the money goes to administrators. The Utah Taxpayer Association claims the state spends $7,000 per student. So, it looks like approximately 1% of that is spent on district administrators

Amazing | 10:15 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Isn't amazing how half of the students, states, schools always fall below the mean and nearly the same for average!? Yes the schools are failing, it is obvious in the complete lack of understanding of statistics in the general public. The average Utah student performs nearly in line with the average national student on a uniformly administered test. What does that tell us? That in Utah students are equally prepared to take the Iowa standard as students throughout the nation. Nothing more or less. These tests do not predict future success or competitiveness. Let's not be so reactionary as to think that standardized testing in limited subjects is the end all, be all yard stick in measuring student performance or school success.

Utah Teachers | 10:27 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

We can't improve education until you send us more money.

Don't even talk about anything else until you address the money issue.

To Amazing 10:15 a.m | 10:42 a.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Yes average would be acceptable, if at the national level, the performance was acceptable. In math education it is not. Compared to where we were 20 or so years ago, we have declined significantly. So therefore average is not acceptable.

Amazing | 3:20 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

@ 10:42
Show me the data...
As best I can see, we have declined in rank, not in substance. More high school students are taking and passing calculus today than 20 years ago. SAT math scores are the highest they have been in 30 years. I'd like to know where the "significantly" declined information is coming from.

Sorry, Editors | 3:28 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

When you supported maintaining the educational status quo last fall, you lost your right to complain that the government schools aren't any better than they are.

Chuck | 4:53 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Someone did make a major change and show leadership, and it is being implemented in Jordan District with a division of the district. It's not enough, but is a major step in the right direction. We need to get smaller districts with smaller schools. That will provide the probability of improvement, though still not ensured. That will depend on individual parents and teachers working together. Beyond that and funding it adequately, the Governor, State Superintendent, and the legislature can only make it more difficult by interfering.

Charles Stewart | 4:59 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

You shouldn't lament below average student scores. The people of Utah recently voted to retain a public education system that resists testing as a way to measure outcomes. In this electronically driven infomation age, our children will become educated with or without public schools. Motivated students will succede on their own. When people road horses, blacksmith shops flourised. When people chose cars over horses these shops either changed by supplying tires instead of horseshoes, gasoline instead of hay or they closed. Our children are using cellphones, text-messaging, laptops and the cyber space information highway to become educated. The public education monopoly forces them to attend blacksmith-shop day-care schools that are becoming irrelevant as education centers. In a more sane world, these schools would have to change or close. They have no incentive to change. They are guaranteed all our tax money and perpetual existance. "Heads" only "roll" when those paying the bill (the parents) can choose the education they want to purchase with their money just as car owners chose service stations over blacksmith shops. But the people of Utah voted to retain the blacksmith shops. Please don't give my taxes to the blacksmiths. Make them earn it by changing.

Anonymous | 6:55 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

You get what you pay for.

Enough said.

Anonymous | 6:55 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Lowest in funding = average test scores.

Sounds like we are getting a bargain.

Anonymous | 6:56 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

Just think what Utah's great teachers could do if we raised funding to even 40th in the nation?

I just read where Sen. Stephenson wants to buy software to improve education.

What are the kids supposed to run it on? We need computer in the schools before we get software...

Dear Whoever | 9:53 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

I have done my homework. The highest paid Administrators in Granite earn over $4,800,000 dollars. Yes, that is Four Million Eight Hundred Thousand Dollars. The superintendent earns over $200,000 plus another 40 to 50 thousand in benefits. It would be helpful if the public studied the figures I've studied. district salaries are public record and I'll stand by my statement that we need to take most of the administrative overhead and slide it directly into hiring new teachers to reduce classroom size while putting together a merit pay system that rewards our best teachers.

Dennis Lisonbee

to Amazing 3:20 | 10:04 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

A main area where we have fallen short is in proofs. Geometry is weak on this compared to 20 years ago. In pre-calculus, we don't derive the formula for the conic sections any more. In physics, formulas are just handed out and the teacher doesn't give the derivation of the formulas. If our SAT or ACT test scores are higher, it is only because proofs are not tested for. Without proofs or derivations young people could never do what Einstein or others did, that is come up with their own formulas.

Mahershalalhashbaz | 11:37 p.m. Jan. 14, 2008

I would like Dennis Lisonbee to write a letter to the editor similar to the one he wrote here with sources. That would be extremely interesting to read, and an eye opener to 99% of the public. Please list names too if you could.

Oak Norton | 6:38 a.m. Jan. 16, 2008

What's missing from this article is that Utah's predominantly white population (82%) which outscores minorities across the board, can't muster more than national average as a whole. Viewed demographically our math scores are in the bottom 3rd at 4th grade and bottom 6th at 8th grade...slipping over time.

Yes teachers need more pay, but it can't be across the board. It has to be payment for quality teaching and results and we have to recognize that the value of a good math teacher is higher than the value of a good PE teacher.

We also need to eliminate the worst programs being pushed by the education establishment. A handful of people are destroying our student's future by pushing constructivism and discovery learning. Many teachers recognize this problem but more need to speak up about it and help quash it before it's too late. Alpine school district was the worst offender but there are others.

Oak

Add your comment

Comments are monitored. Any comments found to be abusive, offensive, off-topic, misrepresentative, more than 200 words or containing URLs will not be posted.

Words Remaining

E-mail address: For internal use only. We may want to contact you to publish your comment (not your e-mail address) in the newspaper or for a separate story idea.