Deseret News | Reader comments: An alternative to vouchers in the works?

Reader comments
An alternative to vouchers in the works?

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Janey | 12:53 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Watch carefully as this emerges from behind the bushes. They tried to take our taxes out the front door and now they are looking into taking them out the back door.

stu | 3:53 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I guess a "NO" from the voters does not really mean "no" to people in high places and rich people! This just radifies how these people think. "I can do it anyway, so there".

Bob G | 4:11 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

These legislators better take another look at what this past vote said about the public education system in Utah. Almost half the voters are complaining that the education system in Utah is not working and seeking other means of getting an education for thier children. Legislators can not deny that just because the voucher system did not pass this time does not mean a future effort may get more positive results. The majority vote shot down the vouchers but the minority vote also made a statement, Utah's education system is failing to educate the children. Their own statictics prove this fact. Any legislator fool enough to ignore the minority, a large minority, better take another look at this issue. It's not the money, it's the poor quality of education from the system people are tired of paying for. The legislators still need to fix the fraud, waste, and abuse of education funds and if they refuse to fix it then people are going to look for other ways to get around the corrupted system in Utah education. They want their children educated, they are not after the money, only want what they are being taxed for, an educated graduate.

Comments continue below

Utah Voter | 4:12 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

"Still, in last week's election, 'the public said they did not want any kind of private school actions on dealing with student growth,' Valentine said."

There were many people who voted against Ref #1. I know many who were voting against the specific voucher program and not vouchers in general.

only a few will benefit | 5:36 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

368 were granted scholorships (WOW !!! that took alot of burden off of our schools) ... The rich or well to do are just going to find anyway possible for us hard working , barely getting by , live pay check to pay check , common folks to pay for their education ...

Be very clear their are only a few who will reap the benefits of the tax write offs or vouchers or business grants !!!

James | 5:37 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Your taxes?! These are clearly someone elses taxes. We are really get at the root of the voucher opposition: They seem to feel they own everyone's wallet and in the good, big brother sense are entitled to tell everyone what they can do with everyone elses money.

For all of you anti-voucher people who say you are not opposed to private schools, just don't make you pay for them, kindof smokes out your misrepresentation doesn't it. Now we are talking about a tax credit, translation, they just don't pay taxes on what they spend on private school tuition, and they don't even get a complete break. They still pay taxes on some of it.

Brett Pitts | 5:46 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

It is amazing that folks like Janey are unwilling to fix what could be called a flat tire, i.e. our education system. It is an antiquated system people. Why stick with something created two centuries ago?

stumblefall | 6:53 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Sorry, Janey, but they aren't "your taxes". Just because you steal something from me doesn't make it yours. Anyone want to guess why the legislature tried vouchers in 2007 but are making 2008 about "working within the public education system, not outside of it"? Can anybody spell "re-election"? The voucher bill was awful, but that doesn't change the fact that our public education system is woefully unprepared for the influx of students. And somehow they have the unmitigated gall to act surprised when there are more students than they predicted! Here's a suggestion: when you're trying to estimate the future school population, try talking to the city planners in your school district and asking them how many new homes are going up. But when you're running the state's largest monopoly, why bother?

Thomas W. Clay | 6:54 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I supported bouchers.

But, I agree with Janey. ALWAYS watch what the Legislature does.

I'm 4 Flat Tax | 6:56 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Let's just have a flat tax the only fair tax system!

Do away with No Deductions we would have plenty for schools.

I'm sick of the rich not paying their fare share!
A flat tax is the fair way!

trust me | 7:01 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If the predominant faith and republicans to boot want something passed it will be passed. It won't stop until they get their way one way or the other.

Just a thought | 7:30 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Instead of just offering a tax credit for corporations who donate to scholarships for private schools, how about tax credits are offered to corporations who donate to public school funds as well?

Gretzky | 7:36 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

While i didn't support vouchers this go around due to loopholes and the GUV's lie about reducing class size, it is a free market economy and folks should be able to take some of their dollars and move them to where they feel best for their child IF the education meets a minimum standard that society agrees prepares our young people for the future. As far as tax deductions for businesses, we have to be careful as folks can create their own business on paper and funnel all their tax liability into this as stated in the article. at the same time EVERYONE in society has the responsibility to educate the masses (our society's children) in a way that improves society. teachers need better pay via performance incentives as happens in most other industries now. better teachers are rewarded, better teaching occurs, better prepared students should be the result. we have to be careful that the "rich (don't) get richer while the poor get the picture when they're down so low" as said so nicely by Midnight Oil's Peter Garrett. unfortunately,
in the end, vouchers may just be one more step toward societal hierarchal stratification between the haves/havenots.

Vote them out | 7:37 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I'm a republican and I just want the legislators to take notice. I will not vote for any legislator that tries in any way to go against public education.

Your reign of "power" is over. The public has spoken. Start doing what you are told to do instead of what you want to do.

You work for us. Start acting like it!

Concerned in Ohio | 8:18 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If the money is used for education, it's not being "taken" from anywhere except the UEA. From my perspective, that's not necessarily a bad thing. The UEA, whether you like Utah's public education or not, has become the most brazen and powerful lobby in the state. It has been that way for decades. I know personally of individuals they lobbied out of office because they suggested a policy that the UEA didn't like. The voucher debacle is a good example of the UEA's hegimony. They weren't even going to lose money, but someone else was going to be given money (and, consequently, power). If the UEA wants to maintain its strangle hold on education in Utah, it certainly couldn't tolerate competition. There may be other sensible education reforms in the pike, but if any share power, or money, with a non-UEA entity, you can be certain that it will lose. It's a real travesty that the citizens of Utah are powerless to reign in this lobby behemoth - funded, ironically, by our own taxes.

what is this? | 8:21 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Is the voucher option for just the rich and holier than though? Offering more options for snobs is creating social classes, isn't it?

VOR | 8:31 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If funding private schools was a real reform more Utahns would be for it. What it really is is taking taxes to pay for a secound school district that is unregulated.
Patrick Byrne should have spent his money for the scholarships that went lacking if he really cared.

it's a DONATION | 9:05 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If I get to say where my tax money goes & what it's used for, sure! what's the problem??

Red State Millionaire! | 9:09 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I sure hope we can spend another $8 million dollars arguing about it and be subjected to another statewide "IQ test". I need more arrogance to go with my bitterness.

hmmm | 9:21 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Who are they helping?? figure $1,800 x 368 comes to $662,400 where did the spend the rest of the 2 million they have "begged" for????

Please | 9:22 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

This has nothing to do with taxes, just people trying to figure out a way to fix a poor public education system. Smart, ambitious people trying make a bad situation better. They don't want your tax dollars, they don't need them.

JotaB | 9:23 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Having this non agenda item even discussed during the limited time available was wrong. It just shows again the lengths that some legislators will go to in promoting these schemes.

They didn't even have time to take public comment on proposed legislation but had time for this. Unbelievable.

Homer S. | 9:27 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Why do these pro-voucher groups hate public school so bad? Why don't they try and fix the actual public school? Instead they think our tax money should go to elite private schools.

Here is an easy way to fix the problem. Limit the tax deductions for children to 2 kids. I don't mind paying a little more because I am putting 4 kids in public school. It seems to me the Republican legislature should like a tax that is a pay what you use. It is almost welfare to allow families with 6 or more kids to have tax deductions the allows them to pay no state income tax, all of which goes to our public schools.

RMW | 10:05 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

This proposal is even worse than the "voucher" one. The voucher costs would have come from the "general fund". This would divert money directly from income taxes which are earmarked exclusively for public and higher education.

Just another "voucher bill" in disguise. I don't know why some Utahns want so badly to divert money from the poorest educational system in the county in order to supplement mainly wealthy religious private schools.

Where's mine? | 10:26 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Tuition Tax Credits is another form of vouchers. Since I have never used Utah's public education system, having been educated elsewhere (in public schools), I want a voucher or credit. For more than 40 years I have paid income tax, which supports schools, and I have paid property taxes that also go to schools. I have been happy to do so, but I think I should now get credit. I will, however, be happy to give up that credit if someone will support a plan that does not reward those people who use the education system to excess with an almost zero income tax obligation, especi9ally those who can't be bothered with proper parenting.

LGU | 10:55 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I get really tired of listening to people who say our educational system has failed. Who of these people really know and where do they get their information? As a school employee for 30 years, I have seen wonderful work being done in behalf of our children. If you are going to bad-mouth the system which, by the way, is in a constant state of improvement and works to provide the best educational experience for our children, at least get your facts straight. Utah is consistantly a leader in national testing scores. We have a lower drop-out rate than the national average. More of our students go on to college than the National average. In fine, we are doing a good job.
Spend some time and see what ties these people crying for reform have to private and charter schools. Fully one-third of our legislature has their hands in these projects in one way or another. They are either land developers, builders or people running the schools. Why do you think that they want to push for a move away from public schools? You're right. It lines their pockets.
Get the facts before you start complaining.
More Parent involvement helps.

Concerned in Ohio? | 10:57 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Why is someone in Ohio concerned?

Only someone not in Utah would suggest the UEA has any power at all. It is the most powerless "union" I have ever seen.

If they had any power at all, the teachers of Utah wouldn't be in such a mess.

bob | 11:02 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Beware of the folks on the hill. They had their little egos damaged with the voucher vote and will do anything to get what they want. Look closely at the best Leg that money can buy and vote them out before they can do more damage. They dont represent us but the people who are their buddies with money. As to my tax dollars. I dont have kids in public schools and I dont see why if you get to opt out why I cant. If you want to have kids you should be able to raise them without a handout to do it.

denn034 | 11:03 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Reforms are needed in the schools for sure. I'm willing to listen to this proposal before dismissing it outright.

no | 11:14 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

We voted "NO" so stop the maddness. Take 2 million people in Utah that are paying taxes, and figure out where all of that money is going. Why would we give money to the private school system, when our public system is hurting? Seriously does anyone really know where your tax dollars are going? Huntsman wanted to give the teachers a raise, that was a joke. The education board and the administrators make the money first and then it trickles down to your teachers. It is a crime.

Schools aren't broken | 11:27 a.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Most of the people that want to claim that schools are "broken" haven't set foot in one since they dropped out of the 9th grade.

Look around you and talk with the kids in your neighborhood. you will find that they are taking Algebra in 7th grade that you didn't take until high school.

They are learning science in 7th grade that you didn't learn until college.

They are playing music better than many adults still do.

The schools aren't broken at all. Just the funding for them is.

Dump Democracy | 12:19 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Hey Brett Pitts, based on your argument we should throw out our form of democracy too. After all, it's over 200 years old now.

Bill VL | 12:20 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If the writing in these posts is indicitive of what Utah public schools produce, then the system is broken beyond repair and needs to be replaced.

N. Ethics | 12:26 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

These people sure are putting forth a lot of effort to secure welfare for the rich and middle class. The public has spoken- if the rich and middle class want to send their children to private schools- which they have the CHOICE to do- they must pay for it themselves. Welfare for private school tuition in not a good use of tax payer funds.

Well, unless I can take my tax money that currently goes toward public education and use it to pay or subsidize the cost of an MBA program for myself. Then we can talk!!

Anonymous | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

You of the hear no evil, see no evil, must somehow recognize that there are a large number of children that will never get a good education in the public school system. You can argue all you want about the "evils" of vouchers or of private schools, or anything else; but the hard fact is this: some children do poorly in the public schools, and the public schools basically don't care, it's a get them in (get the money), get them out (graduate them anyway you can), and get more students in (more money). If the anti-voucher crowd cared at all about these "left-behind" students, they would have told the NEA to take a hike, and taken a serious look at vouchers and the good they do.

to concerned in Ohio | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

What? Where do you get your information. The UEA is funded by teacher dues. If they are such a huge organization with a strangle hold on Utah government, please explain why more than half of the education community in Utah do not even belong to the association. If it were as all-powerful as you state, teachers would be paid at a level equal to techers in the rest of the country. Currently teacher salaries in Utah are in 48th place. This means that teachers in 47 of the 50 states get paid better than teachers in Utah.
By the way, check to policies and the people who were "lobied out of office" by the UEA. I think you have been fed a bill of goods by someone who doesn't know what they are talking about as it appears you don't.

John S. Harvey | 12:51 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Tax *credits* will cost the State more than the voucher program would have. A credit is a dollar for dollar reduction in tax liability. A tax *deduction* only gives a percentage subsidy, BUT it will give the largest percentage subsidy to the wealthiest tax payers who use it.

Either way it diverts tax dollars from public uses to private uses. It might also fund strange schools that teach "wacko" dogma instead of acceptable peer reviewed subjects. "Islamo" terrorist feeder schools, polygamy feeder schools, Mormon Fundamentalist "culture" schools, Catholic schools, Strict Constitutional Constructionists schools, the list could go on forever, because those who dislike society in general are the ones who most want to have a state subsidized school to brain wash their children.

Utah needs to significantly raise taxes and pay for a quality educational system to serve *all* students.

John S. Harvey

Dale | 1:02 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Brett Pitts says:

"Why stick with something created two centuries ago?"

Um, you mean something like the Constitution of the United States?

Referendum 1 2008 | 1:12 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Do you support or oppose tuition tax credits for the rich?

Neal | 1:16 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

There is nothing complex about the proposal. People want to give public money to private schools, without making the private schools responsible to meet state guidelines.

If you take the tax credit out of the equation, this is a fine proposal. Just keep private schools private. Let the market work. Use all your persuasive powers to convince business to invest in private schools.

Nevertheless, remember that it is extremely important to work to remove Valentine and Clark from the state legislature. They act like miniature dictators who have no interest in representing the people. Throw the bums out.

LOL Referendum 1 2008 | 1:36 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Too true!

Not this again | 2:08 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Pay for your own kids to go to private school, if that's where you want them to go. I think it's great you have such a high regard for the private school system. I belong to a private country club maybe I could get some of you to pay for that?.

Bobaloo | 2:14 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

If the kids that were already in private school and any in those families to come were not allowed to participate in the rogram that would be a good compromise. Any family that has sent or is sending kids to private school should not be allowed for a 10 or 15 year period after that last child has finished senior year.

The problem is that no one has mentioned that these kids are already out of the system so there is not any relief for the ones who are not in private school. This just takes money away from the public sector.
Do you feel a waiting period would make most of the people that are already paying for their kids education drop the voucher issue? I think most will drop the issue.

Mom in Layton | 3:11 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

People arguing that our schools aren't really failing are pointing to test scores, numbers of graduates and numbers that go on to college.

Those of us who realize that the current system of education is NOT working are focusing instead on the fact that, while kids are being taught to answer questions and fill in little bubbles, they aren't being educated.

Test scores cannot possibly measure the potential or intelligence of a child - simply the fact that from Kindergarten to graduation, the child has been taught how to take tests. THAT is not education.

So, for people who are happy with the "test results = education" format - SURE, plublic education is doing a great job. For those of us who realize that education is more than a test score, the current system is simply unacceptable.

To me, when the state says that they won't accept any plan that "looks outside of public education," it simply means that any plan that changes the status quo and doesn't add to their coffers will be ignored. And so will the education of our children.

Reform | 3:14 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

The people have spoke and said that the fair and equitable solution would be to reform public education, not just build higher walls around the children of the rich.

Please work to reform schools for all for students in Utah (fix public education).

If anyone thinks UEA is strong, please look again. Utah is a right to work state. California has a strong educational union that really handcuffs the legislators. The Union in Utah is very weak. If the Utah legislature comes up with an equitable bill, UEA would be helpless against it.

The past bill was poorley crafted to help the rich. The governor and each legislator that backed it should be voted out of office, for not looking out for the best interest of all of the constituents of the state of Utah.

Even those in favor of vouchers should help rid Utah of these politicians. They were on your side this time, but if they are willing to pass unfair legislation, the next bill might be unfair against you. These are not the people we should have representing us.

James | 3:34 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

To the gentleman who suggested a tax credit for donating to a public school, I would completely support that!

I think that some donations are currently tax deductible. I am not an accountant but I believe that is the case.

The whole concept of an underground market is that people are trying to evade regulation. By removing taxes you create an incentive to spend in that area. In some states they have tax-free holidays to encourage people to do school clothes shopping, etc.

I also agree with a flat tax. I would actually prefer no income tax but instead a healthy sales tax. I know some feel that this would benefit the rich but remember who it is driving those $100,000 family cars around! If they a flat tax on that car, they are paying a proportionate amount to my wonderful $6,000 car.

I think what people are getting at is create more of an equal playing field. I am always for that. I even like the idea of having poor people pay some sort of tax. Just so they appreciate the pain that so called rich "middle class" people pay, such as myself. It is difficult many times.

Do it then | 3:41 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

I reaelly agree that the public school system needs a change. I think that more emphasis needs to be put oon academics and less on some extra curricular activities.

When I see the english that seniors do opposed to the $50,000 plays they put on twice a year, I wonder where the priorities lie. I understand that there are elements of highschool other than in class time that is important, but I think we've lost sight of what is MORE important.

Janey | 3:41 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Pro-voucher people put this barrier in front of their reasoning regarding taxes. It is so clear that these aren't "my" taxes. These are "our" taxes which have been designated for PUBLIC SCHOOLS by our Constitution. This Constitution specifically, irrevocably states that NO tax money is to be spent on private or parochial schools. It's just as plain as day and yet the pro-v's have it in their heads that they should be able to get their hands on it. Well, excuse me for saying this, but they are wrong. These taxes also pay for teachers and the upkeep of public schools, utilities, improvements, technology labs, special education, alternative schools, accelerated learning classes, technology schools, magnet schools, charter schools, and more to try and meet the needs of ALL public school children. These efforts cost money which is hard enough to come by. The pro-v's would take away this needed money to help fund private schools which makes the owners wealthier and gives the parents the perceived notion that their children are getting an elitest, superior education. They are blank when it comes to proving such malarky.

Anonymous | 3:51 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

Why do conservative hate our democratic republic? I wonder what amendment to our constitution do conservatives detest this week? What should I expect from a part who claims to support their war, only to refuse to pay for it?

Hmmm | 5:19 p.m. Nov. 15, 2007

We only have ourselves to blame if we leave these jokers in office. They will follow their own agenda regardless of public opinion because they thing we're too stupid to see what they're doing. This is just another attempt at shortchanging public education. I'm not against building up the private system too but that should be done with private money, not with the taxes that are earmarked for public education. I know, now they'll just change the allocation of taxes. Guys like most of our legislators in Utah county are crooks supported by ultra right-wing groups who think it is their moral obligation to get their "work" done at any cost to the general public. They think they are saving us from ourselves. I think it's time for change. GET TO YOUR CAUCUS MEETINGS next year! That's where the damage is usually irreparably done when these wackos get selected by groups like the Eagle Forum that stack the meetings in happy little places like Orem and Pleasant Grove.

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