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George F. Will: Utah voucher war shows progressives need new label
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Manny | 2:26 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Attn: you are wrong. $4,995 is total expenditures divided by total number of
students in public schools. For $7,500 per student to be correct by your
calculations there would need to be about 250,000 students not enrolled in
public schools--there are only about 25,000.
Please, show me any independent source (not Utah Taxpayer Assn.) where you come up with $7,500 spent per student in Utah public schools. I'd love to see it. (Hint, it does not exist, because it's not true.)
"Free"?: I never said anything was "free" to taxpayers. I said transportation was free for students and lunch was free for students who couldn't pay. Both are paid by taxpayers from the $4,995 spent per student.
Please, show me any independent source (not Utah Taxpayer Assn.) where you come up with $7,500 spent per student in Utah public schools. I'd love to see it. (Hint, it does not exist, because it's not true.)
"Free"?: I never said anything was "free" to taxpayers. I said transportation was free for students and lunch was free for students who couldn't pay. Both are paid by taxpayers from the $4,995 spent per student.
Richard | 2:57 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Imagine the following scenario:
1000 new students suddenly move into a new area. The local school district decides that a new school must be built immediately and new teachers hired, etc. Like everywhere else in the state, it will cost about $7500 per student or $7.5M each year to operate the new school.
Now suppose a group of concerned citizens steps forward and says: "We have a group of retired teachers who want to volunteer their time to teach these students. We have a local business that has agreed to donate a building suitable to be used as a school. All we need from the state to make this school operational is some supplemental funding to cover the costs of books, materials, and utilities. Our budget indicates that this will cost $750,000 a year or $1000 per student. If you give us the money, we will provide a quality education for each of the 1000 students and save the taxpayers $6.75 million."
Question: Should the state take this group up on their offer or tell them "no thanks!"?
1000 new students suddenly move into a new area. The local school district decides that a new school must be built immediately and new teachers hired, etc. Like everywhere else in the state, it will cost about $7500 per student or $7.5M each year to operate the new school.
Now suppose a group of concerned citizens steps forward and says: "We have a group of retired teachers who want to volunteer their time to teach these students. We have a local business that has agreed to donate a building suitable to be used as a school. All we need from the state to make this school operational is some supplemental funding to cover the costs of books, materials, and utilities. Our budget indicates that this will cost $750,000 a year or $1000 per student. If you give us the money, we will provide a quality education for each of the 1000 students and save the taxpayers $6.75 million."
Question: Should the state take this group up on their offer or tell them "no thanks!"?
Comments continue below
Slicing and dicing | 2:58 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Manny, the numbers don't matter. Parents should be allowed to decide which
school gets their tuition money, even if it's only a dollar and a half.
We don't force everyone to pay for a McBloat Happy Meal before they lunch at Whole Foods . . .we shouldn't force everyone to pay for junk education before they can make a more healthy selection.
We don't force everyone to pay for a McBloat Happy Meal before they lunch at Whole Foods . . .we shouldn't force everyone to pay for junk education before they can make a more healthy selection.
Anonymous | 3:25 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Will, in his customary far-right tirades is angry because liberals talk about
favoring progress. Progress in an obviously positive word and counters the
Neocons demon word, liberal.
This name-calling and labeling is all the Neocons can come up with today as 75% of American has woken up to what is happening to their country.
This name-calling and labeling is all the Neocons can come up with today as 75% of American has woken up to what is happening to their country.
Manny | 4:08 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
RE: Slicing and dicing, parents already can decide which school gets their
tuition money. They can choose any private school they want.
What parents cannot do is take OUR taxpayer money and do whatever they want with it. Taxpayer money for education is set aside to provide a basic education for all children so society benefits. If parents want something more than the basic education we as taxpayers are willing to provide, they are more than welcome to pay for it. Just don't do it with OUR money.
What parents cannot do is take OUR taxpayer money and do whatever they want with it. Taxpayer money for education is set aside to provide a basic education for all children so society benefits. If parents want something more than the basic education we as taxpayers are willing to provide, they are more than welcome to pay for it. Just don't do it with OUR money.
Anonymous | 4:55 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
If I could make the half the money that Will, Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly
and Coulter make by demonizing the word liberal, I'd be happy.
samhill | 5:13 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
I've always said George Will is one of the most articulate and intelligent
of the many pundits who populate the papers and airwaves. This article is a
good demonstration of his abilities.
Very well stated Will and right on!
Very well stated Will and right on!
YOUR money, Manny? | 6:43 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
It's THEIR money, not YOURS. Why shouldn't they get some of it BACK,
to spend on getting their kids a real education?
wrz | 7:49 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Your Money: "It's THEIR money, not YOURS. Why shouldn't they get
some of it BACK, to spend on getting their kids a real education?"
I agree. With my 3 school kids I can get 9,000 bucks of tax money (3 x $3,000). Hooray! This is several times more in taxes (property, sales, income) than I pay each year. Utah is truly a generous state!
I agree. With my 3 school kids I can get 9,000 bucks of tax money (3 x $3,000). Hooray! This is several times more in taxes (property, sales, income) than I pay each year. Utah is truly a generous state!
Parents taking money, Manny??? | 9:35 p.m. Nov. 1, 2007
Vouchers have nothing to do with parents taking money. That's just part of
the rhetoric to push buttons and create an emotional response.
Since the funds are set up to provide an education for children that benefits society, shouldn't the money follow the child?
By the way, the parent's that are already choosing alternative education are effectively subsidizing the tax base.
Since the funds are set up to provide an education for children that benefits society, shouldn't the money follow the child?
By the way, the parent's that are already choosing alternative education are effectively subsidizing the tax base.
Missing the point | 12:46 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007
Mr. Will, and his ultra conservative, voucher supporting cronies, are missing
the mathmatical point. No surprise. The elementary math and business sense
involved has been overlooked by their narrow minded elitist attitude.
Students carry NO major expense. They never have and never will. Therefore, there is no $7500 savings when a student transfers from public to private school. Vouchers, however, do create an expense that previously didn't exist.
Education expenses come from building construction, maintenance, administration, faculty, supplies (such as books, desks, etc), and utilities. Now add voucher expenses on top of the above fixed expenses and you end up with tax increases. When a student leaves a public school, the school is not saving $7500 because the school never paid a dime to that student. The remaining fixed expenses of construction, administration, etc haven't changed. Even the expense of utilities remain the same. The only possible way to save substantial amounts of money is to close the public school down, and who wants that? Perhaps that's the hope and dream of those elitists. One doesn't have to read between the lines to know that. They've come out, point blank, and stated clearly that the public system has no value.
Students carry NO major expense. They never have and never will. Therefore, there is no $7500 savings when a student transfers from public to private school. Vouchers, however, do create an expense that previously didn't exist.
Education expenses come from building construction, maintenance, administration, faculty, supplies (such as books, desks, etc), and utilities. Now add voucher expenses on top of the above fixed expenses and you end up with tax increases. When a student leaves a public school, the school is not saving $7500 because the school never paid a dime to that student. The remaining fixed expenses of construction, administration, etc haven't changed. Even the expense of utilities remain the same. The only possible way to save substantial amounts of money is to close the public school down, and who wants that? Perhaps that's the hope and dream of those elitists. One doesn't have to read between the lines to know that. They've come out, point blank, and stated clearly that the public system has no value.
Fact or emotional fiction? | 1:11 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007
Selective with the Facts�
Have you ever been to a private school? Are you aware they also have special programs? Some private schools specialize in �special needs� children. More schools would be available to assist more children in need of alternative education, if Ref1 passes.
Free lunch/transportation included? I pay every time my son needs to ride a school bus.
Imagine how much money it would take to �board� all the public school students, so that we can compare those numbers fairly to the �more expensive private schools� you complain were excluded.
�Basic education �can also be provided by private schools. The taxpayers� money will still be funding education. It will just be adding competition, everyone will need to improve.
The future will be better, if all students can acquire the education they personally need. Think about the level of education needed to do well in today�s society. It is better to assist education now, than correct the problems that the quiet child, in the corner of a classroom with 30-40 students, will face in the future.
Stay away from socialism. Vote for competition. Vote for ref1.
wrz... a generous state pays for your children already!
Have you ever been to a private school? Are you aware they also have special programs? Some private schools specialize in �special needs� children. More schools would be available to assist more children in need of alternative education, if Ref1 passes.
Free lunch/transportation included? I pay every time my son needs to ride a school bus.
Imagine how much money it would take to �board� all the public school students, so that we can compare those numbers fairly to the �more expensive private schools� you complain were excluded.
�Basic education �can also be provided by private schools. The taxpayers� money will still be funding education. It will just be adding competition, everyone will need to improve.
The future will be better, if all students can acquire the education they personally need. Think about the level of education needed to do well in today�s society. It is better to assist education now, than correct the problems that the quiet child, in the corner of a classroom with 30-40 students, will face in the future.
Stay away from socialism. Vote for competition. Vote for ref1.
wrz... a generous state pays for your children already!
To missing the point | 1:54 p.m. Nov. 2, 2007
To whom does the administration administer?
To serve whom and for what purpose do they have faculty?
Supplies intended for� students!
The same ones you claim carry �no major expense�! Thanks for pointing out the �fact� we don�t spend any money on our children�s "basic" education.
Think BEFORE you regurgitate the absurd claims being made.
Yes, the utilities will stay the same. The rest is unfounded. If competition exists, change will take place. We have five years �cushion� to make it happen. Perhaps, we will find a way to remove the teachers who still �teach� but can�t be fired. We might find a way to reward the great teachers in the public school system with a well deserved raise. Perhaps, the lack of accountability in the financial administration of schools will change. Perhaps, the money allocated to be spent on students education might actually make it to the intended recipients.
Interesting� free lunch included� does the money in question include the �free �police officer that is present, necessary and assigned to stay at my son�s school for safety? I have never noticed one assigned to stay at a private school in Utah� interesting.
To serve whom and for what purpose do they have faculty?
Supplies intended for� students!
The same ones you claim carry �no major expense�! Thanks for pointing out the �fact� we don�t spend any money on our children�s "basic" education.
Think BEFORE you regurgitate the absurd claims being made.
Yes, the utilities will stay the same. The rest is unfounded. If competition exists, change will take place. We have five years �cushion� to make it happen. Perhaps, we will find a way to remove the teachers who still �teach� but can�t be fired. We might find a way to reward the great teachers in the public school system with a well deserved raise. Perhaps, the lack of accountability in the financial administration of schools will change. Perhaps, the money allocated to be spent on students education might actually make it to the intended recipients.
Interesting� free lunch included� does the money in question include the �free �police officer that is present, necessary and assigned to stay at my son�s school for safety? I have never noticed one assigned to stay at a private school in Utah� interesting.
Who's calling the shots. | 8:23 a.m. Nov. 4, 2007
George Will is part of the neoconservative movement that has successfuly
divided this country
with the demonization and hijacking of words like "liberal" to futher their political agenda. And that agenda is unbridled authoritarianism.
And just who is this authority ---
You or me?
with the demonization and hijacking of words like "liberal" to futher their political agenda. And that agenda is unbridled authoritarianism.
And just who is this authority ---
You or me?
Tyler | 1:06 a.m. Nov. 5, 2007
This is about choice. Parents can choose better than teachers where to send
their own kids. Monopolies don't work. Competition is better. We'll
have more educated kids with a more competitive education system.
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This nonsense never stops and yet these same types think that coming up with new labels to "put the opposition in their place" is somehow a mark of intelligence.
Ridiculous!