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Vouchers appear doomed
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History Teacher | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Yusif Khan,
I would hardly call the Taliban's form of education socialist. Girls were denied education and hidden from public view. Many were beaten or murdered for even speaking to a male who was not their relative or for being unaccompanied in the street. The boys were indoctrinated by religious leaders on the tenets of the Koran, taught male superiority, and how to properly kill a man. The term religious fundamentalism would be more of an apt label.
If vouchers pass we could see Islamic extremist schools being funded by tax dollars in other parts of the country. We should be more worried about different forms of fundamentalism being taught with our tax dollars here in Utah, but we have a unique opportunity of protecting other states from setting up private schools funded by tax payer money that may teach hatred, extremism or other dangerous ideology that would be detrimental to the safety of the United States.
I would hardly call the Taliban's form of education socialist. Girls were denied education and hidden from public view. Many were beaten or murdered for even speaking to a male who was not their relative or for being unaccompanied in the street. The boys were indoctrinated by religious leaders on the tenets of the Koran, taught male superiority, and how to properly kill a man. The term religious fundamentalism would be more of an apt label.
If vouchers pass we could see Islamic extremist schools being funded by tax dollars in other parts of the country. We should be more worried about different forms of fundamentalism being taught with our tax dollars here in Utah, but we have a unique opportunity of protecting other states from setting up private schools funded by tax payer money that may teach hatred, extremism or other dangerous ideology that would be detrimental to the safety of the United States.
LittleAl | 11:33 a.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Last I heard, Utah taxpayers are going to have to invest big buck in new schools
because of ongoing population growth. So, why not encourage private investors
to come up with more of the dough? Think of vouchers as "seed
capital" to shift more of the burden to the private sector.
I'll vote yes.
I'll vote yes.
Comments continue below
DCF | 11:52 a.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Steven Jarvis, you are so wrong.
If you read the Constitution it states that a public education must be provided to all. If they simple excluded some then the voucher would be in violation of that.
Crocodile tears on your behalf. You have done everything you can to kill this. The Utah Foundation is very biased and has completely lost my respect. I will do everything I can to see that it becomes a door mat of Utah policy. How can it ever be trusted now.
If you read the Constitution it states that a public education must be provided to all. If they simple excluded some then the voucher would be in violation of that.
Crocodile tears on your behalf. You have done everything you can to kill this. The Utah Foundation is very biased and has completely lost my respect. I will do everything I can to see that it becomes a door mat of Utah policy. How can it ever be trusted now.
jtm | 11:56 a.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I'd be mad too If I owned a private business and I was going to lose out on
all that free cash. You guys act like the anti voucher people are denying your
kids from going to private schools BS, they are not denied anything.Maybe we
should pay for your private golf membership too.
Wakeup | 12:04 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I loved the flier I received in the mail. Look who supports the idea and who is
against it. The ACLU, the atheists, Everyone against families wants this to
fail.
Wake up Utah and especially the teachers. This will make your job of teaching so much better, it is exactly what you silently hope for. You are just being deceived by the dark side.
Wake up Utah and especially the teachers. This will make your job of teaching so much better, it is exactly what you silently hope for. You are just being deceived by the dark side.
BOO to vouchers | 12:12 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Please go out and vote no on these vouchers. Lets not do ourselves a disservice
here.
Rich | 12:13 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I will vote no, and expect this to be voted down. Nevertheless, I think either
the Guv, or more likely these corrupt little Caesar legislators bankrolled by
the special interests, will find some technical or other excuse to keep this
giveaway going. Utah, and America in general, are beginning to look less and
less like democracies.
Stormstone | 12:32 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Hey, Homer, do you know who the most powerful lobbyist is in the legislature?
And speaking of teachers unions, what could all the underpaid teachers in Utah
have done with the $3 million the NEA poured into this voucher fiasco?
Observation: of the 44 comments here, 24 are for vouchers, 15 are against, and 5 were unknown. Perhaps this is an indication of the problem here in Utah. Not enough people take the time to actually read and research an issue - they just listen to a commercial and believe whatever sounds good to them. Those who favor vouchers are progressive, forward thinking, and are unsatisfied with the status quo.
It took a long, long time for people to believe that washing your hands can prevent illness. I am voting in favor of vouchers, but sadly doubt that the majority of Utahns will step out of the cave.
Observation: of the 44 comments here, 24 are for vouchers, 15 are against, and 5 were unknown. Perhaps this is an indication of the problem here in Utah. Not enough people take the time to actually read and research an issue - they just listen to a commercial and believe whatever sounds good to them. Those who favor vouchers are progressive, forward thinking, and are unsatisfied with the status quo.
It took a long, long time for people to believe that washing your hands can prevent illness. I am voting in favor of vouchers, but sadly doubt that the majority of Utahns will step out of the cave.
wrz | 12:34 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
"This thing was nearly law before education unions intervened and started
pouring mad money into propaganda campaigns." - Special Interests
This thing was nearly law before we the people realized that it was nothing more than a subsidy for the wealthy who send their kids to private, exclusive schools.
This thing was nearly law before we the people realized that it was nothing more than a subsidy for the wealthy who send their kids to private, exclusive schools.
Vouchers for the lazy | 12:44 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
If a private education is so important to these parents, make the sacrifice and
pay for it on your own. It is a ridiculous notion that I should have to pay for
your child's priviledged education. I attended Utah public schools and I
ended up OK. I worked on Wall Street and went to a top business school.
Also, I have no idea why this should be a Republican or Mormon issue. We are talking about using tax-payer money to subsidize private enterprises. Someone please explain how that fits into Republican principles or Mormon theology.
Also, I have no idea why this should be a Republican or Mormon issue. We are talking about using tax-payer money to subsidize private enterprises. Someone please explain how that fits into Republican principles or Mormon theology.
gary | 12:54 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
One thing I am getting sick of is pro voucher people imploring us to just read
the bill and to inform ourselves, and, that when we "educate"
ourselves, we will all see the wonderful sunshiney benefits of vouchers. Well,
people, I for one, have read the bill, I am very informed about vouchers, and I
have come tothe conclusion that it is still a extremely flawed bill. Remember,
no matter if the money comes out of the general fund, it is still our tax money.
If we can find money to fund vouchers out of the general fund, we can certainly
direct more resources to the public schools. One thing that I have yet to figure
out is how a new private school, the Curtis Bramble/John Valentine High School
of Ethical Thoughts and Actions going to make the public system stronger? In
reality, it will just further erode public schools. The anti voucher camp
isn't buying the bleeding heart "it's for the kids"
arguement. It is all about money, and someone intent on lining their pockets at
the expense of the taxpayers. I am a Republican, and I will be voting NO.
YouCan'tSpellMoroniWithoutMoron | 1:07 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Be sure to also vote against any candidate who helped perpetuate this
unconstitutional law on the citizens of Utah.
Dave | 1:09 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
The vouchers lose because too many teachers in too many schools have brainwashed
too many parents about the issues. Absolutely get our tax dollars supporting
private schools. They deliver education at a third the cost per child. They do
everything better except insure that there will be at least ten 200 plus pound
linemen on every high school varsity football team. No more big schools. No more
too big classrooms. No more inefficient educational systems. Bring the costs
down. Get the government out of education. Bring back competition. Let the rich
kids get $500.00. For heavens sakes, their parents are paying for about four or
five kids to go to school anyway, what's wrong with a $500.00 rebate on a
thirty thousand dollar investment in public schools.
Just an observation | 1:37 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
To those of you so malicously against those evil members of the legislature, why
don't you get off your behind and try to do it? If you are so perfect then
you try to be a parent, spouse, employee, employer, tax payer, and legislator
all at the same time.
These people sacrifice their talents and certainly time with their families in an attempt to serve the public. It's definitely not for the $$ or rubber chicken dinners. There are some that are outspoken a few that hold most of the power and maybe even a few that are corrupt but this is the system we have, which is the best in the world.
You can be for or against vouchers but to stoop to name calling based on stories you've read in the newspapers is pathetic.
If you have a problem with them, educate yourself, talk to the person you have a problem with, then if you still disagree, get up and do something about it. They all did.
It's easy to be critical and malicious, not so easy to get up and act.
Shame on you!
These people sacrifice their talents and certainly time with their families in an attempt to serve the public. It's definitely not for the $$ or rubber chicken dinners. There are some that are outspoken a few that hold most of the power and maybe even a few that are corrupt but this is the system we have, which is the best in the world.
You can be for or against vouchers but to stoop to name calling based on stories you've read in the newspapers is pathetic.
If you have a problem with them, educate yourself, talk to the person you have a problem with, then if you still disagree, get up and do something about it. They all did.
It's easy to be critical and malicious, not so easy to get up and act.
Shame on you!
Anti-union, anti-voucher bill | 1:57 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I am anti-union and anti- voucher. I teach in Utah and despise the hatred spewed
by the ignorant and arrogant left and far right who think that anti-voucher
folks are anti-freedom and anti-parental choice. Please explain to me how you do
NOT have a choice in public vs. private education.
I cannot afford to send my son to a private university, but FOUND A WAY. It is called take-on-two extra part-time jobs and make it work. I did not expect the gov't or a church to give me a break.
Vouchers are hand outs and will be used mostly by the rich. Get real people, read the voucher bill. It is weak and Gov. Huntsman and Rob Bishop should be embarrassed to vote for this--but I do realize that money talks. I don't vote a certain way because a union, legislator, or neighbor tells me to. Read the bill--it is a poor proposal and that is why vouchers won't fly here, not because some east coast union opposes it.
The affordable school website is lame. They should have waited until they had something better to post, but they are feeling pressure!
I cannot afford to send my son to a private university, but FOUND A WAY. It is called take-on-two extra part-time jobs and make it work. I did not expect the gov't or a church to give me a break.
Vouchers are hand outs and will be used mostly by the rich. Get real people, read the voucher bill. It is weak and Gov. Huntsman and Rob Bishop should be embarrassed to vote for this--but I do realize that money talks. I don't vote a certain way because a union, legislator, or neighbor tells me to. Read the bill--it is a poor proposal and that is why vouchers won't fly here, not because some east coast union opposes it.
The affordable school website is lame. They should have waited until they had something better to post, but they are feeling pressure!
Moessers | 2:11 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
A good friend, who is a teacher provided me with some good advice. He said he
finds out what the teachers union's position is on any given issue, then
votes the opposite.
Voting NO | 2:15 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
These are the reasons I am voting NO.
1. Vouchers are given to those who meet at least ONE of several criteria. Low income families with children who already attend private schools can be recipients. So, some money will leave public schools without reducing the number of students.
2. The scholarship amounts will be increased in the future by the same percentage as what is made available to public schools.
3. IF a student transfers from a public school, this public school retains a percentage for 5 years - after that - nothing.
So, this bill takes money from public schools now, and in the future. If Utah ever decides to increase funding to public schools, part of the increase will first go to private schools. This bill is not a one-time expense!
Our public schools can better succeed with help from parents at home, and more funding from the state. Let's push for this solution instead.
1. Vouchers are given to those who meet at least ONE of several criteria. Low income families with children who already attend private schools can be recipients. So, some money will leave public schools without reducing the number of students.
2. The scholarship amounts will be increased in the future by the same percentage as what is made available to public schools.
3. IF a student transfers from a public school, this public school retains a percentage for 5 years - after that - nothing.
So, this bill takes money from public schools now, and in the future. If Utah ever decides to increase funding to public schools, part of the increase will first go to private schools. This bill is not a one-time expense!
Our public schools can better succeed with help from parents at home, and more funding from the state. Let's push for this solution instead.
Steven Jarvis | 2:27 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
DCF,
I am not wrong. I never said that public schools have the right to exclude. I have very often said that private schools can exclude a child and that the voucher program's exclusion of being offered to current private school students will lead to lawsuits for discrimination.
Yes I have done a great deal on these message boards to add clarity and truth to the issue, but I doubt I alone killed this. I have a hard time letting the paid bloggers degrade great educators and use dishonest practices in the hope their side will win. But in the end we have more parents opposed to throwing away money at private schools than we have who want the government to pay for their child.
I am not wrong. I never said that public schools have the right to exclude. I have very often said that private schools can exclude a child and that the voucher program's exclusion of being offered to current private school students will lead to lawsuits for discrimination.
Yes I have done a great deal on these message boards to add clarity and truth to the issue, but I doubt I alone killed this. I have a hard time letting the paid bloggers degrade great educators and use dishonest practices in the hope their side will win. But in the end we have more parents opposed to throwing away money at private schools than we have who want the government to pay for their child.
tongue in Cheek | 2:38 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Hey Moessers,
The Union is for children getting quality education. They are for literacy and mathematical fluency. So you oppose those things on principle right?
The Union is for children getting quality education. They are for literacy and mathematical fluency. So you oppose those things on principle right?
AdjustableSpanner | 2:55 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
If you want to destroy private schools, make them dependent on government
money.
Really, private schools are MUCH better off without the government interference that will be a necessary component of vouchers.
Really, private schools are MUCH better off without the government interference that will be a necessary component of vouchers.
Steven Jarvis | 3:10 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Just an observation,
Being a legislator is SO much easier than being a teacher. Until they made so many upset with this fiasco, they had respect, good pay and had a pretty easy job.
Being a legislator is SO much easier than being a teacher. Until they made so many upset with this fiasco, they had respect, good pay and had a pretty easy job.
Plutocratic Choice in Education | 3:48 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
The Parents for Choice in Education (PCE) is desperate to get this referendum
passed so the current law can stand and they can get their foot in the door.
Once in, they will be able to really influence the legislature to enact the law
they truly want: the complete $7500 per pupil funding given to any private
school student AND to allow ANY private school student be eligible (existing
ones as well as new ones).
Just how long do you think it will take the legislature to amend the law? Years? Months? Days?
And if the legislature doesn't, a lawsuit or two will...
Just how long do you think it will take the legislature to amend the law? Years? Months? Days?
And if the legislature doesn't, a lawsuit or two will...
Concerned Citizen | 4:04 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Today I received SIX pro-voucher ads in the mail. Talk about waiting until the
last minute. ?
I would be surprised if private schools even want this voucher bill passed. The whole premise behind "private" schools is to have the freedom and autonomy to function without interference and dictates from governmental agencies. When I read the bill, there is some "accountability" forced upon them from the government. Mind,it's not very much, but I'm sure private school leaders cringe at the thought of any additional interference in their educational system.
From a public education perspective, there is certainly a philosophical reason to oppose vouchers. Using scarce governmental monies to supplement private schools (most of which are religious) doesn't appear right to many (and some even say unconstitutional).
In Utah we already have limited funds for all the many needs in transportation, state government, and public education. To divert some of this money to religious schools when there are so many unfunded needs seems counter-productive.
I will be voting "NO" on vouchers.
I would be surprised if private schools even want this voucher bill passed. The whole premise behind "private" schools is to have the freedom and autonomy to function without interference and dictates from governmental agencies. When I read the bill, there is some "accountability" forced upon them from the government. Mind,it's not very much, but I'm sure private school leaders cringe at the thought of any additional interference in their educational system.
From a public education perspective, there is certainly a philosophical reason to oppose vouchers. Using scarce governmental monies to supplement private schools (most of which are religious) doesn't appear right to many (and some even say unconstitutional).
In Utah we already have limited funds for all the many needs in transportation, state government, and public education. To divert some of this money to religious schools when there are so many unfunded needs seems counter-productive.
I will be voting "NO" on vouchers.
VOTE NO | 4:34 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
ITS RATHER SIMPLE -- VOUCHERS ARE NOT GOOD FOR UTAH.
ANYONE SEE THE RIDICULOUS MAILER TODAY -- EQUATING NON-SUPPORTERS W/ RADICALS? WHAT A JOKE, AND WHAT A LOW.
ANYONE SEE THE RIDICULOUS MAILER TODAY -- EQUATING NON-SUPPORTERS W/ RADICALS? WHAT A JOKE, AND WHAT A LOW.
Union Member | 5:39 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Just a question for some of you. I read that many are voting for the voucher
program because the teachers union is opposed to vouchers. You speak as if a
union is tied directly to the devil himself. Could someone please explain why
belonging to a union is such a sin?
If vouchers are such a great idea couldn't you let them stand on there own merits, and explain to people why they are so great? Its just a thought maybe people would buy into your voucher plan if you would talk about facts not about the union (satan). The union actually has nothing to do with whether the vouchers are a good idea or not.
If vouchers are such a great idea couldn't you let them stand on there own merits, and explain to people why they are so great? Its just a thought maybe people would buy into your voucher plan if you would talk about facts not about the union (satan). The union actually has nothing to do with whether the vouchers are a good idea or not.
TK | 5:40 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Competition is the key to excellence. Right now the Public Schools are the
monopoly with no real incentive to strive for excellence. Vouchers creates an
incentive for ALL of the schools to compete and become better. Just throwing
more money at only Public Schools is less than ingenious. Doing nothing is the
same as signing up right now for increased taxes guaranteed. A vote for
vouchers is a vote for competition and that is a vote for future excellence in
education across the board.
RaNae | 5:41 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
WE need vouchers to give children, whether rich or poor, a choice. If we had
such a srong public school system, why would there be an issue? We need to vote
for vouchers and keep the unions and the poor teachers that are continually
passing students that haven't learned, just to make themselves look good.
Stand up for something Utah. WE need help. If you don't believe me,
listen to the grammar of your news broadcasters. They have no grammar. They
all came out of public schools,
apples and oranges | 6:03 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Competition is the key to excellence. I would agree if the competition was done
on a level playing field. There are restrictions placed on public schools that
are not in place for private schools. Public schools must provide an education
to ALL students. Whether they are special education students, whether they are
disruptive students, they all have a RIGHT to a public education. Private
schools have a RIGHT to deny access to any students they choose based on any
factor they choose. It is pretty hard to compare an apple to an orange. They
are both fruits, but that is about where the similarities end. Much like public
and private schools they both attempt to educate students, and that is about
where the similarity ends.
wrz | 6:12 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Plutocrat, your post hit the nail squarely on the head!!!
"The Parents for Choice in Education (PCE) is desperate to get this referendum passed so the current law can stand and they can get their foot in the door. Once in, they will be able to really influence the legislature to enact the law they truly want: the complete $7500 per pupil funding given to any private school student AND to allow ANY private school student be eligible (existing ones as well as new ones).
Just how long do you think it will take the legislature to amend the law? Years? Months? Days?
And if the legislature doesn't, a lawsuit or two will..."
"The Parents for Choice in Education (PCE) is desperate to get this referendum passed so the current law can stand and they can get their foot in the door. Once in, they will be able to really influence the legislature to enact the law they truly want: the complete $7500 per pupil funding given to any private school student AND to allow ANY private school student be eligible (existing ones as well as new ones).
Just how long do you think it will take the legislature to amend the law? Years? Months? Days?
And if the legislature doesn't, a lawsuit or two will..."
Anonymous | 6:14 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Do we really think that the government is going to give us money to send our
students to private schools and not dictate what can be taught in those private
schools? We want our students to be able to learn religious values in school, to
be taught creationism etc. but we want the government to pay for it. I
don't think on this issue we can have our cake (or cookies) and eat it too.
I haven't heard many comments coming from the private school community.
Maybe by voting for vouchers we are voting for the government to become an even
larger education monopoly.
bob | 6:19 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I sent my kids to private school. I dont know what a poll would say but I found
it to be substandard and over rated. I put my kids back into public school and
that had to caugh up because of their private school experience. By the way I
paid for for it myself and asked no one for a handout.
RAF | 6:20 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
To Steven Jarvis:
Steven, you clearly speak without knowing what you are talking about. I am NOT by any means or definition of the the "elite." I have lived on the west side of Salt Lake City for three decades now. My children went to west side schools. The same west side that Mayor Rocky and other politicians have ignored and dumped on their entire careers.
I am still FOR vouchers. Lawmakers said education would be held harmless by vouchers. It will not lose any money if they pass. THAT is why I say teachers are greedy and protectionist, demanding more and more and more ... taking away a parent's right to see their children educated by another method that might be better for them. Again, lawmakers should tell teachers it isn't going to happen. They won't get any more money by defeating vouchers. Held harmless means exactly that. No more and no less that what they were given in the first place. I dont like greedy politicians and I dont like greedy teachers unions either.
Steven, you clearly speak without knowing what you are talking about. I am NOT by any means or definition of the the "elite." I have lived on the west side of Salt Lake City for three decades now. My children went to west side schools. The same west side that Mayor Rocky and other politicians have ignored and dumped on their entire careers.
I am still FOR vouchers. Lawmakers said education would be held harmless by vouchers. It will not lose any money if they pass. THAT is why I say teachers are greedy and protectionist, demanding more and more and more ... taking away a parent's right to see their children educated by another method that might be better for them. Again, lawmakers should tell teachers it isn't going to happen. They won't get any more money by defeating vouchers. Held harmless means exactly that. No more and no less that what they were given in the first place. I dont like greedy politicians and I dont like greedy teachers unions either.
Question | 7:19 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Who is going to teach in private schools? The same teachers who are teaching in
public schools now. There is not much sense in the idea that instruction will
change much by vouchers. Computer instruction? Maybe. That will come anyway,
though.
Cody | 7:37 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Afre you anti-voucher people awasy tghat over the next 10 years we are expecting
160,000 NEW students into the system, and the only way to pay for that is
MASSIVE tax increases. We already have one of the highest tax burdens of any
state. Vouchers will keep taxes Low.
Steven Jarvis | 7:50 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Raf,
You are still mistaken. When a child is enrolled in a public school the state allocates funds along with federal funds. No child, no funds. That is pretty simple.
Each child costs a different amount as well. The children being taken out of the system are costing the least for the system to educate. We don't see private schools popping up that service the kids that cost the state over 30K yearly to educate do we? Each normal child that is taken out is a net loss to the public schools no matter how you slice it.
And Raf, I never called you elite or an elitist. What I said was you should redirect your anger. It'd be better not to choose anger at all, but that is your choice.
You are still mistaken. When a child is enrolled in a public school the state allocates funds along with federal funds. No child, no funds. That is pretty simple.
Each child costs a different amount as well. The children being taken out of the system are costing the least for the system to educate. We don't see private schools popping up that service the kids that cost the state over 30K yearly to educate do we? Each normal child that is taken out is a net loss to the public schools no matter how you slice it.
And Raf, I never called you elite or an elitist. What I said was you should redirect your anger. It'd be better not to choose anger at all, but that is your choice.
mkirk | 8:03 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
How does anyone get the idea that the majority of those against vouchers are
from the UEA or that the NEA instigated the anti voucher movement. I am a
parent along with thousands of other parents who have donated money and time to
defeat vouchers. The NEA was only willing to match money that came from local
contributions. I am also a Republican who thinks we need to start a coalition
called Republicans for Public Education and take back control of an out of
control legislative leadership who has deserted our school children. We will be
experiencing an enrollment boom which has occurred many times in the past. Much
of that expense will be paid by natural growth by the parents of those children
who are generally new property taxpayers. We also need to look at school impact
fees for new subdivisions. If we are going to have children, we better invest
in their education. Come on over to Murray High where we had 5% of our high
school graduating class graduate with college associate degrees last year. Our
system is not failing!
Steven Jarvis | 8:06 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Cody,
We also will have corresponding growth in the tax paying adults to offset the growth in school children. This isn't the sky is falling that PCE is making it out to be.
Vouchers add additional tax burden not reduce it. Every child in the private school will be getting some share of tax money that we don't presently pay a dime for after thirteen years. The courts may make it happen sooner. PCE arranged the bill to slowly phase in so the costs build over time and it looks like we are saving money. The job even fooled KSL in their truth program and they had to issue a retraction over the error and have had their editorial board come out against the voucher program.
We also will have corresponding growth in the tax paying adults to offset the growth in school children. This isn't the sky is falling that PCE is making it out to be.
Vouchers add additional tax burden not reduce it. Every child in the private school will be getting some share of tax money that we don't presently pay a dime for after thirteen years. The courts may make it happen sooner. PCE arranged the bill to slowly phase in so the costs build over time and it looks like we are saving money. The job even fooled KSL in their truth program and they had to issue a retraction over the error and have had their editorial board come out against the voucher program.
Steven Jarvis is my Hero | 8:07 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Thank you for your honest, patient and polite responses to these Utahnic
posts.
RAF: "Teachers are greedy, demanding more and more"...
Is that why teachers in Utah make sooooooo much money? I get tired of watching them roll into the parking lot with their "entourages" and "bling", driving Escalades and Navigators with the chrome spinners...
DCF: "The constitution states that public education must be provided to all".
United States Constitution doesn't mention education. The Utah Constitution says "The Legislature shall provide for the establishment and maintenance of the state's education systems including: (a) a public education system, which shall be open to all children of the state; and (b) a higher education system",A PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM... Not a private education system...
SAMHILL: " willing to try this experiment". Sam, any experiment with children's lives at stake??? How about following the research and coming up with honest solutions to real problems.
WAKEUP: My favorite... believes that people are voting against vouchers because they are being "decieved by the dark side". GOD IS FOR AND SATAN IS AGAINST VOUCHERS...
Is there anyway to have our legislators and governor to continue this discussion if it does not include perks for the rich?
RAF: "Teachers are greedy, demanding more and more"...
Is that why teachers in Utah make sooooooo much money? I get tired of watching them roll into the parking lot with their "entourages" and "bling", driving Escalades and Navigators with the chrome spinners...
DCF: "The constitution states that public education must be provided to all".
United States Constitution doesn't mention education. The Utah Constitution says "The Legislature shall provide for the establishment and maintenance of the state's education systems including: (a) a public education system, which shall be open to all children of the state; and (b) a higher education system",A PUBLIC EDUCATION SYSTEM... Not a private education system...
SAMHILL: " willing to try this experiment". Sam, any experiment with children's lives at stake??? How about following the research and coming up with honest solutions to real problems.
WAKEUP: My favorite... believes that people are voting against vouchers because they are being "decieved by the dark side". GOD IS FOR AND SATAN IS AGAINST VOUCHERS...
Is there anyway to have our legislators and governor to continue this discussion if it does not include perks for the rich?
annony mous | 8:13 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
This bill gives parents and children a chance to have a choice, a chance to have
options. Many gifted Utah children are not getting the special attention they
need and deserve, because their parents cant afford private school. These
children whether special needs or an advanced child are being left by the
wayside. I dont believe the polls. We will see what happens come election day.
Freedom, Competition and Choice | 8:19 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Can we please STOP using these words to describe vouchers?
That would "imply" that we do not have freedom to go to private schools, or a choice to go there now. We live in a market economy, and anyone who wants to enter the market and compete can.
...and private schools are going to improve the grammer of our newscasters? How???
I'm happy that the intelligence of Utah is shown in the current polling reports and not the posts on this blog.
(DES NEWS, thank you for including the link to the Pro-Voucher website, and thanks to the person who took the time (I'm guessing about 15 minutes) to put it together. I think it is pretty easy to see which side of the issue the DES News is on. --Would it have been so hard with two reporters working on this story to get a quote from someone not pro voucher???)
That would "imply" that we do not have freedom to go to private schools, or a choice to go there now. We live in a market economy, and anyone who wants to enter the market and compete can.
...and private schools are going to improve the grammer of our newscasters? How???
I'm happy that the intelligence of Utah is shown in the current polling reports and not the posts on this blog.
(DES NEWS, thank you for including the link to the Pro-Voucher website, and thanks to the person who took the time (I'm guessing about 15 minutes) to put it together. I think it is pretty easy to see which side of the issue the DES News is on. --Would it have been so hard with two reporters working on this story to get a quote from someone not pro voucher???)
Ronald Reagan's Sprit Lives | 8:54 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
A vote for vouchers is a vote for FREEDOM. For too long the public school
monopoly has not only controlled public education, but has caused a signficant
drop in academic performance over the past 30 plus years. I've heard from
my public school friends..and it is getting worse, not better. The current
system has lost its right, authority, and privilege to control taxpaying
dollars.
We must, for the sake of the Republic, vote for vouchers in Utah to pave the way for the country. That is why the NEA has poured millions into Utah against vouchers.
Forget the money and focus on the American heritage. It is becoming displaced in public schools by poltiical correctness gone amuck, "alternative lifestyles" becoming part of the brainwashing, and simply a lot of dopey stuff being taught..plain and simple.
We must end this now and reverse the tide of paganistic, secular humanistic, and the growing bulge of an uneducated citizeny. If we do not reverse this, we will see socialism within our lifetime.
It is time to look into the soul of America, because we are circling the drain...
Vote For Referendum 1...
We must, for the sake of the Republic, vote for vouchers in Utah to pave the way for the country. That is why the NEA has poured millions into Utah against vouchers.
Forget the money and focus on the American heritage. It is becoming displaced in public schools by poltiical correctness gone amuck, "alternative lifestyles" becoming part of the brainwashing, and simply a lot of dopey stuff being taught..plain and simple.
We must end this now and reverse the tide of paganistic, secular humanistic, and the growing bulge of an uneducated citizeny. If we do not reverse this, we will see socialism within our lifetime.
It is time to look into the soul of America, because we are circling the drain...
Vote For Referendum 1...
American principles lost | 8:54 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Shame on you republicans who vote against vouchers! Since when has a true
republican in principle voted for a bloated government monopoly that performs
grossly inadequately and leaves the American people with no choice but to wallow
in mediocrity. Public school success are magnified and the overwhelming failures
are ignored. Public schools are not in the constitution. Freedom to provide
alternatives is. What happened to the belief in the American people and their
right to make the best choices for their children? Public schools have been
woefully inadequate for my child. She came home crying because she was so bored
and desperately wanted to learn something at 6 years old. No accomodations for
her whatsoever! If AT&T had been allowed to remain a monopoly would we be
enjoying the light years of advancement in communications technology? No. Even
liberals should be ashamed for condemning minority children to an inferior
education. Wake up
before the public school unions drag us into the dirt anymore. The vouchers dont take away money when you add all the pluses and minuses together. Since when has throwing money at a problem ever helped?
before the public school unions drag us into the dirt anymore. The vouchers dont take away money when you add all the pluses and minuses together. Since when has throwing money at a problem ever helped?
Teacher that Cares | 8:55 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
I am a public educator. Born in Utah, public educated in Utah and teaching in
Utah. I am not a member of the union, and don't agree with most of what
they do. But that is irrelevant to the voucher debate. Vouchers will take our
tax dollars to pay for privated citizen choices. That is the entire debate in
summary.
I challenge any member of our state legislature, and any anti-teacher blogger out there, to come to my school on any given day and not only observe the excellent teaching that goes on, but talk to teachers and students. But they won't. They don't want to know what really happens in our schools. They don't want to witness the truth.
Thousands of caring, dedicated teachers devoted to their students. Not for the huge salaries, recognition, or public respect but rather because they believe. They believe they make a difference. In fact, they know they do. And not just with the "rich" kids, the "smart" kids, the "gifted" kids, they make a difference with ALL kids, even the "difficult" kids, the "special education" kids, and the "troubled kids". Do private schools accept these kids? NO! But every day, I do.
I challenge any member of our state legislature, and any anti-teacher blogger out there, to come to my school on any given day and not only observe the excellent teaching that goes on, but talk to teachers and students. But they won't. They don't want to know what really happens in our schools. They don't want to witness the truth.
Thousands of caring, dedicated teachers devoted to their students. Not for the huge salaries, recognition, or public respect but rather because they believe. They believe they make a difference. In fact, they know they do. And not just with the "rich" kids, the "smart" kids, the "gifted" kids, they make a difference with ALL kids, even the "difficult" kids, the "special education" kids, and the "troubled kids". Do private schools accept these kids? NO! But every day, I do.
Hope for my child lost | 8:58 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
My child's needs have been ignored by the public schools. And now all hope
is gone. I cannot afford or manage to take my child to a charter school that is
far away. What am I to do. I am better off going back to my parent hope country
of Cuba, where at least we can give our child a decent education. Sometimes
oppression comes in forms that are not easily recognizable by the masses.
Anonymous | 9:04 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
Teacher that cares,
I'm a teacher and my legislator comes every year and teaches for two full days in my classroom.
Just like all teachers are not great all legislators are not bad.
I'm a teacher and my legislator comes every year and teaches for two full days in my classroom.
Just like all teachers are not great all legislators are not bad.
intelligence | 9:06 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
So the answer is no solution and status quo. How intelligent. Stay with the
failing public schools and shut down alternatives. Why should public school
students receive help and not students for whom public schools does not work?
Answer. Monopoly and power in an institution who we are not allowed to question. Discrimination against poor and minorities who are forced to stay in medicocrity.
Answer. Monopoly and power in an institution who we are not allowed to question. Discrimination against poor and minorities who are forced to stay in medicocrity.
NEA UEA doesn't care | 9:14 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
When I was in Washington DC I discovered that the NEA was sponsoring a
Pro-choice march in terms of a million dollars. What has that got to do about
the public students interest. Nothing. Just like vouchers, anti - vouchers
campaigns is about keeping the monopoly of power within the grasps of our public
schools. I wish parents could see the channel one program that students must
watch every morning in schools across the nation. Biased as can be. Vouchers
would approve public schools, the money comes from the general fund and money is
left in school after the child leaves. I guess children will continue to be
shuttled from grade to grade like cattle and left to make in the world with an
inferior education. Nothing most parents can do about it now. How sad.
Voucher not a handout | 9:18 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
If vouchers are handouts then what do you call all the money all public students
get? What is the difference. With one you get the freedom to choose, with the
other the choices are extremely limited. Yes, ...even in America.
Response | 9:24 p.m. Nov. 3, 2007
No. The answer is family. Read, sing, and play with your child(ren). Eat dinner
with them. Teach them to read and to do good. Do the best that you can. Parents
are the primary teachers. Schools are allies but cannot do it all.
Chile and Milwaukee teach us that vouchers do next to nothing. The solution is not a major structural change. It requires a change in the families.
Chile and Milwaukee teach us that vouchers do next to nothing. The solution is not a major structural change. It requires a change in the families.
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