Deseret News | Pundit bashes Mitt, Mormons

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Scott D. Pierce: Pundit bashes Mitt, Mormons

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Pray for humility | 1:39 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

I fear that I may not have the humility to love Lawrence O'Donnell. I'll keep working on it though. In the meantime a quote from Neal A. Maxwell, "If the Church were not true, our enemies would be bored rather than threatened, and acquiescent rather than anxious. Hell is moved only when things move heavenward."

Jerry | 1:44 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Saying that Mormon's are racialy biased against the Blacks is way off the mark. In the early history of the church one of the top leaders gave a speach titled Free Men of Color. This later was published in the Church newspaper,The Melinial Star. It advocated freedom for the black people and set off a firestorm of persecution and murder against members of the Church. Missouri at that time was a slave state. The governor of the state issued the infamous extermination order which gave license to roving bands of malitias to steal and plunder. Does this sound like racial bigotry? Also the Church never has prohibited membership to blacks.

It doesn't have to be so bad | 1:45 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Yes, there will always be those who attack the Church. But the Church's inability or refusal to address some doctrines, history, practices, principles - whatever you want to call them - just leave those things hanging out there like a sore thumb. No one accuses Americans of being racist SIMPLY because this country used to practice slavery. Why? - because this country or leaders speaking for this country have clearly and forcefully stated that slavery was a terrible mistake. If the practice would just have been stopped with no acknowledgement that it was wrong and racist then things may be different. Unfortunately the Church either can't or won't say that we no longer believe people come or came to this earth with dark skin because of choices made in the pre-existence. Because doing so would start that whole dangerous process of questioning other things stated by past prophets. It's different to say past Americans were wrong for slavery than to say LDS prophets believed to speak for God were wrong in their beliefs, practices or comments.

Comments continue below

Pete | 1:47 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Hey Bob in Texas. If you believe something off the Internet, I also have some ocean-front property in Arizona to sell you. You really need to be careful where you get your facts, someday it may come back and haunt you.

Amused | 1:51 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

I just have one comment in response to many observations found herein:

I HATE BIGOTS!

(whoops, is that ironic?)

KB | 1:51 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

The degree of opposition to the gospel of Jesus Christ simply confirms its truthfulness. For those in strong opposition, I challenge you to truly get to know a member who actively lives their lds faith, then evaluate their life, how they treat others, and their level of happiness. You will know "by their fruits" if it is a positive or negative in their lives and the lives of others. You can't dispute results.

To answer the question asked by a few above, the primary reason the general response to O'Donnell's comments has been relatively quiet is because members are confident in their faith and honestly don't care too terribly much what others think of it. Time is better spent on other matters.

To Veronica from Orem | 1:54 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Veronica, Veronica, Veronica. Get over it, girl! You are manifesting some latent hostility that will have people believing you are not tolerant and respectful of others. Don't want to be like them mormons, now, do you? Here's a suggestion, honey--go to the dog pound, buy a dog, name it life, and then you'll have one. In the meantime, keep your doors locked and shades drawn, 'cause there's mormons all around you.

Danny | 1:54 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Joseph Smith believed that all religious sects were wrong and that "all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those professors were all ccorrupt; that: ï¿½they draw near to me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the commandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the power thereof.ï¿½ Does Mitt Romney Believe Joseph Smith spoke the truth when he said this? Mitt Romney has no reason to attack other religions. Joseph Smith (One of Mitt's fathers) already did it for him and I believe without a doubt that Mitt would disagree with the founding prophet of the LDS Church.

BW | 2:02 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

That a Mormon can call anyone a bigot is hilarious. They worship at the alter of bigotry. I love to see them get lathered up and hear their incessant caterwauling when they get their paybacks. Priceless!
Thank God I'm out of that waste of time, money and joke of a tax exemption.

To: JT | 2:04 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Watch the rant on youtube.

I do not think I have ever seen such an un-composed hate-filled out of control emotional outburst in my entire life.

This O'Donnel dude has serious issues and really needs therapy or a straight-jacket.

singing out of tune | 2:18 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

and so this is christmas? stay as close to christ as you can because that is what it is going to take..be slow to anger..forgive 7x70, use to be the lds people use to examplefy this.

Remay! | 2:20 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Persecution always has followed the LDS church and always will. The church always grew fastest when persecution was strongest. Here's hoping O'Donnell and his ilk with keep it up. His rant will open many doors which are now closed to the church.

1890 | 2:36 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

then how come it is still practiced as it is a form of modern day slavery with many victums..and it is a land of freedom slam or no slam ..that's what will get u the double standards doesn't matter if it isn't practiced by church it is the association and enabling of it. utah just shut one segment down while there are plenty of more..my relatives in iowa call to tell of all the anti-mitt propaganda floating around, i like this guy and i would like to see him shake the house up..just like he did o'donnel

Re Mormon Problem | 2:40 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Regarding #3 the Polygamy issue:

Unfortunately for Romney and the Church many evengelicals know more about certain aspects of the polygamy issue than some LDS do. The Church apparently thinks it is enough to just say we haven't pacticed for x number of years end of story. But I am surprised by the widespread understanding outside of the Church that today male members can be ceiled in the temple to multiple wives while female members can only be ceiled to husband. For example, if a male member's wife dies, he can be ceiled to another while remaining ceiled to his first wife. This can be repeated either through death or divorce allowing the male member to accrue several ceiled wives. The female member however cannot do this. She must break the first ceiling in order to be ceiled to another. The Church continues the spiritual practice of polygamy and it has surprised me the number of non-members who know this. We are wrong to think perceptions only come from "Big Love" or break off fundemental practices. The Church's response to this has been to avoid addressing the issue that many actually have - and it is repeated with other issues.

To the "Occam" writer: | 2:43 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

You said that the LDS Church does not claim to be the "true" church, just the "most correct" church. That is not accurate. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints DOES indeed claim to be the "only true church of Jesus Christ". Any non-LDS person is not held responsible for not understanding that fact but any LDS member who is not comfortable with that statement has a very weak and shaky "testimony" (ie, "faith" or confidence) of LDS doctrine. The confusion seems to be around the word "true". "True" means "real" or "reality", the "way things really are". Contrary to what millions think today, "truth" is NOT and has NEVER been decided upon by a vote or popular opinion. It is simply things as they are. The LDS church believes that they are in fact the only church that God Himself would claim as "His" because it is the only church that is organized as His Son's was, teaches doctrine that is ALL "true" and has God's permission to do so and to act in His name (ie, "priesthood"). Do Baptists, etc have some "truth"? Absolutely. Latter-day Saints simply have more and will receive still more when we're ready.

james stowe | 2:46 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

He would have bashed The KING, ELVIS, if he had been LDS. I'm with him.

People show the world that a religion can not run this great country.

To the "Occam" writer (more): | 2:59 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Sadly, many Latter-day Saints, rather than rejoice only in their doctrine and blessings, rejoice pridefully in themselves. I myself was guilty of this sin when I was younger. Born in AZ, raised in UT and then serving an LDS mission in the South, I somehow developed the idea that the "Lord loves everyone but He loves LDS people more". I also developed the false impression that Latter-day Saints had a lock on "goodness". What a farce! I met many non-Mormons in the South who loved the Lord more than I did; non-Mormons who took me in literally off the street and fed me, gave me drink, money, encouraged me and befriended me. What a refreshing eye-opener it was to me to see that LDS people had real friends and allies in our non-LDS brothers and sisters as we fought for Christ and goodness TOGETHER! Ever since then my attitude changed from "we are the only true church" to "we are the only church who has received all of the truth that God offers and we will receive more because we don't yet have it all". Let us focus on "truth" from wherever it comes and love EVERYONE, no matter what.

TYLER | 3:01 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Everyone who was as appalled as I am by this sorry excuse for a man as I was, send an email to letters@msnbc.com and demand he get punished for his lies!

to Just the Facts | 3:02 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

You are still living in the past. Name one church that has never changed. The present day Mormon Church is a Christian, non racist religion today that brings forth much good in the world today. Get over it and stop trying to bring up the past, its time to move on. You can't equate what someone in the past may have said with what all Mormons now believe.

Ryan W | 3:12 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

I don't want to waste my time addressing the main points of this story (some I agree with, some I do not). Rather I would like to say that this columnist is equally biased as the people he was talking about. Yes, blacks could attend LDS meetings, but to say that it's not racist to disallow them from holding any position requiring the priesthood (which is almost all of them) or go through your temples, is crazy. That's like if we were to have a country that gave citizenship to African-Americans but didn't let them vote, own property, run for any office, or hold any civil service position. Can any of you honestly say that that's not racist.

Get real. Seriously, I feel bad for all of people that read this story amd agreed with the author.

Of course, you were always going to agree with him. Befor you read the story, you just agreed.

Anything that sounds good about the church: Good
Anything that sounds bad about the church: bad

I wish my moral reasoning was that simple and devoid of personal effort

Answering O'Donnell | 3:16 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Let's call for McLaughlin to bring somebody from the Church on the air to answer this tirade. Here's the message I wrote to McLaughlin Group:
"I recognize the importance of airing controversial views on your program, and I usually enjoy it. But sometimes your guests go too far. Lawrence O'Donnell's attacks on the religious group I belong to constitute outrageous hate speech. If O'Donnell had shouted those lies in that tone of voice about Mohammed and Muslims or about Martin Luther King and his Dexter Avenue Baptist Church, your program would have been shut down by now. At the least, you owe it to your viewers to air a rebuttal to O'Donnell's slander. There are 6 million Latter-day Saints in this country who try to be good citizens and neighbors. It's manifestly unfair to them to permit this tirade to go unanswered. I challenge you to bring someone on the air who can fairly and accurately respond to O'Donnell's charges."

Aghast | 3:35 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

BW,

Give us all an example of Mormon bigotry. You seem to have some emotional issues about the faith and it's obvious from your rant that you left/were asked to leave the faith, so enlighten us out here in Hicksville.
What do you mean by 'joke of a tax exemption'? How do the Mormons differ from other tax exempt religious sects?

Aghast | 3:45 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

To Singing Out of Tune,

I guess in your book that it's OK for a hatemonger to trash your faith. The responses on this site from LDS members have been benign at best. Most on this post and around the world are slow to anger and forgive endlessly. Merry Christmas to all - especially the ones here lacking any spiritual direction or powers of discernment.

CougarKeith (utahkeith) | 3:55 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Obviously you didn't listen very good. He didn't just say "Blacks couldn't have the Priesthood", he went beyond that and said Mormons wouldn't let "Blacks be members of their church!" He blatently LIED! or told a MIS-TRUTH! If that isn't slandering Mitt Romney and his religion, I don't know what is? I think O'Donnell is Rosey's twin brother! Where does he get off? As a Journalist your supposed to know the facts before "Spouting Off", obviously he didn't know them AT ALL!

Go after the Baptists, O'Donnell | 3:58 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Go after the Baptists, O'Donnell

From Wikipedia:

The Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Baptist group in the world and the largest Protestant denomination in the United States. It is the second largest grouping of Christians in the United States, the Roman Catholic Church being the largest.

"Slavery was the "most critical" issue among Baptists. Baptists in the South believed that the Bible supported the practice of slavery, and they also wanted to preserve the rights of ministers to own slaves.[2]

This position on slavery and racial superiority was not officially denounced until June 20, 1995 when a formal "Declaration of Repentance" was issued by the SBC."

Mike Huckabee, is proud of the fact that he admitted the the first African Americans into is church in 1980. 1978, 1980 -- which can first?

Mormon Cowboy | 3:59 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

To Veronica: I'm glad you're not LDS because you would give us a bad name. You probably had a bad experience at one time or another where some nice Mormon boy dumped you because you are fat and ugly, and you never got over it!!

To Ron: I liked your comment about Porter Rockwell. Where is he when we need him?

Why worry? | 4:02 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

For those people that think the LDS people should just sit back and let people pummel us with insults and lies. One can look back on history to see why we are offended. Lds people were murdered raped and pillaged out of 6 states because of our beliefs. 6 million Jews were killed in Nazi Germany because of one man's diatribe and hatred. We are fighting a war now over another religion's belief that non-believers deserve to die. If you don't see that by letting this hate speech go unchecked, the LDS people could be in the same situation as those 6 million Jews down the road, then you are truly heartless. I never want my children to ever have to suffer the indignities of the past. If you have children put yourself in my shoes. Some of the posts I have read are truly hate filled individuals without a shred of humanity.

? for Occam | 4:03 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Occam,

Just curious, what other religions have you criticized lately? I really do want to know, is it just the LDS faith that you want to discredit?

Secondly, why does it matter to you. You don't believe in it, your not a member-right? Why take it beyond that. If this isn't something you do to every church, why The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Just curious, this goes for anyone else who is trying to discredit Mormons. I don't get it. Give me some feedback.

Where do you draw the line? | 4:05 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Can one say they accept the LDS Church as the true church - that they have a testimony of the restored gospel - and still NOT BELIEVE OR ACCEPT the following?:

1. That Joseph Smith's institution of and Brigham Young's continuation of polygamy was commanded/desired by God.

2. That God did not want/allow worthy men with negro blood to receive the priesthood until 1978.

3. That the Book of Abraham was a translation of actual teachings or writings of Abraham.

4. That God truly does not deem me worthy to enter the temple if I drink coffee or tea.

5. That the Book of Mormon people actually came here from Jeruselem and existed in north or south america as claimed. (Therefore viewing the BofM more as a nice testimony of Jesus but not necessarily an actual record of actual people)

I am honestly asking if there is room to be a member of the Church without believing or accepting those things? Or would one just be as well off attending any old Christian church at that point?

CougarKeith | 4:06 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Send your complaints to letters@msnbc.com about Lawrence O'Donnell and his Mormon Bigotry, maybe he will get the axe like Don Imos or Appologise at least. His actions were totally uncalled for! Enough letters will cause a wave of something! Bashing religion by a journalist who not only bashed but out and out Told Phesicious Lies is uncalled for! If he used the "N" word, or said it against "Jews" or another "Faith" he would have been crucified. He should appologise!

Anonymous | 4:11 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

What a bunch of LDS crybabies. Can't stand to have your weak faith challenged?

In light of Joseph Smiths statement at JS 2:19 that ALL churches are an abomination and corrupt, O'Donnell doesn't seem quite so bigoted.

Also, those other bad churches mentioned, you must keep in mind, never did make the claim that God PERSONALLY visited it's founder and re-established what had been lost, namely: A TRUE Prophet of God on earth, who leads God's TRUE Church (LDS) daily (church led by divine inspiration). So to do things that are wrong just because others do it is reprehensible, especially by LDS who claim divine guidence. What ever happened to "where more is given, more is expected"??

Arizona Lawyer | 4:14 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

To the Crybaby Boobies who are complaining that our church withheld the Priesthood from Black members, I conclude that you believe our Church has the true gospel. Otherwise, you would be thanking us for withholding such nonsense from our Black brothers.

true blue | 4:14 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

To Occam:

Those claims have been made for years, but not everyone who is convicted is guilty. Not all the claims people make against another person are true. The most innocent person in all of human history was tried and found guilty.

Should I join? | 4:16 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

I have a question for all those who are seemingly against Mormons, I really would like your opinions.

I have lived in Utah for just under 2 years. Before I came here I didn't really go to church, I wasn't religious at all. Since living hear I have begun to investigate the LDS faith. I have studied and prayed about what I have learned. Most importantly I have felt so good about life, myself, and everything since going to church. I have decided to get baptized and become a member of the LDS faith. I could not be happier about this decision. Here is my question: how do explain this. How can this happen if the church is so evil?

Aghast | 4:16 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

James Stowe,

What religion is trying to run this country - certainly not the LDS faith. What in blazes is your tiny mind referring to?

Dave | 4:22 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

O'Donnell who? Never heard of him. MSNBC? People watch that channel? The McLaughlin Group is still on TV?

Sounds like he'd make a great running mate for Huckabee.

Anonymous | 4:24 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Mormons have been distancing themselves from mainstream Christianity from day one.
Now that people outside the Zion Curtain are asking questions and commenting - what's the problem?

You reap what you sow.

Whats your point | 4:27 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Occam,

What is your point? I just don't get it. You seem to have a number of seemingly decent ideas about why I should not believe Joseph Smith. Yet there is never a direct message. Am I suppose to leave the LDS faith, forsake it, ignore what I have discovered?

What alternative would you suggest-really?

If you think we are mistaken, in err what religion do you offer us that is beyond your reproach?

I would love to hear about your sacred religious feelings, beliefs-what are they?

Aghast | 4:29 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Ryan,

Some very 'deep thoughts' if not intellectually lazy.

Barry W. | 4:33 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Imus was put through the ringer for his comments, but this fool can make idiotic statements with no substantiation and nothing happens to him? MSNBC has a responsibility to ensure the comments made are objective and fact based. The Dixie Chicks exercised their freedom of speech and many of us exercised our right to stop buying their music. I will exercise my right to not watch MSNBC or any of their affiliates in the future. Let's see what happens to the advertising dollars if we all band together and stop watching their programming.

To -to Just the facts | 4:35 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Your right - "the present day Mormon Church is a Christian, non racist religion today that brings forth much good fruit in the world today".

I completely agree with that comment. My problem is that I am struggling through whether I believe the LDS Church contains the fullness of the Gospel. And that fullness contains the first half of it's existence as well as the very different second half. I am unable, as some members are, to just say I believe in Christ and am a good neighbor and could care less what was said or done in the early, equally true, Church. Sometimes I wish I could actually but I have to come to an acceptance (or not) of the early years too.

You're right | 4:42 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Ryan W,

Your right ryan, my moral reasoning must be devoid of personal effort. After all I am LDS. And, I guess I am racist as well, you would know ryan.

I guess I'll disavow everything now, you just enlightened me, nice work!

RE: Veronica from Orem | 4:46 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Okay, so you don't like Mormons, but "rotten teeth?" I mean, do you really have any evidence that Mormon's teeth are worse than anyone else's? It's one thing to disagree with someone's religion, but attacking their oral hygiene?

Unmoved | 4:53 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Just let him make a fool of himself all he wants. We are know who we are and what we are about.

Re:The Mormon Problem for Romney | 5:02 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

#2 is being addressed.

PBS asked Elder Jensen: There is lingering folklore of the ban, and many active, faithful Mormons think more should be said about it. Could you talk about that?

"Yeah. I was aware of the feelings on the part of many, many good black members of the church, and many white members of the church, that there's this body of writing and recorded speaking that was all well-intentioned. It had its purpose, trying to offer some rationale for why that ban existed, and then once the ban was lifted, that sort of remained in some form in various publications and so on.

The essential idea is that somehow in the life before this life, through some conduct on the part of black people, they were less worthy and had to spend some probationary time waiting then for the priesthood to be given to them. I think it's that idea that somehow they came here with some inherent disability, spiritually speaking, and that bothers them. It would bother me, too. And I don't think it's true. I think those were theories that were advanced, but I don't think there's any scriptural or doctrinal justification for them."

gary | 5:16 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Relax, Mr. Pierce. Most of what O'Donnell said was either spot-on or close to the truth. Historically, the Mormon church has advocated polygamy, actively discriminated against descendants of Africans, and campaigned against equal rights for gays. Of these three, it got 'revelations' reversing its positions on polygamy and racial discrimination only after many years of social pressure. It still actively campaigns against states granting rights associated with marriage to gay couples. Pointing these facts out, even if with slight misstatement, is simple truth, not bigotry. Mormonism's record for intolerance is something that warrants exposure.

Robo | 6:05 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

Source: "David O. McKay and the Rise of Modern Mormonism," Chapter 4. People need to remember that the church is composed of imperfect people who are products of their time and God has to use them to move forward the work. It is not always a matter of God wanting or not wanting something (such as blacks and the priesthood) but of the people being ready to receive it (such as stopping the practice of circumcision or taking the gospel to the Gentiles). Modern revelation is needed because what is appropriate for one generation (such as the Law of Moses) is not for others (such as the Gospel of Jesus Christ). The Bible is full of instances where God changes the policies or programs based on what the people need, what they can recieve, and even the geopolitical conditions. That is nothing new. Polygamy (Moses, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, David, etc), restricting priesthood by lineage (Levites only), and changing policies and programs such as above, are not without Biblical precedent. It all comes down to whether you believe in a living prophet or not. If not, none of it matters. If so, what the current prophet says is most important.

MINNIE | 6:39 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

MANY THANKS - to those who gave information about where to write our objections to this kind of rabid journalism.

Beck vs. O'Donnell??? | 7:50 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

This is just another example of the intellectual thinking gripping the Democratic Party. They pretend to be liberal and "open minded" and this is what we got. Someone needs to tell this guy that "Big Love" isn't real and get him into the real world. Think about all the LDS athletes that have played pro sports, they are among the best examples for any young person of any demoniation. This alone tells you the ilk that makes up those in the Mormon faith. Bad apples do exist and have frustrated me at times. This guy is as bigoted as he claims many in the Republican Party to be. It would be intellectually dishonest for McLaughlin (as the lead talking head of this show which I have generally enjoyed over the years) to come back on a later show and "set the record straight" and apologize. Yes, we do have free speech but it does have limits. And if things are said that are blatantly false, or what we may call slanderous, it is up to those with the power to correct the record. If that doesn't work invite Glenn Beck on to take him on--my money is on Beck!

Houston matron | 8:16 p.m. Dec. 14, 2007

The inflamitory comments and wild behavior by Mr.O'Donnell would be laughable if he had not been so serious in his diatribe. He endicted an entire religion of people who generally are tax paying, military serving, family loving, decent, patriotic, contributing citizens with a broad endictment of hatred, that is frightening. This kind of speech and behavior, unfortunately has become very common in the recent past. Why the public has allowed certain groups (Jews, blacks, muslims, gays, mormons to name a few) to endure this kind of treatment is a question that can be left to psychologists and sociologists and perhaps historians. It is up to us as decent citizens to recognize this behavior as hate-speech that can now, and in the past has, led to horrible and dark events that are well documented in history. We need to recognize the behavior for what it is; bigoted, hateful, and dangerous, and do what we can to stop it. That can include letters to the advertisers, the network, and Mr. O'Donnell.
A discussion of ideas in a sane environment is what we should expect from PBS, not the mean-spirited stuff exhibited on this program by Mr. O'Donnell.

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