Reader comments
Little gain on class sizes

While many will rant about large families as the usual rhetorical scapegoat in Utah for everything, the reality in Utah is that people are moving into the state in droves. On top of that is the underground, unnoticed, and undocumented Mexican population that plays a role in this off the books, so to speak.

But that only answers the population side of the question--and its pretty simple from there. All we have to do is just provide and pay for the number of teachers we need to get the size we want.

What really needs to happen is for society to re-examine its priorities for education spending. For example, giving a football coach three prep periods to review game film and deal with the media may not be as much of a priority for schools of the future as putting students into the classroom during those periods with that money.

Unfortunately, Utahns missed a great opportunity to remedy this problem when they let the UEA (which doesn't give a hoot about educating children) hoodwink them into defeating the parental choice referendum.

Fee Waivers are another factor that influences the cost of education. There are High Schools in the Granite School District where the majority of the Student Body is on "Fee Waivers." In other words, these students, because of their economic status get a "free" education... play on sports team "free". Someone has to absorb those costs. Yes, the schools are reimbursed for each student on a fee waiver but only at 60%. The school has to come up with the rest of the money... multiply this over the number of students ( half of a studentbody) on a fee waiver and you find that many programs are not being funded properly.

Homer, you are right about the role of athletics in high schools. It would be interesting to find out how much of the average school's resources are spent on coaches, travel etc.

If the people of Utah want better education, then we need to spend the money to make it happen. It really is that simple. Gov. Huntsman should be worrying about this instead of trying to save the world from global warming.

Homer,

Having subbed for multiple Football coaches I have never seen one that had more than the standard one period of preparation. They teach gym classes for the most part, sometimes Driver's ed and one even had half his periods for English classes.

Bill,

Thank goodness we the people defeated that awful piece of garbage. The Parents Choice Act was a sham document that as it progressed would have helped the fewest number of children, most of which would be the ones that needed the least assistance. Eventually the legislature would come back and tie the funding to Education dollars and the Act would have harmed Public Ed. This is Utah after all, and that is how the government here acts.

Legislators,

It should have made sense that underfunding the system for two decades would mean that the band-aid approach of class size reduction wasn't going to work. Costs have gone up well beyond the monies put into it and we are woefully behind. Thanks for the effort to start funding salaries. We'll hopefully get to a living wage at some point. What has been done is appreciated, just not the complete job.

We talk about "class size" but what's really reflected in the report is "pupil-teacher ratio", the number of students in relationship to the number of certificated teachers. Many teachers don't have a classroom of students assigned specifically to them, like special education teachers, counselors, or reading specialists. That means that the ACTUAL number of students in any given classroom is even higher than what is reported. The only way to lower the number is to hire more teachers and change the ratio. We can't tackle it all at once, but we don't build every road in the same year, or retrofit every building at once either. It takes a commitment to make long term incremental efforts to do more than fund the status quo. Let's start with the public demanding that elected leaders be responsive and responsible. They're talking tax cuts already, cuts that will come from public education funding. It's an election year and giving citizens a token tax cut (and corporations more ways to avoid paying their fair share)guarantees that our children will never know the benefits of smaller class sizes and well paid, successful teachers.
It's not a budget surplus until our state's needs are met.

The answer is simple but not easy. End tax breaks for having kids need to end. And better auditing of administrators. They pretty much such up all the cash they can and send the rest downstairs. The UEA bashing is just sour grapes by the uninformed.

Be responsible and quit having so many kids unless you are willing to pay more for them.

I don't know what the author of this article is talking about. The money was to raise salaries because of the streams of teachers leaving the state. It specifically stated that teachers were to get a $2500 raise and a one time bonus of $1000. How can anyone expect smaller classes from that?

Want better education for the students? BHan the teachers unions. Their function is to line their own and teachers pockets, not educate students.

All reasons you stated are true.

In our district, enrollment was projected to go down. The school board planned accordingly. We even closed some schools to save the tax payers money. Then the immigration went crazy and class sizes exploded! No one could plan for that. We now have schools that are 40% ESL and 70% free or reduced lunch.

Now we are looking at class sizes of 32 - 35 with no relief in sight. During that time benefits have been cut to the bare bones. Teacher morale is at an all time low.

So there are two possible solutions. Fix immigration or put a whole lot more money into the schools.

Since no one seems to care about immigration, I hope the money is on its way.

Actually anonymous, I believe you can take out lining teachers pockets from the function of the teachers' union...they don't even do that. Am I right that in addition to pointing out the horrible fiscal discipline in a number of school districts who aren't even reporting how the public's money is being spent, that the article is also saying that $700 million in money aimed at reducing class size resulted in hiring a net of only 2 teachers? That's a bad investment, Jr.

This is the result of mixing politicians and unchecked unions, and a very sympathetic media (like Deseret News) who have yet to find a tax they don't like.

Rest assured, they'll all be back asking for more money and, with tears in our eyes, we'll plead with the legislature to take more from us, the gullible masses. (These are the same masses stirred up in anger as the costs of gas and medical care go up, but have no problem with increased government profiteering.)

In business, this is called misappropriation of funds, or fraud. Beyond that, I call it lunacy.

So, Utah is at the bottom of spending per pupil, but, we rate high on national tests. Maybe the other states need to spend less on education. It may improve their scores and our position in the list. :)

Dave - You are obviously clueless about the teacher's associations in Utah. They are not "unchecked unions" in this state. Get your facts right before you go off on a rant. They actually do a lot to help develop good teaching practices and provide for the development of a sound profession. Because you are apparently easily swayed by rhetoric, you think of NEA, UEA, etc. as something other then they are - professional organizations that offer a myriad of benefits to members, one of which is negotiation of contracts which includes things like class size, working conditions, benefits, and salaries. Is that so wrong?

yes to walkon's comments, i have kids and am willing to pay for them (taxes for their education) whereas my neighbor, a veteran on a fixed income, gets no breaks, yes he is responsible for the education of our next generation, but we, who have kids, should carry a greater financial responsibility for their education, the state tax exemption per child must be re-examined and eliminated, if we choose to have the kids we should be financially able and responsible to educate them, meaning no tax breaks, we need to fund their education in a reasonably sized class (not 35 as in one class in my child's school)..........

Charter schools were started with the idea that they could be laboratories to find innovative ways educate students. Most of us have smaller class sizes - and the first question I usually get from visitors to our school is - how do you do this on the same or smaller budget received per pupil?

Those who oppose charter schools have an answer - they say that because we have enrollment caps (we are allowed a certain number of students maximum) we don't have the same fiscal challenges. This was mentioned in the article.

This answer is silly, of course. We educate a certain number of students on the same or a bit less per pupil funding than traditional districts.

We do it by having control over how we prioritize our spending, and responding to what our parents want. If we don't, we lose our students, and the funding that goes with them.

Our K-1 classes have 24 students Grade 2 has 26, Grade 3-4 28, Grades 5-6 30. Each class has a certified teacher AND a full-time paraprofessional.

Students spend 2.5 hours each day in even smaller "groups" for reading, spelling and math.

There is a way!

The class size arguement is a crock.

When I went to elementary school many years ago at McMillan, I was never in a class smaller than 35 students. I don't think that my education lacked due to class size. My teachers did a great job with all of us. There were fast learners, slow learners, and the rest of us in the middle. Of the 38 in my 6th grade class, all but 3 (that I know of) graduated from high school.

The continual harping on reducing class size is just another excuse to throw money at teachers. Make the school districts accountable for what they spend. Get the UEA out of the classroom. Teachers should be paid on merit. Pay them based on how they teach. The better teachers need to get paid more. The worse teachers need to get paid less, or get out. Education won't get any better by throwing more money at it.

Class sizes cannot be reduced under the current system since the State mandates a minimum number of students per class that is higher than the National average. In our school, the student population will be reduced by about 10 students (in the whole school) for next year and the school will have to eliminate one teaching position. As it is, the average class size for the 6th grade in our school (3 classes) is down to about 25 students per class. One of the lower grades (where the net loss of students may occur) will lose one teacher and either have jumbo class sizes or will have a "split" where a teacher has students from two different grades in his/her class room. If the State would lower the minimum class size to something closer to that of other states, then we would be on the right track.