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Theology: LDS god is in harmony with the Bible
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Hokey | 5:18 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
continued from last post;
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim].
No God beside Jesus.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version)
5I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Jesus none else, no God beside Jesus.
Psalm 100:3 (King James Version)
3Know ye that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Again Jesus is God. Jehovah is Elohim.
And didn�t Thomas say to Jesus �My Lord (Jehovah) and my God (Elohim).� John 20:28
Isaiah 44:6 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD [Jehovah] the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD [Jehovah] of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God [Elohim].
No God beside Jesus.
Isaiah 45:5 (King James Version)
5I am the LORD [Jehovah], and there is none else, there is no God [Elohim] beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:
Jesus none else, no God beside Jesus.
Psalm 100:3 (King James Version)
3Know ye that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.
Again Jesus is God. Jehovah is Elohim.
And didn�t Thomas say to Jesus �My Lord (Jehovah) and my God (Elohim).� John 20:28
Anonymous | 5:26 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Hard to believe that there are STILL people who believe God indiscriminately
destroyed mothers, babies, puppies, kittens, EVERY living thing in "The
Great Flood" - because HE loves them.
This is truly crazy stuff.
This is truly crazy stuff.
Comments continue below
Paul N. Hopkins | 6:34 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Nice job Orson. We were in Brazil on missions about the same time. I heard
alot about you but we've never met. My brother Richard wrote the book you
mention. He's since had a severe stroke and can't even communicate
anymore - very sad. Very nice job!
Brother Allen | 7:45 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
It's funny... I've had discussions with people that went pretty much
parallel (no pun intended, I swear!) with the "parallel lines"
argument. It ended essentially as described, too: they'd insist that
I'm somehow un-Christian and forever doomed to hell, while I wander off to
a quiet place to try and make any sort of sense of what they just said. Your
words speak to me, Brother Card.
Just Thinking | 8:09 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Peter Martin,
I tend to recall that President Hinckley is the prophet today, not Joseph Smith. If he states that he doesn't know a lot about the subject, then I would believe him - I'm also quite sure he is familiar with the doctrine. I think the key word here is know. Much of what we "know" are things that we simply have faith about - our understanding of God and doctrines have changed as we have learned more, but it still doesn't mean that we know. Religious belief should be based on faith given our limited understanding of what really is. Religious belief based on knowledge doesn't have the staying power against convincing evidence. Religious belief based on faith can withstand convincing evidence because within the concept of faith there exists the idea that you are humble enough to accept new understanding. Unfortunately, the argument on this thread tends to be about knowledge and an unwillingness to accept the thoughts and opinions of others.
Brother Wood | 8:21 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
Brother Card, thank you for your comments. It's good to know that there are
members of this church who will stand for what we believe to be true. Thank you.
Sashabill | 11:56 p.m. Dec. 10, 2007
FWIW, I found the LDS teachings on the potential of human deification to be a
welcome change --and certainly a welcome relief -- from all the constant
degrading, belittling, and trashing of the individual, which I had previously
run into among right- wing Protestants. This is one reason why I am a Mormon
and am proud to say so.
-Sasha bill
-Sasha bill
Peter Martin | 4:53 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Knowledge is what Joseph Smith, got from God. The thoughts and opinions of
others is just that. Most of them are uninformed, What I am concerned about
with my eternal life I will trust what God says in the scriptures and through
his prophets then what some ones opinion is. Sorry you do not agree but that is
your right. Joseph Smith still has the keys today D&C 112: 15 Exalt not
yourselves; arebel not against my servant Joseph; for verily I say unto you, I
am with him, and my hand shall be over him; and the bkeys which I have given
unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I come.
Just because you do not know does not mean that others do not know. I am 70 years old. I have spent a life serving God and my fellow men
Just because you do not know does not mean that others do not know. I am 70 years old. I have spent a life serving God and my fellow men
Peter Martin | 4:55 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I have had many examples in my life of spiritual experiences that could only
come from God. If some one�s scriptural study is what he
learns in Sunday school he is falling way short of what he can learn. I have
read the scriptures Bible, BofM, D&C, and PofGP, cover to cover for the last
20 years. I am not saying that to boast but to inform as to what is possible.
And what we get from the Lord. All that I have is from the Lord. All of what I
am is because of God. I know that with my lovely wife and the atonement of Jesus
Christ we can make it to the highest degree of the Celestial Kingdom. And be
there with our 9 children (who have all been to the temple and are active). I am
sorry if this sounds boastful, but I am tired of hearing wishy-washy Mormons,
trying to get along with the world, and get them to like us. Get a clue the
world will not like us.
Spreading the truth | 6:25 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Dear Orson,
Anyone who examines the Book of Mormon in light of history, archeology, subject and context, and DNA evidence of Native Americans will quickly develop serious doubts as to its veracity and the credibility of Joseph Smith himself.
Take one example - why have there been so many re-writes of the Book of Mormon when the source material (golden plates) have vanihsed? Every time evidence is uncovered casting doubts on the book, they re-write the book. Convenient is not the same as credible.
Take a serious look at LDS teachings and you too will see that Mormonism, like Islam, Hinuism, and others is not Christian.
As for Sunday school, be careful. Jesus said "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea."
Anyone who examines the Book of Mormon in light of history, archeology, subject and context, and DNA evidence of Native Americans will quickly develop serious doubts as to its veracity and the credibility of Joseph Smith himself.
Take one example - why have there been so many re-writes of the Book of Mormon when the source material (golden plates) have vanihsed? Every time evidence is uncovered casting doubts on the book, they re-write the book. Convenient is not the same as credible.
Take a serious look at LDS teachings and you too will see that Mormonism, like Islam, Hinuism, and others is not Christian.
As for Sunday school, be careful. Jesus said "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea."
The whole truth | 6:40 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
DNA evidence has conclusively proven that the accounts of the history of the
Native Americans, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, is false. The Mormon
church is now re-writing the Book of Mormon (again) to deal with this
discovery.
I understand people passionately clinging to their beliefs because it is in our nature to resist change, but folks - look at the facts. Examine the history, the archeology and the context of the Book of Mormon. You will see that it doesn't add up.
Most of all - compare the teachings of the Bible with LDS doctrine - and you will come to one conclusion. Mormonism is no more "Christian" than Islam. In fact, Mormonism is closer to Islam than it is to Christianity.
The truth is what it is. Those who seek the truth will find it.
I understand people passionately clinging to their beliefs because it is in our nature to resist change, but folks - look at the facts. Examine the history, the archeology and the context of the Book of Mormon. You will see that it doesn't add up.
Most of all - compare the teachings of the Bible with LDS doctrine - and you will come to one conclusion. Mormonism is no more "Christian" than Islam. In fact, Mormonism is closer to Islam than it is to Christianity.
The truth is what it is. Those who seek the truth will find it.
David Overly | 8:14 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
It is interesting that when Mitt's father, George Romney, ran (and won 4
times)
for Governor of Michigan and later ran for the Republican Nomination in 1968,
for President, that his Mormon faith did not enter into the campaigns at all
Why now is it (the Mormon faith) becoming an issue? What are the evangelicals
afraid of?
for Governor of Michigan and later ran for the Republican Nomination in 1968,
for President, that his Mormon faith did not enter into the campaigns at all
Why now is it (the Mormon faith) becoming an issue? What are the evangelicals
afraid of?
Anonymous | 8:36 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
One thing that I would like to put out there... I've noticed there are alot
of 'anti' LDS commentators that have posted their comments about how
"I don't care about religion", or "the Mormon church is
contradictive, and they ostracize others.." and even the commical
"Mormons should keep their secrets in the closet." You know, it's
interesting, that for you that can't stand the LDS church, or members of
the church, you sure are investing alot of your time mingling with us! Which is
good, you're always invited, but realize that for us...once you've
built on the sure rock of the Redeemer, you cannot fall.
Armando | 9:08 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Deseret News needs to add a "Digg This" link. Great piece!!!
Deborah R. of Layton | 9:21 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Excellent! I believe Mr. Card's comments to be pithy, succinct, and
enlightening. I am grateful for people like Mr. Card, who are intellectually and
spiritually prepared to step up and stand steadfast in the fray of controversy.
I am grateful for his lifelong efforts to develop his writing abilities to
articulate so well his thoughts, understandings, and feelings regarding
truth.
Thank you,Mr. Card, for taking the time to share your views with the public. I have forwarded this to many friends and family.
Thank you,Mr. Card, for taking the time to share your views with the public. I have forwarded this to many friends and family.
Hey "Anonymous" | 9:23 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
For your information, I spend some time with newspaper writings (not with LDS
people). I'm not against you, (or with you) and I don't personally
care what you believe. I do, however, care when your church pushes it's
agenda on other people and makes arrogant claims. One of these claims is that
that your "truth" is the "best truth".
Get over yourself and realize that it's not "true" for me, not for lots of people in the world and never will be!
And also realize that when you "hang out" on a newspaper website, you are in a public place where there are lots of individuals (religious and non religous) that will make comments.
Get over yourself and realize that it's not "true" for me, not for lots of people in the world and never will be!
And also realize that when you "hang out" on a newspaper website, you are in a public place where there are lots of individuals (religious and non religous) that will make comments.
don brown | 9:36 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
One thing you will not hear is a Christian bearing their testimony about Christ
being their Elder Brother. This is one thing that I cannot simply cannot
understand. How so many people can so lightly to bring Christ down to their
level. The scriptures and teachings of the Church are clear that Christ is our
creator, the creator of our earth and is our God and Savior and is the God of
the Old Testament.
Anonymous | 9:39 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
The whole truth | 6:40 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
DNA evidence has conclusively proven that the accounts of the history of the Native Americans, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, is false."
That is bunk...What they have shown is that a marker is shown to be in European Jews doesn't show up in American Indians.
The BOM never said the American Indian was Jewish!
What they don't have is samples from the other Israelite tribes...Since they have no way of identifying the other tribes....Specifically Mannaseh samples to show that tribe never made it to the Americas...So what have they PROVEN?
They have shown that the American Indian is related to peoples in Siberia...However they can't prove that there weren't other nations on the other side of the pond that mixed their DNA into the DNA of the American Indian, because you need samples of every nation and group...Even groups that have died out to prove it.
The DNA could just as easily moved the other direction...From the Americas to Siberia...The scientists are just too sure of the Siberian Land bridge theory to accept any other theory that would contradict their "pet doctrine" of pre-colombian American colonization.
DNA evidence has conclusively proven that the accounts of the history of the Native Americans, as recorded in the Book of Mormon, is false."
That is bunk...What they have shown is that a marker is shown to be in European Jews doesn't show up in American Indians.
The BOM never said the American Indian was Jewish!
What they don't have is samples from the other Israelite tribes...Since they have no way of identifying the other tribes....Specifically Mannaseh samples to show that tribe never made it to the Americas...So what have they PROVEN?
They have shown that the American Indian is related to peoples in Siberia...However they can't prove that there weren't other nations on the other side of the pond that mixed their DNA into the DNA of the American Indian, because you need samples of every nation and group...Even groups that have died out to prove it.
The DNA could just as easily moved the other direction...From the Americas to Siberia...The scientists are just too sure of the Siberian Land bridge theory to accept any other theory that would contradict their "pet doctrine" of pre-colombian American colonization.
To Spreading the Truth | 9:45 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Since you're quoting the bible, I assume you believe in its veracity. And
since you quote DNA evidence, I assume you think this is damning. But I wonder,
what similar, scientific tests do you put to the bible? Do you believe it just
because the names match up (i.e. that Bethlehem is on the map)? Or have you
applied your scientific tests and found the bible true? For example, do you
know that geologists have found no evidence of a world-wide flood? In fact, do
you realize that scientists have actually disproved this? So then, by your
reasoning, the bible is false, no? And therefore useless, no?
Hey "Anonymous" | 9:53 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Now we're getting into issues of philosophy and moral relativism.
Religions believe that truth is truth, absolute and unwavering.
"Truth" for you should be "truth" for me if it is, in fact,
truth. Godly truth. We're not talking about ethics, or defintions or
lifestyles (i.e. nude art is okay for me because I'm an artist; it's
not okay for you because you're a child, etc.) No, we're talking
about basic religious doctrines: does God exist? If he does, he does, whether
you see it as "truth for you" or "truth for someone else."
If God does exist, what is his nature? Does he have a body or not? Again, if
he does, he does. Is the Book of Mormon inspired? If it is, it is. Should you
believe it? If you think we should be inspired, then yes. Mormons aren't
saying they're better. They're saying you have some good stuff; they
have the rest. And they ask you to find out if such a claim is "true"
from God himself, because, again, if it's truth, it's truth. If God
wants you to believe in Mormonism, he'll tell you.
Anonymous | 10:09 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Spreading the truth | 6:25 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007 "
Most of all - compare the teachings of the Bible with LDS doctrine - and you will come to one conclusion. Mormonism is no more "Christian" than Islam. In fact, Mormonism is closer to Islam than it is to Christianity."
Islam is part of the Abrahamic religion heritage.
Suprise they share some of the same beliefs!
Even the Muslims believe the Jesus was a prophet...They just don't believe he was the divine
Son of God...However the LDS believe in the Godhead...If any of the religions are closer to Islamic thought that would have to be Orthodox Christianity because they cling to the only "one" God idea, but instead of Allah...They cling onto the Triune God being the one true God.
Even Muslims have some truth in their beliefs...Mohammed was exposed to Jewish and Christian thought because of his homeland's proximity to Israel...So if we have some beliefs that are similar...Because we are Christian(We believe that Jesus was the SON OF GOD!)and they are Islamic....Christianity is an Abrahamic religion...It should share some beliefs...Suprised?
Some have to look for anything to soothe their concsiences as to why they don't believe the LDS!
Most of all - compare the teachings of the Bible with LDS doctrine - and you will come to one conclusion. Mormonism is no more "Christian" than Islam. In fact, Mormonism is closer to Islam than it is to Christianity."
Islam is part of the Abrahamic religion heritage.
Suprise they share some of the same beliefs!
Even the Muslims believe the Jesus was a prophet...They just don't believe he was the divine
Son of God...However the LDS believe in the Godhead...If any of the religions are closer to Islamic thought that would have to be Orthodox Christianity because they cling to the only "one" God idea, but instead of Allah...They cling onto the Triune God being the one true God.
Even Muslims have some truth in their beliefs...Mohammed was exposed to Jewish and Christian thought because of his homeland's proximity to Israel...So if we have some beliefs that are similar...Because we are Christian(We believe that Jesus was the SON OF GOD!)and they are Islamic....Christianity is an Abrahamic religion...It should share some beliefs...Suprised?
Some have to look for anything to soothe their concsiences as to why they don't believe the LDS!
Anonymous | 10:40 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Hey "Anonymous" | 9:23 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"For your information, I spend some time with newspaper writings (not with LDS people). I'm not against you, (or with you) and I don't personally care what you believe. I do, however, care when your church pushes it's agenda on other people and makes arrogant claims. One of these claims is that that your "truth" is the "best truth".
Get over yourself and realize that it's not "true" for me, not for lots of people in the world and never will be!"
If you don't carewhat we believe....Why do you care that we believe that we are the restoration of Jesus Christ's church?
The Catholic church believes that they are the only true church because they think they are the church Jesus established on the earth and it wasn't taken from the earth!
The Evangelicals believe they are true "BodyOfChrist/Church". They don't believe one denomination is true church. Litmus Test-Christ/Faith/NotWorks/Bible believing church they're OK. Because we believe in the BOM...To them we are non-christian cult...Thus not part of their "True Church"...What about non-Christian religions...What do the Evangelicals say about them?
Arrogance? No just Biblical? NOT THE TRUE CHURCH? WHY BELIEVE IT?
"For your information, I spend some time with newspaper writings (not with LDS people). I'm not against you, (or with you) and I don't personally care what you believe. I do, however, care when your church pushes it's agenda on other people and makes arrogant claims. One of these claims is that that your "truth" is the "best truth".
Get over yourself and realize that it's not "true" for me, not for lots of people in the world and never will be!"
If you don't carewhat we believe....Why do you care that we believe that we are the restoration of Jesus Christ's church?
The Catholic church believes that they are the only true church because they think they are the church Jesus established on the earth and it wasn't taken from the earth!
The Evangelicals believe they are true "BodyOfChrist/Church". They don't believe one denomination is true church. Litmus Test-Christ/Faith/NotWorks/Bible believing church they're OK. Because we believe in the BOM...To them we are non-christian cult...Thus not part of their "True Church"...What about non-Christian religions...What do the Evangelicals say about them?
Arrogance? No just Biblical? NOT THE TRUE CHURCH? WHY BELIEVE IT?
I've been there.... | 10:40 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
In your religion (LDS). I know as much as the average person in that religion
(maybe more). I am not interested in it. I don't know all the nature of
"God" and don't claim I do. I don't know if I ever will,
but I do know that I have feelings of love in my heart. I believe this is
"God" along with nature, beauty, and the whole universe. I don't
like or need complicated information and I don't like arguments about what
"God" is or isn't.
My reality of "God" is every bit as valid as yours.
Goodbye, and God Bless
Also have a Merry Yultide (Christmas)
My reality of "God" is every bit as valid as yours.
Goodbye, and God Bless
Also have a Merry Yultide (Christmas)
take it easy! | 11:02 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
your just hastening the day to head back to the show me state when there are so
many issues out there which remain unresolved. this is turning into a dead
horse..shoot it..then let's all try to do what ballard said and have the
best spirit of christmas ever as this leaves me depressed...i wonder if anyone
really cares anymore about him, this is kinda like figthing over santa
clause,who's dressed in red for only one reason!
Jon Shurtleff | 11:05 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
The thing I find amazing is that in this entire thread there has been no mention
of the one central defining 'truth' of Mormonism and that is that if
Joseph Smith really saw in the First Vision what he claimed to see then the case
is closed. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints was, therefore,
founded by Christ through Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and
Covenants and Pearl of Great Price are authentic. This trumps any other
argument made in this thread. And the Book of Mormon has it's own internal
formula for ascertaining whether Joseph Smith was telling the truth. Read the
book. Go to the source. Apply the promise stated in Moroni Chapter 4, as
millions of people have. If you really believe in God as a personal being who
answers prayers then there's nothing simpler. Some Mormon's get
distracted into trying to support the faith in all kinds of other ways but it
all ultimately comes back to this. All this other talk is irrelevant.
They don't believe... | 11:09 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
don brown | 9:36 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"One thing you will not hear is a Christian bearing their testimony about Christ being their Elder Brother. This is one thing that I cannot simply cannot understand. How so many people can so lightly to bring Christ down to their level. The scriptures and teachings of the Church are clear that Christ is our creator, the creator of our earth and is our God and Savior and is the God of the Old Testament."
As LDS I don't ever remember bearing that as part of my own testimony...
Christ as Saviour, Creator, etc.? Yes...He was the Creator and more!
However we also believe in the universal spiritual brotherhood of man because we believe in the Fatherhood of God... Who taught this? Jesus when he prayed and taught, the Apostles in their epistles, etc.
In our relaionship to God what does the Bible teach? God and Christ as Creators and Heavenly Father=Our Father which art in heaven?
Have you ever seen/said a prayer prayer in Bible that began with these words?
Are those just words? Truth?
It's ironiic which words in Bible religions take as literal(ONE/GOD)One's they don't(God/Fatherhood)!
"One thing you will not hear is a Christian bearing their testimony about Christ being their Elder Brother. This is one thing that I cannot simply cannot understand. How so many people can so lightly to bring Christ down to their level. The scriptures and teachings of the Church are clear that Christ is our creator, the creator of our earth and is our God and Savior and is the God of the Old Testament."
As LDS I don't ever remember bearing that as part of my own testimony...
Christ as Saviour, Creator, etc.? Yes...He was the Creator and more!
However we also believe in the universal spiritual brotherhood of man because we believe in the Fatherhood of God... Who taught this? Jesus when he prayed and taught, the Apostles in their epistles, etc.
In our relaionship to God what does the Bible teach? God and Christ as Creators and Heavenly Father=Our Father which art in heaven?
Have you ever seen/said a prayer prayer in Bible that began with these words?
Are those just words? Truth?
It's ironiic which words in Bible religions take as literal(ONE/GOD)One's they don't(God/Fatherhood)!
Souped up | 11:32 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Isn't it funny how everyone gets so hot and bothered the moment that
Mormons say something that could be in any way interpreted as
'offensive', or as 'pushing their agenda on others'? Give me
a break. I don't care if you believe what I believe or not. But perhaps you
could grow up and use respect for others. This isn't a grade school recess
and calling names and making accusations doesn't work here. If you
don't like the article, don't read it. If you don't like what is
said in this thread, don't read it. I'm sure there is something better
you could be doing with your time, and guess what, I'm not going to follow
you and criticize you for what you decide to do with your time.
More truth | 11:50 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007
When Jesus ccame to earth as God, he did so with many witnesses. Both roman and
Jewish historians have written of Him.
His death and resurrection were witnessed by many - hundreds. It is documented by those present and those who investiagted it. Even atheist historians today acknowledge that many people (not just one) believe to have seen the risen Christ.
No so with Joseph Smith. Joseph was a man with a very shady past who claims he alone had a vision and he alone received and translated the tablets. None of this can be verified - we have to take the word of one person. All the "evidence" (the tablets) is gone. Does this really match with other ways God expressed himself in the Bible? No.
The evidence - scientific and spiritual - is clear. Mormons are well-intended, but misinformed; faithful, but to the wrong God. This is why so many educated Mormons have left the church.
His death and resurrection were witnessed by many - hundreds. It is documented by those present and those who investiagted it. Even atheist historians today acknowledge that many people (not just one) believe to have seen the risen Christ.
No so with Joseph Smith. Joseph was a man with a very shady past who claims he alone had a vision and he alone received and translated the tablets. None of this can be verified - we have to take the word of one person. All the "evidence" (the tablets) is gone. Does this really match with other ways God expressed himself in the Bible? No.
The evidence - scientific and spiritual - is clear. Mormons are well-intended, but misinformed; faithful, but to the wrong God. This is why so many educated Mormons have left the church.
Creeds doubletalk | 12:01 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Creeds saying Father and Son are one in substance...According to Orthodox thought God is a unchanging and eternally spirit that fills the universe...Christ was born,crucified in the flesh, and ressurected with a body of flesh and bones ocupying a fixed amount of space! This creedal doctrine of oneness thus denies the birth, death, and ressurection of Christ!
2 John 7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess NOT that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Again the creeds deny the Father AND the Son by their being one God.
1 John 22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [but] he that aacknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
In fact Christ couldn't be the Saviour and hung on the cross in the flesh...been left alone on the cross in the flesh by the Father if they were 'one in substance'. Read Father taking the Bitter Cup from the Saviour, etc, etc, etc, into infinitum!
Biblical Truths | 12:32 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
The article is titled: Theology: LDS god is in harmony with the Bible.
LDS doctrines take the God of the Bible, add some attributes and subtract some attributes, and call the result "God". The fundamental question therefore is: Is this new, Mormon God still the God of the Bible, or is He something different?
After studying the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants, I believe Mormons worship a God different from the God of the Bible. Numerous theologians agree, though clearly many of the LDS faithful see things differently.
Mormons have for years tried to position themselves as "Christians" too, but this assertion is consistently rejected by Christians because the two camps define "Christian" markedly differently.
A boat, a car, and an airplane are not the same thing despite the fact that they are all "transportation". They differ in form, function, and result. They cannot all get to the same destinations equally.
Likewise Mormonism and Christianity do not lead to the same place, because the heart of the matter is that they follow different Gods. Mr Card's assertion to the contrary is therefore incorrect.
LDS doctrines take the God of the Bible, add some attributes and subtract some attributes, and call the result "God". The fundamental question therefore is: Is this new, Mormon God still the God of the Bible, or is He something different?
After studying the Bible, Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, and Doctrines and Covenants, I believe Mormons worship a God different from the God of the Bible. Numerous theologians agree, though clearly many of the LDS faithful see things differently.
Mormons have for years tried to position themselves as "Christians" too, but this assertion is consistently rejected by Christians because the two camps define "Christian" markedly differently.
A boat, a car, and an airplane are not the same thing despite the fact that they are all "transportation". They differ in form, function, and result. They cannot all get to the same destinations equally.
Likewise Mormonism and Christianity do not lead to the same place, because the heart of the matter is that they follow different Gods. Mr Card's assertion to the contrary is therefore incorrect.
Steve | 12:46 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Orson Card is wrong. Growing up LDS, all my life I was taught in both church
and seminary that not only can we become "like" God, but that we can
become "A" God... a God over our own universe (my
belief/understanding is anyone who becomes a God, and that includes ours that we
currently worship, gets to create their own new universe in space). I mean what
do you think "become like God" means? It means not only like unto Him
in character, but also becoming what He is... a God.
Ditto? | 12:49 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Spreading the truth | 6:25 a.m. Dec. 11, 2007 "As for Sunday school, be
careful. Jesus said "But if anyone causes one of these little ones who
believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a huge millstone hung
around his neck and to be drowned in the open sea."
We are careful to teach them in Primary and Sunday School...That's why we teach them to obey the commandments and to have faith and believe in the true nature Jesus and Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost...And all that's promised in the Gospel through the atonement.
Do you carefully teach children to not sin or just accept Jesus in a prayer as their Saviour and faith only saves them not gospel principles like faith in God, obedience to commendments and necessary ordinances ie; baptism, etc. are necessary?
QUIETLY attend one of our Primary meetings...We teach them very well to avoid sin, etc.
We are careful to teach them in Primary and Sunday School...That's why we teach them to obey the commandments and to have faith and believe in the true nature Jesus and Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost...And all that's promised in the Gospel through the atonement.
Do you carefully teach children to not sin or just accept Jesus in a prayer as their Saviour and faith only saves them not gospel principles like faith in God, obedience to commendments and necessary ordinances ie; baptism, etc. are necessary?
QUIETLY attend one of our Primary meetings...We teach them very well to avoid sin, etc.
New Testament | 12:50 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes
to the Father but through Me."
If each religion worships their own Jesus, then it's pretty clear that someone is wrong. Jesus didn't say "I am a way..." or "Someone a lot like me is the way.."
Different Jesus = different results.
The Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are not the same. Read the source materials and decide.
If each religion worships their own Jesus, then it's pretty clear that someone is wrong. Jesus didn't say "I am a way..." or "Someone a lot like me is the way.."
Different Jesus = different results.
The Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are not the same. Read the source materials and decide.
Thomas | 1:06 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Can Mormons and other Christians agree on the following:
The three members of the Godhead/Trinity (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) each has, in some sense, an individual existence.
(Mormons, that's what you believe when you reference the First Vision, which had the Father and the Son appearing as two distinct "personages." Other Christians, that's what you believe when you accept the Athanasian Creed's warning against "confusing the persons" of the Trinity; i.e., the Son is not the Father.)
The three members of the Godhead/Trinity also have, in some sense, a unified existence.
(Mormons, that's what you believe when you accept D&C 20's statement "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God." Other Christians, that's what you believe when you accept the Athanasian Creed's warning against "dividing the substance" of God.)
There should be no argument between Mormons and other Christians that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have both an individual existence and a unified existence. The only argument is precisely *how* these divine Persons are individual, and how they are also united as one God.
Anyone who gets worked up over any of this has way too much time on his hands.
The three members of the Godhead/Trinity (the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost) each has, in some sense, an individual existence.
(Mormons, that's what you believe when you reference the First Vision, which had the Father and the Son appearing as two distinct "personages." Other Christians, that's what you believe when you accept the Athanasian Creed's warning against "confusing the persons" of the Trinity; i.e., the Son is not the Father.)
The three members of the Godhead/Trinity also have, in some sense, a unified existence.
(Mormons, that's what you believe when you accept D&C 20's statement "Which Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are one God." Other Christians, that's what you believe when you accept the Athanasian Creed's warning against "dividing the substance" of God.)
There should be no argument between Mormons and other Christians that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost have both an individual existence and a unified existence. The only argument is precisely *how* these divine Persons are individual, and how they are also united as one God.
Anyone who gets worked up over any of this has way too much time on his hands.
Anonymous | 1:08 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
As soon as a person transcends man-made guilt and fear, that person will
experience limitless freedom.
talk about take away | 1:12 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Biblical Truths | 12:32 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"LDS doctrines take the God of the Bible, add some attributes and subtract some attributes, and call the result "God"."
TC subtract at least two attributes...Two other identities...You blend 3 separate personalities into 1 and call that God!
"The fundamental question therefore is: Is this new, Mormon God still the God of the Bible, or is He something different?"
I am suprised that you would call your god a "HE"...
Since according to your doctrine Jesus is also GOD, and the HG. Fathered(?) by the HG...In truth your creedal based God is eternally a spirit w/o body parts. Couldn't have hung on the cross because remember Jesus is God and is the same substance(A spirit because he is God who is eternally a spirit) as God.
"A boat, a car, and an airplane are not the same thing despite the fact that they are all "transportation". They differ in form, function, and result. They cannot all get to the same destinations equally."
Then we're the airplane/starship and you're the car?
We're headed, if we remain worthy, to the Celestial kingdom...Ironically your doctrine of your heavenly destination sounds more like the terrestial?
"LDS doctrines take the God of the Bible, add some attributes and subtract some attributes, and call the result "God"."
TC subtract at least two attributes...Two other identities...You blend 3 separate personalities into 1 and call that God!
"The fundamental question therefore is: Is this new, Mormon God still the God of the Bible, or is He something different?"
I am suprised that you would call your god a "HE"...
Since according to your doctrine Jesus is also GOD, and the HG. Fathered(?) by the HG...In truth your creedal based God is eternally a spirit w/o body parts. Couldn't have hung on the cross because remember Jesus is God and is the same substance(A spirit because he is God who is eternally a spirit) as God.
"A boat, a car, and an airplane are not the same thing despite the fact that they are all "transportation". They differ in form, function, and result. They cannot all get to the same destinations equally."
Then we're the airplane/starship and you're the car?
We're headed, if we remain worthy, to the Celestial kingdom...Ironically your doctrine of your heavenly destination sounds more like the terrestial?
Anonymous | 1:19 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I can't praise a deity who sends people to eternal misery just because they
didn't know what was right, or because they were too young to know what
they were supposed to believe and do.
Wrong to Biblical Truths | 1:41 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Mormons don't worship the God created and defined by the Nicene creed. That
God is "incompehensible". Mormons believe in a God that is not only
comprehensible but visible! For a good biblical study on the visibility of God,
read Luke 24 and 1 Corinthians 15.
The Trinatrian belief is a non-biblical belief. It isn't defined anywhere. In fact it wasn't even a christian belief until three to four hundred years after Christ! I'll just sit back and waith for your "God is a Spirit" quote and then I'll teach you the meaning of that passage so that it doesn't contradict the passages above.
The Trinatrian belief is a non-biblical belief. It isn't defined anywhere. In fact it wasn't even a christian belief until three to four hundred years after Christ! I'll just sit back and waith for your "God is a Spirit" quote and then I'll teach you the meaning of that passage so that it doesn't contradict the passages above.
About the DNA issue | 1:46 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
To Anonymous regarding the DNA evidence. Your premise is incorrect. DNA
markers from Isrealite heritage would follow ALL ancestors - including European
Jews and (if the Book of Mormon was true)Native Americans.
My education is in molecular biology, but it really doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. DNA tags are "tattoed" you might say - for thousands of years. If the Native Americans tested - as many were from Alaska to the tip of South America - had ANY lineage to ANYONE of Isrealite or middle-eastern descent, the markers would have been easily found. They were not there. This is not because they were "dilluted" - it is only because they do not exist.
No Native Americans are descendants of any Isrealite tribe - and there is no way to get around the evidence that supports this fact. You can ignore it, re-frame it, or change the subject....but you cannot refute it.
I remember in the mid 1970's many people claimed that we didn't really land someone on the moon - despite evidence to the contrary. Many today believe there was no "Holocaust" - despite the evidence. Sometimes people just believe things - despite the evidence.
My education is in molecular biology, but it really doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. DNA tags are "tattoed" you might say - for thousands of years. If the Native Americans tested - as many were from Alaska to the tip of South America - had ANY lineage to ANYONE of Isrealite or middle-eastern descent, the markers would have been easily found. They were not there. This is not because they were "dilluted" - it is only because they do not exist.
No Native Americans are descendants of any Isrealite tribe - and there is no way to get around the evidence that supports this fact. You can ignore it, re-frame it, or change the subject....but you cannot refute it.
I remember in the mid 1970's many people claimed that we didn't really land someone on the moon - despite evidence to the contrary. Many today believe there was no "Holocaust" - despite the evidence. Sometimes people just believe things - despite the evidence.
Arm of Orion | 1:48 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
More truth you my friend are misinformed there are several witnesses who have
actually handled the gold plates. None of which have retracted that they have
handled them. Also, what atheist historian believes in the resurrection of Jesus
last I checked that would make them a theist. Verify your sources.
Biblical truths how arrogant are we to imply that one person or another is going to Hell. How arrogant are we to assume that. How cruel would our God have to be to send a group of people down into that fiery furnace that is promised for the sinners because they do not espouse to that fractured house known as Christianity.
Biblical truths how arrogant are we to imply that one person or another is going to Hell. How arrogant are we to assume that. How cruel would our God have to be to send a group of people down into that fiery furnace that is promised for the sinners because they do not espouse to that fractured house known as Christianity.
Done it!!!! | 1:55 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
New Testament | 12:50 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
If each religion worships their own Jesus, then it's pretty clear that someone is wrong. Jesus didn't say "I am a way..." or "Someone a lot like me is the way.."
Different Jesus = different results.
The Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are not the same. Read the source materials and decide."
Why didn't Jesus say nobody comes to me except through me?
Yes our Jesus is Jesus...Not some 3 in 1 ... 1 in 3 sunstanceless spirit. In fact we believe in the Father and the HG also. Just like the BIBLE says we should! We believe we should be perfect, and become 'one like' the Father and Son...Are we to believe that we become "one like" the Hindus do with their God in Nirvahna?
Their beliefs Biblical? More than TCs?
Is Jesus schiztophrenic? He would be today if he preached he was Father/Son/HG!
We believe JESUS when he said he was SENT by the FATHER, and that the HG testifies of the FATHER and the SON.
"Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."
If each religion worships their own Jesus, then it's pretty clear that someone is wrong. Jesus didn't say "I am a way..." or "Someone a lot like me is the way.."
Different Jesus = different results.
The Mormon Jesus and the Christian Jesus are not the same. Read the source materials and decide."
Why didn't Jesus say nobody comes to me except through me?
Yes our Jesus is Jesus...Not some 3 in 1 ... 1 in 3 sunstanceless spirit. In fact we believe in the Father and the HG also. Just like the BIBLE says we should! We believe we should be perfect, and become 'one like' the Father and Son...Are we to believe that we become "one like" the Hindus do with their God in Nirvahna?
Their beliefs Biblical? More than TCs?
Is Jesus schiztophrenic? He would be today if he preached he was Father/Son/HG!
We believe JESUS when he said he was SENT by the FATHER, and that the HG testifies of the FATHER and the SON.
Good news!!!!True Gospel! | 2:09 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Anonymous | 1:19 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"I can't praise a deity who sends people to eternal misery just because they didn't know what was right, or because they were too young to know what they were supposed to believe and do."
God the Father's plan works!!!
LDS doctrine is that everyone get's the chance to hear and decide if they want to accept the gospel no matter when or where they lived or what they believed when they lived!
Everyone is ressurected because of Jesus being ressurected...Overcoming the fall for everyone!
Jesus is the Saviour of the world...Especially those that believe!
"I can't praise a deity who sends people to eternal misery just because they didn't know what was right, or because they were too young to know what they were supposed to believe and do."
God the Father's plan works!!!
LDS doctrine is that everyone get's the chance to hear and decide if they want to accept the gospel no matter when or where they lived or what they believed when they lived!
Everyone is ressurected because of Jesus being ressurected...Overcoming the fall for everyone!
Jesus is the Saviour of the world...Especially those that believe!
Jon Shurtleff | 2:17 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Joseph Smith is 'alleged' to have a shady past. Honest evaluation of
the primary historical documents shows, however, that nearly all this supposed
shadiness was concocted by his enemies, which were many. One obvious example is
the fact that Joseph was taken to court on a variety of charges more than 40
times and was acquitted every time. It is also simply untrue that there were no
other witnesses. Obviously only Joseph was present for the First Vision and the
visits of Moroni, but there were at least 12 other people who saw the plates. 3
were shown them by an Angel. None of these people ever denied what they had
seen even when they later left the Church and had incentive to do so. There
were also many other events, including appearances of angels, ancient prophets
and the Lord himself which were witnessed by many. This is all well documented.
There are also countless accounts of lesser manifestations which guided people
seeking the truth of confirmation of it in various ways. These continue to this
day. If you think that the testimony of Joseph Smith hangs entirely on Joseph
you are sadly misinformed.
To: talk about take away | 2:20 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
You misunderstand the Christian idea of the Trinity. While "Trinity"
is not in the Bible, it is used to describe what the Bible clearly says in
describing the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
One God in three persons. It can be difficult to wrap your mind around, but remember - we're talking about God here - not some human being. Our finite minds cannot fully comprehend the infinite. God has no such limitations.
As to "We're headed, if we remain worthy, to the Celestial kingdom" - that's not Biblical. Did the man on the cross next to Jesus remain worthy? No - but he went with Jesus to paradise (a translation for heaven). Why? Faith and faith alone.
Salvation is through faith in Christ alone - not of works. This frustrates many people because we want to have a role in our salvation, but this cannot be the case. It is God alone by His gift of grace to all those who have faith in Christ.
"God made Him (Jesus Christ) who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God" (II Corinthians 5:21).
One God in three persons. It can be difficult to wrap your mind around, but remember - we're talking about God here - not some human being. Our finite minds cannot fully comprehend the infinite. God has no such limitations.
As to "We're headed, if we remain worthy, to the Celestial kingdom" - that's not Biblical. Did the man on the cross next to Jesus remain worthy? No - but he went with Jesus to paradise (a translation for heaven). Why? Faith and faith alone.
Salvation is through faith in Christ alone - not of works. This frustrates many people because we want to have a role in our salvation, but this cannot be the case. It is God alone by His gift of grace to all those who have faith in Christ.
"God made Him (Jesus Christ) who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God" (II Corinthians 5:21).
Jon Shurtleff | 2:24 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
To Anonymous:
'I can't praise a deity who sends people to eternal misery ...' I hope you're not referring to Mormon doctrine. If so, this is absolutely false. On my mission to Southern Germany, I had the harrowing experience of teaching a middle aged woman in a town which was almost entirely Catholic. Many years after the fact, she could still hardly contain her emotions over the fact that a premature baby she had had which died before being baptized was burie with another body with being named because, she was told, it was automatically damned. LDS doctrine, on the other hand provides that children born before the age of accountability are saved in the Celestial kingdom and that *everyone* is going to have every possible chance to accept the full truth either here or in the afterlife. In the final 'judgement' all the conditions of each indivual's life will also be fully taken into account. We are warned that 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first' and there there will be a lot of surprises about who ends up where.
'I can't praise a deity who sends people to eternal misery ...' I hope you're not referring to Mormon doctrine. If so, this is absolutely false. On my mission to Southern Germany, I had the harrowing experience of teaching a middle aged woman in a town which was almost entirely Catholic. Many years after the fact, she could still hardly contain her emotions over the fact that a premature baby she had had which died before being baptized was burie with another body with being named because, she was told, it was automatically damned. LDS doctrine, on the other hand provides that children born before the age of accountability are saved in the Celestial kingdom and that *everyone* is going to have every possible chance to accept the full truth either here or in the afterlife. In the final 'judgement' all the conditions of each indivual's life will also be fully taken into account. We are warned that 'the first shall be last and the last shall be first' and there there will be a lot of surprises about who ends up where.
"Celestial Kingdom" | 2:46 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
I'm curious about the use of the term "Celestial Kingdom" in lieu
of "Heaven". Is this to distinguish Mormon teaching from Biblical
teaching?
It seems that if Mormons want to be seen as Christian by Christians, they would adopt as much of the Christian language and culture as possible.
It seems that if Mormons want to be seen as Christian by Christians, they would adopt as much of the Christian language and culture as possible.
To Jon | 3:00 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Re: your "harrowing experience " sounds truly horrible. So much
needless suffering over a gross mis-interpretation of the Bible.
The Bible is clear - salvation does not require baptism. Baptism serves only as a public testimony of our faith; an act simulating Christ's death (going under the water) and risen life (coming out of the water). It is through baptism that we tell the world we are His.
God is a God of mercy and justice - He will do the right thing always. Scripture points to the fact that those who go to hell are those who reject Him.
The Bible is clear - salvation does not require baptism. Baptism serves only as a public testimony of our faith; an act simulating Christ's death (going under the water) and risen life (coming out of the water). It is through baptism that we tell the world we are His.
God is a God of mercy and justice - He will do the right thing always. Scripture points to the fact that those who go to hell are those who reject Him.
Since you don't | 3:01 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
About the DNA issue | 1:46 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007 "No Native Americans are
descendants of any Isrealite tribe - and there is no way to get around the
evidence that supports this fact. You can ignore it, re-frame it, or change the
subject....but you cannot refute it."
Even the DNA scientists believe we all decended from the same parents(Lucy the missing link?).
She lived in Africa close to ME?
You found her markers in the study that was done?
Spainiards found evidence of ME(Christianity!) influence in the religions of the Americas....
Decalougue(Ten Commandments)Stone in Hebrew...
You will dismiss this evidence because it doesn't fit into the simple view that people only came across the Siberian Land Bridge.
I'm curious if you are TC...Because the DNA disproves the Bible too...
Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
I remember being told in the 1970s by scientists that we were having another ICE AGE!
Even the DNA scientists believe we all decended from the same parents(Lucy the missing link?).
She lived in Africa close to ME?
You found her markers in the study that was done?
Spainiards found evidence of ME(Christianity!) influence in the religions of the Americas....
Decalougue(Ten Commandments)Stone in Hebrew...
You will dismiss this evidence because it doesn't fit into the simple view that people only came across the Siberian Land Bridge.
I'm curious if you are TC...Because the DNA disproves the Bible too...
Isaiah 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;
I remember being told in the 1970s by scientists that we were having another ICE AGE!
NO | 3:26 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
"Celestial Kingdom" | 2:46 p.m. Dec. 11, 2007
Paul was caught up to third heaven....talks of Celestials bodies and terrestial in corinthians...
Jesus talks of many mansions...
Of course gracers want to believe in only one reward...It fits well into the concept that man is not literally a son of God...not heirs like Jesus...a lesser salvation...We're just going to be angels playing harps for eternity...
Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This not only refers to Jesus but to heirs of salvation.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The same is said of man! What's Jesus's afterlife like?
BTW-Jesus was made a little lower than the angels?
How can the Almighty Triune GOD be made a little lower than angels? Who watching the store?
Paul was caught up to third heaven....talks of Celestials bodies and terrestial in corinthians...
Jesus talks of many mansions...
Of course gracers want to believe in only one reward...It fits well into the concept that man is not literally a son of God...not heirs like Jesus...a lesser salvation...We're just going to be angels playing harps for eternity...
Hebrews 1: 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
This not only refers to Jesus but to heirs of salvation.
Hebrews 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.
The same is said of man! What's Jesus's afterlife like?
BTW-Jesus was made a little lower than the angels?
How can the Almighty Triune GOD be made a little lower than angels? Who watching the store?
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1 Kings 8:60 (King James Version)
60That all the people of the earth may know that the LORD [Jehovah] is God [Elohim], and that there is none else.
Thus Jesus is God.
Deuteronomy 4:35(King James Version)
35Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim]; there is none else beside him.
Thus Jesus is God
Deuteronomy 4:39 (King James Version)
39Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD [Jehovah] he is God [Elohim] in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else
Thus Jesus is God